READING
READING
WB Would you say that all that has gone before is leading up to chapter 12?
JT This gives us one section of the prophecy; it ends one section, showing that which the remnant is introduced into in the last days; they are in the enjoyment now of what God is to them in Zion. I think that by an examination of the different lights in which the Lord is presented in the previous chapters you can see a double way in which He is known to the remnant; first, as Immanuel, He comes in to meet their condition as needing deliverance; then you get Him in chapter 11 in connection with God’s purpose, “there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse”; and then in verse 10, “there shall be a root of Jesse”. The Spirit refers to the promises in regard to the King, and then subsequent to that the full deliverance of the remnant, which in a way answers to God’s dealings with them at any time. We have to know God in our midst for deliverance.
WHF It will have a present and future bearing.
JT Yes. Then we have to know Christ in connection with divine purpose. What do you say?
JP That is very important. I think these chapters bring out both sides.
WHF Do you not think the point we need to know more of today is Christ on the side of divine purpose?
JT I think so.
WHF On that side you get everything stable.
JT In chapter 11 He is seen in connection with Jesse.
WCR And is there any significance as to chapter 9, “Prince of Peace”?
JT That is the light in which the saints have come to know Him; “unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given”.
FL It is connected with purpose there, is it not? It brings in His government, and peace, and His being established in His kingdom for ever.
JT It is connected with purpose clearly, only it is the Person simply that is before them. They have come to know this Person and to appropriate Him. He is born to them. But in chapter 11 He is viewed in connection with His generation. He is the rod out of the stem of Jesse, and the root of Jesse; showing the human and divine aspects of His Person.
Ques Would you say that is before God as He stood as a Man: God’s purpose in Him as a Man?
JT It is a question of the light in which the remnant come to know Him, and the same holds good with regard to ourselves. In chapter 7 He is announced as the virgin’s Son, who shall be called Immanuel; that is the way God had intervened on their behalf for deliverance. In chapter 8 they recognise Him in that light; He is Immanuel. In chapter 9 they go further, and they take Him to themselves. He is theirs: “unto us a child is born”. It is not a question there of whom He is born; it is not a question of generation, but the Person they have come to know, and then they go on speaking of what should be set forth in Him.
WB What is the difference between the rod and the root, verses 1 and 10?
JT Rod is the Lord as having sprung from that stock; but then the root refers to His deity. Jesse sprang from Him.
FL You get that distinction in the Revelation. In chapter 5 it is, “the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David” (Revelation 5:5) but in chapter 22 He is presented as the “morning star” (Revelation 22:16); when presented to hope and affection it is “the root and the offspring of David” (Revelation 22:16); the two are combined there.
JT [p. 72] In regard to the way in which our souls are brought to know the Lord, chapter 9 is very important. They take account of the Lord as born to them, and then you have what He is; “the government shall be upon his shoulder”.
TA It says in verse 1 of chapter 12, “in that day”. What day does the prophet allude to?
JT That refers to the future. It is a question there of a prophetic word, looking to the day of Israel’s full blessing. But I was endeavouring to point out that in chapter 9 the remnant come to know the Lord personally, “the government shall be upon his shoulder”. I think they say that as a result of their acquaintance with Him. That is, to make a practical application, He has become the governor of your soul. In every way in which the Lord shall be known publicly He is known to the believer’s soul. Here it is not only a prophetic word, but also what He is to them as a Son given to them, a Child born to them.
JLJ How are we brought to know Him in the light of divine purpose?
JT We come to it gradually.
JLJ Were the children of Israel brought to know Him in that light when they crossed Jordan, or at the Red Sea?
JT Here He is known first of all as Immanuel, that is deliverance; but when you come to the expressions, child and son, you have affection in people. You have an expression of relationship; do you not think so?
JP The glory of all relationship is affection.
WCR You say, “the government shall be upon his shoulder” means that He had sway over the soul of the believer?
JT I think so. But then it is the sway of One known in relationship.
JP “Unto us a child is born”.
WCR Why does it say, “upon his shoulder”?
JT The shoulder being the place of strength, He should there sustain the government. We should know this by experience.
JP And there is no real anticipation of what He will be publicly except as that is really known individually in the soul.
JT That is it. You can bear testimony to the world to come only in the measure in which the features of it are entered into experimentally now.
FL The whole realm of power and glory is built up in connection with those who know Christ experimentally. “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me”, John 12:32. It is not compulsion; it is not a law that enforces, but it is attractive power. All that will mark the world to come is worked out in those who are attracted.
JT It is beautiful to see here that they speak from the standpoint of affection. They use terms that intimate that. A child and a son.
FL “Everlasting Father”, “Counsellor”, “Prince of Peace”.
JT It goes on to that. “His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor”. It seems to me that each title given to the Lord here indicates a certain light in which the believer has come to know Him, and I would especially desire that we should get all that is in that verse, viewed from the side of experience.
FL Is not the whole idea of the kingdom of God essentially, that which is brought to pass through the power of Christ and the love of Christ in the soul’s affections? It works that way; that what is effected for Christ in connection with the kingdom is what has been established in the soul’s [p. 74] affections.
JT If you take Simeon in the temple as an example, he had the Child in his arms. He appropriated the Child, as it were. And he appreciated Him. “Unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given”.
FL “Mary hath chosen that good part”, Luke 10:42. “Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee”, John 21:17, is on that line.
JT It is. Then they say, “the government shall be upon his shoulder”. When your heart is drawn to the Person, and you appropriate Him, you gladly accord to Him the place of government. You can never appreciate the thoughts of the Lord’s governorship except as you own Him in your soul.
JP It is affection that leads to the truth of the throne and appreciation of His greatness.
FL You crown Him in the day of His espousals.
JT It is one thing to be subdued by the Lord; it is another thing entirely when you come to view Him as a Child born, as a Son given. Affection is now present, and you gladly accord Him the place of government. This is the light in which the remnant come to know Christ, leading up to chapter 12.
JB Is not this the way the disciples actually did know Him, and that which was afterwards confirmed to them by the Holy Spirit. I mean the way in which He manifested Himself to them in the various gospels?
JT I think the greatness of His Person gradually dawned upon them.
JB But there was no such thing as doctrine, they got to know Christ in this way by what they found in Him for themselves.
JT They came to see that a Child was born and a Son given, and then they recognised His personal glory and all that hung upon that.
JB Do we not learn Him in the same way?
JT That is the point I would like to make clear.
[p. 75] The believer who loves the Lord readily accords to Him the place of government. You give Him all the place. You recognise the Lord in everything. He is your Governor.
WHF Speaking of knowing the Lord, would you take it as the result of coming into touch with the Person?
JT Yes. And you appropriate Him. “Unto us”; not simply born for, or to God, but to us.
JP Appropriation is a step in advance of faith.
JT It is beautiful to see Simeon with the Child in his arms; a figure of the remnant appropriating the Child.
FL We have a number of cases which show how the disciples were formed on earth. When the Lord was going to death in Judea, Thomas says, “Let us also go, that we may die with him”, John 11:16. It showed the reality of their love. They were ready to die with Him.
WB Has this anything to do with the promise to the woman in the garden — the Seed of the woman? There seemed to be some here looking for this Child to be born. Mary was a favoured woman to be the mother of the Child.
JT Only you have to confine it within the circle in which it is found. It is a question of the apprehension of the remnant of Israel. It is not a question of who the mother of the Child was. Mary is alluded to in chapter 7; it is said, “a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son” (Isaiah 7:14); but here the remnant take Him to themselves. It is after He has become known to the remnant that they appropriate Him as theirs, and then seeing Him in that light they see every thought of God centred in Him; the government and everything that they might cherish is secured in that Person.
WB Do you think the disciples with Him in His ministry here discerned that [p. 76] in Him?
JT I think so in measure. Their apprehension was meagre, but the prophetic spirit gives them credit for it.
FL The Lord gives them credit. “Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations”, Luke 22:28; notwithstanding that they forsook Him. You were speaking this morning of the envy of Ephraim. In chapter 11:12,13 we read; “And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim”. No doubt they become one over the Child, and they are formed accordingly.
JT But you see in chapter 9 that, after acknowledging Him as given to them, the first thing they say is, “the government shall be upon his shoulder”; and then, “His name shall be called Wonderful”. The Lord becomes increasingly great in your eyes. I believe it is as you accord Him His place as Governor you discover greater glories in His Person. He is “Wonderful”.
JP He would hardly make this known to a soul that did not accord Him His place as Governor; but if you do you will get present compensation in the apprehension of greater glories.
AAT In christianity does “Lord” correspond with “Governor”?
JT Yes; and you see the wonderful things He does for you; the difficulties that He solves for you; the wonders that He accomplishes for you. But then, as I said, what He does for each individual He will do publicly in a more extended way.
JB Does not verse 7 elucidate governorship?
JT It does in regard to a more extended sphere. “Of the increase of his government and peace there [p. 77] shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever”. That is the coming day of glory for Israel — the throne of David; but notice, the point of view is what the saints see in His Person. It is not simply a question of God announcing these things.
LTF What is “the everlasting Father”?
JT One who cares for you. I think it is a great thing to know the Lord as caring for you. That is very largely the idea of father in Scripture.
AAT I suppose it is appreciation of these things that marks them off as the remnant.
JT No doubt. You get government, and then that He is Wonderful, and then Counsellor, and He takes the place of Father for us.
WCR The mighty God.
JB There were some that said, “We will not have this man to reign over us” (Luke 19:14) in contrast to those mentioned here.
RSS I suppose Thomas’s confession, “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28) is connected with the mighty God here.
FL I suppose the Lord in resurrection amongst His disciples conveys the idea of Prince of Peace. He opens a sphere of peace and puts them upon it in resurrection.
JT The mighty God can accomplish anything.
FL That is what He does. He comes amongst them and says, “Peace be unto you”, John 20:19.
JNH I suppose the reason that you dwell so much on the first part of this sixth verse is because we are very deficient there. It would be a great thing to have our souls exercised as to how far we are in the good of it.
JT When you see that it is the outcome of what the remnant has come to know of the Lord experimentally, it gives it a new character.
[p. 78] AAT Would the man in John 9 correspond to those referred to here?
JT I think so. You get the idea there. The remnant pass from one point to another, moving on in their apprehension of the Lord till ultimately they reach the sphere of purpose as in chapter 12. Chapter 11 presents Him to us in connection with Jesse, so you are led to God’s purpose in the line of David.
LTF “Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace” were all wrapped up in the Child. That is the idea, is it not?
JT Yes.
JLJ After we learn Him as Wonderful, then we take counsel from Him.
JT I think we do. It brings in the headship of Christ, because counsel is all in the Head.
AAT You are dwelling upon how great it was for the remnant to see these things in this Person. There must have been some movement in their souls previously, and their eyes opened to Him. I suppose this has taken place with all of us. Is not that a step before appreciating Christ?
JT I think that you get in Mary in Luke 10 the idea of one who valued the Lord as viewed here. She had some sense of what He was. She sat at His feet.
AAT Is it in the measure in which we learn Him now that we shall enjoy Him hereafter?
JT I suppose so, but you see His fitness for the place He occupies in God’s counsels from your experience of Him now.
JP That is very important. I think that prophecy and the prophetic scriptures have been taken up as a kind of study, and there has been nothing more than an exercise of the intellect, and men have acquired a certain ability to express what [p. 79] will take place in the future; but I think that the Lord is speaking very distinctly to us at this time, and that is, on the side of the subjective state of our souls, and I think it is of great importance, because I suppose that what we see in these chapters is the progress of the remnant. If it is to be taken up in its application to us, it indicates a spiritual progress in our souls, and I think what has been pressed is very important, “unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given”. Unless you can say that, I do not think it will do you much good to recite the rest of the verse; but if there is the appreciation of Him in your own soul it clothes all the future with a wonderful reality.
WJN Is it challenging our affections? Is that the point?
JP Of course it is.
JB Yesterday we were speaking of the shepherds and the announcement made to the shepherds; “unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord”, Luke 2:11.
JT You see the announcement of the glad tidings to the shepherds; then they go and see for themselves. They act upon the light communicated to them through the angel. They go to Bethlehem. They say, “Let us now go even unto Bethlehem, and see” (Luke 2:15) and they went and they saw and then they began to speak in the whole country about Christ. That is, they verified for themselves that the Child was actually born to them.
JB They were affected by the testimony.
JT They proved it. So in Matthew with the wise men from the east. They heard and they came and sought Him and they found Him.
JP It is the man with the Babe in his arms that can tell what that Babe is for Israel and the gentiles; but you must have Him in your arms to do that with any [p. 80] effect.
CA So I was thinking in order to be in the good of this — “unto us a child is born”, there must be that state of soul which was found in the remnant.
JT What I see is, that you “go”. There is movement. If you preach the gospel because another has told you about it, you will not have any power. The shepherds heard the gospel and they said, “Let us now go”. Now it seems to me that is what we have to do. They went to Bethlehem and they found the Child and His mother, and then they preached. Then when you come to Simeon you get a further movement, that is, he goes by the Spirit into the temple (he does not go to Bethlehem) and he finds Jesus in the temple, and then you get a most wonderful unfolding of what should be set forth in that Person. But in each case you have to move if you want to come into contact with the Lord.
CA Will you kindly explain the movement?
JT I think when light comes to a person it involves that he is to move, and if he moves he moves in the direction of Christ, because the gospel makes clear where the Lord is to be found. The angel intimated that He was born in Bethlehem, in the city of David; the place was intimated; the gospel always indicates where the Lord is to be found. Simeon was led by the Spirit into the temple and he found the Lord there.
WJN Light has come in to produce movement.
JT And the movement will lead you to the source of the light.
TA Where will you find Him?
JT That is a very proper question.
ST It seems the shepherds and wise men were both directed of God.
JT Yes; the latter by the stars, and the shepherds were guided by the angel’s word as to where he was; in, David’s city.
JP The light indicates where He is and desire moves the soul to find Him.
GFW Anna was already there in the temple.
JP I was thinking about our brother’s question about movement. I think you will find in Scripture that spiritual movement is always in desire. An old writer said that desire was to the soul like the sails to a sailing ship; you may have a well-rigged ship and there is a favourable breeze, but if the sails are not spread, there will be no movement; it is the desire that moves the soul. I remember in a certain place where I was, not long ago, a young sister followed me out into the street and said, ‘I can truly say I desire that which you have been setting forth’. ‘Well then’, I said, ‘you will allow me to congratulate you; you are moving’.
JT The psalmist said, “One thing have I desired of the Lord, that will I seek after”, Psalm 27:4.
JP You will generally go after the thing you desire.
FL What about the answer to that question?
JT I was thinking of that. You will have to consider as to where the gospel presents the Lord now. He is not in Bethlehem, nor in the temple in Jerusalem. I would say the gospel presents Christ at the right hand of God as an Object for faith. I was going to add that it is a great thing to have the heart set in connection with the centre, and I believe the Spirit of God in the gospel presents to us Christ in heaven as an Object; but on the other hand, as to where affection finds Him, I believe He is found where Simeon found Him, and that is in the temple.
JLJ You mean found in a centre down here.
CA That is very important: the difference between faith and affection.
JT I think we ought to make it very clear [p. 82] that the divine centre is in heaven — that is, as we have had it this morning, transferred from earth to heaven. Our citizenship is in heaven — “Jerusalem above”, Galatians 4:26. This refers to the divine centre on high. Whilst you find the Lord in the temple on earth, you maintain the connection with heaven. Would you say that?
RSS I would.
GFW What about the statement of the gospel presenting Him as available for every one?
JT That is for faith. Evidently He is not here personally. He is presented for faith.
CA Faith views Him at the right hand of God, but affection seeks Him amongst the saints.
JT Certainly.
WCR The apostle spoke to those at Colosse, “Since we have heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints”, Colossians 1:4.
JT The two things go together. Faith connects you with heaven. Faith has no reference to anything on earth, but affection has reference to what you find here in the sphere of the Holy Spirit.
WHF Would you say that faith lays hold of Christ where He is, seated at the right hand of God, in the place of supreme exaltation; and the other line is you reach Him in the assembly by the power of the Spirit?
JT I think that presents it, but you never disconnect what is available on earth, as privilege, from heaven; because today it is a heavenly system you are connected with.
FL The only statement of the gospel that the Lord gives us from heaven is helpful on this line. I would like to read Acts 26:15 - 18. The point of it as I understand it is, Christ Himself is the object: “I am Jesus whom thou persecutest” (Acts 26:15), “faith that is in me” (Acts 26:18), and then, “inheritance among them which are sanctified” (Acts 26:18), which latter is the other side; and it is the Lord’s own statement from the glory as to the elements that Paul should preach.
JT Therefore you would say that the inheritance is found amongst the sanctified ones.
WJN Is there not a heavenly side to the inheritance as in 1 Peter 1:4: “an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you”?
JT The inheritance is reserved in heaven. Heaven is specially prominent in epistles written to christians from among the Jews.
GLS The question was, Where will you find Him? John’s disciples said, “Where dwellest thou?”, John 2:38.
JT Quite so. He said, “Come and see”, John 2:39. He did not tell them, because the road, as it were, that they were on leads to that. Follow the road you are on; there is no name to His home. Where the divine home is is not formally indicated. It is to be found out.
JLJ Because it has reference to a sphere.
JP And it is moral. The point is, “Come and see”. You will find it.
RSS John 1:18: “The only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father”.
JT Quite so. It is a moral sphere, but the point is, “Come and see”.
JB It is not a certain place.
JT You could not define the place; the wise men had to follow the star.
JHC They sought and they found.
JT Yes.
WJN Do the two things go together, that is, light from God brought into the soul by the word, and then affection for Christ?
JT I think so, normally.
WJN I was thinking about the multitude in John 2; it says they believed when they saw the [p. 84] works of power; works of power do not necessarily bring the soul into contact with God.
JT It has to be moral. The Lord did not attach value to them. What the Lord did attach value to was a man who came to Him by night. That man was in need of something. These things are all outside of the natural intelligence. You can only discern them by the result produced, as the Lord says, “The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth”, John 3:8. It is outside of our knowledge, but you see the effect of it.
JP I was thinking of Butler’s Analogy and Paley’s Evidences; they are two notable books, but I do not suppose they ever brought a soul to Christ. They are products of cultured minds. I was thinking of it in connection with our brother’s remark. What is of God is outside of everything that is of man as such. The mind of man has asserted itself in the history of christianity and it has been given a great place; a great many people recognise it, but it does not bring people to Christ. It does not set them in divine motion.
FL I suppose it was a very small percentage of those benefited by Christ who followed Him and were counted as the fruit of His ministry; the benefit of christianity to the civilised world has been gigantic, but as to its moral effect it is very small.
JT You may see the saints here and in other meetings, and you may say — That is the house of God, but after all you do not see it all. “God’s dispensation which is in faith” (1 Timothy 1:4); that is, His dispensation has reference to His house. It is a system of things which has a moral feature to it, and that is altogether outside of man.
E I suppose the question asked by Thomas called forth the true answer from the Lord. “I am [p. 85] the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by me”, John 14:6.
JNH What is the thought about night being connected with Nicodemus? He is represented as one who came by night.
JT There can be no doubt that he did not wish to be seen coming, but he came to Jesus. He had light, for he recognised that the Lord was a teacher come from God.
FL The night may be an allusion to the moral darkness that existed. The light shone in the darkness.
GAH Why would you say that there is not more movement? It may be the object is not properly presented in the testimony. John’s testimony, to Christ — “Behold the Lamb of God!” (John 2:26) directed souls to Him.
JB Would you say that lack of affection would be another hindrance?
JT There are many things that one might speak of that hinder. Nicodemus did not come out fully as a disciple until the Lord died.
ST It may be we are not as much in the state for the Spirit to direct us as Simeon was.
JT It becomes a question for each conscience as to what is hindering, as to why there is not more movement.
AAT Mr. Stoney used to pray that the hindrances might be made manifest to him.
WHF Coming to Christ in connection with the soul’s need is one side, but there is another side — affection and the desire to be with Him.
JT There are those two sides in the history of the believer’s soul; that is, you come to Christ for relief, and then you come to Him as the living Stone.
WHF I was thinking of that. Peter on the water has often been referred to in connection with coming to Christ on the line of affection. He wanted [p. 86] to be with Him. It was not a question of getting anything, but he wanted to be in His company.
JT When you come to Isaiah 11, verses 1 to 9, the Lord is presented, not according to what He was to them, but as related to the line of David, and what He would effect as such. Then in verse 10 it says: “And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious”. Now I think that in this chapter the Lord is viewed, not now as born to the people, but in connection with divine purpose, seen in the line of David.
JHC Looking forward to His reign, I suppose.
JT Yes. The first part of the chapter refers to what will come in more directly in connection with Israel, but the second part shows His universal position.
JP Verse 12 says, “the outcasts of Israel” and “the dispersed of Judah” besides the nations.
Ques Is there a spiritual application of this to us now?
JT I think so. I think you get the Lord as an ensign, as a gathering centre lifted up, and envy departs under His influence; as it goes on to say in verses 12 - 14. You see there the tribes brought together in unity under the influence of Christ, and I believe the same thing holds good now.
GFW That is, unity is brought in under the influence of Christ.
JT Yes.
WCR Was it similar to David reigning in Israel? All were brought into unity through his reign.
JT And you will notice, as we have had it already, the envy of Ephraim departs; but amongst God’s people there is not only the envy of Ephraim, but in Judah that which vexes Ephraim; that has to be seen to. We have dwelt upon the envy of Ephraim, but you may get, with those God has taken [p. 87] up in His sovereignty, a want of thoughtfulness and consideration for Ephraim. Judah does not vex Ephraim any more. They had been accustomed to do so.
JNH The thoughtfulness of love.
JT I think so. What is presented is the wonderful effect of the influence of Christ over them.
JP There is nothing one-sided.
ST I suppose we find that in the counsel that Rehoboam got. Ephraim was vexed by Judah.
JT A very good point. Had he considered the advice of the older men the situation might have been saved.
FL I think we often see that.
GFW To get it brought down to where some of us can get hold of it, would that principle come out when a christian who had, or thought he had, a good deal of light was inconsiderate of others?
JT Sometimes the older ones are displaced, and there is want of regard and consideration for them.
FL There is that which is corporate here too. Perhaps we may be set for the right thing, but the way in which things are handled and brought out may be wrong, and it sorely distresses the honest spirit and conscience of others. You are set for the right thing, but the way in which you do it does not commend itself, and the conscience of others is alienated. Any one who has been with us for years can look back and recall times when the right thing was done but the spirit in which it was done was not right.
JT God may be with a person, or a company of persons, in the main, and yet they may not be devoid of vexing their brethren unnecessarily.
FL It was only recently a matter came up where [p. 88] one had to say to the saints, ‘Is the thing that has been done right?’ ‘Yes’. ‘Well, try and not mind the spirit in which it has been done’. Still Ephraim had been vexed.
RSS When does this take place?
JT It is the future. It is the recovery of the whole of the tribes of Israel under Christ.
RSS Would this be the introduction of the kingdom and the millennium?
JT I understand it so. And then you see in the closing verses of chapter 11, “And the Lord shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod. And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt”. I think you have an allusion there to death; that God overthrows it for them, so that they come up to Zion.
FL Now there is a highway. The thought is extremely beautiful as bringing out the effect of the death of Christ.
JT It is a wonderful thing to see the divine highway. There is no, room on that highway for the flesh. The divine highway is opened up through death and resurrection.
JLJ Joshua 3 corresponds; the ark stands in the midst of Jordan and all pass over.
WCR Would not the first part of this chapter have a very practical application now, where you get the subduing of all these different elements which are natural, so that they dwell together in peace?
JT Yes. You get the wolf and the lamb dwelling together. A wonderful thing to have two such animals brought together!
GFW The lion eating straw like the ox.
[p. 89] JT The nature of the beast is changed. In the assembly of God, under the influence of the Lord, nature is reversed; the wolf is not what he was — things become altered.
FL I would like to add to what you were saying about there being no way for the flesh, a verse from Isaiah 35: “And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein. No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there: and the ransomed of the Lord shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away”, Isaiah 35:8 - 10.
JT It is a magnificent passage. It is the highway to Zion.
RSS It is very remarkable that all that will be established here on earth.
JT Yes. It is earthly blessing that is in view. It is God’s great triumph for the remnant, and they are brought into it. This chapter is not limited to Judah, it is the whole twelve tribes; a way opened for them through death and resurrection into Canaan.
RSS Are others not brought in?
JP Yes; the nations. “An ensign for the nations”; that group of nations which in the prophetic scriptures is always connected with Israel.
JT It is, however, the remnant that is immediately before the Spirit here; “there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people”.
JP So chapter 12 is really the celebration of the remnant.
RSS Does that close the section?
JT Yes. So now they say, “in that day ... I will praise thee”. You feel how God has got His full portion in His people. “O Lord, I will praise thee: though thou wast angry with me, thine anger is turned away, and thou comfortedst me”.
WJN Would you say that in chapter 11 you get the remnant in principle apprehending Christ in the light of God’s purpose, and then you get unity, and then praise?
JT What I think chapter 11 sets before us is the Person of Christ as the Offspring and Root of Jesse, and the effect of His great influence over Israel and universally. Every trace of the serpent disappears.
WJN In principle, good today.
JT In the assembly; and then you see how the remnant is specially brought in on the ground of death and resurrection, so that they go to Zion.
JP And they are in the good of Exodus 15; “God is my salvation”.
ST I was thinking you have indicated that these wonderful things which will come to pass are no greater than Jew and gentile brought together in one body.
JT Not so great. What we have now is connected with heaven. We have all they will have, but we have something they will not have.
JHC “They shall look on me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him”, Zechariah 12:10. Is that brought in before this?
JT That will be the same time, but it presents a different side of the truth. Here it is God’s intervention for the remnant and what He does for them; He opens up a highway into the land, and as in the land, in life, they praise.
FL Zechariah presents more the repentant side in them.
JT Yes. The Lord’s persecution in the midst of Israel is not in view in this section [p. 91] of Isaiah.
FL Here it is a question of God coming in for the remnant.
RSS Verse 11 says, “And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people”. What is the reference to the second time?
JT It is an allusion to the first taking them out of Egypt.
JP It is like the last clause of the last verse of chapter 11.
ARS Would this highway in verse 16 correspond to the opened door in Revelation 3:8?
JT An opened door is an opportunity, an opportunity that love embraces. The Lord has set before us an opened door and no one can shut it. It is a wonderful thing that a handful of people are enabled to go on and bear testimony. The highway here is out of captivity and death into life.
ARS What would correspond to that today?
JT I think what is announced in the gospel through the death and resurrection of Christ. God has opened up an highway for man out of death and bondage into life. Chapter 12 contemplates a sphere of life in which God gets His praise.
GFW “A path which no fowl knoweth, and which the vulture’s eye hath not seen”, Job 28:7. Would that correspond?
JT There it is; a path known only to faith.
GFW That would be the way today. It is the resurrection path.
TA What is the distinction between chapter 12 here, and the song that the children of Israel sang when they crossed the Red Sea?
JT There is one difference in verse 1: “though thou wast angry with me, thine anger is turned away, and thou comfortedst me”. This does not appear in Exodus 15. This song contemplates a more intimate knowledge of God than Exodus 15. Here the people [p. 92] are in the land and in Zion. But they are in the good of what Exodus 15 presents, “God is my salvation”.
JP You were speaking of its being a sphere of life. I suppose that praise is the proof of that, as a beautiful line in one of the hymns expresses it, Praise issuing forth in life alone; here you have praise issuing forth in life.
JT And in Hezekiah: “The living, the living, he shall praise thee”, Isaiah 38:19.
CA Praise only issues from the living.
JT And then you have activity in verse 3: “Therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of salvation”. It is not an irksome thing. It is not that which they did in the days of their bondage; “with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of salvation”.
JB Has this any reference to the waters of Shiloah?
JT This is the divine fulness. The waters of Shiloah were God’s provision, but they were not wells of salvation. Here you have wells. A well is an inexhaustible supply.
FL That is what the man of resurrection brings in — Isaac. He digged the wells.
TA They could not sing verse 6 on the bank of the Red Sea.
JT “Cry out and shout, thou inhabitant of Zion: for great is the Holy One of Israel in the midst of thee”. They are dwelling in Zion here. There in Exodus 15 it was, “Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance, in the place, O Lord, which thou hast made for thee to dwell in, in the Sanctuary, O Lord, which thy hands have established”, Exodus 15:17. That was anticipation; here it is actuality.
CA In verse 5 you get, “this is known in all the earth”. What about that?
JT God’s great works are [p. 93] known universally.
GAH But the company convened in worship goes beyond this, does it not; the christian company?
JT Yes, it is connected with heaven.
JLJ Because you get the value of His ascension there.
JT I should like to come across a company up to this. I should regard that as a place in which to stay. Salvation is in great fulness, where it could be characterised and spoken of as wells of salvation. It is not here simply that there is no fear of briers and thorns; it is that the thing is in such fulness that it is spoken of by the Spirit in this way.
JP There is “neither adversary nor evil occurrent” (1 Kings 5:4) here; they do not need bows and arrows.
CA Would not this be in connection with the rivers of living water?
JT Living water conveys a different thought. “Wells of salvation” refer to deliverance from the enemy’s power, and it is in such fulness in Zion, that it is presented in this inexhaustible way. But the water of life has life-giving power. That is Ezekiel’s point of view.
ST I was thinking of what was engaging the Jews at the time the Lord spoke in John 7. Was it not a special occasion at that time?
JT It was the feast of tabernacles; the greatest day in Israel. It was the great day of the feast. But I do not think it is there a question of salvation, but of life. “Out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water”, John 7:38, showing the greatness of the believer; that the believer in Christ in his own person should be greater than the feast of tabernacles. This was a great testimony to Christ.
ST I was thinking of it more in contrast, as you have brought it out.
JT It is not only that Christ is greater, but that even the believer in Him is greater than man’[p. 94] s greatest day.
WJN Is not the last day the eighth day?
JT It was the great day of the feast.
RSS But here it is not a question of life. We have been considering the remnant in their difficulties, and the way God comes in for their deliverance, and therefore it is wells of salvation.
CA Would you say Simeon was drawing water out of the wells of salvation when he took the Child in his arms?
JT He had salvation in his arms, but he was going to die. It was all in the future in his case; but it was there in the Person of Christ, although not effective then.
FL It strikes me as the exuberant joy of those who were brought into the security and the peace and the blessing of God; not that their enemies were simply driven back, but they do not exist; it is the culmination, it is the point to which they have been brought, so it is expressed in language which implies there is no end to it; it is overflowing and there is nothing whatever to dim it.
JB In full accord with their song.
JT There is testimony as to what God has done; “make mention that his name is exalted. Sing unto the Lord; for he hath done excellent things: this is known in all the earth”.
JNH Is it true that salvation is always connected with the earth?
JT I think so. It has reference to the overthrow of the enemy’s power.
JP It seems as if the last two verses are almost like an exhortation: “Sing unto the Lord; for he hath done excellent things: this is known in all the earth”. What the Lord has done, the excellent things, that Jehovah has done, call for a song; then the fact of His being in the midst of Israel calls for crying out and shouting: “Cry out and shout, thou inhabitant of Zion: for great is the Holy One of Israel in the midst of thee”. I suppose that, in principle, you might say verse 5 is what is called a believers’ meeting, and verse 6 the assembly. Mr. Stoney used to call a meeting where they only praised the Lord for what He had done, a believers’ meeting; but it is on account of One who is in the midst when you come to the last verse.
JT That is a very helpful distinction. It is all right to praise the Lord for what He has done.
JP But it is a greater thing to cry out and shout because of His being in the midst: “Cry out and shout, thou inhabitant of Zion: for great is the Holy One of Israel in the midst of thee”.