"THAT WHICH WAS FROM THE BEGINNING"(3)
“THAT WHICH WAS FROM THE BEGINNING”(3)
FL I think it was expected that we should look back a bit at chapter 2; we hardly touched on what we have there.
JT It may be helpful to consider the gradations in the family that are seen there.
FL You refer to the “fathers”, “young men” and “little children”.
JT Attention was called to the occurrence of the designation Father in the two earlier chapters, how that it appears some ten times in chapters 1 and 2, including the first verse of chapter 3; whereas God is of much fewer occurrence in the first two chapters. In the succeeding three chapters it will be observed that God appears about fifty times. So that, among other things, what one would gather is that the believer is nurtured in the light of the Father, he grows there, whereas in the succeeding chapters we have largely his position toward the world as having been thus nurtured. We have therefore, “See what love the Father has given to us, that we should be called the children of God”. 1 John 3:1. That is all Christians, including the apostles. It is not “that ye should be called the children of God”, but “we”; therefore, it includes all believers; irrespective of growth, the privilege being accorded by the Father, the Father having, as it were, brought them up. Now they obtain the title to be “children of God”, which is in a way a representative position.
FL That is to say, they have obtained an impression of the character of God; they have the moral features of God. The Lord in addressing His disciples and sending them out, tells them that the Spirit of their Father should be with them; that is [p. 367] the idea of their being nourished under the love and affection of the Father; they receive characteristics of the Father, and so are seen as the generation of the children of God.
JT That is what I thought. They are the children of God in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation among whom they shine as lights. I think a consideration of chapter 2 in that light would help us greatly as to the designation Father, not as yet “our Father”, for it is not so presented; it is presented as “the Father”.
WLP Does the term “little children” in verse 13 imply that they were young in the faith?
JT I think so; it is the least grown.
WLP Yet they have known the Father.
JT That helps as to the point of the chapter; the believer viewed in the minimum stage of growth is regarded as having a knowledge of the Father, whereas only the fathers are regarded as knowing Him that is from the beginning. This shows that to be in the light of revelation is not in itself so far on as a matter of growth as to have the knowledge of Him who is from the beginning.
FL Is knowing Him that is from the beginning simply all that is set forth in the Man, Christ Jesus? Would you not say it includes what is known of Him as Son of God?
JT I think so; His sonship underlies the teaching of the epistle.
ANW Would children in verse 12 refer to verse 1 rather than to degrees in the family?
JT Verse 12 refers to all the saints without reference to growth.
FL In verse 12 such an one as John, the aged, looks upon the whole company of believers as children, and uses a general term; then in the following verses he speaks to them according to spiritual growth and development, that is, “fathers”, “young men” and “little children”.
JT That is what I understand; and further, in the beginning of chapter 3 he himself is included in the “children”, because now it is “children of God”.
Ques Does not this epistle suppose all the children are in the light?
JT I think so. When he says, “If we say”, or “he that says”, and so on, there is a possibility that such an one may not be real; but when he addresses the saints by the parental term “children”, he assumes that all are real and that the very youngest is in the knowledge of the Father.
FL So hence on in the epistle it is the hard and fast lines of “children of God” or “children of the devil”.
Rem I thought that “he that hateth his brother”, 1 John 2:11, was seen in Cain; it is the murderer, not the true believer; it is simply the professor.
FL I think it is beautiful to see how this line comes into evidence in Acts 16 and 17, where Paul and those with him are cared for and nurtured, being passed on from hand to hand by “the brethren”.
BTF Would you say a word or two, to open out the thought of the youngest believers, the “little children”, knowing the Father?
JT I think it means that the youngest believer is regarded as in the light of revelation, because knowing the Father is that you know God as thus revealed, and unless you have that light you are not a Christian at all.
BTF When you speak of the revelation, you mean what came out in the Lord Jesus Christ.
JT “The only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him”. John 1:18. The Father has come to light. “Declared him” covers both the ideas of “God” and of “Father”.
BTF [p. 369] Not only the forgiveness of sins is grasped, but the sense of relationship is entered into.
JT Yes, but it has to be observed, that it is invariably “the Father”. You have, however, in the early chapters of Matthew “your Father”, because God is brought into evidence as caring for them, but with John it is more the Person, “the Father”, and so it is in this epistle.
FL Philip turns to the Lord, saying, “show us the Father and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father”, John 14: 8,9. That would help us as to coming into the knowledge of the Father as you put it, it is really the abstract thought of the Person.
JT And therefore the Father becomes one’s God. Instead of being, as with Israel, “Jehovah”, He is known as “Father”.
AR Growth seems to be in the knowledge of Him who is from the beginning.
JT Full maturity is seen in the knowledge of Him that is from the beginning; He is God’s Son, Jesus Christ.
AR That starts with a knowledge of the Father.
JT Evidently the first principle that comes into the soul is light, the revelation of God.
AP What is the difference between “the Father” and “our Father”?
JT “Father” is the designation of that Person in the Godhead, as we saw yesterday; but in John 20 the Lord links us with Himself, saying that His Father is ours, and His God our God. There we are formally recognised as in relation to the Father. When you have, “I will declare thy name”, it is more than revelation simply which is available for all; there is further the declaration of the Father’s name, the opening up of the Father, and of our relation with [p. 370] Him, which is special. This epistle is not on that ground.
RSS Where it says “our Father” it introduces the thought of relationship.
FL In connection with that designation it comes in at the point where the Lord says; “I ascend”. John 20:17. That is the position He has taken up now. “I ascend unto my Father and your Father”. John 20:17. Coming into sonship, we come into the knowledge of Him as “our Father”.
JT You will find in John’s gospel and epistles, that the expression Son is carefully connected with the Lord; it is a question of His personal designation; whereas Paul freely uses the expression in regard to ourselves, because he is engaged with the heavenly calling of the saints, with which John is not engaged. John takes up the subject of revelation.
FL It is only by inference we would gather from John that this relation to the Father is ours with Christ ascended.
JT The great fact of revelation requires the greatest attention by the saints in order that we should be here on earth as rightly representative of God. “As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons [children] of God” John 1:12; they are here representatively, having derived their origin and character from God as revealed.
PHP One apprehends God as Father in three distinct lights. In 2 Corinthians 6:18, “I will be a father unto you;” the “Father” here and “our Father” in John 20.
JT “The Father” is God revealed. It is in view of our position here, that we might be representative of God as thus revealed.
FL As “the Father” He puts His name upon every family in heaven and earth; in their several characteristics the name is put upon every family;
“[p. 371] Of whom every family in heaven and earth is named”. Ephesians 3:15.
JT And therefore revelation holds good for every family.
FL And “I will be a father to you” 2 Corinthians 6:18 really takes account of the saints in their pathway here.
JT And it has in view any loss you might sustain.
F.L. And recompense!
JT That is what I understand. The Spirit of adoption leads you to cry, “Abba, Father”. Romans 8:15. This corresponds really with John 20.
RSS In connection with the Jewish remnant, however, they will say “our Father”, but it will be in a different sense.
JT Undoubtedly; every family will be named of the Father.
RSS But it is in a different sense that Christians say, “Our Father”
JT I do not know if any but those forming the assembly will say, “Abba, Father”; it seems it would be confined to the Lord Himself and to us. He used that expression in addressing the Father.
PHP In Matthew 6:9, the Lord says, “Our Father, which art in heaven”.
JT It supposes the saints on the earth.
LTF What difference does “Abba, Father”, make?
JT It is intensification of the thought of Father. The fact that the Lord uses it makes it sweet, and we by the Spirit of adoption are enabled to use it too.
WHF Dispensationally God would reveal Himself in the character of Father, as previously Jehovah to Israel, and God Almighty to Abraham. The Father is in connection with Christianity.
JT It holds good for all that are blessed subsequently. It is revelation, The apostles went out [p. 372] baptising to the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit; that was said for the nations. “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost”, Matthew 28:19.
RSS When once God reveals Himself as “Father” every family gets the good of it.
JT Quite so. So millennial conditions shall not be simply on the ground of Almighty or Jehovah, although these designations are included in that of “Father”. It is the Father that raised Jesus from the dead; that is the testimony to God being almighty; and so in regard to the faithfulness of God it is found in “Father”.
FL But until Christ came and made the revelation it could not be said that the little ones knew the Father. If the little ones were addressed in Israel, it would be, ‘I have written to you because ye have known Jehovah’. Now that Christ has come, the feeblest believer is addressed on the ground of knowing the Father.
JT All families get the benefit of the revelation of God. But then there is what is special to Christians. The Lord said, “My Father and your Father” John 20:17; and we have the Spirit of adoption crying “Abba, Father”, as He did. That is special.
Rem That is not outside of revelation.
JT It is in excess of revelation. There is always that which is within. The special declaration of the Father’s names and all the system of relationship that hangs upon it, is private, it belongs to the inner circle. Revelation is that God has come into the light.
JAM That is, in Christ.
JT “The only begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him”. John 1:18.
RSS We do not get the revelation of the Father in the Old Testament. It is in Matthew 2 that the Son of God appears in incarnation, and the [p. 373] moment the Son appears the Father cannot now be hid; the moment had come for the Father to be revealed.
JT Quite so. The fact was, that the Father and the Son came to light at the Lord’s baptism.
RSS In the fact that He was a Son on earth.
JT I think we might add that revelation refers to what Christ was as Man here; that is, what the Father is, is opened up in revelation, not simply that He exists, but who that Person is. Revelation is not only that God is seen in the relationship of Father, but also what He is in character as thus seen.
FL “He that hath seen me hath seen the Father”. John 14:9.
JT We have in that way laid down in the gospels what the Father is. It has been often pointed out that the term is invariably connected with grace, which is a most important point.
JS Is it what He is characteristically?
JT What He is characteristically! Formally it came to light at Christ’s baptism, but it required the Lord’s ministry to bring out the character of the Father. What the Son was the Father was. “Now have they both seen and hated both me and my father”, John 15:24.
FL That is revelation. John writes after everything had transpired, the days of the Lord’s incarnation were over, and he says, “he has revealed him”. John 1:18.
RSS The “long time” John 14:9 during which Philip had been with the Lord, three years, is the time of revelation.
BTF Is the thought of children in 1 John 3 that they take character from the revelation?
JT That is the thought. “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons [children] of God, even to them that believe on his name”, John [p. 374] 1:12.
BTF And that character is displayed in the sphere of responsibility.
JT We were pointing out that Paul writes in Philippians, that we are to shine as lights, as children of God in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation.
WLP I would like to inquire what the excess is that has been referred to?
JT The excess is that the Father’s name has been declared to Christ’s brethren. “I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it”. John 17:26. See Hebrews 2:11, and John 17: 26. That is different from the first epistle of John. “The only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him” John 1:18; that is general; but then in John 17 He speaks to the Father about having made known His name to the disciples, and that He would yet do it; this latter undoubtedly refers to the message by Mary in chapter 20.
Ques Is that included in revelation?
JT Not in the sense in which it is spoken of in John 1:18. This distinction is important; if you do not admit it, you deny what is distinctive of the assembly.
FL Revelation is universal in its bearing; but the saints of this dispensation have special privileges; we have the Spirit of adoption, and we are the brethren of Christ.
Ques Would the death of the Lord Jesus be a necessity in order to have revelation?
JT Surely; it is there, that God fully shone out.
ANW Referring to Romans 8, is your thought that that is for us to enjoy rather than to give expression to; the Spirit crying “Abba, Father”?
JT What I understand is, that according to Galatians 4:5 we “receive sonship”, while in Romans 8:15 we receive the “spirit of sonship”. In Galatians the Spirit in us cries, “Abba, Father”; in Romans we cry, “Abba, Father” by the Spirit.
Ques, What the “fathers” knew did not take them off the earth?
JT You mean that Paul’s doctrine is not included; that “him that is from the beginning” 1 John 2:13 refers more to Christ as He was here. At the same time you can understand what a wonderful class of men they were. And what you will notice is that the past tense is used only in regard to the “fathers” and “young men”. He writes to the three different grades in the present, giving his reason for doing so, but he repeats, “I have written”, (verse 14), indicating that while the minimum growth is formally taken account of, yet it is not taxed specially with responsibility. In writing definitely to the fathers and young men and leaving the writing with them, there is permanent responsibility, but it is not so with the babes.
Ques Who are the fathers in our day?
JT Well, it is a dangerous thing to single out persons in this way now. I think, however, that what marked a father in John’s day would mark a father now. It is one who in the history of his soul has come to a definite knowledge of Christ as presented in the gospels. I would repeat that the gospels are the least understood of the New Testament writings.
J.S. Why so?
JT Because they are strong meat. The gospels are not written to meet local conditions; they are presented from God’s standpoint; hence the bearing is universal in the gospels. They present perfection in Christ, and in that way are the “pattern”. I refer to what God gave Moses on the mount, everything has to conform to that pattern. In Exodus it does not say once for all, “Thou shalt make”, and then give a list of the things to be made; it says,
“Thou shalt make”, and, “Thou shalt make”, and “Thou shalt make”, and afterwards it says, “And he made”, “And he made”, “And he made”.
CB What produces the “young-man” condition?
JT It is not only that the Father is known, but the “Word of God abideth in you”. 1 John 2:14. The mind of God is cherished. There is strength, which is the result of separation. You get the apprehension of a man; you gradually become strong as the idea of a man develops in the soul. It is so in natural things: a boy wants to be a man; it is remarkable how boys desire to be men. It is quite right, and gradually they arrive at it.
JS The gospels present a Man.
FL It is beautiful to see in the Old Testament a God-begotten desire for a man, but that phase of things ceases when Christ comes, for Christ was the Man ever before them to be hoped for; but when Christ has come that is terminated, the desire has come. Full growth is known in connection with the apprehension of Him that is from the beginning.
JT And then as the Man is presented in Christ, gradually those that believe on Him get the idea. It is one thing to have the idea and it is another to bring forth the idea you have in your soul. You want to bring out the result of your exercise, what you have seen objectively in Christ.
JS That requires power.
JT Yes, and it necessitates pain and exercise.
CAM All through where there is the production of a man, it is with sorrow. Jabez is a man brought forth in sorrow.
JT The apostle says he travailed in birth again until Christ was formed in the Galatians.
FL Characteristically it is seen in Paul: God had chosen him to reveal His Son in him, but he did not go to Jerusalem, but to Arabia, where every man’s hand was against [p. 377] every man.
ANW Would what you are saying be confirmed in that one of the qualifications for apostleship was to have seen Christ?
JT I think in effect the principle is seen in everyone that has gift. There is some way in which the soul apprehends Christ. He has ascended on high and led captivity captive, and given gifts to men. Gifts, coming from Christ, are to bring about down here the same conception or idea; that is, in ministry you have that thought in your mind. Paul had in his mind to present every man perfect in Christ.
FL The aim in all ministry is to produce an impression of Christ.
JT Hence a man is not really qualified for service until he apprehends the gospels.
Ques Is there a limited time before you are eligible for service?
JT We have to take the spirit of it. Service should begin with the right ideal. You cannot bring others beyond where you are yourself, so the great thing is to be something in that way, to have received a character from Christ. Paul spoke of himself undoubtedly when, in writing to Galatians, he said that Christ was “evidently set forth, crucified among you” Galatians 3:1; it referred to the reflection of Christ in Paul.
CAM Is it not remarkable that Ezekiel in bringing out what is future commenced with “the likeness of a man”? Ezekiel 1:5.
JT It is a fine suggestion. In Ezekiel you get a wonderful array of power in certain creatures, but above all that, in the brightness of the throne there is the appearance of a man. That is the gift that Ezekiel got. One can understand that that is what he had before him in his ministry.
FL We are competent for the defence of the testimony at twenty, of course a spiritual conception, Numbers 1: 3.
AAT [p. 378] What is involved in the fathers knowing Him that is from the beginning?
JT What is in view as to time is no doubt the Lord’s baptism. The testimony began when Christ was anointed. The “fathers” knew the Man thus presented. Paul says, “that I might know him and the power of his resurrection ... being made conformable to his death”. Philippians 3:10. I think Philippians 3 presents to us the normal desires of a spiritual man,
FL I was connecting the thought of “fathers” with Philippians 3 myself. It brings in the fellowship of His sufferings and conformity to His death, and there could not be any entrance into what is here said to be known by the fathers apart from that pathway. The fellowship of sufferings and conformity to death is not greatly coveted, but a father has to know them. A father is not an old Christian merely.
JT No. Paul knew whom he had believed, and could commit everything to Him 2 Timothy 1:12.
WHF Every family is named of the Father, but none of the families know Him as we do.
JT The Father names them according to the character they have derived from Christ.
CAM Referring to Hebrews 12:9, the “Father of spirits”. Do you connect that with “bringing many sons unto glory”? Hebrews 2:10.
JT It is “the Father of spirits”. God is taking care of our spirits. He takes care of the body, but the great thing is the spirit. If you are subject to the Father of spirits you will live.
FL Our position as children of God is dependent on our apprehending our place in sonship rather than the reverse. That is, we are brought into the light of sonship and are thus qualified to take up the place of the children.
JT I think that is right, and I would suggest that those described as “young men” and “fathers” have reached sonship.
[p. 379] FL Thus Philippians is the pathway on earth, of one who is in the value of Ephesians, of association with Christ, and in that way we can understand what is developed in this epistle better when we see that the way is through sonship.
ANW Perhaps we need to know where to find the “milk”, if the gospels are the “meat”.
JT The epistles provide the milk. Paul was a nursing father, 1 Thessalonians 2:11. He is concerned about bringing up the children, but then, it is bringing them up to what he has arrived at.
FL He is prepared to give them meat.
JT If they are ready for it. He could not give meat to the Corinthians.
Ques Do the gospels present Christ in different lights as under the eye of God?
JT I have no doubt the number is designed; You have a complete presentation of Christ.
ARP There are not five.
JT There are only four; everything is included in that number. There are four cardinal points, four winds, four living creatures, and so on.
Ques What place would the Acts have in the Scriptures?
JT Luke’s thought was to gather up in two treatises the whole testimony presented, first in Christ, and then in the apostles, so that we might see how the testimony of the grace of God was introduced into the world.