GOD'S THOUGHT OF A CITY AS SEEN IN JERUSALEM (5)

GOD’S THOUGHT OF A CITY AS SEEN IN JERUSALEM (5)

Revelation 21:9 - 27; Revelation 22:1 - 5

JT The occurrence of the number twelve in this chapter is to be specially noted, as pointing to administrative power. The numeral implies the idea of administration, but in a peculiar manner as set out in this chapter. Perhaps in no part of Scripture is it set out more fully. It belongs to a series of symbols that prevail in the book of Revelation which is a book of symbols. Unless we understand symbols we cannot understand the book, but they are made very plain to us, the Spirit of God being here to help us. We have ears to hear and eyes to see; the eyes enter into it, but especially the ears, as the book of Revelation indicates; “He that hath an ear, let him hear”. Therefore as the light comes to us at this time we should have our ears and eyes active, but especially our ears. The word ‘see’ is much used in the book, but the ears are especially stressed; as if God would leave no loophole for us in our natural way of thinking to indulge ourselves at a time like this; time is too precious to do that. There is no time for indulging our natural sight and feelings; it is a time for keeping our ears and eyes open to hear and see and get the truth. And first we should notice the remarkable word in verse 9, “And there came one of the seven angels which had had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues, and spoke with me, saying, Come here, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife”. One is peculiarly impressed with the great prevalence of marital touches, marital suggestions; they find a place in the relations of Christ and the assembly; the whole marital idea finally converges on Christ and the assembly; all else disappears.

ANW ^[p. 200] Must we allow the Spirit a special place in this matter? The apostle says, “he carried me away in the Spirit, and set me on a great and high mountain”.

JT This is in keeping with what has been so pressed upon the brethren of recent times, that the Spirit should have, not only a place, but His full place in our minds and hearts; and certainly it is given to Him in the book of Revelation. In fact we have it strengthened in a peculiar way in the allusion to the seven Spirits of God in the beginning of the book, the seven Spirits; it is an increase in the idea of what is spiritual, what is of the Spirit.

JWD Is there no thought of what is marital in connection with Israel in the millennium?

JT It is difficult to say that there is, at any rate in this book. We might go back to the Old Testament and carry forward some thoughts, but it looks to me as if the marital idea finally centres in Christ and the assembly. That is what I understand: Christ referring to the masculine side, and the assembly to the feminine side. I am not so sure that we can work out anything more than that in the whole Bible, because the assembly has the prime place in relation to Christ maritally. I am not so sure that Israel comes much into it; I think the Spirit of God is reserving it all for the assembly; that is the great thought of God, the great thought of the Lord, Christ and the assembly. We can of course refer to many references in the Old Testament, but then the question is whether these are not reserved finally for Christ and the assembly. Do you follow what I am saying?

JWD Yes. I remember years ago the brethren used to speak much about the Jewish bride in the Song of Songs. But do you think that is just a merging ^[p. 201] idea?

JT Well, I am not so sure about it. I think the Spirit of God has reserved the whole matter, the whole marital matter, for Christ and the assembly. That is the way Paul treats of it and I think we should listen to Paul on those lines. He says, “I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly” (Ephesians 5:32). He has spoken of much, of course, but he finally centralises on Christ and the assembly.

NB What is the distinction between the bride as presented in this paragraph and in the previous one?

JT Not much, except that she is more a figure in the previous paragraph, prepared as “a bride adorned for her husband”. It is a figure. But here in verse 9 it says, “Come here, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife”. That is definite, that is the final thought. She is seen as the Lamb’s wife and the word ‘Lamb’ in the Revelation refers to suffering; that is, Christ was to suffer; He suffered in view of that.

KR Is “the bride, the Lamb’s wife”, what is substantial, and the holy city the symbol now?

JT That is right, the holy city is the symbol, just a symbol; but it is still a city, as we had this morning. We do not ignore the word ‘city’, it is emphasised as if God would retain it and keep it; a precious thought, precious on the whole page of Scripture. God is entitled to His rights in all these matters and we are to allow them fully to Him. In the gospel of Matthew there is a marriage referred to, the marriage of the king’s son, and we should allow the King His rights, that is, referring to God, what God has in Christ and the assembly. We must make full allowance for that.

TLS John the baptist seems to appreciate the matter: he said, “He that has the bride is the bridegroom” (John 3:^[p. 202] 29).

JT Just so; he does not tell us who the bride is of course; but I think it would be quite right and fair to carry the whole matter into the book of Revelation as we now have it. If we are not told who the bride is in John’s idea, then we might as well leave it open, for he leaves it open.

ANW Is the extent of the involvement of Israel in the matter seen in the gates? It says in verse 12, “having twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names inscribed, which are those of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel”.

JT That follows up what we had this morning as to the place Israel has; and some of us perhaps have stressed that Israel will drop out. But we are encouraged to see that God has His own thoughts, He reserves His rights to His thoughts, and He has thoughts as to Israel. His first thoughts were in relation to Israel, they are the first part of the human race that is specialised, and we should allow God His rights in that He loves Israel.

SMcC Would verse 12 show what He thinks of them in that their names are carried through?

JT I thought that, and the apostles of the Lamb corresponding with that in the number twelve. The apostles of the Lamb have the same kind of place in that sense, only that they must have precedence over Israel, because it is not ‘old and new’, but “new and old” in the Scripture. If things are compared it is the new first; and the apostles of the Lamb are certainly newer in that sense than the tribes of Israel, and I think we should so regard it.

JTJr While the thought of twelve began with Israel, it is not fully or rightly seen until we have the twelve apostles.

JT Quite so. Everything must take precedence with the Lord Jesus. He has become Man to carry out all the divine thoughts, and He must have His rights. I refer to the word ‘rights’ because He has ^[p. 203] such; He is a divine Person, He is God Himself, “who is over all, God blessed for ever” (Romans 9:5); and there must be rights attached to anything that refers to Him, and these rights must be in every way respected.

JH Would Paul be respecting them when he said, “to which our whole twelve tribes serving incessantly day and night hope to arrive” (Acts 26:7)?

JT That is a good scripture to bring up: “our whole twelve tribes”. James and Paul both refer to them.

SMcC Would the dispensational section of Romans, chapters 9, 10 and 11, show us what God thinks of Israel? While they may have dropped out for the moment, in view of the times of the gentiles, yet God is not relinquishing His thoughts.

JT I think that is excellent. We often note how the Lord Jesus is spoken of at the beginning of that section. Would you read it just to show how Paul felt about it?

“I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience bearing witness with me in the Holy Spirit, that I have great grief and uninterrupted pain in my heart, for I have wished, I myself, to be a curse from the Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen, according to flesh; who are Israelites; whose is the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the lawgiving, and the service, and the promises; whose are the fathers; and of whom, as according to flesh, is the Christ, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen”. (Romans 9:1 - 5).

JT I think that is just enough to bring out how the Lord Jesus Himself is spoken of as “over all, God blessed for ever”. So that we may rely on the fact that we have the right thought presented in those three chapters. They finish with a wonderful doxology which you might read for us in chapter 11.

“^[p. 204] For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counsellor? or who has first given to him, and it shall be rendered to him? For of him, and through him, and for him are all things: to him be glory for ever. Amen” (Romans 11:34 - 36).

JT We see how Paul is not, so to say, giving way to anyone as to his love for Israel; and he further states formally that all Israel shall be saved.

ETP In that same section Paul says that “the gifts and the calling of God are not subject to repentance”; and the note there says, ‘irrevocable’, ‘never to be regretted’. Does that mean that the primary thoughts of God as to Israel go through?

JT I am glad you refer to that: ‘irrevocable’, the thoughts of God go through and cannot be altered.

JTJr The Lord says in regard to the dead that God is not the God of the dead, He is the God of the living; He is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. All live unto Him.

JT Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob live to Him, live to God; that is very precious to think of.

JTJr Is that not the thought in regard to Israel, that all that is of God is carried through, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob suggesting that?

JT Just so. And then we have what happened on the mount of transfiguration, how Moses and Elias appear there; so that the divine thoughts are carried through and appear in the clearest place where God is pleased to place them. The mount of transfiguration was where the Lord Himself was transfigured before them, He was transfigured before the disciples.

Ques Does Hebrews 11:39,40 confirm that? It says, “And these all, having obtained witness through faith, did not receive the promise, God having foreseen some better thing for us, that they ^[p. 205] should not be made perfect without us”. So they are to be with us, is that right?

JT Very good. And the patriarchs are all mentioned in that chapter. So that it is forced upon us here, upon all of us, I believe, that God’s thoughts remain; they are not changeable, they go right through. We are forced to think that God is reserving His thoughts for eternity. He has His own way of bringing them out in due time so that they shall shine where He wishes to place them. The word ‘shine’ is a good word to carry into these thoughts.

JWD Have the apostles of the Lamb a special place in regard to Israel apart from the assembly? The Lord says of them that they are to sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Would that be something that is special to them?

JT Quite so; it is an apostolic reference.

JWD Will they have some special place in the millennium in relation to Israel?

JT Yes, in relation to the twelve tribes of Israel, so that the apostles take precedence over the twelve tribes. But here we have the twelve tribes and we have the twelve apostles of the Lamb; so that there is a remarkable connection between them.

JTJr Is there not the thought too of the angels coming in? God’s thoughts in regard of them are seen too: “at the gates twelve angels”.

JT That is largely a matter of the numeral; you cannot make much of angels as to distinction, although we have archangels; but I would say they are relegated to the third place in God’s order, that is, the assembly is first and Israel is second and the angels are third. That is the order I think in which the Scripture puts them.

JTJr The idea comes in in Revelation of myriads of angels. Are we to see the place in which God has put them?

JT ^[p. 206] They are referred to as mighty, one angel doing so much as killing one hundred and eighty-five thousand men at once. What wonderful power they must have! That is what especially distinguishes them. We cannot say how many there are; we do know that there are archangels — Michael is one — but that is about all you could say as to distinction. Michael is especially spoken of as acting wisely and simply, and humbly too, in relation to the order in which God sets things. He did not bring in a railing accusation against the devil.

JMcK Is the service of this angel to be noted of whom it says that “he carried me away in the Spirit”? Is there any significance as to that service in relation to the saints? I was wondering if there might be some suggestion as to angelic service for the saints now in relation to seeing or arriving at the understanding of things.

JT I do not think we could speak of it as to the saints as a characteristic thing; just one angel had this place; it is not a question of the saints generally, it was just a question of John, and the angel tells John what to do. John worships him, which is remarkable, and the angel corrects him. We cannot say that the angels are indwelt by the Spirit as we are. No creatures are indwelt by the Spirit so far as I know except the assembly. Angelic power is of course available to us: “Are they not all ministering spirits”, it says, “sent out for service on account of those who shall inherit salvation?” (Hebrews 1:14). That is a general fact as regard angels. They are not chief agents; they are just subservient or administrative; they are never viewed as chief. The saints are, and the Lord Jesus is supremely so of course; but angels are subservient to all of us, especially to the Lord Jesus, but to all those who are heirs of salvation. They are ministers to all those ^[p. 207] who are heirs of salvation. Therefore the saints have a superior place to angels. The Lord said that He could ask His Father for legions of angels if He wanted them; they are always there, they are under God’s hand to be used, but they are not distinctive. God did not intend to bring out any great principle as to them as He has done regarding Israel and regarding the assembly.

JWF Should we not accept as characteristic of angels at the present time that scripture you have quoted: “Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out for service?”

JT I think we ought to. I remember that three years ago in New Zealand, we had a reading on the sufferings of Christ and the service of God; and it was brought out that saints are supported by angels in their sufferings, that angels are ready to help us in our sufferings; and the impression I got at that time has never left me as to the place angels have in service to us. So as you intimate, they ought to have a great place with us now, especially as to trade unionism; in that I think their service ought to be very great and sought after, not that we should pray to them, of course, that would be wrong, but to ask God about them, and to count on their support in these terrible experiences that we have to go through with trade unionism. It is the real difficulty of the moment, and I believe the angels are watching over it. They have helped in Australia peculiarly, and I believe they are ready to help us here too. I am sure that those of us who are suffering ought to count on them, to count on God regarding them fully in our prayer meetings, because they are available to us.

JW In Luke’s gospel it is said of our Lord that an angel came and strengthened Him. Is that not affecting?

JT That is a very touching thought.

^[p. 208] Ques The Lord says in the end of this book, “I Jesus have sent mine angel” (verse 16). Would that be just on a special occasion? He says “mine angel”.

JT Just so; one available to Him that He used.

DMacd Peter experienced the help of an angel when he was in prison.

JT You might as well read it for us, because we do not all of us remember it; “And lo, an angel of the Lord came there, and a light shone in the prison: and having smitten the side of Peter, he roused him up, saying, Rise up quickly. And his chains fell off his hands. And the angel said to him, Gird thyself, and bind on thy sandals. And he did so. And he says to him, Cast thine upper garment about thee and follow me” (Acts 12:7,8).

JT Very good; and I suppose we might with confidence refer to the angel smiting Peter on the side as an indication that he knew what the Lord had had to endure, that His side had been smitten; the angel implied that Peter should understand that, and no doubt he did. Peter understood himself that the Lord had sent His angel to support him. Then Rhoda was another agent at the same time, a thing for the sisters to remember, that a young girl in such a time could render service to a great servant like Peter. She stood her ground too against persecution.

CCT The angel went the full way with Peter until he was ready to go on himself. It says that “they went down one street, and immediately the angel left him”.

JT In due time he left him, as if Peter is left to himself now and God will help him.

ADS It says in verse 11, “And Peter, being come to himself, said, Now I know certainly that the Lord has sent forth his angel and has taken me out ^[p. 209] of the hand of Herod and all the expectation of the people of the Jews”.

JT “Now I know”, showing that he had come back to consciousness. I have heard people speaking of Peter’s sleep reproachfully but it showed that he was superior to the circumstances, and that his faith was in the Lord. He slept, but then the angel smote him on the side which would be a touch of love because the Lord had had the same experience Himself. But now he has come back to consciousness, he knew where he was, which is a very touching thing too, showing that the Lord takes account of us when we are unconscious or sleeping.

TU Would there be further encouragement as to angelic service in Acts 27 where the angel of God stood by Paul? I was thinking of it particularly in relation to the current exercises about the union. He seems to get a strengthening word as to the matter of the moment.

JT “An angel of ... God ... stood by me” (Acts 27:23). Very beautiful. And later in the chapter he stood up and broke bread, he led the way in the breaking of bread; it was not the breaking of bread in the ordinary sense, but they had been fasting and Paul led the way to normalcy for them, to eat ordinary food and get strength for the service of God.

AB Is there something special in the thought “he carried me away in the Spirit”, in relation to this great matter of the holy city, Jerusalem? I was thinking of the beginning of Revelation where John says, “I became in the Spirit on the Lord’s day”.

JT John had had that experience already, you mean? Just so. And that brings up another question which we ought to mention, that the Lord’s day is not properly attended to by the brethren. That is what I have noticed generally. We are very negligent as to respecting the Lord’s day; we do all sorts of things on the Lord’s day, whereas it is the Lord’s day and should be respected; we should not desecrate it.

ASB You have said elsewhere, and one has to acknowledge it, that we have made the Lord’s day pretty much like an ordinary day, whereas reverence and what is spiritual should mark us on the Lord’s day.

JT I am sure if it is the Lord’s day we should respect the Lord; the very title should be respected. We should not make it ordinary, not make a holiday out of it; there is too much of that I am sure and the Lord would give a word as to it; He would encourage us to take a word as to it.

ANW And yet not as under law, but under the Lord, out of respect for Him.

JT Just so, not under the law but under the Lord; it is the Lord’s authority on the Lord’s day.

DMH “A great and high mountain” — would not that correspond now to moral elevation?

JT It would indeed; but still it was literal in certain cases because the Lord Himself went up to a mountain in Matthew 5; He went up to a high mountain and sat down and the disciples came to Him and He taught them; He opened His mouth and taught them. The Lord led the way in that sense, so that it is more than a mere figure; it is a literal thought, the thought of elevation, a very great thought, and it enters into so many things. Paul for instance had a remarkable elevation; he was caught up to the third heaven; we do not know of anybody that ever was caught up but himself, and it was fourteen years before he mentioned it. But still he did mention it and it is there for us to pay attention to.

JWF Elevation is sometimes in view of observation, and it speaks here of John observing, being ^[p. 211] shown something.

CCT I was wondering as to when the Lord’s day actually starts for us. I thought you had said it was at the breaking of bread, but does it not start before that?

JT Oh certainly. There are twenty-four hours in the day, but twelve would cover the responsible part of it. “Are there not twelve hours in the day?” the Lord says in John 11:9. There are twelve hours in the responsible day, and I would say the day begins as we take on the day’s responsibility.

HB Have you not pointed out that the “first day of the week” began with glory in that Christ was raised from among the dead by the glory of the Father?

JT Pardon me, but that is not the idea of the Lord’s day; we are now speaking of the Lord’s day, which is a dignified idea, an authoritative idea, whereas the first day of the week is an entirely different viewpoint. The ‘week’ is the word to note there, it is the term or the time which is proper to christianity. I believe the first day of the week refers to christianity, and to what is done in christianity; but that is not the idea of the Lord’s day. The first day of the week is a question of privilege, but the Lord’s day implies authority, that we should be respectful of it in everything that we do.

JB Does the note as to it in the first chapter of Revelation help us? It says there, “the ‘dominical’ or ‘lordly’ day — characterised by belonging to the Lord, as ‘Lord’s’” (1 Corinthians 11:20).

JT That is quite right, the ‘lordly’ day; it is an authoritative day, that is the idea.

ANW Is it not just as dominical as the Supper? The word applies to both the day and the Supper.

AB Does the hymn express it: ‘he Spirit’s realm commands us On this most favoured day’ (376:^[p. 212] 3)?

JT Well, quite so; but the first day of the week properly fits into that side of the matter.

TU Speaking practically, does the Lord’s day begin for us when we awake in the morning? No matter what time we awake, the first thing should be that we come under the authority of the Lord.

JT Quite so.

ADS In Acts 20 the first day is connected with the breaking of bread. It says in verse 7, “And the first day of the week, we being assembled to break bread, Paul discoursed to them, about to depart on the morrow”.

JT That shows that it is a privileged day, when the disciples came together to break bread; and I think that is the thing we should have in mind; not simply the Lord’s day but the first day of the week. The week is a term in relation to christianity so far as I understand. The month links with Judaism of old in connection with the passover and the like, but the week is a period of time that relates to christianity.

Ques If we go back to the original day, the day that God introduced at the beginning, it says that the evening and the morning were the first day.

JT The day begins with the evening when it is the Jews that we are dealing with.

CM Speaking of the evening and the morning, at seven o’clock on Saturday evening here on the eastern seaboard of this country, the dear brethren in New Zealand are coming together to break bread.

JT We cannot interfere with divine order. God made the evening and the morning and the day, God has done that. We have to be governed by the sun; God has appointed the sun to regulate the day, so we have to go by that. It is a question of when the sun comes up in the heavens where we are. The actual creative facts that enter into the day have to be borne in mind. God has done that; we ^[p. 213] may use daylight saving time, but that is a poor thing after all, because we ought to abide by what God has done creatively. All these matters are under divine order in creation.

NB What day would the psalmist have in his mind when he said, “This is the day that Jehovah hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it” (Psalm 118:24)?

JT That is a question of the Old Testament and of what God had ordered at that time, as to what it actually refers to. Of course it might be taken up in relation to the feasts. The saints in the Old Testament went according to the divine order in their time keeping: they recognised the length of the nights and the length of the days as we do now; that is to say we must respect the divine order whatever it may be.

JMcK It says as to Paul when he was in his own hired house, that he spoke “from early morning to evening” (Acts 28:23). Is that the moral way in which we should observe the day?

JT Just so; whatever Scripture authorises we can easily follow and God will be with us.

CCT If we truly get into our hearts what we are saying about the Lord’s day, would it not help us in the service of God?

JT Quite so, because of the moral element in it; there is a moral element in the expression “the Lord’s day”, and that ought to help us. Everything that refers to God helps us if we observe it.

HB I suppose the great feature of Jerusalem here is “having the glory of God”, is it not?

JT Just so, so that we should proceed with our chapter. Verse 15 says, “And he that spoke with me had a golden reed as a measure, that he might measure the city, and its gates, and its wall. And the city lies foursquare, and its length is as much as the breadth. And he measured the city with the ^{[p. 214] [p. 215]} reed — twelve thousand stadia: the length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. And he measured its wall, a hundred and forty-four cubits, a man’s measure, that is, the angel’s” — the angel’s measure. So that we might proceed with the matter of the city, and its walls and the like, to get the full thought before us.

WMcK You were referring in your word the other night to Deity coming down to creature state. Would that be in view in the Lord God Almighty being the temple of the city?

JT “And I saw no temple in it; for the Lord God Almighty is its temple, and the Lamb”. Now what is your thought about that?

WMcK I was linking it in my mind with what you remarked the other night, as to how near divine Persons have come to the assembly as a creature, and I wondered if this verse sets that out.

JT I think we certainly ought to get some help on that point, as to how God comes down to us so that we might understand what He has in His mind, and that we might speak as to it aright. So verse 22 says, “I saw no temple in it; for the Lord God Almighty is its temple, and the Lamb”. That is plain enough, it is God Himself who is the temple; there is no shrine as it were, God Himself being there, a very precious thing to think of, that God Himself is the temple, and the Lamb.

Ques Do these precious stones in verses 19 and 20 refer to the variety in the work of God in persons?

JT I think that is very good. There is great variety in these precious stones; of course the word ‘precious’ is not to be ignored. They are precious and we take them as they stand. But first we might make a few observations upon the details given as to the city in these verses, beginning with verse 16: “The city lies foursquare, and its length is as much as the breadth. And he measured the city with the reed — twelve thousand stadia: the length and the breadth and height of it are equal” — that is to say, it is a cube. It is a remarkable fact that the idea of cubic measure is entered into, so that we must see the solidity of the city; it is not square measure only, but cubic measure.

JTJr Do the measurements bring out the fact of the city’s existence? We were speaking about what is abstract, and I suppose the abstract would refer to the thing itself; but the measurements would bring out the fact of its existence so that we should see the thing abstractly; and then perhaps understand a little about it in a concrete sense in our meetings.

JT The solidity is a great matter, solidity among the brethren in the care meeting and the like, in what is being done. I think that is the thing to notice.

NS Does the reference to a man’s measure suggest that men are in view in relation to Jerusalem, that there are to be men in Jerusalem?

JT Just so; so the human element is brought into it. The angel is there, the idea of an angel, but the human element is the prominent thought. It is not primarily an angelic thought, it is the human thought.

Rem God’s thought is to have men for Himself.

ASB So that you were saying in regard to “a man in Jerusalem”, and men in Jerusalem, that God’s thought is not a vacuum but the solidarity of the position.

JT Just so; and the city is inhabited — men shall inhabit it.

AMacd In a recent word you gave us you mentioned the word ‘thickness’ in connection with the wall, that we should be marked by separation, a good thick separation from this ^[p. 216] world.

JT Quite so, thickness in keeping out the evil. We have full means of doing it.

JMcK Does the word as to Jerusalem in Isaiah 60:18,19 fit in with that? “But thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise. The sun shall be no more thy light by day, neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee; but Jehovah shall be thine everlasting light, and thy God thy glory”.

JT Beautiful! Showing how the Old Testament can feed us too, added to what we have in the New, as we rightly and spiritually understand it.

SMcC The Galatians were very fickle, Paul really upbraids them as to it. He has in mind the solidity that you are referring to that belongs to the position; their fickleness would be in contrast to what is solid as we have it here. The word ‘establish’ fits into that: “Now he that establishes us with you in Christ ... is God” (2 Corinthians 1:21). Establishing would be implied in the idea of solidity.

JTJr Would not the thought be initially seen in the Acts when the Spirit came in? That is, the twelve are there, the twelve apostles; and then it says “they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers” (Acts 2:42). The thing is there in principle. No one could raise any error when the twelve apostles were present.

JT Quite so.

JWD For what purpose does the heavenly city come down? What shall we do in the millennial world?

JT I think the heavenly city is over the earth; we shall reign over the earth, not on it. I think we shall be under the divine hand for whatever will be needed in the millennial day, because God will be over it, the hand of God. The Lord will have the earth. When the millennial world is established the ^[p. 217] Lord will be there, and He will have wonderful things to do and to bring out. What do we do now in the assembly? There are things that we do every day in the assembly; every Lord’s day we do things that we have not done before. You might say things are just repeated, but they are not just repeated; every Lord’s day brings out something new. And I would say the millennial world will bring out freshness, newness, and variety; the assembly will be there to be usable, because it is the greatest family of all and it is usable in the hands of the Lord; it is His body. If it is His body He will work through it, the Lord Himself will be acting through it. I think the saints will be available to the Lord in what it means to be His body. We often say, The Lord is doing so and so, but when we come down to the details, some saint is doing it; so that things are done that way, and that is what I believe will go on in the millennial world; and probably go on eternally, because the Lord will have a body always and do through it what He wishes to do to carry out the behests of love. His body will be there to do that.

ANW The idea emphasised seems to be light shining, so that the nations shall walk in the light of it.

ASB Do the first two verses of Isaiah 60 bear on what you are saying in regard to Israel on the earth? “Arise, shine! for thy light is come, and the glory of Jehovah is risen upon thee. For behold, darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the peoples; but Jehovah will arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen on thee”.

JT That is the millennial day; it is wonderful to have that in mind, that God has His own reserves. There will be a terrible time before that, Jacob’s trouble will take place, but still there will come a time of peace; the Prince of Peace will be there and the millennium will be a wonderful time. We are to ^[p. 218] look forward to real joy and satisfaction and victory; that is still ahead of us.

Ques Is that what Paul means in 1 Corinthians 6:2 when he says, “Do ye not then know that the saints shall judge the world?”

JT The saints, just so. We had already that the apostles are to judge the twelve tribes of Israel, but the saints are going to judge the world. There will be a great deal to be done therefore, but it is not only judgment but blessing. The old men sitting on the streets and children playing on the streets, these are things to be noted; they are streets into which the inhabitants are not afraid to let their children go. At the present time the devil is there and we have to keep the children at home; but in the millennium he will not be there; he will be chained for a thousand years, so that the children will not be exposed. They will play on the streets, it says.

CT While there is a variety of stones in the foundation of the wall, is it not a suggestive matter that each gate is of one pearl?

JT Just so. There are twelve foundations in the wall, a remarkable thing, showing the solidity of it, the certainty of it, so that we can fully lean upon it as it were, rest on it. It is really all very beautiful as showing the divine thought of what is to be brought about in the millennial world; it is like the seventh day, the seventh day in the creation is like the millennial world.

JJ Where does the apostle Paul appear in this?

JT Not at all, he is not mentioned; it is John, John’s service; the Lord has reserved John for this. He said to Peter, “If I will that he abide until I come, what is that to thee? Follow thou me” (John 21:22). Paul is not brought into it.

TU In connection with your reference as to the Lord Himself operating through the assembly in ^[p. 219] the millennial day, do I understand that the holy city will not be on the earth but hovering over it? And how would the Lord operate through the assembly? By influence?

JT Oh, I think it will be as Head; He is Head of His body, the assembly.

TU Then if the assembly is not on earth but hovering over it, how would the assembly affect the earth as representing the Lord? By influence or something like that?

JT By influence; to use the figure, in the same way as the sun influences things on the earth.

ADS Earth and heaven will be in accord then, will they not?

JT Quite so; the heavens will be there, for it is one great idea — the heavens and the earth. They are not separated from one another; they will be fully in relation to one another.

CD It is a matter of shining and light, is it not? “And the nations shall walk by its light”.

JT Just so. I think we get much in a symbolic sense even in the present creation as regards all these things, but in that day we get exceptions made; there is no need of the sun or of the moon, no need of natural light in view of the glory of the millennium.

JWF Would you say that as a result of the instruction that we have received, the last part of Psalm 122 should be much in our minds, that is, praying for the peace of Jerusalem? It continues, “Peace be within thy bulwarks, prosperity within thy palaces. For my brethren and companions’ sakes I will say, Peace be within thee!”

JT So that we must not make little of the Old Testament, for “Every scripture is divinely inspired, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for correction, for instruction in righteousness” (2 Timothy 3:16). We must not ignore the Old Testament; it is constantly needed among us; but it is not ‘the Old and the New’, but ‘the New and the Old’ — we begin with the New. The Spirit of God is here in the assembly; the greatest fact that exists on the earth today or in the heavens is that the Spirit of God is here in the assembly.

AHP Is the thought of the service of God carried forward into the next chapter? It says, “And no curse shall be any more; and the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him, and they shall see his face; and his name is on their foreheads”. The note for the word ‘servants’ is ‘bondmen’, but ‘serves’ is ‘latreuo’, ‘priestly service’. I am raising an inquiry as to whether this thought of divine service is recovered and set right in relation to God and His prime thought in regard to men?

JT I thought we should come on to chapter 22; we should at least come to some finish in our minds, and chapter 22 must come into it. But we should not altogether pass by verse 27 of chapter 21: “And nothing common, nor that maketh an abomination and a lie, shall at all enter into it; but those only who are written in the book of life of the Lamb”. That is the finish of chapter 21, and then the 22nd begins, “And he ^[p. 221] shewed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, going out of the throne of God and of the Lamb”. We ought to see that the idea of thirst is taken account of, the idea of refreshment. In the great, glorious and literal sense there is the refreshing thought of a river; not just a spring or a well, but a river, and it is said to be a river of water of life. I thought before we finish we should have the liberality and glory of the thing, the blessedness of it in the idea of a river of refreshment. That is going to be a millennial feature, the idea of refreshment from God, that God will refresh His people on the earth; but it will be heavenly as well because it goes out from the throne of God. It says, “And he shewed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, going out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of its street, and of the river” — notice the recurrence of the word ‘river’ — “on this side and on that side, the tree of life, producing twelve fruits, in each month yielding its fruit; and the leaves of the tree for healing of the nations”. Before we close we should get these thoughts as to the refreshing side of the thing, the body side of the position that God so wonderfully provides for the millennial world, “the world to come”, as we properly call it, “the ... world which is to come, of which we speak” (Hebrews 2:5).

DMH In verse 4 it says, “his name is on their foreheads”; so that we shall greatly revere the name of the Lord Jesus, and all other combinations and associations and great names in this world shall be gone for ever.

JT Just so.

Ques I should like to ask whether this is right — that in chapter 21 the first eight verses bear on eternity, and from verse 9 to verse 4 of chapter 22 it is millennial; and then that verse 5 of chapter 22 is eternal, those are eternal conditions. Is that right?

JT Verse 5 reads, “And night shall not be any more, and no need of a lamp, and light of the sun; for the Lord God shall shine upon them, and they shall reign to the ages of ages”. Well, I think that is about right. But we should get a fuller thought, if we can, of what glories are brought into this chapter 22, and especially as to this matter of the river and the street of it and the fulness of it; and then the leaves of the tree for the healing of the nations, the liberality of it, the bounty of it. But then as you say, there are the eternal conditions, they are not to be overlooked; of course they are wonderful; eternal conditions are coming into it. But the administrative side is so pronounced in chapter 21 that I think it ^[p. 222] ought to be carried away with us; the administrative side is prominent as if God is stressing the thought of it before He introduces eternal conditions. There is nothing to disturb, everything will be ordered administratively so that there is nothing to disturb or distress; all is well and happy and glorious.

JW The word as to the river is “going out of the throne of God”, emphasising further what you have said as to the bounty of administration and fulness of blessing.

JT All leading up to the very edge of eternal conditions. These glorious things are brought in administratively so that everything is regulated, nothing is left at loose ends; it is all of God, it is what God is. He is going to accomplish these thoughts and set out eternal conditions suitable to His own thoughts and heart.

ANW And the completeness of the ‘twelve’ thought is seen in the term ‘adorned’; “the foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with every precious stone”.

J.T. Wonderful!

Ques So the end of the section is Godward, is it not? It is what is Godward here.

JT Yes; God is setting up the thing as He would have it. God is God, and God is love, and He will have things worked out according to what He is Himself. God is love, and it is in eternity that we are coming into what God is. God will be there and God is love. I believe that is the way things will finish with us.

CCT So everything is marked with life in this section: the water of life, and the tree of life producing its fruits, one for each month.

JT The word ‘life’ is greatly stressed here; the tree of life, and the river of water of life are specially to be noted. “The river of God is full of water”, it says in Psalm 65:9; the river of God.

^[p. 223] But then it is the water of life in the entirety of it; it is clear as crystal, everything is open and clear; and there is no hesitation or fear or stress about it on any side; everything is clear and open “unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do” (Hebrews 4:13). But it is all a question of what is according to God’s heart; God is love, everything is to be in accord with that.

ASB Does Peter have that in mind when he speaks of times of refreshing coming from the presence of the Lord, and the restoration of all things? It says, “whom heaven indeed must receive till the times of the restoring of all things” (Acts 3:21).

JT And a new heaven and new earth too wherein dwells righteousness, all that must be put into these two chapters.

JW So that the lamp and the sun — these things recede; they would be according to nature and the greatness of God is filling the scene.

JT God Himself, just so, God Himself. He is the light and the Lamb is the light. There is no need for mere natural light at all, that is the idea of eternity.

JWF The title “Lord God” in verse 5 is the title that God began with in Genesis; according to the note it is ‘Jehovah Elohim’.

JT Very good, referring back to the second of Genesis.

ANW I was impressed with your using the term, “God himself”. In verse 5 the appellation is Jehovah Elohim; in verse 22 of chapter 21 the appellation is “Lord God Almighty”; but in verse 3 of that chapter, in the eternal state, it is “God himself”, “the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall tabernacle with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, their God”.

JT ^[p. 224] It is beautiful that we can come back to these terms that begin in the first of Genesis; and we see how Scripture, as it were, regulates itself so that we can understand it. I think it is very beautiful to see that these terms that have already been used in Genesis can be used now profitably. This is the same God as in the first of Genesis.

CT At the beginning a river went out of Eden, and now this river comes out here from the throne of God.

JT God began with that, God began with a river and He is finishing with it.

DMacd There is the tree of life, too, in Genesis.

JT Just so, the tree of life.

CD So that what is contemplated is a realm sustained in living freshness by the river, and having in it the tree of life. Would that suggest the Holy Spirit and Christ personally?

JT The river — the fulness of the Spirit I think it is. God has revived that to us and I believe we might see it here, that the river really refers to the Spirit Himself, the fulness of it.