"THAT WHICH WAS FROM THE BEGINNING"(2)
“THAT WHICH WAS FROM THE BEGINNING”(2)
JT It may be helpful to point out that, although the apostle begins with what is presented in Christ as Man, yet in coming to the application of the truth, he begins with God. We do not come really to the opening verses in their application to us until chapter 5. He ends up really with what is in his mind in the opening verses, namely, eternal life. In applying the truth he begins with God. I think it is easy to see the order in which the truth is presented. We have to begin with what God is.
FL That is chapter 1, verse 5. “This then is the message which we have heard of him and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all”. 1 John 1:5.
JT I think it helps in the understanding of the epistle to see that in applying the truth the apostle begins with what God is, because the soul has to bow to that before it can apprehend what man is according to God. “That they might know thee, the only true God;” that is the first thing, “the only true God”, and the next is “Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent”. John 17:3. We do not come to that until chapter 5, the earlier chapters are more what God is.
Ques Have you that thought in chapter 1: 7?
JT Verse 5 gives us the message, then the remaining part of the chapter raises the question of consistency in those who professed to have accepted the truth; so it is clearly intimated that the epistle supposes there had been unreality. These “if-we-say’s” raise the question of consistency with the profession made, and the profession has relation to what God is, because clearly that is where the authority lies in regard to [p. 352] our souls.
RSS In fact, what God is is the source of everything we have and are and enjoy. In this epistle God is “light” and “love” and all is in keeping with that.
EJW The first four verses appear to form the introduction, and to set forth the ground and standpoint of the apostles’ testimony, and that in which the Spirit would establish our souls; then verse 5 would seem to be the beginning proper of the epistle, having in view the sad fact that Christianity was being undermined as to its foundations and falsified as to its moral character. To meet this it had become necessary to insist on what God Himself is as being the moral source of Christianity.
JT The opening verses contain what the apostle has in mind to lead us to; that is, the ultimate end in his mind, but the message brings in God in the way of authority over the soul. What is in his mind is to report certain things in order that the joy of the saints might be full; then there was authority, and it was essential that that should be pressed on the souls of the saints.
FL So it raises the question of exercise, very much as in Hebrews 3:6; “whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end”. Things are not taken for granted, but they are tested by what God is.
JT The apostle brings in what God is, but the ultimate end is to bring in also what man is. Christ is the true God and eternal life.
ARS “God is light”. 1 John 1:5. Is not that the key to the epistle? You have Christianity in that way set forth. There is no darkness at all.
JT Christianity is more what Christ is Godward. What God is in the way of light is to adjust things. “Let there be light” Genesis 1:3; that is the first thing but the ultimate thought is to bring in the six days that follow, so that on the sixth day you have man before [p. 353] God. That is the great thing, but evidently everything must work from what God is.
ARS So many people fail to understand John because they try to make their experience tally with what is here. “God is light, and in him is no darkness at all”. 1 John 1:5.
JT That is in the way of adjustment; what the apostle has before him is to bring in what Christ is. It is much less understood. Perhaps we do not understand either side very much, but the idea of God is very much better understood than the idea of Man before God. The opening verses indicate that that is what is in the apostle’s mind; he reported things, that the saints’ joy might be full. Chapter 5 is the witness to what Christ is.
FL When it is a case of working with the individual we get it in John 9: the man is in darkness and the Lord works the works of God. The beginning is light coming in, and then comes adjustment until you get the light of the “Son of God”.
JT That corresponds with chapter 5 of the epistle.
Rem If the darkness is expelled, it is that we might enjoy light.
JT Light makes manifest, and that is what God is. Light becomes the adjusting element; but the thing reached is that you see what man is before God.
ANW Would the ark of the covenant answer to the early part or the latter part in this connection?
JT It would be more the latter, the Son of God. The fathers understand what is from the beginning. We have to begin with light, so “the message” is formally the introduction and application of the truth.
Ques Would you say a word about “little children” and light?
JT Clearly the least developed have the knowledge of God revealed. That is not so far as knowing “him that is from the beginning”. [p. 354] 1 John 2:13.
ARS It says, “God is light” 1 John 1:5; now what about “God is love”? 1 John 4:8.
JT That is the secret of His being light. Light is a relative term; you would not have the word light unless you had darkness. Before sin existed, the idea of light would be unnecessary; it supposes that darkness had come in. God is ever love absolutely.
FL So light is necessarily in view of outshining, and showing existing conditions, and for adjusting things in relation to God. That is the point in Genesis; darkness shrouded everything, then comes light.
JT In Christianity God is Himself that light. The sixth day is the great end reached. Consequent upon the sixth you have the seventh; God has reached His thought in man in His presence; God rests there.
RSS A Man in His image and likeness!
JT That is the end God has in view, and I think that is the end in view with the apostle in writing this epistle.
WHF “God is light, and in him is no darkness at all”. 1 John 1:5. “If we walk in the light, as he is in the light”. 1 John 1:7. Is that God coming out as revealed in Christ? There is no fellowship apart from that.
JT Fellowship is there; it is adjustment. The point now is fellowship with one another, not with God. We are set in relation to one another, and “the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin”. 1 John 1:7. Sin ceases to be a disturbing element on account of the efficacy of the blood of Christ in the conscience.
BTF We get here the first principle for believers; that is, walking with God. For the practical pathway here we are brought into the light, then the blood of Jesus Christ, God’s Son, cleanses us from all sin, and then if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just [p. 355] to forgive.
JT It really condemns the tendency to isolation. There are those who like to walk alone; it is all well to walk alone if sin is in question, but if you walk in the light, you are sure to find the brethren, and you will be with them. It really sets aside the anti-christian principle of going out. They “went out”. Why? The light was there. Judas also “went out” John 13:30; he went out from the light.
BTF I was thinking of it in regard to the chapter we have read; that is, before the gradations are spoken of, there are principles in the end of chapter 1 that enable the believer to walk before God in freedom.
JT That is most important. The application of the truth introduces “the message”, which is that “God is light”, 1 John 1:5 and it becomes an adjusting principle; hence we are set in relation to one another. We ought to be with our brethren. Christian growth is greatly promoted by association with the brethren.
EJW It is a sorrowful thing to consider that the falsification of Christianity had already begun before the apostles passed away. It had already become necessary to safeguard the truth as to what Christianity is morally, by insisting, first of all, on what God Himself is, as being the source of it. If there is any moral discrepancy in God, the same may be allowed in Christianity, but if He is light, and only light, having no part dark, then nothing lower can be accepted for ourselves.
RSS There are two statements here, “God is light”, 1 John 1:5 and “he is in the light”. 1 John 1:7. What is the distinction?
JT I think it is an allusion to Old Testament times, when He was in thick darkness. The light in which He is, is Himself, and it is that in which we are to walk.
RSS Does the latter refer to revelation?
JT Verse 7 refers to revelation; He is come to be known.
RSS [p. 356] But the first is what He is in Himself?
JT Quite; but the suggestion that there is no darkness in Him would arise from one having light and being dark, or partly dark, practically.
EJW It has been said that there are dark spots in the sun; it would appear that the enemy was bringing that into Christianity.
JT I think the attack was that those who professed to have the light were in darkness; that is, they were not in accord with God.
CAM But the darkness has to pass away. Judas went out, and it was dark. It would imply that there was no darkness where the Lord was.
JT Judas went into the darkness, but really he carried an element into the darkness that never had been there before, because he had been in company with Jesus; so that the world that ensues was not the world of the Old Testament. The world of this epistle is that which is influenced by certain ones who have gone out from Christianity. False prophets had gone out into the world, 1 John 4:1.
FL Judas is the expression of that. He carried out from that circle intelligence as to divine Persons, and divine things, and yet he himself was darkness.
JT “If ... the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness?” Matthew 6: 23.
FL Christendom is totally different from heathendom or Judaism. It is man false to the light of God.
ANW You would not use John 3:16 in the present tense?
JT It would be better to keep to the text. The world that then was, in a way centred in Jerusalem. John 12:31 is the result of rejection, “now is the judgment of this world”. John 3:16 had reference to the world as it then was, which God Himself had loved.
FL I connect it with the world after the flood.
[p. 357] God gave the opportunities right up to the rejection of Christ, and then that world is judged and terminated.
JT We have to bear in mind that God had established an order of things at Jerusalem which as yet was not given up. Deuteronomy 32 would show that the order of things established after the flood had Israel in view as a centre. God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.
I think we ought to get into chapter 2, but I think it is important to see the place the light has. It is a matter of adjustment, and the effect of being in the light, or, rather, walking in it, is that you are adjusted in relation to the brethren. We have fellowship; we are bound together under a common influence. We have fellowship, not now with God, nor with Christ or with the apostles, but with each other. That is the great feature of adjustment, and in that fellowship sin ceases to be an intruder. Sin broke up what God had ordained in Genesis 1 and 2; but now, although sin remains in the world, it does not interfere with our fellowship, for the reason that the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses from all sin. Our consciences are quite clear in the fellowship; a most remarkable state of things to be brought to pass! In the opening of chapter 2 you have the great fact of an Advocate with the Father. This introduces what may be called the family sphere, involving the gradations spoken of.
WB The fellowship would be in the outside sphere.
JT Quite. That is what is public, but in chapter 2 the apostle begins with the term of endearment; it is not a question of our being God’s children, we do not come to that until chapter 3; it is what we are in the affections of the apostle; but at the same time in relation to the Father, and as having One with the Father who manages our affairs with the [p. 358] greatest interest and accuracy. I do not know any thought more precious than that of an Advocate with the Father. It is not yet our Father; we must not confuse our Father with the Father.
W.B. Why is that?
JT Because “the Father” refers to revelation. “The Father” is the source of everything, and the One from whom everything is. “To us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for him”. 1 Corinthians 8:6.
ANW To whom is the confession of sins made?
JT It is general. Of course, you confess your sins to God first, but obviously walking in the light and with brethren, you must take them into account. While one would not say that one is not forgiven until confession is made to the brethren, I believe it is much happier to confess to them also.
RSS Please open up the difference between “the Father” and “our Father”.
JT The Son is the revealer. It is not that God is my Father yet, but He is the Father in revelation. In John 20:17 it is, “my Father and your Father”. There is formal recognition of the link of relationship, but all through the gospel you will find the expression “the Father”.
RSS He is not ours until chapter 20.
JT No. We must not connect the idea of “the Father” with our being sons. The instruction in this epistle begins with the revelation of God. So far as I know, we are not said to be sons, or children of the Father, but of God.
RSS What you say makes an important distinction in regard to “the Father” in connection with eternal life, and “our Father” in connection with sonship.
JT “Our Father” takes us to heaven. That relationship is for us. The message, “go, tell my brethren”, John 20:17 involves our heavenly position. “That they might know thee”, John 17:3, refers to the earth. He becomes an object of veneration for those that believe; God and man are together in righteousness. The Father is in sovereign control of everything, and He works in grace to bring things about for His own pleasure. Compare 1 Corinthians 8:6, and Ephesians 4: 6.
RSS “I say not unto you that I will pray the Father for you, for the Father himself loveth you”, John 16: 26, 27. That does not go so far as “our Father”?
FL I think in reference to all that is coming out, it is important to remember that what we have here has purely to do with what is on the earth and the conditions of things consequent upon the generation of light being upon the earth; it has not to do with purpose, or heaven. God coming out in light has not to do with heaven; the Advocate has not to do with our position in heaven; but all is in regard to the condition of things pertaining to those who are of the light passing through a scene of darkness.
JT That is what I understand. When you come to the second chapter you have things maintained with the Father, not now with Jehovah, or Almighty God, but with the Father. Things are adjusted and maintained there for my soul in all that glorious light by Jesus Christ, the righteous One. It is the One who was down here and effected redemption, but it is that One who carried out God’s will down here. It shows the solidity of the position in which we are set.
EJW What seems to be before the apostle’s mind in connection with advocacy is that which is continuously true for the whole number of saints, the like what is said of the Spirit in John 14. Proper Christian life is to live without sin, to “sin not”; yet the possibility of sin is always there; but the whole system of relationships and blessing is maintained in righteousness “with the Father” in Him who is the righteous One, and who is the propitiation for our sins. It is not “If any man sin he has”, but “we have”. All the saints are in view.
ANW Is verse 2 the basis for advocacy?
JT I think so; the Lord is there on the ground of His death. It is “Jesus Christ the righteous, and he is the propitiation for our sins”. 1 John 2:1,2.
Ques In what relation will the saints be to eternal life in the world-to-come, as in Jude’s epistle, for instance?
JT It is the whole thing there, including the resurrection, and this is also how Paul presents it. We have our part in it, but we are not only raised, but glorified, it is all included in our position. I judge it is the full blessing as in the mind of God that is referred to.
FL After the rapture would you not rather speak of the church as being in life, than in eternal life? While the church will see and be interested and be occupied with the manifestation of eternal life upon the earth, has it not rather ceased to be restricted to eternal life after the rapture?
JT As regards the testimony of God’s power, we have life and incorruptibility, but we have more than that. “As is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly”. 1 Corinthians 15:48. In 1 Corinthians 15, we have the triumph of God, but in the second epistle the heavenly is more enlarged upon; “our house which is from heaven”, 2 Corinthians 5:2, “eternal in the heavens”, 2 Corinthians 5:1, so that although the church is undoubtedly a witness to the quickening power of God and of Christ, it is also a witness to what is heavenly; it comes out of heaven.
CAM Did you make a remark about sonship and eternal life?
JT It is well to keep things clear as in Scripture, and if Scripture speaks of “the Father”, it does not follow it is our Father. The Spirit presents that [p. 361] Person. There is one God, the Father, the Supreme Object of veneration to my soul, but I am a man down here, and if I know “the Father”, that is, God revealed, then I ought to inquire as to the order of man in which He has been revealed, so as to conform to that. “There is one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him”. 1 Corinthians 8:6.
FL Then in Ephesians we have, “of whom every family in heaven and earth is named”. Ephesians 3:15. He is the Father of all, and the purpose of God brings us in before Him, as “our Father”.
JT In regard to the naming of families, He names them in the measure in which they take character from the man that is before Him.
CAM Do you get the thought in Matthew 17? You have the thought of sons, and in the end of the chapter there is “me and thee” Matthew 17:27 in connection with the tribute. In connection with Peter’s denial, the Lord is the Advocate, and He is adjusted and set in relation to His brethren. Do you get the advocacy in connection with his restoration?
JT Certainly. John 21 shows how he gets into the good of it; he gets a commission and he raises the question of John. The Lord puts it that his point is to follow; it is entire submission to the will of the Lord. That is adjustment.
FL Luke 22 brings that out very clearly; “I have prayed for thee”, Luke 22:32.
AR Do you look upon sonship as a higher truth than eternal life?
JT You do not get sonship in this epistle as applied to Christians, nor in John’s gospel, and yet these are the two Scriptures that treat of the subject of eternal life; therefore, we ought to accept these facts, and the more you look into it the more you see that in resolving the question of life, it is what Jesus is as Man, although as a matter of power it implies His sonship. Power is of course implied; it is the [p. 362] Son of God who has that. But in resolving the question of life, we must go back to Genesis 2. “By man came death, by man also, came resurrection from the dead”. 1 Corinthians 15:21.
BTF Are there not two aspects of sonship; that is, the Old Testament aspect, “ye shall be my sons and daughters”; and then the New Testament aspect of sonship?
JT I think “sons and daughters” is God’s parental interest in them. I think it has a present application to those that come out of the world. “I will be a father to you”, 2 Corinthians 6:18. That is wholly the exercise of parental care.
BTF Would you say that has reference to eternal life?
JT I think eternal life is greater than that. 2 Corinthians 6:18, does not go beyond God’s parental care here.
WHF Eternal life has to do with this sphere, and “sons” has to do with the highest position in which man can be with God. The first relates to this earth, where death is, and the latter to glory.
JT God is leading many sons to glory.
Ques Is sonship not the highest thought?
JT I think the thought in the first chapter of Ephesians, predestinated to sonship, means to be wholly before Him in love. The second chapter is the work of God placing us there. The former is the purpose of God. “God ... for his great love wherewith he loved us ... hath quickened us together with Christ ... and hath raised us up together and made us sit together” Ephesians 2:4,5; Ephesians 2:6; it is a question of placing you there.
Ques Would you speak of Christians having eternal life after the rapture?
JT It is implied. If you have a king, or man of great wealth and magnificence of circumstances, the poorest man in the realm lives just as much as [p. 363] the king; but if you think of the great person, you think of the greatness of his circumstances. That is the way in which I regard the assembly. Think of the magnificence of our position before the face of God in love! We have eternal life, of course, for we are raised, but we are sons of God in heaven.
EJW Eternal life in the future is set before us as the proper Christian hope. See Titus 2:2, and Jude 21.
JT When you have a spiritual man talking about what is before him, what does he say? What does Paul say? “That I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus”. Philippians 3:12. While not denying the importance of eternal life, we must not ignore the great things we are called to.
LTF How do you apply eternal life to the Christian?
JT I am afraid very few of us have got as far as everlasting life, because it means that your spirit is entirely free from the pressure of death, and that you are in a constant sense of victory.
ANW According to Psalm 133, it is where brethren are in unity that the blessing is commanded.
JT It really is a stepping-stone into what is properly Christian privilege; it means you have victory, and you can go on untrammeled to what is your heavenly portion.
RSS So you have both.
JT The soul is escaped as a bird from the snare of the fowler.
WB Is the family circle an illustration of the sphere where you enjoy it?
JT It is more the gradation of growth. You will find the Father’s name is used nine times in the first two chapters, because it is a question of establishing our souls in the light of revelation. After chapter 3: 1, the name Father appears only once.
WB We grow in the light of [p. 364] the Father.
JT Yes, you grow there. The little children know the Father; that is the beginning of the soul’s history; it is marked by a knowledge of God revealed, but it is not that they know Him who is from the beginning.
EJW Reverting to eternal life and sonship, I would like to suggest that both must be regarded according to the connection in which they are found in the various passages of Scripture.
It seems to me that eternal life will be enjoyed by the various families on different planes; and so with sonship. The nations in Matthew 25 go away into eternal life, Israel will be established in eternal life, and we shall ourselves enjoy eternal life, but all with differences according to the knowledge of God and of Christ that will distinguish each family. So in regard to sonship; no doubt it is God’s thought for man generally. Of Israel it is said, “Ye shall be called the sons of the living God”, Hosea 1:10. Sonship for us is on a much higher level than anything in Israel. I believe it is helpful in thinking of eternal life and sonship to see the extensive, or universal character that attaches to them.
RSS So that raises the question as to those who come to the Lord, as the one who said, “What good thing shall I do?” Matthew 19:16. What had he in mind?
ESW I suppose eternal life as it will be enjoyed by Israel.
RSS Blessing here upon earth.
ANW The Lord in defining it did not specify what He defined. “This is life eternal that they might know thee”. John 17:3. He did not specify the plane.
EJW I would think it is a general idea, or principle, that applies to all; a true knowledge of God. “The only true God” supposes that God is not known, and does not have His right place with men. The Lord intimates that eternal life lies in the true knowledge of God, involving, I have thought,
recognised and enjoyed relationship (see “know” in Amos 3:2; Galatians 4:9; John 10:14, 15; Philippians 3:10), and of Jesus Christ as His sent One.
RSS Would you not think the two great features of eternal life which would apply in all these planes you were speaking of are love and intelligence, but now the abiding one of the three is love; faith, hope and love. God lost the love of man in the garden of Eden, and now in establishing eternal life, that is recovered for God and for man. God is love, and God is known; “This is life eternal that they might know thee”. John 17:3.
EJW Yes, God is to be intelligently known and enjoyed, and this in relation to the One whom He has sent; One who introduces and establishes an order of things which answers to the revelation of God, in which are found eternal conditions of life for man. I have connected with this, Moses, who was sent by God, anointing Aaron and the whole tabernacle system. Compare Exodus 10, and Leviticus 8 and John 1: 33, and Galatians 6: 8, and Psalm 133.