THE ASSEMBLY: ITS HEAVENLY CHARACTER
[p. 101] THE ASSEMBLY: ITS HEAVENLY CHARACTER
John 12:20 - 34; John 20:14 - 20
JT What I have chiefly before me is the heavenly character of the church as the vessel of testimony; the testimony in her hands takes a peculiar character; it is now in the hands of a heavenly company, and is maintained here after a heavenly fashion. Also, that as maintaining the testimony in the absence of Christ, there is suitable elevation resulting from it; that is, the book of Revelation shows that the church has a heavenly place, and as seen in heaven, and coming out of heaven, she is identified as the bride, the Lamb’s wife. She had graced the house in His absence, had taken care of things, as the “virtuous woman” in Proverbs 31, she had seen well to the ways of her household in the absence of the Lord — hence the corresponding glory.
JB You would say also that the testimony itself has a heavenly character.
JT It has, only that it embraces all that had preceded it. Every thought of God from Abel onwards was deposited in the church. “Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples”, Isaiah 8:16.
JB I was thinking of John 3:31, where John says, “he that is of the earth is earthly”, and the Lord is referred to as the One who came from heaven, and what He had seen and heard, that He testified.
JT The Lord coming in took up everything that God had given expression to and put it all together; indeed, it all referred to Himself, so that things took form, and in that way the whole of the testimony partakes of a heavenly character. The fact is that the ark was typically that in which the divine testimony was preserved. The Lord took up everything that God had given expression to and maintained it,
[p. 102] and He committed all that to the disciples: “Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples”. What I would like to see clearly is that the New Testament shows that the disciples were elevated morally as partaking of the heavenly character, so that they were qualified to take up the testimony during the absence of the Lord.
RSS It was that which you were seeking to bring before us this morning in connection with Sarah and Rebekah, Rebekah really filling the place that had been left vacant by Sarah, and much more.
JT That is it. I think that two passages help to show how the disciples, as coming into the light of Christ’s resurrection and ascension, became practically heavenly. Chapter 12 does not go beyond resurrection, but chapter 20 does. It presents to us the heavenly Man, and it shows that these who should be His associates are also heavenly.
RSS I was hoping that we all got the benefit of what you said this morning, calling attention to the fact that it is resurrection in chapter 12. The man whom the Lord had raised from the dead, Lazarus; but then, as you are saying now, in chapter 20, it is a further thing; not only the Lord risen but ascended. It is as such that He enters.
JT That is a very important distinction; I have only seen it lately, because I have been accustomed to connect chapter 12 with the assembly; and there is a connection, as the assembly participates in the resurrection as well as Israel; but Israel does not appear in chapter 20 till the second appearing, verse 26. In the first appearing, verse 9, it is the saints viewed in the light of being the associates of the ascended One.
JP Israel, as such, never will be a heavenly company, will they?
JT No. I think that following the course of the Scriptures the first allusion to the church is Eve, in Genesis 2, and it does not go on to what is heavenly;
[p. 103] it is simply a question of the derivation of the church; she is derived from Christ. But when you come to Rebekah (directly Isaac is seen as risen you get the genealogy of Rebekah), her genealogy is presented, and when you come to chapter 24 Abraham makes Eliezer to swear that he is not to take a wife for Isaac from the daughters of the Canaanites. He is to go to another country for her. So that I think you have a step further seen in the fact of another country, that she comes from another land.
RSS A heavenly one.
JT Yes. Not only of the stock of Isaac, but she comes from another land. And therefore I think one can see her typical dignity as coming into Sarah’s tent; how she would grace that scene; how she would fill Sarah’s place.
WHF Suitability is connected with being of Isaac’s kindred; she was of his kindred.
JT And Abraham, in Genesis 24:1 - 4, speaks of where she must come from.
RSS Would you lay emphasis on “my country”?
JT Although Canaan was the promised land, it is here viewed as the land of the Canaanites, answering pretty much to what the Lord found in Israel. It was really the land of the Canaanite, a strange place to Him; so the church comes into view, not as taken out of that land, but out of another; His own land.
AAT I do not know if I am anticipating you in connection with Rebekah — how Isaac was comforted in the response of love there, having lost his mother.
JT That comes in; it is a question of the Lord’s affection being met and satisfied, but, as you say, it is a bit in anticipation. It is very important to get clear where she comes from; not only what stock she belongs to, but where she comes from.
JNH Do you see there the thought of the “better country” [p. 104] that Abraham looked for?
JT Not quite that.
JNH I do not quite see your meaning: he was speaking of the country that he had been told to leave.
JT The country in which he dwelt is for the moment regarded as the Canaanite’s country, Genesis 12:6, and 24:3. It is not viewed for the moment as the land of promise. Typical things do not always have the same meaning in Scripture. When he says here, “go unto my country” (verse 4), we have to interpret that from a spiritual standpoint. It was Abraham’s country. When the Lord was on earth the land of Israel was His, but the inhabitants were strangers really; and so in John 12 you get the judgment of the system of things there: “Now is the judgment of this world”; the inhabitants were foreign; there was nothing there out of which the Lord could derive anything for Himself, hence the necessity for a new generation; “my country” I think, refers to heaven.
JP I was thinking how perfectly the gospel of John shows out all you have been saying, because, as has often been remarked, in John’s gospel the Jew is the world morally, and the Lord is seen in the midst of the Jews as a heavenly stranger; how could He derive anything from that scene?
JT It is alluded to in John 3 that no one could witness of heavenly things but He that came from heaven. He was a heavenly Man and “in heaven” morally; and John bears testimony to Him that, “he that cometh from heaven is above all”, John 3:31.
JP “He who has origin in the earth is of the earth, and speaks as of the earth. He who comes out of heaven is above all”, John 3:31.
AAT In what way is it true that Rebekah came from heaven?
JT It is a question of a spiritual application.
[p. 105] All that the church is morally is the product of the Holy Spirit forming us after Christ in heaven.
CA The formation in the saints has a heavenly character.
JB You would attach a good deal of importance to “my country” and “my kindred”.
JT That is it; and John the baptist, who was pre-eminently the earthly minister, recognised that a heavenly Man must take precedence, and he says, “He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom ... rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice”, John 3:29.
JNH I have often thought about Rebekah and her people: literally, they would not represent a heavenly people.
JT The point is, it was Abraham’s country and Abraham’s kindred.
TA Does not Genesis 24:14 characterise the church in a way?
JT It sets forth her grace.
WHF So you see that Rebekah was not only kindred to Isaac, but came from another country — from heaven.
JT That is a point of great importance; none other could be suitable.
WJN It is important, too, when you speak of the church as heavenly, to distinguish between what the saints are as men in flesh and blood, and what they are as formed by the Spirit of God.
JT As formed by the Spirit you are formed after Christ in heaven. The condition made by Elijah in answer to Elisha’s request was that if he should see him when he was taken up he should get the double portion of his spirit; it was conditional, and I believe what is alluded to is that the Spirit is the Spirit of the ascended Man. When Elijah was taken he was taken up, and you may depend upon it, Elisha was on the alert; Elisha had walked and [p. 106] talked with the risen man, but he saw the ascending man.
WJN And as a result Elisha comes out as the heavenly man here.
JT He comes out with a double portion of the spirit of the ascending man, and what followed on that was that the mantle fell. He did not ask for the mantle.
RSS Your point is, that when Elijah passed through Jordan and Elisha with him they are then on the ground of resurrection; but then it was when he saw him ascend that he received the double portion of his spirit. It depends on more than resurrection; that is, on ascension.
JT So that Elisha went back into the land morally from heaven, with the spirit of a heavenly man; and then in addition to that the mantle of Elijah fell from him. Elisha had not asked for that, but it fell from Elijah and Elisha took it up.
RSS I suppose we have a further confirmation of that from the fact that the Spirit has been given by an ascended Christ.
JT That is what is alluded to. As they were gathered together there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind and it filled all the house where they were sitting. “From heaven”. It was something new introduced from heaven, and it filled the house where they were sitting, and sat upon each of them: so that you have the anointed vessel, anointed with the Spirit from heaven.
LTF Was that what Elijah’s mantle typified?
JT The mantle has to be distinguished from the Spirit. The Spirit is what is inside of you, whereas the mantle is outside. The mantle is your dress, that which men see, and in each case it is what has fallen from heaven.
JP It is the heavenly character coming out [p. 107] in the saints.
WB Do you get that in Ephesians?
JT Yes, in chapters 5 and 6, etc. It is what is external.
JB The garments would express the spirit of the man, they are more outward. John the baptist’s clothing is mentioned.
JT The mantle refers to that which was seen in Christ in the gospels.
FL I suppose there is a further point: that upon that which is external comes the anointing of the Holy Spirit which goes down to the skirts of the garments from Aaron’s beard.
JT That would be an additional thought — referring to the Spirit coming from Christ in heaven to the saints on earth.
FL And, I think, a thought of great meaning — the anointing. As to the marriage, the relationship and country, is it not rather interesting to see how much that line of things comes out in Genesis? Sarah’s tent is occupied by Rebekah; following that comes in Keturah, I suppose indicative of the taking up again in a day to come of Israel after the church is removed; and then if we follow on we find that Esau, a profane man, takes wives from the Canaanites which were a grief and sorrow to Isaac and Rebekah, and he took wives from the daughters of Ishmael; he got a near imitation to the real thing; it was kindred to Abraham according to the flesh, but a purely fleshly one. It is what we see around us.
JT Ishmael’s daughters would have the character of “Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children”, Galatians 4:25.
FL Man according to the flesh thought he was getting near the right thing when he took up the natural kindred, but it is very different from going [p. 108] and getting Rebekah from Syria and bringing her to Sarah’s tent.
RSS John 12 refers, you say, more to resurrection.
JT That is what I understand: “Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit”.
RSS That is resurrection.
JT Yes, it involves resurrection.
FL That is a further thought than the resurrection you get at the beginning of the chapter.
JT The scene in the opening verses refers to Israel.
FL It is resurrection brought into view to make association possible.
JT The antitype of Genesis 2. I think you will go with us.
FL Quite, and I suppose it lies at the root of Hebrews 2, “all of one”.
JT But it does not go as far as John 20.
WB Does not association imply ascension?
JT In John it does although in a certain sense Israel will have that place according to the earlier verses of chapter 12: “Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him” (John 12:1); Lazarus being the risen man. Would you go with that?
JP Yes, I would.
JT Israel will have a peculiar place; no doubt the Song of Songs would show that.
FL I suppose the idea of association comes in upon resurrection ground, and then the heavenly position of the church is a further thought than that.
JT Association for us, I think, is only on heavenly ground.
RSS But for Israel not so.
JT No.
JS I was going to ask about the Greeks here:
“Sir, we would see Jesus”. Does it bring in something entirely new, and the Lord goes on to speak about His death, that on the ground of His death the gentiles were to come in?
JT Just so. “The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified”. The Greeks suggested that to Him; they suggested the place He had in God’s counsels as the Son of man; universal dominion belonged to Him, but for the moment He could not take that up; He has to die.
JLJ Do you make a difference between the supper in chapter 12, and His coming into the midst in chapter 20?
JT Chapter 12 refers to the affection found in the remnant of Israel, Mary and Martha and Lazarus forming a sort of picture of the remnant at Bethany; there was affection for Christ and if there is affection for Him you will signalise it in some way; there is something done for Him, so there they made Him a supper; and then the Spirit tells us that Lazarus was one of those that sat at the table with Him. It is an allusion to the last days, when the Holy Spirit will have formed affection for Christ in the earthly remnant, and they will signalise it. The Song of Songs are a great help in that direction, showing the relations between Christ and His earthly bride; the presence of Lazarus points to the fact that they would be in relation to Christ on the ground of resurrection. But in chapter 20 they are gathered as having the testimony of Mary Magdalene.
JP And this was a testimony to ascension as well as a testimony to resurrection.
JB John often anticipates things, does he not?
JT Yes. I believe it is very important to see in chapter 20 that Mary had told them she had seen [p. 110] the Lord and that He had spoken these things unto her. She told them what He had said to her. He had sent her with a message and she delivered the message.
WJN There was not only the message then as to association, but the thought of new relationships came out in it: “unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God”.
JT “I ascend unto my Father”. Not only that the Father was theirs, but that the Father was in heaven. He was ascending to Him.
RSS If you look at the phraseology of the passage critically, is not the point of the passage “I ascend unto my Father”?
JT That is what I think; the emphasis is on ascending.
FL Also that it is equally true that the Lord gives immediate effect to what He had said in the end of chapter 17, in addressing the Father: “I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them” (John 17:26); and so the fulfilment of what you were calling attention to this morning in Psalm 22.
JT But I think it is the Father as in heaven that He declares. He had made the Father’s name known to them as the Jewish remnant.
FL And then He says, “I will declare” (Psalm 22:22); the ascension and the declaration necessarily go together.
JT The thought of ascending gives character to the revelation of the Father in relation to the church, because He had already brought the Father in. He taught the disciples to pray to the Father. The Father will be known undoubtedly in the millennial state of things by the Jews.
FL The whole point from chapter 13 on is that He was going to the Father, and therefore everything that He would do takes character from that; and so the declaration of the Father’s name and ascension go together here.
JT So that it is God known in heavenly relationship as Father.
RSS And was not that the point in connection with Mary: “Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended”?
JT The relations could not be resumed on earth; they were broken, but they would be resumed in relation to the Father in heaven.
CA The fact that He was going to ascend gives the church a heavenly position.
RSS In the company He does not tell her not to touch Him.
JT There is no restriction there. You can see in Genesis 24, the assembly’s place as from heaven; and here also, inasmuch as the saints are viewed as the brethren of the heavenly Man, and His Father is their Father. Abraham said, “go to my land and to my kindred” (Genesis 24:4); the saints are morally from heaven.
FL It is striking that in Matthew 28 the message He sent to the disciples is, “go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me”, Matthew 28:10. It is not “I ascend unto my Father”.
JT That helps us greatly, as showing the difference between the two gospels. In Matthew He does not ascend.
WCR When the Lord was here He told the disciples to rejoice because their names were written in heaven. Was that in anticipation?
JT I think so. Luke does not present the church strictly, but the place that man is to have as showing the excess of grace — a place in heaven.
RML Is that the sense of being enrolled; that is, where they belong?
JT Yes; but John shows the origin of the church as to the stock from whence it springs and the country [p. 112] from whence it has come; so that it is here for the moment in the way of testimony; it graces the house.
CA In that sense the church comes from and goes back to heaven.
JT Just as the Lord, in a sense.
JP In John 20 they rejoiced when they saw the Lord.
WCR In chapter 14 where He says, “I go to prepare a place for you” (John 14:2), is that heaven?
JT I think so, only it is more a question of relationship — “my Father’s house”; but their place would be special.
JHC Do you say His connection with God as Father will be shared by saints in the millennium in the same way as by the church?
JT Not in the same way, but you get “The Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom every family in the heavens and on earth is named”, Ephesians 3:14,15. All the families are in relation to the Father, but the Scriptures show that from the outset God had indicated that there should be something special. This is a question of God’s sovereignty: what is special is reserved for those to whom He pleases to give it.
ST These things agree with what has often come out in connection with John’s writings — that he brings things out of heaven.
JT He brings heaven into view. It is what is heavenly upon earth, but it reverts to its own place.
RSS Would what we are speaking of now help us in our apprehension of the Lord as coming into the midst; that He comes not merely as the risen One but as the ascended One?
JT That is most important; it is the heavenly Man that comes into our midst.
JLJ He brings into the midst all the value of the Father’[p. 113] s name.
JT He does. He brings the atmosphere of the heavens.
AAT Is it possible to come in in resurrection apart from association?
JT It is not possible now because He has ascended.
RSS Many of us may have had difficulty in regard to John 20 as to this point; that, as a matter of fact, between the time that He spoke to Mary and the time that He came to the disciples on the evening of that day, the Lord did not actually go to heaven. But as I understand it, John 20 presents things in the form of a pattern.
JT It does; historically, the ascension took place subsequent to all this.
RSS And we get in this chapter the pattern of that which afterwards took place. He breathed on them; this is also pattern.
JT So that you have to put John 20 and Acts 2 together to get the two sides of the truth. John 20 is an inside view. It really took place in Acts 2, but it is an inside view. Acts 2 gives the outside view; what was apparent.
FL The Scripture is very careful in that respect; it does not say the Lord did not ascend to the Father, but just leaves it; because what is given is the moral force of the thing apart from the question of time.
JT It is not a question of what is historical.
FL It is not a question of time; it has nothing to do with time; it is the moral sense of the thing. I suppose Paul doctrinally refers to this order of things when he says, “if even we have known Christ according to flesh, yet now we know him thus no longer. So if any one be in Christ, there is a new creation”, 2 Corinthians 5:16,17. Doctrinally that is the same idea.
JP I am thankful for the remark as to omitting thought of time, but association comes in in [p. 114] verse 17, and if we accept it as a divine pattern we cannot omit it from what follows; if you omit it from verse 19 you are marring the pattern. It comes in in verse 17, “I ascend”; it is not a question of time; it is brought in in its moral characterising power, if one may speak so.
JT What is here presented in pattern really took place in Acts 2 in a spiritual way, only that this is the inside view of it.
LTF He took that character at that time, the ascended character.
JT Exactly. It is the pattern; but historically, in Acts 1, Christ ascended, and the Holy Spirit came in Acts 2.
ST Does John give us what comes out of heaven?
JS Does not the Lord speak of ascending very early in John’s gospel; “What and if ye shall the Son of man ascend up where he was before?” John 6:62. Ascension is in view from the beginning.
JT Certainly; but in regard to our brother’s remark, what I think comes out in the Scriptures is this, that what goes to heaven comes out of heaven. It is the second Man that came out of heaven.
ST I thought that was the character of John’s writings; he brings things out of heaven.
JT That is it; they are brought into this world for the moment, but they revert back, as I understand it. So, for instance, Revelation 12: the man child is born of the woman, but he belongs to heaven, and therefore he is caught up to God and His throne; and really that includes the assembly.
JB In 2 Corinthians 12, the man in Christ goes to heaven — “caught up to the third heaven”, 2 Corinthians 12:2.
JT It is that kind of a man who goes; you get the third storey there.
RSS Of course, one would speak with great reverence, but even in connection with the Lord [p. 115] Himself in His condition of flesh and blood in the body in which He was pleased to be here, that even did not go to heaven; that is, flesh and blood did not go.
JT He took that condition for a purpose, but as regards His Person; “What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?” John 6:62. You feel it is beyond you; and again in chapter 3, “the Son of man which is in heaven”.
FL So in 1 Corinthians 15:47: “the second man, out of heaven”.
JLJ Do you get the thought in Ephesians 2:10: “we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus”.
JT Quite so. If we are “created in Christ Jesus” we are created in Him as in heaven.
FL 2 Corinthians 5:2; “clothed upon with our house which is from heaven”.
JT And, quoting from the same chapter, as you were saying, “henceforth know we no man after the flesh”, 2 Corinthians 5:16. Paul did not know the Lord after the flesh.
FL This is a verse one would rather have expected to have found in Peter, for instance, instead of Paul.
LTF Does not that mark out Paul clearly from the twelve?
JT He laid hold of Christ as the heavenly Man, and his great commission was to bring in the heavenly bride, not in an external aspect, but according to what she is in her relations to Christ, so he says, “that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ”, 2 Corinthians 11:2.
CA I was going to say what you have before you is a step in advance of what we have been accustomed to. We have taken account of the Lord as a risen Man coming into the midst, but it is the ascended Man.
JT That is clear from this passage.
[p. 116] JB Does not the description of Rebekah, when Eliezer calls her; her beauty and grace and conduct, all indicate that she partly belonged to Isaac?
JT You feel the servant would engage her with Isaac. In Paul you see the energy of the Spirit in gathering out a bride for Christ that he might present her as a chaste virgin. He was in dread of the power of the serpent to beguile the saints as he had beguiled Eve.
FL I think that Paul comes remarkably near to the spirit of Eliezer in that sense, in the spirit in which he goes out to find what belongs to Christ, and the character of his ministry to preserve and keep it so that it should be presented in that way.
JT I think from the way he presents the mystery to us he is the only one who fully answers to Abraham’s servant. In him the energy of the Holy Spirit was seen as answering to Eliezer.
FL And I was thinking with regard to ministry in the present time, that it is a great help to have a proper appreciation of what the bride is really to Christ, and what the thought of Christ is with regard to the bride. I think we thus catch something of the spirit that Paul expressed in the verse you quoted.
ST Is there not a point in Genesis 24 in that the servant is not named?
JT The name is not given. We know who it was, but we do well to note what you say. “Abraham said unto his eldest servant of his house, that ruled over all that he had”, Genesis 24:2. That is, he was the most important servant; the one he could trust most.
RSS Could you help us a little on a point that is very important and comes in in this Scripture we are looking at now; as to how we apprehend the Lord in the midst? We have been saying, this chapter is a pattern of what exists now of the assembly, and if it is a pattern of that, I am sure we want to get the good of the reality of it [p. 117] now.
JT I think chapter 20 is, properly speaking, what you might call the inauguration of the assembly. It presents to us the assembly as inaugurated here upon earth, but as heavenly. If one might use the simile, it is like the king opening parliament. He may open it in person, but then parliament is left to its own resources in a sense; it is organised and has all that is necessary to enable it to carry on its business. It acts for the king, but he opens it. Now I have thought of it in this way, that the king might return at any time; at any rate, I know the Lord has that right. In enacting the laws parliament would have the king’s moral support, for the speech from the throne indicates what is in his mind; and what is done receives his sanction. Although he might not be with them in person, he would be with them morally; and I think that as acquainted with the Lord, any time He would come, we would recognise Him. Due deference would be paid to Him. I believe that the saints, as knowing Him, would pay due deference to His presence. The presence of the Lord is not an imaginary thing. It is real. It is our greatest privilege.
E He is only seen by the spiritual eye.
JT That is true. Not but that almost any one would be affected by the presence of a divine Person, yet I believe that state is requisite in order to enable us to realise His presence.
JB Would you say the assembly is convened on heavenly ground as well as on resurrection ground?
JT I do not quite say that. The assembly is properly brought together by the Lord’s supper, and I distinguish that from gathering together in His Name, in Matthew 18. The Supper, I believe, as has often been said, is the rallying point or means the Lord has for calling us together; 1 Corinthians 11 says so: “When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord’s supper”, 1 Corinthians 11:20. It is [p. 118] easy to see that he implies that it ought to be to eat the Supper. They were not conducting themselves properly, therefore he says, “this is not to eat the Lord’s supper”. But normally the convening of the assembly is to eat the Supper.
RML In what character are the saints there?
JT I think it is as in our wilderness character, as in the scene where the Lord is absent, and because He is absent.
JP And the convening of the saints takes account of the saints in their actual condition, and hence you could hardly say they are convened on heavenly ground.
JT No, we are even in the presence of the world. The Supper is partaken of in the presence of the world. It is testimony.
JP And we are not actually on resurrection ground.
JT But in the Lord coming into our midst the ground is changed. What takes place then is spiritual, and so, in a way, hidden (”your life is hid”, Colossians 3:3), whereas the Supper is outwardly seen by all. It is what we do in a material way, and is therefore under the eyes of the world, but the presence of the Lord is spiritual; that is not seen by the world; “the world sees me no longer”, John 14:19.
JP That changes everything.
AAT What is the occasion of His coming into the midst?
JT The Supper, the breaking of bread.
AAT Then we are in the wilderness up to that?
JT I am afraid to define things too much; the assembly convened is not strictly the wilderness, but it may be regarded as in a contrary scene, and in it we are identified with the Lord’s death. The Lord’s death is an historical fact, which can be taken account of in the world. We come together knowing that [p. 119] the Lord is absent, but then He comes to us, and in His company we may be withdrawn in our minds and hearts from what is contrary; from the consciousness of it.
RSS We are here on the earth, and what we do is under the eyes of the world; it is a testimony; we are connected with the Lord’s death, and we announce that.
JT The Lord is made known to us in the breaking of bread, and that leads to what is heavenly.
RML In what character would the saints be viewed then?
JT As the companions of Christ.
RML And previously more as a redeemed company.
JT Just so; those who have benefited from His death. We are His disciples. The disciples came together to break bread.
AAT How long does the Lord remain with us in the midst?
JT I do not think we are entitled to say anything about that, but I am clear that what takes place in a material way is under the eyes of the world; the bread, the cup, and the box refer to the wilderness — the place of Christ’s absence.
CA So that any unbeliever in the world can take account of that.
RSS You distinguish between the Lord’s supper and coming together to pray.
JT Any number of the Lord’s people might come together in His name; it may be better that some should be absent, but you cannot have anybody absent in the assembly; it is for all. The Supper is for all, therefore gathering together in assembly refers to the assembly, every member of it.
RSS But in coming together for prayer that is on somewhat different ground; you are gathered in the Lord’s name in connection with His [p. 120] interests.
FL So it should be those who are exercised; they are more concerned about His interests.
TA Is it necessary for each to be in the light that we are as a whole company gathered as one?
JT The Supper helps in that way; it puts us into proper relationship with each other practically.
JB It is the Lord’s supper.
JT The very expression shows us it is not a heavenly position.
EH Does the thought of new creation come in there at all?
JT The thought of new creation brings in the land. It is in the fact of new creation that we are able to join Him. You are risen together with Christ in Colossians, but you are also quickened; it is in virtue of being created anew in Christ that we have moral power to join Him.
WHF In connection with coming together to remember the Lord, it is what we do; we come together to break bread; we come together as brothers and sisters, and after that is over things are rather connected with the Lord as Head.
JT Yes.
Rem And this produces worship.
GAH Would you make a difference as to a hymn before and after the breaking of bread?
JT You have to do with the Lord before, and the thought of righteousness comes in: the box is therefore right; it is in relation to our position here in this world. Many may participate in that who do not pass over to the other side, because the other side depends on a state formed by the Spirit.
RML At the outset, before the breaking of bread, would you speak of forgiveness and such like?
JT [p. 121] It might not be out of place.
GAH Nor a hymn not connected with purpose so much, but more with redemption.
JT And having reference to the Lord personally and His rights over us; His rights of love.
JB Mr. Stoney used to say you greet the Lord with a song.
WCR Does not the actual breaking of bread and partaking of the cup especially bring the Lord before us, as in Luke 24?
JT I think so.
FL That is 1 Corinthians 11; chapter 10 is more our side.
JT The Corinthians were not celebrating the Supper in an orderly way; therefore the apostle says, “this is not to eat the Lord’s supper”, 1 Corinthians 11:20. It should be carried on in an intelligent and spiritual way. Paul says, he received it from the Lord, and what he received was what the Lord did in the presence of His disciples.
AF Is it not the love that led Him into death that comes before us?
JT You love Him and so feel His absence; you want Him to come again; He has promised to come to us.
FL As a figure, Mephibosheth would help us. If he knew a place where he could meet David quietly, and David could come there I think he would have been delighted. He was there all the time in the sense of the absence of David: we have a sense of the absence of the Lord. He has appointed a place where we can come and meet Him, and we are delighted to do it.
RSS You said a little while ago that in regard to the apprehension of the Lord’s presence the question of state came in.
JT I think the convening of the assembly includes all the saints. You could not exclude any [p. 122] believer from the assembly because in the mind of God it includes all. I am speaking now according to the normal conditions, as at Corinth; but then many may come and yet on account of not being quickened by the Spirit, there is no ability to leave seen things. The assembly properly realised is out of view; it is spiritual, and many are not morally strong enough to abstract themselves from what is seen and to enter on the unseen.
CA So it is of great importance that we should desire to be great enough to enter into that.
WJN From the moment that the bread is broken; that is, when things are in a normal condition, you would say the Lord takes the place of Leader.
JT He must if he comes in. Every right minded believer recognises that Christ must take precedence.
WJN Till then it is more the Lord on our side of things.
JT Yes.
WB What are the restrictions which prevent many believers taking part in the Lord’s supper? We do not see them all together.
JT The restrictions are clearly indicated in Corinthians. If a man is participating in evil he cannot be allowed to participate in the Supper. But then there are those whose privilege it is to partake of it, and they do not partake of it, and that is a very solemn thing for them.
FL I think in the present day that it can all be summed up in two words; ignorance and moral state. Every believer could break bread, but for his ignorance or his moral condition. They are the only two things [p. 123] I know of.
JT And you feel their absence, do you not?
FL The older I grow the more I feel it. I used to think I had got the right company; now I feel a great part of the right company is not there.
RSS “He shewed unto them his hands and his side”. What is the application of that now?
JT I take it to be the marks of His death; the proof of His love; the way He makes known His love to us.
RSS Would that be expressed in the loaf and the cup?
JT I think so.
RSS They form a double witness in that way; His hands and His side.
E What does John 6; eating His flesh and drinking His blood; have reference to?
JT I think that is a question of life for the individual. It is not a collective thing.
RSS Evidently the Lord’s purpose in showing His hands and His side was that they might identify Him.
JT That is it; as the very One who died; He makes Himself known to them in that way. They could not doubt it was He.
RSS I think the Lord would now identify Himself to us.
JT And does He not do that in some way? There is some indication that it is He Himself and not another.
RSS I would like help on that.
FL In John’s gospel is there not a special meaning in the side being mentioned? the blood and the water came out of His side.
JT It was out of Adam’s side that the rib was taken, out of which Eve was formed.
FL In John’s gospel the soldier pierced His side, and “forthwith came there out blood and water”, John 19:34.
[p. 124] We do not get that in Luke’s gospel. It is His hands and feet there.
JT I believe that John gives us the last Adam.
FL I was thinking of John’s epistle in connection with it.
JT I have no doubt as to the side of Christ, we have been taken out of it; we are formed out of it.
RSS I do not expect there is anything greater for us, in a spiritual way, than apprehending the Lord’s presence, and I am sure where there is desire in that direction that the Lord would immensely help. You feel as though He wants to be known, to be identified, to be recognised by His people, and I am sure He would respond to every simple desire in the simplest way.
JT And He would not disappoint affection. In the Song of Songs He came to the bride, and she was not ready and He withdrew.
RSS I think sometimes saints get a little discouraged on this line, and think there are others who are more up to it, and they are troubled about it, but I am sure that as apprehending the Lord’s thought and heart for you He greatly encourages you in responding to it.
JT At the same time the Lord would gratify our expectation. It is a very holy expectation, that we should look for the presence of the Lord in the midst of the gathered company, and He would always answer such an expectation.
WHF J.N.D. said we should know when the Lord comes in and when He goes out. And Mr. Stoney remarked he knew when the Lord went out, but it was not so easy to tell when He came in. I believe the importance of the truth that we have under consideration now is very great.
JT How are the saints to be maintained in heavenly garb? It is only by coming into contact with a heavenly Person. It is not merely by knowing [p. 125] Him by faith as presented in the gospel; you have to come into contact with the heavenly Man, and the presence of the Lord in the midst of the assembly imparts the heavenly character to us.
TA For the soul that is bound up with Him in affection there never exists any distance in a certain way.
JT No, in a certain sense; but there is something special for the assembly, and that is the presence of the Lord. I believe that the book of Numbers presents a heavenly people upon earth, and one injunction was that there should be a ribband of blue attached to the borders of their garments, showing that the testimony in the wilderness was to be heavenly, Numbers 15:38.
FL I think what you were saying about not knowing the Lord as by faith in the midst is very important. We have often heard that the Lord is there by faith; that does not do. We do not know it by faith only.
JT No, it is a real Presence.
JNH And it is important to see that Matthew 18 would not be the same thing.
JS Would you say a word on John 20:22; “he breathed on them”?
JT It is presented in relation to His Person; that He is the last Adam.
JP The disciples were quickened into His own life to enjoy the association which the Lord established.
JT Breathing the Spirit of that heavenly Man is a wonderful thing.
Ques Does the Lord not come till the breaking of [p. 126] bread?
JT The Lord is Sovereign and you can never restrict Him; but I do say that the assembly convened is the place in which you would expect Him to be; and you have scripture for saying, “he was made known to them in the breaking of bread”, Luke 24:35.
JNH If I understand you, the assembly convened is to break bread. That would confirm what has been said, that there are no other assembly meetings, strictly speaking.
JT I think the assembly is properly convened to break bread.
JNH So when the disciples came together they came together to break bread. It is often used in connection with prayer and the reading meeting.
FL You would not say the assembly is only convened at the breaking of bread; there are abnormal circumstances; the trumpet might sound and the congregation be gathered together for something special; for discipline, for instance: 1 Corinthians 5.