READING
[p. 389] READING
Rem I suppose this chapter is in view of the testimony?
JT Yes, testimony during the Lord’s absence; and the Lord’s words to His disciples in chapters 13 and 14 were calculated to impress upon them His great interest in them. Chapter 13 shows us how we are to act towards one another; that is, the Lord indicates the spirit in which we are to act one towards another, and as that spirit is acquired among the saints you have an element of sustenance. There are various elements of sustenance which these chapters indicate, and I think one element is that there is to be mutual affection. As the Spirit of Christ is apprehended and acted upon there is an element of sustenance, which is of great value during His absence.
EJMcB It seems to be all intended to have a great effect upon our hearts.
JT We all know that in natural things a family spirit has great weight with us. We know how families are inter-dependent. It is a very beautiful thing to see family affection and family interest, and we know how that where things are right naturally, the spirit of affection is an element of mutual sustenance. I think that is the point in chapter 13. Then, I think, the first half of chapter 14 is objective; that is, the gain of having Christ as a Man in heaven. He knows exactly what we are going through upon earth, and He is to be the Object of our faith in heaven. He says, “Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me”. In spite of all outward failing and breakdown, the Lord’s provision for His own remains; Himself as an Object of faith — the Son;
[p. 390] and the place He is preparing for us in the Father’s house — the saints’ eternal home. Then the second half of the chapter would be the provisional arrangement, or order of things, which the Lord has instituted here whilst He is away. It is His provision in view of His absence. The Spirit’s presence down here for ever. Then the unconditional promise, “I will not leave you orphans, I am coming to you” (verse 18). Then the conditional promise to those who keep His commandments and His words where declension has set in. Where these conditions exist the Father and the Son find out that soul. Christ manifests Himself to him and divine Persons make their abode there. These divine manifestations are realised in the power of the Spirit.
EJMcB You get that side of things with the thought of Comforter.
JT Yes, the presence of the Comforter here, and the things which depend upon it; divine manifestations, etc. In the Old Testament divine manifestations and activities were largely in connection with angelic agency; as, for instance, in the case of Abraham, but now all is changed. Angels are not used in that way. There are angels sent forth to “minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation” as Hebrews 1 shows; but all direct communications now are dependent upon the Spirit. So that the gain of the Spirit is enlarged upon in the second half of chapter 14.
EJMcB Would the gain of the Spirit in the second half of the chapter lead you into what is the true objective side of things in the first half?
JT Yes, I think they run together; as our brother was saying at the outset, the point in view is the testimony. They were to be interested in His things whilst He was away, and there would be serious difficulties to encounter. But He encourages their hearts by saying, “Let not your heart be troubled”. He shows really that His going away would be in their favour, and that they would be infinitely superior to their surroundings. So that these are assembly chapters. They have reference to our position here ecclesiastically; and the Lord shows what resources we can count upon. If He were to continue here personally all these considerations would not be needed, but He is not to be here, for chapter 13 begins with the thought that He is to depart out of the world to the Father.
Ques What do you mean by ecclesiastical position?
JT Well, I mean church or assembly position; that is, it is a question of persons left here together who love Christ, who have the Spirit, and who are to look after His interests while He is away.
Rem You mean the company is taken account of?
JT Yes; what I see is that if there is a head of a family, every right-minded member of that family would do all that is possible to maintain what is the mind of the head. The Lord assumes that here, that each one would be interested, and He shows what would be available to such. If your heart is interested it is an immense thing to see the things that are available here on your behalf.
Rem So that the presence of the Spirit is of the greatest moment.
JT One great essential feature in those who form the assembly is mutual affection. The Lord says, “that ye love one another, as I have loved you”, John 15:12. So that we have to consider the kind of love the Lord manifested to His own — that is the kind of love we are to express to each other.
Ques Did not that mark the company to which the Spirit was sent?
JT I think the company Christ left here manifested a most touching character. The only authority they had to go by when He left them was the [p. 392] Scriptures; and the Spirit shows in Acts 1 that they were engaged with the Scriptures, and in prayer. They were together, and united; so that Acts 1 shows that the company to which the Spirit came was morally suited to receive Him.
Rem You would say God had prepared a vessel for the reception of the Spirit?
JT Yes; I think so. And what the assembly began with is what is to continue afterwards. You cannot associate the Spirit with anything that does not recognise the authority of the Lord; because Christ here connects their love and the keeping of His commandments with the gift of the Spirit.
Ques Why is He called the Spirit of truth here?
JT Well, I suppose it is in contrast to the spirit that is in the world. It is an immense thing to have the Spirit of truth, because if He is allowed His place everything is recognised in its true relation. Everything is adjusted by the Spirit of truth. What really came out in the assembly was that every divine institution had its place and recognised value; so that God’s world took form in that way.
EJMcB Would not that be the maintenance of the primary thought of God?
JT Yes; things in the world are not true. The idea of truth, I think, is set forth in the principle that builders recognise. If buildings are not put up on that principle they collapse.
EJMcB Is not Christ, in that way, the full expression of truth?
JT Yes. In Christ’s ministry everything was adjusted; everything got its true place according to God. You will find that in the discourses of the Lord everything was adjusted. So that now the Spirit has come into the assembly to have that maintained livingly here. Thus in his first epistle John tells us the Spirit is the truth.
EJMcB That would help one, because if [p. 393] you look only at the ways of God you might not arrive at the truth; but what we have now is the Spirit of truth.
JT I think the idea of truth is, that everything is adjusted according to God’s mind. Everything in the moral system is out of joint, but when Christ appeared, in so far as His ministry went, everything was set in order. And so the coming in of the Spirit is the establishing of the principle of God’s world. Every divine institution has its relative place, and is recognised according to its true value. Take marriage, for instance: marriage is a divine institution. In Christ it has its proper place; Moses allowed divorce, but that was on account of their state. It is not really according to the truth to allow divorce. Hence Christ did not admit of it. He says, “From the beginning it was not so”, Matthew 19:8. So that the further the world gets away from God the greater disregard it has for divine institutions. But the presence of the Holy Spirit is that everything is maintained in its true relation.
EJMcB So that we have to go back to the assembly to get the testimony of what is of God.
JT Yes.
Ques In what way would you connect the ministry of Paul with what you are speaking of now?
J’T. Well, the ministry of Paul really comes in later. It comes in in chapter 16. There it is said that, the Spirit would take of the Lord’s things, and would show them to us; but in chapter 14 He would remind them of all that Christ taught. The conditions to which the Spirit came afford one of the most interesting considerations. I believe saints are too loose in regard to the Spirit. You cannot connect the Spirit with what is morally unsuitable to God.
Rem “Whom the world cannot receive”.
JT Quite so.. The Spirit is far more jealous as to what is due to God than we are liable to think. Take all the activity in the evangelical world, as it is called; but then you cannot connect the Spirit with what is not true.
Rem He is called the Comforter.
JT The point is “another Comforter”, that is, the Lord’s place would be taken up by Another. If we had been acquainted with the Lord as the disciples were, we would have an appreciation of this. Many of us do not miss the Lord at all. We do not feel that there is a great blank in the world; but you miss your father and mother when they are removed, because there is a link of affection there. If we loved the Lord more we would miss Him.
Rem We are tested in that way.
JT Yes, I think we are.
Rem Was the coming of the Comforter provisional?
JT Yes; only He remains with us for ever. He takes the place of Christ whilst He is away, but while Christ is present the Spirit recedes. That is not derogatory to the Spirit, because the Spirit always makes Christ prominent. He always remains with us, but there are circumstances in which the Spirit of God is prominent, as, for instance, in the beginning of Acts. Peter’s explanation was that “this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel”, Acts 2:16. He says that these men were not filled with new wine; they were filled with the Spirit. There are conditions in which the Spirit is prominent and there are conditions in which Christ is prominent. When the Lord takes His place in the assembly, He is supreme. Of course, the Spirit is always the power, whether it be of ministry or affection, or praise, or worship; He is always the subjective power. But when the Lord takes His place in our [p. 395] midst it is evident that He must be supreme. But this chapter contemplates the Spirit here and Christ absent.
Rem The host, in Luke 10, was to take care of the man, as the Samaritan had done before.
JT Yes; quite so.
Ques What is the difference between the presence of the Spirit, and the presence of the Lord?
JT Well, the Spirit never presents Himself as an object of worship. The Spirit was to abide with them, “he may abide with you for ever”, John 14:16. The Spirit never leaves us. But the Lord does not say that of Himself.
Rem The Spirit will never leave the assembly.
JT No. He is here instead of Christ.
Rem I mean when the assembly goes.
JT But the Lord comes for the assembly. The Spirit’s office is to take care of it whilst Christ is absent. The Lord does not leave it to the Spirit to take the assembly home; He comes Himself.
Ques What is the force of the Scripture where it is said the Spirit descended like a dove and abode upon Him?
JT It showed that God had now a permanent resting place in Christ; it showed also that Christ was a divine Person. I think the allusion is to Noah’s dove; she could find no rest for the sole of her foot, Genesis 8:9. The Spirit, you may say, found no resting place in the Old Testament; until Christ appeared He found no abiding place.
EJMcB Then, as you were saying, there was a Person who was morally suited to the Spirit.
JT Yes.
Ques What is the difference between the Lord being “amongst you” in 1 Corinthians 14:25, and the Spirit being there?
JT That is God; “God is in you of a truth”, 1 Corinthians 14:25. God is always the supreme Object of worship and veneration. “One body, and one Spirit ... one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all”, Ephesians 4:4,6, and the wonderful fact was that He was in the christian company.
Rem You spoke of the Spirit as being the agency by which everything is realised. Do you mind saying a word more upon that?
JT I remarked what I think is evident, that in the Old Testament God acted generally through the agency of angels; the Spirit was there, but divine manifestations were by angelic agency; but it is not so now. He comes now in a spiritual way. The presence of the Holy Spirit here involves that things are made to depend upon Him. One can readily see that in the Old Testament there were very great limitations, but there are no limitations now.
Ques When the Lord comes in that way now, is it that He comes Himself?
JT Yes, He comes Himself. We must always maintain that the Spirit is not Christ. There is Christ personally, and the Spirit personally. How the Lord may come is another matter; that is left largely for the soul to discover. But He comes in a spiritual way; and the thought of His coming is introduced after the Spirit’s coming is announced.
EJMcB You said that when Christ is prominent the Spirit recedes. I think that is very important.
JT Yes, of course when you get a man speaking in the power of the Spirit it is Christ in a sense; but the Spirit is prominent; that is 1 Corinthians 12; it is a question of the activities of the Spirit.
Rem The Lord is careful to show, in John 20 that it is He Himself, not a spirit, who came to them.
JT Yes; and the fact that the doors were shut shows that it is independent of what is material. The Lord comes in a spiritual way, but He comes.
Rem How would you reconcile Colossians with [p. 397] it? It has often been noticed that the Spirit is not mentioned here.
JT The point, I think, in Colossians is that there was declension; and what the apostle insists upon is Christ, “As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him”, Colossians 2:6. He brings forward Christ almost universally in Colossians, and I think the point was to establish Him firmly in the affections of the saints. God had wonderfully favoured them, because really the gentile is in view there; so he says, “Christ in you, the hope of glory”, Colossians 1:27. It was a wonderful thing for a gentile company to know that Christ was there amongst them.
Ques Would you distinguish that from what we were speaking of in John 14?
JT In Colossians it is not a question of the assembly convened; it is a question of the state of the saints. As the Lord says, “ye in me, and I in you”, John 14:20. We are in His affections, and He is in ours. But this is different from His coming to us. See also 2 Corinthians 13:15.
Rem Is not John 14 a question of the state a good deal?
JT In John 14 the company is in view. The Spirit came to them collectively, we know. They were gathered around the Lord when He was speaking to them here. I think the coming promised in verse 18 was enjoyed collectively. Coming to a faithful individual is spoken of afterwards.
Rem You say there are times when Christ is prominent, and there are other times when the Spirit is prominent.
JT Yes; I think at a meeting like this it is the activity of the Spirit, if there is anything at all. His function is to instruct, and so forth. All is under Christ, we know, but the point emphasised here is “another Comforter”; that is, One who took the Lord’s place. If you take a meeting for [p. 398] prayer: there it is a question of the exercises of the saints engaged levitically; they are bearing burdens. But the idea of the assembly is that it is free and for Christ. But in prayer we are thinking of care, and of needs that exist. We come together for that purpose; hence it is not properly an assembly meeting, because the levitical idea is that people are bearing burdens. Then the Scriptures contemplate other meetings. Jude speaks of “love-feasts” (Jude 12) for instance. The apostle says, “not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together” (Hebrews 10:25); but there is one special occasion that the Scriptures indicate. There is no injunction in regard to the Lord’s day. It is not enjoined; therefore one would not enjoin it on the world. It is no credit to us that the world keeps the Lord’s day: the Lord’s day was never intended for it. It was a spiritual idea that faith laid hold of, and Acts shows that the saints in the early days recognised it in that way. They came together on that day. The Lord set them the example, as in every case. He came to the company on two successive Lord’s days, and the saints, I think, were quick to discern what He had done; and thus they would come together. If the Lord was pleased to come into their midst on two successive Lord’s days, I would say it was well worth while to come together on that day. Besides, He rose from the grave on that day.
Rem It was the resurrection day.
JT Yes. It was a day of immense importance to Him. He honoured it in that way. Many thoughts enter into the first day of the week. The seventh day has reference to the creation, but the first day of the week refers to christianity; there is no end to it. It refers to what is spiritual, and so entirely new.
Rem Would you not say that the Lord counted [p. 399] on their affections, and they would recognise the way He came in?
JT The testimony of the Scriptures is that they were together before He came in. It may have been for a brief moment, but at any rate they were already there. As to the second visit it says, “his disciples were again within, and Thomas with them. Jesus comes, the doors being shut”, John 20:26.
Ques Would you say that the Spirit gathers us together?
JT Yes, I would. But, as loving one another, we come together.
Ques And when we are gathered together in that way by the Spirit, does the Lord come in?
JT I think the Lord would come to us as we are prepared for it.
EJMcB Do you not think that one of the main features with regard to the Lord’s coming is that He comes to those who miss Him?
JT Yes, He comes to those who love Him, and so feel that He is away.
EJMcB You mean He comes to affection.
JT I think if you really want the Lord He will answer to affection. But we must never put the Lord in the position of acting automatically. There are many who seem to think that the Lord must act, but you can never regard the Lord in that position, because He is sovereign, and He always reserves His sovereign rights. Even if He is to come, you can hardly say that He comes even when the conditions are there. He will not disappoint affection; but I put in the provision because many think that because we are together the Lord is there. That will not do at all. You are making the Lord act automatically, and disregardful of the state of the meeting.
Ques Is it to the company He comes?
JT This chapter shows that He comes [p. 400] to the individual. Whatever extremities we may be reduced to, the Lord will not forsake us. If there is only one left, the Lord will come to him; and that ought to be a great stay to our hearts now.
Rem One would see in this chapter the history of the assembly. First of all He comes to the company without a provision; then He comes to the individual who loves Him and keeps His commandments.
JT Because the Lord there assumes that early assembly affections were there. He assumes that they all loved Him, which they did, hence there is no condition stated in verse 18.
Rem You said a moment ago that the Lord comes to the individual; that is not excluding the fact that He comes to the assembly.
JT The point here is that the Lord makes the provision for us no matter to what extremity we are reduced. To anyone keeping His word, He and the Father would come. So that your heart is sustained; no matter how extreme the day, the Lord promises you a visitation.
Rem I am not clear about His coming to the company today.
JT Well, if He comes to one, He can come to two. I do not know that we can take any other ground than that now; that is, that the Lord will come to the individual.
Rem There might be a hundred gathered, and five out of the hundred realise His presence.
JT Yes.
EJMcB In admitting that He comes to the individual, I think it covers the whole point: because if you admit one individual, you can multiply that to any number.
Ques Is it a question of conditions when the Lord comes?
JT Yes. That was why I said the chapter [p. 401] was prophetic; the Lord was casting His eye down upon the whole history of the church; and what He shows is that the individual who loves Him and keeps His words is not deprived of the greatest privileges that the assembly primarily enjoyed.
Ques What is the difference between Matthew 18 and this?
JT Matthew 18 is levitical. Matthew contemplates administration down here in the assembly, and the Lord indicates that even if they were reduced to two or three, He would be with them to support them. But here He is thinking of you, what you need for your affections; not support exactly, but what your heart requires. If you love Him you want to see Him. I quite admit that the Levites did not go inside, even to the first holy place; and of course, prayer really is at the golden altar, not at the brazen altar; therefore you are a priest in prayer, I think. But Matthew 18 contemplates our being gathered in relation to the Lord’s interests, and the promise contained in it always holds good.
EJMcB Do you not get the fact that He comes to the individual beautifully sustained in John, at Patmos?
JT Yes; it was to give revelations, however. But here the affections are fully met. Now, if a person comes to live with you, it is not a question of supporting you, but of enjoying your affections. One might say that because things are so reduced we are deprived of the earliest privileges of the assembly. But the Lord shows that we are not. I think that is an immense thing.
EJMcB If one were in the enjoyment of this individually, would it not be a great stimulant to others; that many more might enjoy it?
JT Yes, I think so. We would seek to get others into it. The idea very much has been to go into the world and convert people. But you want [p. 402] to get people into the assembly. Present-day evangelisation means that if a soul is converted he is told to go back to where he came from. That is what they are told. There is not a bit of heart in that. That does not bring the soul to Christ. It is not the Spirit of Christ, because the Spirit of Christ is that He went to the sheep, and laid it on His shoulders, and brought it home. That is the spirit of the evangelist. I think it is very beautiful to go through Luke, and see the spirit of the true evangelist. He put the sheep on His shoulders, and brought it home.
Ques Would not that be the primary thought of the evangelist?
JT Yes, I think so.
Rem The Father was not satisfied until He had the prodigal inside the house.
JT I do not think the present evangelical activity would be supported a single hour were it not that it builds up the systems of men. Christendom is going to pieces, and the leaders want their systems maintained; and they are very glad to have them maintained in that way. But if it be a question of taking souls to Him, the systems collapse; and so the true evangelists get no support from them.
Rem Yes, because those souls are taken from the system.
JT If one went into one of the churches, and preached separation, and any left, it would to that extent weaken the system.
Ques Will you say a word on verse 20? “At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you”.
JT The Lord, I think, refers to the present moment, the Spirit’s day; when we are conscious of these things; “that I am in my Father”; that is, that He is in His Father’s affections; “and ye in me” I take to mean that we are in His affections.
[p. 403] All that is now known by the Spirit. The fact is that the disciples had a great deal more than they knew about when Christ was here. He says so in this chapter, verse 9; but the presence of the Spirit makes it all evident to us.
Ques What about verse 19? “because I live, ye shall live also”.
JT Is it not a very precious thought that the Lord makes our life to depend upon His life? If He lives, we live. As David said to Abiathar, “he that seeketh my life seeketh thy life”, 1 Samuel 22:23.
Ques Does the Lord give us credit for what we are not really up to?
JT Yes. He does indeed; it is the greatest comfort I know that the Lord views our actions from His point of view. He says of Mary, in John 12:7, “against the day of my burying hath she kept this”. I do not know that Mary understood it, but the Lord understood it; and she understood it afterwards.
Ques What is the difference between verse 15, “If ye love me, keep my commandments”, and verse 23, “If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him”.
JT I think the latter is to encourage the individual.
Rem I was thinking of what the Lord says, “I will not leave you orphans, I am coming to you”. He did not say He was coming to abide.
JT I think verse 23, as I said, is to encourage the individual. The Father and the Son would come. It is an immense encouragement. It is not that He comes to such in circumstances that are strictly individual; He comes to us, to where we are ecclesiastically. The whole point is, where are we in our souls in regard to the testimony? Things have got very small, and very weak; but [p. 404] the Lord is not hindered by that. So that John is exiled on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus; but the Lord came to him there.
EJMcB The Lord contemplates an individual who wants to be true to Him; but things are so low down that there may be only one individual?
JT Yes, I think that is exactly it. I take “our abode” to be the Lord’s way of emphasising what the individual might reckon upon. It is even more than is spoken of in verse 18.
Ques Is that saying that in coming to the company He stays?
JT No; the Lord does not say that They would make Their abode eternally; He simply says that the one who keeps His words would enjoy such a thing as that. The point is that he should enjoy such a thing as the Father and the Son abiding with him. We read elsewhere, “they abode with him that day”, John 1:39.
EJMcB It is referred to in verse 25; “These things I have said to you, abiding with you”. Clearly it did not mean He was going to stay.
JT Yes, exactly. I think the point in it is to show that the individual is wonderfully taken care of; his privilege is even greater than what is stated in verse 18.
EJMcB As things break down on our side, there is an increase on the divine side.
JT Yes, and all for the encouragement of the individual. We have little idea of the way the Father and the Son take account of the present circumstances; and the remarkable thing is that they are similar to the circumstances the Lord found Himself in when here.
Ques Would you confine this thought of the Lord’s coming to the Lord’s day morning meeting?
JT I think we are warranted to connect the assembly in its proper character with the first day [p. 405] of the week. I believe that is correct, if you examine the allusions to the first day of the week in the Scriptures. The thought in the assembly is that we should be free. Now, in the prayer meeting you are engaged with what is levitical. In a meeting like this it is more a question of instruction and mutual edification. It would not do if the Lord were present to be speaking to one another as now; He would do everything. If a man of gift were present he would not use it if the Lord were there.
EJMcB I think we would all feel if the Lord came into the room now, and there were any questions to ask, we should question Him.
JT Yes; now it is the Spirit.
Rem We really touch the assembly in the Supper.
JT Well, that is so little understood; and I am not saying that I am different from others in that, but the assembly in its spiritual character is so little known consciously that it is little understood.
EJMcB I think you will agree with the thought that there is nothing to surpass being where Christ is in supremacy.
JT It is ecstasy.
Ques. Is that possible?
JT I think the allusions to ecstasy in the Scriptures show that the early christians knew what it is. It was not unknown. The assembly is for Christ, and the great thing is to get free; and to be so free that you are for Christ. It is well to recognise that He is for you; but what about His heart? “It is not good that man should be alone” (Genesis 2:18) and God’s thought was that Christ should have the assembly. Sarah dies, and Rebecca is brought into Sarah’s tent; and we are brought into Israel’s place in order that we may be for the comfort of Christ.