"THAT WHICH WAS FROM THE BEGINNING"(4)
“THAT WHICH WAS FROM THE BEGINNING”(4)
RSS Do we get in chapter 3 the two great features of eternal life; namely, righteousness and love?
JT Chapter 3 seems to develop the traits of the children of God, that by which they are marked off here. The manner of the love that the Father bestows upon us affords a theme for our holy contemplation.
RSS That means that that love towards us is special; it has taken the form that we are now called “children of God”, 1 John 3:1 which, as you were saying, is really the excess of grace.
JT Yes, we have a unique place.
RSS Which is not given to other families, even though those families have the revelation of God. Perhaps it might be helpful to see the difference between “children” and “sons”. It is reversed in the Authorised Version.
JT The distinction has often been pointed out, namely, that sonship refers to the dignity of the calling and corresponds with our position in heaven, whereas children refers to derivation, to parentage, and has reference to our place here where things are opposed to us. “The world knoweth us not”, 1 John 3:1, that is because it knew Him not. As born of God, we are not known by the world and have to encounter opposition.
RSS Would the ordinary thought in connection with the eldest son of the family, as regarded in Great Britain, for instance, show the difference? He often has the legal right, and he is the son; he has a position which the rest of the family have not; they are all the children, but the thought of sonship is more seen [p. 381] in connection with the eldest son. I refer to dignity of the relationship.
JT The position of children corresponds the Lord’s position down here, so the world knoweth us not, because it knew Him not. This shows that that kind of generation is outside of the ken of the world.
HMB Is there the thought of care, God a Father and we children? Although associated with the lord, we would not speak of it in that way.
JT It is the same nature that shone in Him that shines in the children.
FL We have the thought of the generation that is begotten of God as left here in the sphere of responsibility, so it is conceivable that with such there may be failure. Of course, we take character from Christ, and as begotten of God we do not sin, but we are in the scene of responsibility. The thought of sonship is privilege, and the idea of responsibility and failure does not attach to it.
JT God is leading many sons to glory, it does not say children. I think many are disappointed in that there is not the progress they desire in the ordinary circumstances, but the children of God are not discerned by the world, and that which we cherish brings us into discredit in the world, and discounts us there.
AR Is the enjoyment of our place as sons collective or individual?
JT Of course, one always enjoys a thing as a matter of light; that I am a son is a precious thought in the soul at all times; but that our affections may flow out and be reciprocated we need to be with others. The full realisation of it will be in heaven.
Ques Is it because we are sons that we are admitted into divine secrets?
JT I have no doubt there is a good deal in that as to our being in the confidence of God. That is dependent on sonship.
FL [p. 382] What is in the mind of God if it is appreciated is, “Son thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine”, Luke 15:31.
JT That is Israel’s place. She would have been the confidant of God on earth, but the elder brother failed to enter into the father’s thought. The assembly is now in the secret on account of the fact that we are in sonship and have the spirit of it.
BTF We know that when it is manifested, “we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is”. 1 John 3:2.
JT Our heavenly dignity is still future as to its manifestation. For the moment we have to be content to be misunderstood; “the world knoweth us not”. 1 John 3:1. It is a path of suffering for us; to be misunderstood is the most acute suffering.
BTF With children it is rather the manifestation of divine traits.
JT The traits of the children of God come out in chapter 3.
Rem Until the day of manifestation comes there is a process of conforming to what Christ is.
JT “Every man that hath this hope in Him purifieth himself even as he is pure”. 1 John 3:3.
RSS The new translation says, “what we shall be has not yet been manifested; we know that if it is manifested we shall be like him”. 1 John 3:2. The consolation is that we shall be like Him.
RSS Growth is contemplated with the young men and with the little children, but not with the fathers.
JT You have “children” in three ways: You have it in a patriarchal sense, the sense in which the apostle John had title to address all the saints by that term; it is what belongs to a man on account of what he is, he had a moral title to address the saints in that way. He also says, “little children”; that refers to measure of stature, and then you have the expression here: “Behold what manner of love [p. 383] the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons [children] of God”. 1 John 3:1.
WHF Do you think the distinction between children of God and sons is, that children are viewed as down here connected with suffering and God is with them, but in sonship the soul is with God?
JT I think that is right. Sonship is our being with God, so in Romans 8 the Spirit witnesses with our spirit. The Spirit is more with us witnessing that we are children.
FL And then it is as children we suffer.
JT Yes; whereas the Spirit of adoption leads the heart toward God; by Him we cry, “Abba Father”.
FL The thought of sonship is Godward and for heaven, while that of children is in character what Christ maintained here.
JT In chapter 4 you have the kind of spirit that marks the believer, so that the question for the children of God is to see that they are characterized by the Spirit of God. It is not as in Romans 8, “the Spirit of Christ;” it is the parental character being reflected in the children; hence you have God so often in these chapters. The Spirit emphasises the importance of God being seen here in His children. We have here referred to the spirit that is of the world and the spirit that is of God. In the end of chapter 3 you have, “And hereby we know that h abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us” 1 John 3:24. John then opens out the subject of spirits, a most important phase of the position, so that we might know how to discern them. You are not to believe all the spirits, you must prove them. The apostle is pointing out that what marks the spirit that is of God is that he is engaged with Jesus Christ come in flesh; that is more than simply saying the thing as a doctrine; it is what characterises the confession.
Ques Is that what Nicodemus had in his [p. 384] soul?
JT Well, the principle of it is there. “We know thou art a teacher from God”. John 3:2. There was a recognition of what is of God. I understand the spirit that is of God is engaged with the order of Man seen in Christ in the gospels. If teaching develops and enlarges your mind after the flesh, you may depend that the spirit behind it is not of God.
FL Hence the importance of what we have in the third chapter, that the devil brought evil in from outside and transformed man in the power of it into his own likeness. Then the Son of God is manifest that He might undo the works of the devil. He that confesses Jesus Christ come in flesh is of the spirit that recognises One come to undo the works of the devil, and in you as a believer I see the works of the devil undone. It is an accomplished fact.
JT The devil has wrought through the first man. Not that he has any regard for man, but it is the only way to oppose God. The acme of pride is in Satan; it is his own importance he is thinking of. We know that man is not his ideal; he is thinking of himself, but he eulogises man as away from God, and establishes him here for his own ends That is the spirit of the world.
JS That is seen at the close.
JT It is the spirit of antichrist. Antichrist is the man opposed to Christ, a man that speaks great things; he will not be an ordinary man, but the product of Satan, for Satan is shut up to that; it is the only way in which he can combat God. God meets him in Christ; hence the spirit that is of God makes much of that Man — the Man who carried out God’s will. Satan is acting against that, and you have the development of man after the flesh.
FL So that so far from regarding all that we see around us as curious or interesting in the various developments that arise in the religious world, we should be alive to the fact that there are positive [p. 385] spirits behind these things that are hostile to Christ. It is very serious.
JT It is very serious, and what they have comes largely from Christianity. There is utter want of consistency; they borrow all they can from Christ. The antichrists went out. They gathered up all they could from the Christian system, and went into the world with it; the development of that is the antichristian system; it is the spirit that has gone out from the Christian company that works in the world.
BTF Jesus Christ come in flesh meets that spirit that is abroad.
JT It is the spirit of those men that went out from the apostles’ sphere. The apostles spoke “all the words of this life”, Acts 5:20 the life of Jesus; they enlarged on the features of that Man. There were those who, like Judas, had the opportunity of learning of Him in so far as man in the flesh can learn it, and having learnt it, they went out. Here he says, “many ... are gone into the world”, 1 John 4:1 and not now “creeping in”. In the presence of the apostles they could do nothing; things were nipped in the bud in the apostles’ days.
ANW The position of the nations today would seem to confirm that. The most advanced nations have the light of Christianity.
FL Everything is logical; Satan came to the Lord; he sought Him. The Lord said, “The prince of this world cometh and hath nothing in me”. John 14:30. He had nothing in that Man, in that life, and therefore he entered into Judas and there became the characteristic of what we see in the religious world.
JT So the one begotten of God is beyond Satan’s influence, Satan “toucheth him not”. 1 John 5:18. Antichristian principles have operated where there is no restraint. During apostolic service there was restraint, the antichristian principles could not make headway in the apostles’ days. This epistle is to meet their influence. They went out into the world, and in the nations where Christianity has been accepted, you find antichristian principles the strongest. It is important to see the definition of sin in this epistle; it is not transgression of the law simply, it is “lawlessness”, disregard of restraint. That is what marks antichrist.
FL Hence it is a feature, not of the heathen world, but of the religious world where the knowledge of God has been. That is the substance of Enoch’s prophecy.
JT The knowledge of God is there, but there is no regard for it.
JLJ The young men overcame the wicked one; was it in this line they overcame?
JT The Word of God abode in them. In chapter 5 you find our faith overcomes the world. “Our faith” implies that Jesus is a divine Person, and centre of a new system. “Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God”. 1 John 5:5. All the machinery of Satan’s warfare is overcome by what we see in the Son of God.
JS What you have said shows the moral value of that which God has held in reserve to combat the spirit of antichrist.
JT It is the epistle for our time. There is more antichristian history in our time than we are apt to take account of. Now, how are we to hold against all that? I believe the apostle in a marked way here shows us how.
HC In speaking of the gospels, the only thing that will do for God is the spirit of the Man, Christ Jesus, as set forth there.
JT Quite so. The issue now is as to which man one prefers; whether it is “Jesus Christ come in flesh”, 1 John 4:2, the Man that simply submitted to God’s will [p. 387] and made it everything, or the man that casts off all restraint, and does his own will.
JS The epistle defines the issue, and there no neutral ground.
FL We have suffered much from defective presentation of the gospel. The desire of Satan to get souls into hell is emphasised, but as one sees in the light of Scripture, the habitable part of the earth is the fighting ground where Satan seeks to wipe out the spirit that is of God in man on earth. This epistle helps us much on that line.
JT There is perhaps no expression less understood than Jesus Christ come in flesh. In the confession of Jesus Christ come in flesh you have what is agreeable to God; you are according to that Man. God abides in you.
Rem In doing this you are setting aside man’s will.
JT Our confession is not merely what we say, it also implies our manner of life. Instead of confessing yourself, or giving out like Simon in Acts 8, that you are some great one, you make everything of Christ. Simon had no thought of confessing Jesus Christ come in flesh.
TR That is how we are tested as to where we are.
AR How would you meet that person?
JT I think the great point is to bring in Christ. Jesus Christ come in flesh refers to the order of man before God. Of course, His Deity is implied, for He came. His coming was in that condition.
EJW I thought what was said earlier in the meeting was very helpful; that is, as regards what engages us. One that confesses Jesus Christ come in flesh is engaged with God’s Man, and this gives character to him.
PHP Would that be a heavenly man?
JT The children of God for the moment answer to that; they answer to the pattern that is seen in [p. 388] Jesus Christ come in flesh; but nevertheless they are here in the way of testimony on the part of God; they represent the generation that God can identify Himself with. Indeed, in the future, in the millennial world, there shall be the same kind of generation in a limited way. This chapter enables us to judge by the spirit of things; so you inquire into the history of whatever is presented to you, as to what spirit is behind it. On principle, I would not read anything as ministry unless I knew the author to be commendable.
FL It is important that no matter who or what the person, we should not accept anybody until we know his associations and what is back of them. We can accept individual believers, and one is glad to recognise them, but when it is going further it is a question of what is behind and what they stand for.
JLJ Does not confessing Jesus Christ come in flesh involve a removing of the old order of man?
JT That is the next chapter. He came by water and blood. If you go on with Jesus Christ come in flesh that is involved. I think we generally take things on the surface, but we are called upon here to try, or prove, the spirits. Things are generally in the abstract in John’s epistles; it is what the thing is in its nature. Jesus Christ come in flesh is what is delightful to God.