ASSEMBLY ORDER
[p. 422] ASSEMBLY ORDER
Ques Will you tell us the difference between the aspect of the assembly as presented here, and the way in which it is presented in John?
JT I think John presents it from the spiritual point of view; that is, what the assembly is as formed by the Spirit, and its inner privileges; whereas Corinthians presents it in its external character as that in which the divine order is seen here in this world; so that the apostle makes a point of what the outer world might see in the assembly. Therefore he says; “Let all things be done decently and in order”.
Rem It is manifestly on a lower plane than John 20.
JT Yes, I think so. Corinthians is the assembly of God viewed in its local character as that in which divine order is displayed. In that way I think Corinthians corresponds with the book of Numbers.
Ques Will you explain that a little?
JT Well, the book of Numbers sets forth the testimony in the wilderness. The wilderness may be divided into three sections. The first section is what the people under God had known as pure grace, as having been delivered by Him out of Egypt. Then followed the legal period; that is, the people under law; and lastly, the people are viewed typically as having the Spirit. This latter is prefigured in the book of Numbers from chapter 21 onward.
Ques Would that answer to Romans 5 to 8?
JT No. Romans does not give us the collective side, whereas Numbers does. The book of Numbers is in relation to the tabernacle, and the priesthood, and [p. 423] the Levites.
Ques Does this chapter give us the assembly in function?
JT It contemplates the assembly as convened, and shows the order and operations that are there.
Ques Will you give an outline of what leads up to this, from chapter 11?
JT Well, I think that, the details will all come in in their right place if we see that it is the assembly viewed as established here under the eye of the world, and not the assembly viewed in its heavenly relationship as in John 20. So the apostle speaks of the Jews, and the gentile, and the assembly of God. It was a very great thought with God that He should have His assembly.
Ques Do you mean that here it is what the world can take account of?
JT Yes; it could be taken account of as an institution set up here, apart from the world morally, but in the presence of the world.
Rem In contrast to that which is purely the work of the Spirit of God, as under God’s eye.
JT Yes, just so; that is more John’s line; he presents the inside view, whereas in Corinthians it is the outer aspect; what is under the eye of the world.
Rem The inner must be right first, before there can be anything outward.
JT You see, it is one thing to be here, in this world, under the grace of God; that is the wilderness position up to Exodus 19. It was all a question of pure grace, and a very wonderful period. But then, if God is going to have an organisation in the presence of the world, there must be a rule; and the collective testimony stands related to the law. I am not referring to the law now merely as that which brings the knowledge of sin. The law is really a type; it was the declaration of God’s rights, and the tabernacle was set up in connection with [p. 424] the law, and the book of Numbers depends on the tabernacle; so that the collective testimony in the types stands related to the law. Now, I think that what answers to that in the New Testament is the first epistle to the Corinthians.
Rem There we get God’s order for His house, and God’s order has to be observed.
JT Yes; so that this epistle is what you may call “the law of the house”. The order that is spoken of here is not for heaven, and it necessarily terminates; but what we have in the gospel of John is eternal.
Ques Does not verse 37 confirm what you say — “If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord”?
JT Yes. We cannot suppose that God would have a system of things here without rule.
EJMcB Government is a great principle with God.
JT Yes; so that one prominent feature in Solomon’s temple was the cherubim, not only in the holiest of all, but also upon the walls and upon the doors. The cherubim, I think, represent God’s government; the holiness of God is seen in the seraphim.
EJMcB Will you say a word on the object of the assembly in this character?
JT Well, it is a provisional order of things filling up the interval between the ascension of Christ from the earth, and His appearing in glory. It is established in the way of testimony; that is, God’s order is to be displayed under the eyes of men before it is displayed literally in the heavenly city. So that here, it may be noticed, the apostle is concerned about the impression made on those who are without. For instance, if anybody came [p. 425] into the assembly and went out again, he would report what he saw inside — he would have to confess “that God is indeed amongst you”; and he would gather that by observing the order that was found there.
EJMcB Because that there was inside that which was for the believer and also for the unbeliever.
JT Yes, the unbeliever is supposed to be able to take account of what is of God there; so that he is convicted; he is impressed that God is there. I think that is a great point.
Rem A brother here told us, some time ago, about a person being exercised about the truth, who heard through another of a little meeting near the place where he lived, and he said, ‘I cannot say much about it, but what struck me was that God was there’.
JT So that the great thought to lay hold of in that regard, is that it is God’s assembly. That is, it is not man’s; it is the sphere in which God is dominant. Hence the importance of the instructions that the apostle gives; and he intimates that the injunctions which were to govern the Corinthian assembly were to govern all the other assemblies; so that you have what one might call a catholic system; that is, the government is the same universally.
EJMcB So that order is of great importance, because God is a God of order.
JT “God is not a God of disorder but of peace, as in all the assemblies of the saints” (verse 33).
Ques What part of Corinthians answers to the second part of the book of Numbers?
JT The second part of Numbers is not a type of the epistle to the Corinthians, but I think that up to chapter 20 it is. What we see there is the tabernacle and the people set in relation to it; every male in the camp was taken account of “from twenty years old and upward”, Numbers 1:3. I take that to represent believers as having the Spirit. Each was to pitch by the standard of his father’s house.
Rem I suppose that each was taken account of according to divine wisdom?
JT Well, I think the age of manhood has reference to one who has the Spirit. The age of thirty would allude probably to the effect of the Spirit. In the book of Numbers what is striking is the order in which everything is arranged.
Rem And all in accordance with God who dwelt there in the tabernacle.
JT It was a very great sight to behold a company of that magnitude all controlled in relation to the tabernacle.
Ques In that way would you view what we have here as the instructions following on chapter 11?
JT Well, I am speaking of the epistle as a whole. What I would like to make clear, if I can, is the setting of the epistle. The assembly is not viewed here in its heavenly privileges, but as the sphere of God’s government and order in the presence of the world during the absence of Christ; Israel, where these testimonies were, being forsaken.
Rem The assembly is here in testimony for God?
JT Yes, it is God’s assembly in contrast to what man might have. Man had much in the city of Corinth, but God had introduced something for Himself into Corinth, and that was His assembly.
EJMcB I think what would confirm that in one’s mind is that no unbeliever could enter into what the other side, John 20, involves.
JT The doors are shut against him.
EJMcB Yes, I think it is perfectly clear that what is spiritual is entirely shut up to the believer.
Ques Would you connect what you were saying as to the sphere in which believers are viewed here,
with the announcement of His death? “Ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come”, 1 Corinthians 11:26.
JT Yes. I think the announcement is a testimony here where Christ died. It does not say so, but in the context it is clear.
Rem It is a testimony in this world.
JT Yes. Christ was put to death by men, and the fellowship is the fellowship of His death. That places the world at issue with God, and at issue with Christ; and we take sides against it. The world has expressed its estimate of Christ, and we express ours. The death of Christ is the expression of the world’s hatred, but we take account of it in another way; it is the centre of our fellowship.
Rem That would be in chapter 10, would it not?
JT Yes, but it is also alluded to in chapter 11. It says, “ye announce”. I think the point in chapter 10 is to show that the individual member of the assembly is not independent; it is a fellowship.
EJMcB We might say to one that others are involved by what he does.
JT Yes, in that respect chapter 10 shows that no individual member of the assembly can do what he pleases in the world; and chapter 14 shows that he cannot do what he pleases in the assembly. So that in either case it is to set aside independency. Even if you have gift, your gift does not warrant you to be independent, for it is not given for you, but for the assembly.
Ques Would chapter 10 be the individual side, and chapter 11 the collective side?
JT The point in the former is that you are to behave yourself outside when your brethren are not looking at you. The question is, Are you an honest man? You have committed yourself to a fellowship, and you are where, perhaps, your brethren cannot see you. In the assembly they can see what you are [p. 428] doing, and what you are saying; so that the test is put to us as to whether we are going to be true men.
Rem If we are not true outside we cannot be true inside.
Ques Does not this fellowship exclude the world?
JT Yes, surely. I suppose an individual who links himself with the world really links the company with the world. That brings in another question, and that is, if you are not true you have to do with more than the saints, you have to do with Christ. So the apostle says — “Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?” 1 Corinthians 10:22. You may provoke brethren for a while, but if you provoke Christ, He will overcome you; you will come to grief. I believe that the christian world is at issue with Christ in that way. They have taken His Name, and they are not true to it, and hence He is jealous, and “jealousy is cruel as the grave”, Song of Songs 8:6. So that the Lord has power, and it will go ill with christendom in time. The Lord has long patience; He waits long; but whether it be against the individual or the system, the Lord is bound to overcome. In meetings where there is looseness of walk and independence, the brethren may have to bear with it long, and perhaps have not the power to deal with it, but in the end it is as sure as can be, that the person involved finds himself in a position which everybody discerns to be the judgment of the Lord.
EJMcB I suppose that is seen in the expression, “For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep”, 1 Corinthians 11:30.
JT That is in regard to conduct in the assembly, but the principle is true. It is most serious to link up Christ with the world; it is connecting Him with [p. 429] what is idolatrous.
EJMcB What you have been saying is very solemn, that you move about in a sphere where your brethren cannot see you, but where the Lord takes account of you.
Rem The world we know is the religious world.
JT Well, the religious world is the Babylonish world. “Pure religion” (James 1:27) is all right, but if it is divorced from Christ it is Babylonish.
EJMcB Is there any other world now?
JT I think it was the Babylonish world that the people of Israel suffered from after they left Egypt. “I will transport you beyond Babylon” (Acts 7:43); came in after the golden calf, and we know that Balaam came from that direction, and the goodly Babylonish garment was in Jericho. These are elements of the Babylonish world. The people thought of going back to Egypt; but they did not go back to Egypt, they went to Babylon. I do not think that christendom intends to go back to the world in that sense; it is too proud for that. It would not go back into naked paganism, because the light of christianity has added immensely to the world, and it takes the assumption of being superior to anything that ever existed before.
Rem To maintain the order you have been speaking of, you must have the “love” which is set forth in chapter 13. Gift in itself will not maintain it. Is not that why chapter 13 is put between chapters 12 and 14?
JT The machinery could not run properly without chapter 13; it is like oil.
Rem Chapter 14 begins by saying, “Follow after love”.
JT If we follow the teaching of the chapters, I think the eleventh sets Christ before the affections, and the twelfth is the activity of the Spirit in ministry showing how He operates in the gifts; and then the thirteenth is that which all may have. It will [p. 430] not do to say that such and such an one has not much gift, or that he has gift; the question is, what have you? There is no reason why each one should not have something. It is a poor thing to depend upon those who have gift; the question with each should be, what have I?
Ques Do you think gifts are to be acquired? It says, “Covet earnestly the best gifts”, 1 Corinthians 12:31.
JT I think desire divinely produced, qualifies us for the gift, and God bestows the gift accordingly.
Ques What would be the “best gifts” the apostle refers to?
JT That is the gift of prophecy, as the apostle shows. The point is, what can I make most use of for the edifying of the assembly; so that if you have not what is treated of in chapter 13; that is, love, gift is only a detriment.
Ques And the whole point in chapter 14, I suppose, is edification?
JT Yes, that is the point; so that the apostle says he would rather speak five words to edification than a thousand in an unknown tongue. The assembly is an organism, and each member of it is essential to it; so the question for each is, What can I do?
Ques I was thinking of the verse in Ephesians 4, which says, “unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ”, Ephesians 4:7.
JT That shows that each has something, and what he has is according to the wisdom and giving of Christ.
Ques How do you understand “according to the measure of the gift of Christ”?
JT It is according to Christ’s measure; you have nothing to complain of. Then there are specific gifts which He gives to certain ones who are qualified, and that also for the edifying of the assembly.
Rem You would say that He gives what each [p. 431] vessel can hold; it is according to His giving. He would not give anyone that which he would not be able to hold.
JT No, He gives according to the capacity. Now, the question in chapter 14 is, as to the part you take in the assembly.
Ques Is it the assembly in function?
JT Yes, and the point is that you are to act intelligently.
Rem Such as on the first day of the week?
JT Yes, or at any other time, as when we are together for ministry. The wonderful thing is that God has brought into this world a company of persons spiritually intelligent, so that when they come together everything is done in order and intelligence. There is an intelligent faculty in the assembly which is self-governing, so that although there is no president, there is no irregularity and no disorder. The world knows nothing of that.
Rem The assembly has the mind of Christ.
JT Yes, the thinking faculty of Christ.
Rem That was fully seen at the outset.
JT Well, we ought to walk in the light of it now. If a brother takes the whole meeting, that is not intelligent, because we should recognise that the assembly of God is composed of individuals, and the clerical idea is foreign to it. There may be others there who have something to say; something which the Lord would like to hear, and which the saints would like to hear.
Rem Then there is also the thought of the spirits of the prophets being subject to the prophets.
JT Yes, a person might say; ‘I could not help getting up, I was pressed’. But the point arises, Is it the time for it? If what you have is from the Lord, it will not go from [p. 432] you.
Rem It will be improved, most likely, next time.
JT Yes, I do not think that divine things are harmed for being kept.
Rem I suppose the coming together contemplated in this chapter would be more for the object of profiting from the gifts; it would be distinguished in that way from the meeting on the Lord’s day, I suppose.
JT I think it is. It supposes the whole assembly “come together into one place”, and one has a tongue, another an interpretation, and so on. I take it they have these things before they come, whereas the assembly proper, as coming together, is simply for Christ.
Rem It is a question of what He will do.
JT Yes, you are waiting on the Lord. But here it is supposed that you have something; and the question is, What are you going to do with what you have? How are you going to use it? So the great point that is emphasised is that we should act intelligently.
Rem The apostle is not deprecating what they had, but regulating it.
JT Quite so. I have carried things for months, and I think we should all until there is an opportunity to give it out. If it is an opportune time, give it out; but the point is, you are not to give it out simply because you have it.
EJMcB I take your thought to be that whilst we should be always in a state to help one another, what we have should be used intelligently, so that it should be spoken at a time when it is to the best advantage.
JT Yes; we all go out and gather something “in hunting”, Proverbs 12:27. Encountering the world is no detriment to us if we are with God; it is really exercise that helps us spiritually. In the exercise you have gathered up something in regard to Christ, and in [p. 433] time you will have the opportunity of giving out what you have gathered, and then it will help the whole company; so that your very exercise contributes to the welfare of the whole assembly.
Rem You said that what you get will not suffer by being kept; but will you not suffer if you have it and do not use it?
JT Well, the Lord is very gracious; if you miss one opportunity He will give you another. The Lord is very patient; and your keeping it will tend to give you all the more exercise.
Rem What is the thought of a “psalm” in verse 26?
JT A psalm is the outcome of experience.
Rem It is not giving out a hymn.
EJMcB I suppose a psalm is something you have learned of God in your ways here?
JT Yes, the Psalms are expressions of experience. The book of Psalms is a wonderful book in that way; they rise sometimes to the height of Christ’s experience.
Ques Do you think this refers to the book of Psalms?
JT No, I do not think so, unless you found in the Psalms what expresses your experience, and that is doubtful. I think a psalm is the mode of expressing your experience, so that in that way it is your psalm.
EJMcB “Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs”, Ephesians 5:19.
Ques You do not get prayer and worship here. Why is that?
JT I think because here it is what is external. It is what comes before the eyes of the world that is set forth in this chapter. The apostle is not deprecating the Spirit; you cannot set Him aside, but “the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets”. In other words, a man is greater than [p. 434] his spirit. If a man does not see it to be quite the right time to do something, he does not do it.
Rem Then you would say it involves spiritual intelligence.
JT Yes. Then in verse 34 he gives a word to the sisters. If you are exercised, and it is well that you are, it is commendable; but the assembly is not the place to bring into evidence your relationship with your husband. The relation between husband and wife belongs to the home; hence if you want to ask anything, it is to be done at home.
Rem Will you say a word as to the expression “in the assemblies” in verse 34?
JT I suppose it is the assembly as known in this world. It is not according to God’s order that a woman should be speaking there.
Rem This chapter contemplates the saints “in assembly”, and the order and rule that should be seen there, does it not?
JT Yes, I think it does; the chapter supposes what goes on in the assembly when it is convened. It is the place for the exercise of gift.
Ques Are the gifts here permanent?
JT They are permanent in the sense that they continue while the assembly is here.
Ques Should not the gifts act when we are together?
JT Yes, I think so; if you recognise the Spirit, He is sure to act. But then we have to be sure that it is the Spirit, and the test for that is that the ministry recognises Christ in every way. A gift is a most valuable asset to the assembly, and any company where there is gift has an asset which it ought to appreciate.
[p. 435] Rem What we should seek is what is spiritual, because as you were saying the other day, “God is a spirit”, John 4:24.
JT Yes.
Rem The gifts were given so that all might profit.
JT The early part of the chapter shows the working, so to speak, of the organism; and that the gifts are subordinate to the whole; but then they have their own distinctive place, and God has set them in the assembly; but in their operation they must not be independent; they are set in relation to the whole company.
Rem There could be no such thing as clericalism if that was observed.
JT No; I think this chapter would be a remedy for clericalism. The point is that it is the same Spirit; so that there should not be any schism or division.
Rem Would you say that the Lord’s day morning is not the time for the exercise of gift?
JT Yes. I think the Lord’s day meeting ought to be simply for Christ. The assembly is for Christ; the exercise of gift is more for us, though I would not deny that what we have in this chapter is a continuation of the first day of the week.
Rem You mean, we might have a meeting like this in the middle of the week; but the assembly goes on.
JT Yes, I think that the week is a symbol of the whole period of christianity, and we begin afresh every Lord’s day; so that all that follows in the week ought to have its beginning on the Lord’s day. One would not like to say much about these things, but the more spiritual we are, I think, the more we should seek to get something fresh every week that would give character to the whole week.