READING
READING
JT In every dispensation there has been Prophetic ministry. You get it in the first world in connection with Enoch. He was a prophet, and Abraham was a prophet.
RSS Jude indicates that as to Enoch.
JT It comes out more clearly in each dispensation when things have declined; when departure from that which God had established in each dispensation took place the prophetic ministry was more in evidence.
RSS I suppose it would come in for the purpose of recovery after departure had taken place. When you speak of dispensation, do you include christianity?
JT Certainly. It was in that connection I had the liberty to suggest the thought as bearing on ourselves.
JP I suppose you would say the conditions obtain now that call for the application of prophetic ministry. You were remarking that prophetic ministry comes in in the Scriptures when there is a breakdown of that which God may have established.
JT I think it is more apparent then. So in our dispensation the book of Revelation takes that character. It is consequent on the decline which set in in the assembly.
WJN Has it only for its object the idea of recovery?
JT In the main, I think; but not only recovery; it has the character of an address to the whole responsible body of any given era. It places the whole body under responsibility, although they may not understand; it may not be intelligible to them,
[p. 2] and this may be judicial; but while it places the whole body under responsibility, it encourages the remnant. It establishes the remnant by bringing in God’s mind in regard to a future dispensation. Each remnant is allowed to look forward to another dispensation in which their hopes and desires should be established; so that prophecy includes, therefore, the announcement of future things.
JP The Lord’s ministry in Matthew 13 has a judicial character, because the very scripture we have read is quoted there.
JT And also John 12.
RSS What do you allude to in John 12?
JT Isaiah 53 is quoted first in verse 38: “who hath believed our report?” and then the Lord says, “Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart” (verse 40). But you get in the prophetic ministry encouragement for the remnant as to what is future. For instance, Enoch said he saw the Lord coming with ten thousands of His saints. He was evidently alone, but it would be an immense thought that there should be myriads of God’s saints, and the Lord should come with them.
RSS Why do you say he was alone?
JT The Spirit does not mention any other. It says, “Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him”, Genesis 5:24. He had the testimony that he pleased God.
JP Each mention of Enoch seems to present him as alone. There is no expression of any others being in association with him, whether he is walking with God or whether in connection with what the Spirit takes up through Jude.
RSS Does the ministry that is given to the remnant in that way, or in connection with what is future, necessarily affect the remnant themselves, or is it for others or both? I mean that God gives a ministry to the remnant when failure comes in, and [p. 3] this has usually what God has before Him in regard to a future dispensation; is that in connection with the remnant themselves, or is it in connection with others?
JT I think, as I said, it places the whole public body under responsibility, for God had sent the prophets to the nation. You will find that each prophet as a rule records the date of his prophecy, and it is a very remarkable thing that the last prophet addresses Israel — the whole nation.
RSS As in contrast with Judah or Ephraim.
JT You get Elijah and Elisha ministering in the midst of the ten tribes; whereas Isaiah, Jeremiah and Hosea, and others whose histories are not recorded, ministered in Jerusalem. But it is a very remarkable thing that the burden of the very last prophet, who evidently ministered to the recovered remnant from Babylon, is to Israel. I mean Malachi. Isaiah prophesied in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, and his word had reference to Judah and Jerusalem. Evidently he had in view a remnant in relation to God’s city.
RSS That is very interesting.
CA I suppose you would say the prophetic ministry becomes effective in the remnant while it does not in the people at large.
JT It places the body at large under responsibility, God having made a fresh overture to them; but it establishes the remnant in the knowledge of God’s interests, and the announcement of a future order of things in which all their hopes should find their realisation.
RSS ‘In which their hopes should find realisation’ — that answers my question.
JT So you find at the end of this section in Isaiah that their hopes are all realised. They engage in a song of triumph to Jehovah in connection with the realisation of all their hopes. Chapter [p. 4] 12.
JB In every prophetic ministry, would there not be a distinct word of the Lord for the nation?
JT That is exactly the point, so that the Spirit gives us the date of the ministries of the prophets. Therefore, in order to understand the conditions over which the different kings reigned, you have to examine the prophets that ministered in each reign. For instance, we might take Josiah’s reign as a remarkable one, which it was, and yet the prophet Zephaniah ministered in Josiah’s reign, and if you read Zephaniah there is no encouragement as regards the body at large; God was coming in in judgment to remove them. So that you get the internal state of the body at large in the prophet, whereas the record of the king’s reign may be very bright and encouraging. In the latter the Spirit is simply putting forward the personality of the king and his faithfulness, whereas the prophet deals with the people.
RSS That is very helpful indeed. So that in reading the Scriptures it would be well to read both the historical part of the books of Kings and Chronicles and the prophets together.
JT It is essential to do that if you wish to understand the conditions that prevailed in each reign. You may take any era of the history of the church; God might give a powerful ministry through some servant, and the Spirit might present that ministry to you and encourage you with it, but that servant being removed, the condition of the body at large comes into evidence, and things are not so bright as you might have thought they were. God is acquainted with the state of the people, and you must examine the character of the ministry to determine the state of the people.
JB That state is always laid bare by the prophet.
ARS Did the state of the people not depend also on the kind of a king they had?
JT No doubt the kings had a good deal to do [p. 5] with the forming of the people, but at the same time the low underlying condition of the people in the days of Hezekiah and Josiah is marked in spite of the faithfulness of the king. In this prophecy of Isaiah you see the terrible condition that existed in the people.
WJN And that in the reign of godly kings. Speaking of Josiah, the manner of his death was long a mystery to me. It is helpful to see that the state of the people was beneath it.
LTF A godly king affected the people outwardly. Their inward state came out in another way.
JT The state of the people came out in the wilderness; they were idolatrous. God said, “I will carry you away beyond Babylon”, Acts 7:43. That was before ever they went into Canaan. God acted in love towards them, but the state of the people was marked by unbelief from start to finish.
AAT While the state of the people in general was one of unbelief, did you not say the word in the prophets is more directly to the remnant as a word of encouragement?
JT It was that, but it was a word to the people at large as well, as we have been saying.
WJN And so the thought of judgment is found largely in the prophecies.
JT No doubt, in every prophet.
WJN And there is the same thought in the New Testament prophecies.
JT There must be of necessity, because they are introduced on account of declension; where departure sets in God must intimate judgment.
LTF What was the element of encouragement to the remnant?
JT You get it in the next chapters. For instance, Isaiah had a son called Shear-jashub, and he was to go to the king with that child, the meaning of the name of the child being [p. 6] a remnant shall return. There you see how God meets the people. This chapter is preliminary to what follows, because the prophet himself needed light. What enlightens us in regard to the prevailing conditions is the sight of the King, the King seen in His true light; thus everything is seen in its true light; “mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts”. Isaiah discovers his own state and the state of the people.
ARS You mean that he got into the presence of God, and there you understand everything.
JLJ You would say we need to see the King in the same light today.
JT As Isaiah saw Him. The throne had been disgraced by the line of kings. Uzziah was a peculiar character. He became a leper. He had attempted to enter into the temple to minister as a priest, and he became a leper, and we are told he dwelt in a separate house till the day of his death. It was in the year that he died that Isaiah saw the King. Jotham was his son. Jotham was not the ruling king now. The ruling king was Jehovah, and he says, “I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne”. The throne had been vacated; Uzziah had died, and what the prophet sees is God upon His throne; that is the sight you want to see if the responsible element fails; “his train filled the temple”. He was on the throne, and He was supreme in the temple also, so things were secure.
RSS What would you say King Uzziah set forth? Was it presumption?
JT It was presumption for one not a priest to take up priestly service.
RSS So it set aside in that way the holiness of God. None, even the king, could approach Him save a priest.
JT It was a denial of the character of the house. Both the throne and the house had been affected, and [p. 7] what is encouraging here is that Jehovah is on His throne, and that His train fills the temple; so that He has secured the throne and the temple.
RSS Uzziah really defiled both.
JP And it is what marks the moment that gives it such wonderful force; it is in the year that King Uzziah died.
JT That is what I was thinking of. Isaiah is to be the vessel for the conveyance of God’s mind to the people, and he is furnished at the start with this wonderful vision.
JB Is there not always some revelation of God to a prophet at the start?
JT Always something that indicates the state of things in which his ministry is to be carried out.
JB It is the character of God.
JT It is like a man’s gift. He gets some particular view of Christ. For instance, Elisha saw Christ, typically, going up, and he saw the chariots and the horsemen; that is, the grace of Christ ascending would fill his soul, and his ministry would be accompanied by the power of God to carry that grace into effect. So here, the throne and the temple were the two features that every right-minded Israelite would have before him, and Isaiah begins with this wonderful vision.
WJN Why are the seraphim here?
JT Because it is a question of God’s nature. It is a question of the ministry of grace, but in connection with God’s holy nature.
JP Hence the three-fold ascription, “Holy, holy, holy”.
JT They surround the throne. I think the vision taken as a whole represents God as in complete control of the throne and the temple. His holiness in that way is guarded; and then you get the activity of grace, with the becoming humility in the seraphim; “with twain he covered his face, and with twain he [p. 8] covered his feet, and with twain he did fly”. Everything that is suitable to the occasion is there.
JB What do the seraphim represent?
JT They are connected with God’s nature, I think, and in this instance they guard His nature. “Holy, holy, holy”. It is a question of guarding the divine nature; but then there is activity in connection with that, and it takes the form of relief; He relieves the prophet.
RSS When you speak of guarding God’s nature, would that include love as well as holiness?
JT It would now, seeing that God is fully revealed. He is love in His nature; He is love, but it is a holy love.
JB Is He not taking into account the earth here and also man in this connection, “the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory”? The question was asked as to the love as well as the holiness, and here God is regarding the Man in whom the love of God is expressed.
JT But I think the point is, everything is secured divinely in the presence of the state of the people. The throne and the temple and the nature of God, guarded morally by the seraphim — all this in the presence of the state of the people. The people were unclean.
WCR The prophet was brought into moral fitness for it by the coal from the altar.
JT That is a helpful thought.
WB I have wondered if the Lord’s appearance to Moses in the bush was akin to this.
JT It indicated what would mark his ministry. The bush burned and was not consumed. It refers to the dealings of God with a people in the wilderness — His discipline; that the bush should be unconsumed, and yet God should be in the midst in discipline.
WB I was thinking that everything should be according to the character of God; the place was [p. 9] holy, and God wrought to bring His people to that. He never deviates from what He is.
JT The tabernacle sets forth that if men were to draw near to Him they must be in accord with what He is.
AAT In what way can we have God’s nature guarded as it is spoken of here?
JT It is a question now of the priestly state here upon earth, and that is a result of the Holy Spirit.
GFW Is it not that God’s nature is really guarded in the affections of the saints?
JT I think it is the priestly state. You require that now in order to have divine things guarded.
AAT Is that an individual matter?
JT Priesthood is individual. You would not allow an attack on Christ if you love Him. That is the guard against evil doctrine.
GFW You mean an attack in your own heart?
JT Or anywhere else.
GFW But that is the main point, is it not?
JT You would have to guard against yourself, but the priesthood will not suffer any attack on Christ.
AAT I was helped recently in seeing that, although Moses was the meekest man on the earth, yet when sin occurred in the camp, he was very firm.
JT The, seraphim represent the agency by which the divine nature is guarded here on earth.
TA Would you say, that holiness in the vessel and testimony, are connected in this chapter?
JT Yes.
TA How necessary it is to be holy before any true testimony can go out!
JT What was remarked is very important, that the prophet is put into moral correspondence with the vision through the coal from the altar. You feel that on our side death is necessary if we are to be put into moral relation with the [p. 10] holiness of God.
WB Nothing short of holiness will do for a people in relation with God.
JT Quite so; and also if you are to become a messenger to convey the divine thoughts to His people.
JB Mary says, “he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name”, Luke 1:49.
WB There must be fitness first.
JT You feel in ministry, that it is of immense importance, because if ministry is taken up apart from the altar you are sure to get corrupt thoughts in connection with what is ministered. Do you not think so?
JP I am sure of it; so this chapter is properly introductory; hence you get first the one who is to be the vessel of this prophetic message; he is fitted; and then the remnant comes to light at the end, the tenth, Isaiah 6:13.
TA Is the tenth God’s portion?
JT Clearly. I believe that each prophet sees something at the outset, and what he is to say to the people takes character from what he sees. For instance, Jeremiah saw an almond tree and a seething pot, the interpretation being that God would hasten His word to perform it; so that what you feel you get with Jeremiah is the faithfulness of God. He would carry out His word. And Ezekiel sees something that indicates the power of God; His name indeed signifies ‘strength’.
JP And it is what each one sees that stamps its character on their ministry.
JLJ How is the live coal applied at the present time?
JT It refers to the ministry of grace; this is seen in the swiftness of the seraphim to effect relief. Isaiah says, “I am a man of unclean lips”; that is what we are by nature. You do not want to use anything you may have acquired by nature in your ministry.
[p. 11] JLJ It is applied to the mouth and lips.
TA Would it not apply to suitability to set forth the testimony?
JT You are in correspondence with the vision, so that now you are ready to be sent.
CA The prophet had to become qualified.
JT “These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him”, John 12:41. That is the kind of testimony you want to render — a testimony of Christ as seen in His glory.
WHF Is this the character of discipline in connection with the prophet in order to fit him for his work?
JT The light of God in His holy nature shone in upon his soul, and he felt how utterly unclean he was. He had been pronouncing woes on others before, and rightly, but now he sees himself.
WJN As the prophetic word became effective in the remnant, would it have the same effect on them as on the prophet?
JT I think so. In chapter 9 you get, “unto us a child is born”, Isaiah 9:6. They come now to see the Child. They come into the light of Christ, but at this point it is a question of the prophet. He sees the Lord in His glory. If you see the Lord in His glory your ministry will produce a people that will speak of Him; there will be response to Christ. In chapter 9 they take account of the Lord as on their side. By the gospel you are brought into the light of what Christ is on our side, so that you claim Him as it were.
CA So that it is very essential what he sees of the glory.
JT Every minister ought to be very sure that he has seen the glory.
CA You see that exemplified in the apostle Paul.
[p. 12] He sees the glory above the brightness of the mid-day sun.
WHF I suppose there are hardly two that get the same impression.
JT Nothing evidences that more than the prophets. Each prophet gets some view peculiar to himself.
JB Something distinctive.
WHF So that each one is characterised by the impression he gets from the Lord.
JT The prophets are very encouraging in that way, and instructive, too, in regard to the ministry.
WB Does that come out in the way of gifts?
JT I think gifts are analogous. It is a question of what view a man gets of the Lord.
WHF Do you not think the prophets through in their own spirits the condition of things before God?
JT I am sure they did. Isaiah judged the state of things in which he found himself, as well as himself.
ARS Do you not think you get a very good example here of the way the servant is trained for his work? The Lord says, “who will go for us?” and now Isaiah is ready. He had seen the Lord and had his lips touched; he was in moral correspondence, and the Lord says, “who will go?” and he says, “Here am I”. He is ready. He has been trained.
JT And then the message that he had to carry here was such a painful one; it was a message of judgment; but, although in his affections he might say “Lord, how long?” because he loved the people, yet he was in entire accord with God’s holy nature in his testimony.
WJN I suppose one could hardly be the bearer of a message of judgment unless he is himself in accord with it morally.
JT Although in your affections you regret that it is necessary to carry it.
[p. 13] WJN You are in accord with the judgment yourself.
JT But you feel for the people.
WJN I mean you are in the good of the live coal being applied to the lips.
JT You are in sympathy with God, but you feel for the people. If judgment has to be executed, every right-minded believer thinks of the people on whom it falls. Take Moses as an example. He would ask Jehovah that he might be blotted out of His book rather than that the people should be blotted out, and Paul had wish that he was accursed from Christ for Israel’s sake.
WJN So even Christ could weep for Jerusalem.
JB Is it not the afflictions of Christ and the sorrows of Christ in that way that came out in these prophets, like the Lamentations?
JT It was the Spirit of Christ, but they acquired that Spirit by beholding Him. “These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory”, John 12:41.
GFW Some of the prophets had to go through fearful things. One had to lie so many hundred days on one side.
JT That was Ezekiel, and you find Isaiah walked naked and barefoot for a long time. It shows how entirely given up to the divine will they were. They were there for the will of God and nothing else.
RSS And I suppose as an indication of what the people themselves will suffer.
JT In each of those instances it was so. The testimony set before the people of what they should go through — Isaiah referring to Egypt, and Ezekiel to Israel. Instead of God having to employ angels to carry out His will in the midst of the people, He is pleased to take men, such as Isaiah and Ezekiel, but they had to go through severe discipline so as to be brought so under the will of God as to be subject to it.
AAT And it is so that God would discipline the [p. 14] prophets, each one in a different way, to fit them for that service.
GFW Did they not have to do with the state of the people in some way and in some connection with Christ?
JT The thought of God was, that the Spirit of Christ should be set forth in them. Each one sets forth some particular phase of Christ, but God had them so under His control that He could use them in setting forth His mind in connection with the people.
GFW How could the prophet lying on his side have reference to the people?
JT It had reference to the judgment of God which was coming on them for their protracted years of iniquity. The message given to Isaiah here had reference to the state of the nation. It was a message of judgment: it says, “Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed”. That was a terrible message to carry, but it showed that God was coming in in judgment on the people; it marked the state of things during the Lord’s ministry.
RSS But such judgment could come in only where there had been the refusal of the light beforehand.
JT It referred to the state of the people. There should be a ministry in their midst that was of God, and yet they could not understand it. That is to my mind a terrible judgment — the people placed under responsibility by a message they could not understand.
JB Is not this the greatest of all judgments, that people should hear and not perceive? Their case was [p. 15] hopeless.
JT There is no hope for such people. So the prophet says, “How long?” and the answer is still more terrible; “Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate”.
JLJ Would you say there is no hope of getting any better? In the state contemplated they would not accept the message.
JT In our own time there has been a message of God going out, and it places the whole body of Christendom under responsibility, and yet as a matter of fact they cannot understand it.
WHF And not only that, but many have really turned aside from the light.
JT And we are going on to a moment when God shall send men strong delusion that they should believe a lie (see 2 Thessalonians 2:11).
JB How does this correspond with the end of John 9: “For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind”?
JT It is very similar. You get the full result in chapter 12. The Lord had been all day long stretching out His hand, and then quotes Isaiah: “Lord, who hath believed our report?”, John 12:38. John says, “they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes”, John 12:39,40. He quotes from this chapter — Isaiah 6. It shows, that God had come in in judgment so that they could not discern His testimony.
JB What is the coal from off the altar? Would that take into account the remnant and God dealing with them?
JT It has reference to Christ bearing the judgment of God sacrificially. The remnant is all secured through the testimony of the altar. Everything is to [p. 16] be placed in correspondence with the vision, and this is through the death of Christ.
JB The altar refers to judgment, there is the fire there.
JT It is the consuming of what is contrary to God, and the message corresponds with that; till “the land be utterly desolate, and the Lord have removed men far away”.
JB Cleansing comes from that.
E Would the judgment be just previous to God’s grace coming in in its fulness?
JT The judgment is consequent on light having been presented, and refused. God does not come in all at once, and execute judgment because the light is refused, but He introduces a testimony and closes people’s ears and eyes, so that they should not hear and see it, that is, this judgment should be seen as righteous.
E That would apply to this present age.
JT That is the solemn part of it.
RSS It was the same with Pharoah. God hardened Pharaoh’s heart, but not till he refused light from God.
JB Was not the real fulfilment of this when men were tested by the Lord Himself?
JT The Lord said: “Now is the judgment of this world”, John 12:31. That shows the Lord was the test; the light was there, and it was rejected; but He immediately goes on to say: “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me”, John 12:32. His death is introduced. It is not His ascension. It is His death.
JB It is the manner in which He should die.
ARS What does it mean when it says, “will draw all men unto me”?
JT I think it means that He should be the gathering centre, as having died in this way.
ARS Not that every one will be [p. 17] drawn to Him.
JP That all that are drawn are drawn to Him. There is no other centre.
ST Is it the separating of the remnant?
JT Yes. The world is judged, and the remnant find their new centre in Him. All are drawn to Him.
WB Does not Paul refer to this in the last recorded statement in the Acts, the last appeal?
JT That is the last appeal to the Jews as such in the Scriptures, Acts 28.
WJN Does not John’s gospel in a general way contemplate the present day, that is, prophetically? I was thinking of chapter 2. You get His death and resurrection referred to there, and I suppose you get in the following chapters what would be true in connection with the presence of the Spirit here.
JT John meets the breakdown in the church. John is the great prophet in christianity. But then his prophetic message runs concurrently with the message of life which the gospel is; so that the remnant is sustained in life, while the prophetic message runs on and places the whole body of Christendom under responsibility. Hence the prophetic word given to John was to be written in a book. It was not a message to each church alone. It was to be put into a book and sent to the churches. Each church was to get the book. So that the whole body of Christendom is placed under responsibility by the prophetic word of John.
RSS I remember you remarked at one time, in connection with the prophets, something that helped me very much. We have been speaking of it while together, in a way. It is that you find the most scathing judgments pronounced, and then perhaps in the very next verse you find words of most beautiful encouragement, and you are surprised to see them side by side; they are almost in the same sentence. But you remarked that in order to read the prophets aright you have to take into account, on the one hand,
[p. 18] that God is addressing the responsible body; and, on the other hand, He is addressing the remnant.
JT That is a most helpful point. Now in the book of Revelation you get what answers to that fully. The Lord is seen by the prophet first of all, in the character of a Judge. That referred to the responsible body. He was in the midst of the assemblies — the seven assemblies representing the whole responsible body in Christendom; the Lord is there in the midst as a Judge. John falls at His feet as one that is dead, and the Lord says to him, “Fear not”, Revelation 1:17. His word to John is entirely different. His judicial garb had no reference to John. John represents the remnant. The Lord says; “I am the first and the last, and the living one: and I became dead, and behold, I am living to the ages of ages, and have the keys of death and of hades”, Revelation 1:18. That is for the remnant. Then in chapter 4 John says, “After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither”, Revelation 4:1. In that way the remnant is encouraged, while the great body of Christendom is left on earth in Laodicea; the door is opened in heaven, and the voice says, “Come up hither”. I believe in that way the hearts of God’s saints are sustained while there is the announcement of the most terrible judgments on those who have failed.
JB Is not the point that God’s land should be reserved for the remnant?
JT Yes; a remnant should come back, but even that remnant has to undergo the discipline of God; but the point is, “the holy seed shall be the substance thereof”, Isaiah 6:13.
JB That is, the substance of the teil and the oak shall be there though the leaves are gone.
ST Discipline has always in view the saving of [p. 19] the remnant.
JT And the land belonged to them.
CA The door is opened in heaven.
JT That is for us.
RSS What does the holy seed represent? Is it the work of God in the saints?
JT It refers to what is of Christ subjectively in the remnant — what is of God. That was the substance.
WB “In it”. What does that refer to?
JT The tenth. “And it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof”.
WB Then the tenth comes out of the nation?
JT That is God’s portion, but even that should come under His discipline.
RSS “Shall be eaten” — that would indicate discipline.
JT I think so. The substance should remain, which is the holy seed.
WB Would Paul be like that? He was the representative of the remnant.
JT He spoke of himself in that light: “I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin”, Romans 11:1. God had reserved to Himself a remnant according to the election of grace. The remnant is God’s portion. That is important to see. I have reserved to myself seven thousand.
WB How do you understand what we get in Luke 17: ten men cleansed from their leprosy, but only one of them that returned? Have we anything to do with the nine that were cleansed or the tenth?
JT You feel the responsibility of the nine was there, and that always holds good; while Christendom [p. 20] exists on earth, the responsibility of the total remains. The ten were all responsible. They had received blessing from the Lord, and that placed them, morally, under obligations, whereas only one returned. That one was God’s portion.
RSS In connection with Isaiah’s question to the Lord, it shows how well he knew God’s character. He says: “Lord, how long?” He knew God in such a way that when he spoke of judgment he could ask a question like that. You get that in other servants of God: Abraham, for instance, when God was about to destroy Sodom, raised the question: “Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?” Genesis 18:25, when he pleads for the city on account of the righteous who might be there.
JT It is beautiful that the prophet says, How long?
RSS What do you see in it?
JT I think it is the affection that is proper to a servant, to all who are with God; affection for God’s people. You care for them in spite of their weakness.
WCR They like to see the judgment delayed.
JT It is not that exactly, but you feel for them.
LTF It is the idea that there is an end to judgment and something beyond; a remnant saved.
JT It is not that the prophet would like to have the wicked man retained in the land, but the people abstractly were God’s people; as we were saying; Moses felt it in that way.
WB You get the thought in David in the numbering of the people. His spirit seemed to go out for them in connection with the plague.
JT He called them sheep. A man that can, with God, look at the saints as sheep.
GFW Is it not that he longed for that line of things to be over and the new to come in?
JT You can always tell where a man is when he begins to speak of God’s people. You can form an [p. 21] idea of where he is in his soul if you hear him speak of God’s people. The terms he uses indicate where he is. Now David showed his character; he began with caring for the sheep. He had been caring for his father’s sheep, and the truth was that God intended him to be a shepherd of Israel, and he retained this character. “These sheep, what have they done?”, 2 Samuel 24:17. But really things were not right with them, and God was dealing with them. He moved David to number them.
JP That was beautiful on the part of David; “these sheep”!
JT You will always get the divine line marked out in contrast to the evil line; the divine line is marked out by the way in which individuals are occupied and how they speak. Abel was a keeper of sheep, not an owner; whereas Cain was a tiller of the ground. I believe you have in Abel the line of God marked out. He is not self-occupied, he has an object outside of himself; he is occupied with sheep. I believe it was Christ prefigured.
JB On the contrary, Nabal was a sheep owner, and those that protected the sheep he despised.
JT David and his men were a wall to them in the wilderness.
WB John 10 brings out very beautifully what was prefigured in Abel.
JT The Lord really was prefigured in that way in Abel, and you get it always. Take Abraham, he was a keeper of sheep; for he was a keeper of God’s people. Although Lot virtually separated from him, yet Abraham loved him, and when he was in trouble Abraham was his friend and rescued him from the enemy. It shows, I think, the spirit of Christ. You will always find that when people are with God they care for God’s people. And then later you find Abraham interceding for Lot.
GAH Would you say that Moses was not qualified to care for the people when he left the court of Pharoah? He needed forty years’ discipline.
JT He was not qualified, but the shepherd was there; he would take care of them. He had the right motive. He had the affections. The Spirit of God charges wickedness on the people for rejecting Moses when he first sought to care for them, Acts 7:25,35.
JNH You speak of one who while exercised for the good of God’s people, even acted in self-will.
JT Yes; but it is beautiful that God alludes to that incident in the testimony of Stephen. He says, they would not have the deliverer when he was there. It was out of love for the people that he slew the Egyptian, and sought to establish peace between his brethren.
AAT I was thinking that when we are exercised as to the saints in the way we speak of here, as were Moses and Paul, the exercise must be of God, and we must look to Him, and He will come in in response to the exercise.
JT It is a great thing to know how to care for the sheep properly. Moses had the right idea, and the Spirit of God does not say anything about the self-confidence that might have been in it. But then it is very important to know how to care for the sheep. I believe that David had divine instruction before he had the place. He kept his father’s sheep in the wilderness, where there was no one to applaud him. He had to rescue the sheep from the lion and the bear in a secret kind of way, and then he is made the shepherd of God’s people Israel; and it is beautiful that he retained his shepherd character to the last. “These sheep, what have they done?”
CA So Peter had to go through a great deal of discipline before being qualified to be a shepherd, but he became one.
JNH I was wondering why you mentioned that it might be in self-will.
JT I would not say self-will, but you feel there was irregularity in connection with what Moses did; the time had not come.
M When Moses started he did so in his own strength, and slew the Egyptian, but after he was disciplined forty years he went forth in the strength of God.
JT He could not even speak. You appreciate the man who retires, who refuses the place. He takes it because it is imperative, and there is no one else to do it.
RSS You get the same thought in connection with Paul and the Thessalonians: “But we were gentle among you, even as a nurse”, 1 Thessalonians 2:7. That would suggest the same thought. A nurse is not the owner of the children. Paul says: “we were willing to have imparted unto you, not the gospel of God only, but also our own souls, because ye were dear unto us”, 1 Thessalonians 2:8. It was affection. It should be that in every case.
WB We should get along better if we were like that.
JT Have an object outside of yourself. You are not thinking of yourself, but you are set for the good of others.
JP It may be late to ask this question, but what about that expression, “the whole earth is full of his glory”?
JT It is a wonderful expression.
JP When you come to the details of the chapter it does not look like that, does it? I mean the cities wasted without inhabitant, and houses without men, and the land utterly desolate. I suppose if we get the vision of God as the prophet did, as you said, we see [p. 24] He is on the throne and His train fills the temple, and then you get this ascription on the part of the seraphim, and then you get the result, the whole earth is full of His glory. It is prophetic, the full and final result seen in the light of the throne, and God on the throne. When the prophet said “how long?” it would be how long till this result would be reached; and you notice in Isaiah 12 the result is reached — the whole earth is full of His glory. The earth is mentioned; “in that day shall ye say, Praise the Lord”, Isaiah 12:4. “Sing unto the Lord; for he hath done excellent things: this is known in all the earth”, Isaiah 12:5. I suppose it is a great thing for us at the present time to see the full result.