MATTHEW'S GOSPEL IN VIEW OF THE ASSEMBLY (4)
MATTHEW’S GOSPEL IN VIEW OF THE ASSEMBLY (4)
JT We have now come to the thought we had before us in taking up the gospel of Matthew, that is, the matter of the assembly. Many questions will arise in our minds as to the place that Peter has in this gospel, and the place he has in relation to the assembly, because it is unique in both. So that in verse 13 the Lord raises the whole question with His disciples as to His Person. We notice also the position — Caesarea-Philippi; the very names indicate the gentile links, and yet the links are decidedly Jewish nevertheless. If the Lord would bring out the matter of the assembly, the Father has to say to it; the Lord would bring that out and also the additional thought of “I also”, and then the Lord would bring out too the place that Peter has, “Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona, for flesh and blood has not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens. And I also”, the additional thought of “I also”, “I say unto thee that thou art Peter”. That is to say the Lord would bring out what Peter was; not who he was but what he was; he was “Peter”, not simply a name but a condition, meaning stone, a stone of the building. This is, as I remarked, really the crux of the whole matter that is now before us, the matter of the assembly and who builds it, and what Peter is — a stone, the material of which it is formed. It is not who he is, as I said, but what he is — he is a stone.
WWM Does stone represent what is spiritual?
JT It is to bring out what Peter was.
ANW In chapter 10, as called with the twelve, he is put first; his name is given as “Simon, who was called Peter”, but here he is it; is that right?”Thou art Peter”.
JT Just so, “Thou art Peter”, it is what he was, not who he was.
RP Would the Lord in addressing him as Simon Bar-jona speak of what he was in responsibility?
JT Just so, son of Jonas; he is a son of Jonas, that is who he is; but what he is is the point, what he is under the name Peter.
ACW Is he looked at in a potential way here?
JT That is right, that is a good word — potential.
FJF Does stone indicate that what he was is abiding?
JT Quite so, permanent, the idea of permanency.
FJF The Lord Himself is said to be “The stone which the builders rejected” (Psalm 118:22).
JT Just so, the builders rejected it, but He is made the Head of the corner.
FJF Does that mean that Peter was characteristically of the rock, the same material?
JT Characteristically of the same material, only it is the difference between rock and stone. ‘Rock’ is a bigger idea, it is the idea of permanency in largeness.
EAL Stone involves divine workmanship, does it not, as against brick which is made by man? Stone is created.
JT You say the stone is divine workmanship, quite so. Brick is a man-made thing, it is processed and burnt. Bricks are good enough for some building but they are in no way equal to stone.
BF Would you say that before the Lord disclosed to Peter what he was, He asked him of his knowledge concerning Himself, the Lord Jesus Christ? “Who do ye say that I am?”
JT Well, yes, but the Lord did not say, ‘Peter, who dost thou say’, but “Who do ye say”. It was a question to all of them, and Peter could answer it,
[p. 64] for he was characteristically the thing himself, the very thing himself.
BF Does it indicate that we must have a knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ to get revelations from Him?
JT It does.
JHP Does the ‘ye’ in that way involve the earlier parts of the gospel that we have been reading, particularly chapter 5, and then chapters 9 and 10 that we have been reading today?
JT Very good, because apostleship links on with it.
ABP Do we have a parallel in Acts 13:9 where it says, “Saul, who also is Paul”? Do we have Paul coming into prominence as to what he is in that chapter?
JT “Who also is”; it speaks of what the man is, he is Paul, a little one, the meaning is that he is little. He is not a great pretentious man like an archbishop or that sort of thing; all that is excluded from these thoughts that we are dealing with.
ABP “Filled with the Holy Spirit” (Acts 13:9).
JT That is it.
JHP I was thinking too of what you were saying this morning about comparative values. Would that enter into it, the Lord’s evaluation here?
JT It would. We were unable to go through the whole thought this morning, but it is well to keep it before us as to comparative values. I do not know how many we are here but we are not a very great many; still, there are values attached to us and they are comparative. We are not all of the same kind or the same value. We have to be discriminative as to what there is before us here in Washington at the present moment and how it is valued in heaven.
ACW Is this a special communication to Peter?
JT I would think so. It says that “Simon Peter answering said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God”. That is what Peter said. “And Jesus answering said to him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona, for flesh and blood has not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens”. The Father has revealed the thing to him; it is a wholly spiritual matter. It was not the Son or the Spirit, it was the Father; He revealed the whole matter to Peter.
CHH The thought of revelation is greater than that of observation, is it not? I was thinking of what we get in Ephesians 1:17, the apostle’s desire that we might have “the spirit of wisdom and revelation”, which is more than observation. The men in the ship in chapter 14 observed certain things and they say, “Truly thou art God’s Son”; but Peter said, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God”, by revelation.
JT Just so, it was a revelation that Peter had and nobody else had it; it was a foundational idea.
FJF Is the Father bringing out what is new now in contrast to the kingdom? The Lord speaks of the householder “who brings out of his treasure things new and old” (Matthew 13:52).
JT I think so.
ANW Does the Lord show that the minds of two divine Persons converge on this man, in the “I also”?
JT Quite so, the “also” means that. The Father had said something to Peter, and now the Lord would say something, and what the Lord says to Peter refers to what he is in quality; that is to say, he is a stone, a stone in the building.
CFE What is the difference between Peter here and Philip in John 14:8 when he says, “Lord, shew us the Father and it suffices us”?
JT The difference between what Philip says and what is said here is very simple. Philip said, “Lord, shew us the Father”, and the Lord said, “Am I so [p. 66] long a time with you, and thou hast not known me, Philip?”. He did not know the Lord though He had been so long a time with him; and of course we all have to challenge ourselves as to that. We are a long time with the Lord ostensibly, professedly, but then how much do we know Him? That is the question that comes up in the heart and mind.
AR Would it be right to say the Lord was waiting for this communication from Peter to bring out this light about the assembly?
JT Undoubtedly; He intended Peter to have this distinction. You get in chapter 20 of John’s gospel other things of a similar nature, but we are dealing with Matthew, and I prefer to keep to Matthew because he is the man that the Lord intended to use to bring out all this as to the truth of the assembly and the gospel.
Ques In Matthew 11 the Father reveals something to the babes; but here it is a revelation to Peter, not to the babes. It is more personal here, is it not?
JT We must quote what the Lord says to His Father about that, “I praise thee, Father, Lord of the heaven and of the earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to babes” (Matthew 11:25); “to babes”. But this is not that, it is to Peter the revelation is made.
JHT The coming of the Messiah was predicted in the Old Testament, but that the Messiah would be the Son of God was not revealed, was it?
JT No, that is revealed in the New.
RWS We have in verse 16 of our chapter that “Simon Peter answering said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God”. He says just enough, does he not, as over against the men we were reading of this morning who spoke too much? He waits for a suited time and then just says enough, just a few words but in such power! “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God”. Is he not an example for us that if we have received something in private we are to wait for a suitable time to give it out?
JT I think he is. Matthew makes Peter the first apostle, “first, Simon, who was called Peter”. But we have to wait for Paul for full assembly light; he does not appear in Matthew or in John or in any of the gospels; we wait for Paul and we get him in his own epistles and we get him, of course, in the book of Acts.
FHL The Lord builds on this confession the great truth as to the assembly, does He not? It is “on this rock”, on the truth of what Peter is saying.
JT That is to say the Father had said certain things to Peter in the sense of revelation; ‘revelation’ is the word used. But the Lord says to Peter, “I also, I say unto thee that thou art Peter” — “thou art Peter”. It is not your name, it is not your father’s name, it is what you are now, that is to say you are a stone in the structure; and that is a wonderful thing for us to understand, that we are to be stones in the structure.
VCL There must have been something entering into what Peter was that was very choice to heaven; because the Father is able to reveal something to him, and the Lord is able to speak to him, and the Spirit of God later on in Acts is able to speak to him. What is the quality standing out in him that should mark us that we might get these free speakings by divine Persons?
JT We have to learn it here where the Spirit of God is, that is where we have to learn it. Peter gets it first from the Father, and then the Lord says, “I also, I say unto thee that thou art Peter”; that is, I have got a great structure:. “on this rock I will build my assembly”, and you are the kind of [p. 68] man that belongs to it; that is the point. “On this rock”, that ‘rock’ is Christ; but Peter is a stone, “thou art Peter”. ‘You are not a rock’, the Lord says to him in effect, ‘but you are Peter, that is to say, you are the kind of man that I am going to use for the structure that I have in mind to build’. “Thou art Peter, and on this rock”, well, the “this” refers to Christ, “on this rock I will build my assembly”. The Lord is saying in effect, I have before Me to build a structure called the assembly. I want material for it and you are the kind of man I want. “Thou art Peter, and on this rock I will build my assembly”; “Thou art” is one thing, but “this” is the Lord Jesus Himself — He is the Rock.
AJEW In the appearings in 1 Corinthians 15 Cephas — or Peter — is first again, but he is not last, is he? The Lord begins with Peter, but He can continue this thought of appearing so that He goes on from that point and leads right on to Paul. It says in chapter 15:5, “and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to above five hundred brethren at once, of whom the most remain until now, but some also have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James; then to all the [p. 70] apostles; and last of all, as to an abortion, he appeared to me also”. I was thinking that again we begin with Cephas — or Peter — as if the Lord has something there that He can begin with; but He builds upon it; He brings in others as He continues the appearings, and eventually leads up to Paul. Is that right?
JT Quite so. But we get more than that there, we get how Paul laboured more than they all. Now tell us more about that, please.
AJEW I was thinking that it just gave us a link between the basic side in Cephas — or Peter — and the opening up of Paul’s ministry to us, Paul [p. 69] himself being brought in as the climax. Verse 9 says, “For I am the least of the apostles, who am not fit to be called apostle, because I have persecuted the assembly of God”.
JT Now that is wonderful, morally wonderful, that he should say that, but he says more.
AJEW “But by God’s grace I am what I am; and his grace, which was towards me, has not been vain; but I have laboured more abundantly than they all”.
JT “I am what I am”, yes, it is what God has done. We have the leading man now, but we have had to wait for him; and now we have him, and he is Paul. He is not Peter, he is Paul.
JHP Do you think there was anything lacking in Peter’s character that God could not use him for that purpose? The thought of the assembly is worked out by Paul, and the thought of sonship, Christ the Son of the living God, is worked out by John; but Peter did not go on to open up that line.
JT Well, those two are very near in 1 Corinthians 15; Paul goes very near to it there if we go back to the passage and read it again, because I would think the dear brethren will get great help this afternoon if we get all these thoughts about the foundation and about Paul; and the distinction that is made by the Lord Himself — first by the Father and then by the Lord Himself as to Peter.
JHP “For I delivered to you, in the first place, what also I had received, that Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures; and that he was buried; and that he was raised the third day, according to the scriptures; and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to above five hundred brethren at once, of whom the most remain until now, but some also have fallen asleep, then he appeared to James; then to all the apostles; and last of all, as to an abortion, he appeared to me also” (1 Corinthians 15:3 - 8).
JT We have not got that information anywhere else but here; we must remember that so that we must all pay attention to it. The word ‘abortion’, meaning ‘born out of due time’, is a very remarkable expression.
JHP Paul goes on to say, “For I am the least of the apostles, who am not fit to be called apostle, because I have persecuted the assembly of God. But by God’s grace I am what I am; and his grace, which was towards me, has not been vain; but I have laboured more abundantly than they all, but not I, but the grace of God which was with me”.
JT Now it is wonderful to think on that, to sit down and think of Paul; he is there in the letters to Corinth depicted as he laboured.
FJF I was going to ask whether that very important phrase that he was born out of due time means that his ministry really belonged, as connected with the assembly, to eternity; whether the twelve were connected more with the kingdom and the ministry that they had in the Acts, but Paul coming in his ministry really brought in what was for the eternal glory of God?
JT Oh, I would go with that; it is a question of the assembly and the place that Paul has in the assembly and with it according to the divine mind. Peter did not have it; therefore Paul takes the lead in all these matters. It is a remarkable thing that it is so, that the Lord should order it so that Paul would have this place. He is our apostle; Peter was the apostle of the circumcision, but Paul is the apostle of the gentiles. “I magnify mine office”, he says in Romans 11:13; I magnify it. We all want to know the meaning of the things in this chapter, for we shall not get the gain of them if we do not know their meaning.
EAL “For other foundation can no man lay besides that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ” (1 Corinthians 3:11).
ANW “But by God’s grace I am what I am” (1 Corinthians 15:10). It is just what we are.
JT We are all in the hand of God; God is the Maker of us all, but as you say it is just a question of what we are. “I am what I am”, each one of us is that; whatever he is, God has made him that.
VCL Is that thought of what we are carried forward in the beginning of Acts where it speaks of the crowd of names, about a hundred and twenty? It is not who they were, but a question of the quality that was there.
FJF Was the revelation that Peter had ‘stone’ in his soul? Did that constitute the stone character in his soul?
JT You use the word ‘soul’; of course there must be much more than the word ‘soul’ to cover a man.
FJF I was wondering whether that revelation that the Father was pleased to give him, I suppose favouring him above all others at that moment, constituted ‘stone’ in Peter himself?
JT Undoubtedly; but the product was himself — that was the stone, he was the stone. And so Revelation 21 leaves out Paul; in dealing with the foundations of the wall he is eliminated, because it is a matter of the apostles of the Lamb, which is very remarkable.
LLP Referring to Paul’s word as to Peter and himself in Galatians that he was himself to go to the nations and Peter to the Jews, would that be confirmed by the Lord Himself in John 21 where He appoints Peter to feed His sheep and feed His lambs?
[p. 72] JT Just so; there is great distinction in that.
LLP He is characteristically a Jewish apostle in that way?
JT Quite so, characteristically a Jewish apostle; that is what he is. Paul is the characteristic gentile apostle, he is our apostle; we can rightly say he is our apostle if we are gentiles.
CHH I suppose Peter would have the distinction of preceding Paul by having the keys of the kingdom as you get in Acts 10?
JT Quite so; but he lost his ground, you know, which is a very sorrowful thing. “I withstood him to the face”, Paul says (Galatians 2:11); he was carried away with James’ influence and Paul had to stand the ground against them all at one time.
CHH Yes; but whilst Paul withstood him to the face later on Peter spoke very well of the apostle Paul, speaking about his writings as being Scripture.
JT Quite so; because these apostles were real men, men with the divine nature; they were heavenly men, they were real men that formed the assembly. So that all these things that we have mentioned refer to these twelve men as having quality. Then Paul comes in afterwards, Paul and Barnabas too, so that there were others added. They were only twelve at the beginning, and then Judas was omitted because he failed altogether; he betrayed the Lord; he sold Him.
CHH I was thinking rather of the part that Peter had as having the keys of the kingdom of the heavens; that is, would that furnish the necessary moral basis for the assembly? I mean we must furnish the basis.
JT Yes; but at the same time the one man that the Lord had in mind had yet to come; we have to bear that in mind, that one man had yet to come, and that man was Paul. Barnabas of course was with him, but Barnabas was carried away with [p. 73] dissimulation while Paul stood his ground. We get nobody like Paul in that sense.
RWS Does the Lord look down through the whole dispensation when He speaks about hades’ gates not prevailing against the assembly? I was thinking of the great importance of understanding what the assembly is today, because of the presumption of Rome, and the speculation of Protestantism as to who Christ is, whether Jeremias or a prophet. The truth is in the assembly and we are encouraged that it will go through, that hades’ gates will not prevail against it. Did not the Lord in saying that, look down through the whole dispensation and see our time with all its difficulties?
JT I am sure He did, and the great revival too that we have part in now. It surely must have been in the Lord’s mind from the very start.
RP Why is it “the Son of the living God” rather than ‘the Son of God’?
JT It is just in the word ‘living’ I would say, as distinguishing it from all else; “Thou art the ... Son of the living God”. It is a word that runs through Scripture. “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God”, wonderful statement!
EEH Does not Peter use that word himself regarding living stones in his epistle?
JT Just so: “yourselves also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood” (1 Peter 2:5).
Ques This confession is made to the Lord Himself. Is there any point in that for us, that it is not only a question of the gospel but of what we are able to say to divine Persons about Themselves?
JT Very good; I am sure the Lord is indicating to us that we should be able to speak as we ought to speak.
[p. 74] Ques In Hebrews 13:15 we have, “the fruit of the lips confessing his name”. It is confessing His name to the Father there, is it not?
JT Yes.
GGB Can we become suitable material for the assembly without this revelation?
JT I do not think so, So that every saint here today is in heaven’s mind for all this, that we belong to the assembly, and we belong to all this that we are talking about. Only that Paul is the leading man in the assembly, because he has got the ministry of the assembly; the mystery belongs to Paul, to nobody else. It is very important that we should make these distinctions in our minds and to one another too, so that we can speak with intelligence.
GGB Then we should receive the Lord’s own confirmation too, I suppose, as He says to Peter, “I also”.
JT Just so. Think of all the dear brethren here, and the young people especially — they are always before us — I mean as to whether they are really taking in what we are talking about. And the sisters too, are they all taking in what we are talking about as to the assembly, as belonging to it, as being stones in that wonderful structure, stones in it?
ABP So that you would place great importance upon the clarification of the truth as to the sonship of Christ which God developed some twenty years ago for us in relation to entering into the assembly intelligently now? I was thinking of the truth as to the sonship of Christ, as to the position He took up in manhood; and therefore the part we have with Him in relation to all our eternal blessing as the One who has become Man, and the way it has thrown light upon the truth in John’s gospel in a special way.
JT Very good.
[p. 75] RWS I would like some help on revelations. Do we get revelations today?
JT Well, the apostle says, “I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago” (2 Corinthians 12:1, 2). I do not say that that is going on now, but I would hesitate to say it is not. I mean to say, take all these meetings we have had, some of us for the last fifty years and others even more than that, what meetings we have had, and what disclosures God has graciously granted to us in these last closing days as we call them! What wonderful things have been brought out for us, Mr. Darby having been the man to do it. We have had enlargements on these, but the idea is that they are wonderful disclosures from God through the Lord Jesus to the assembly in the last one hundred and twenty years. The question now is whether we realise that these are knowable facts, and whether they are known to us. I am talking to all that are here, brothers and sisters; how much do we know about these things that belong to the assembly? Is the younger element here, brothers and sisters, taking on these things, and becoming characterised by them?
JC Is not this a day of great possibilities? Revelations are possible, Paul said, “Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?” (1 Corinthians 9:1); and again, “I will come to visions and revelations”, it may be possible, may it not?
JT That is the question I am seeking to raise with every brother and sister here this afternoon, as to what he knows about these matters, whether he is able to talk about them intelligently.
ANW 1 Corinthians 14:1 says, “Follow after love, and be emulous of spiritual manifestations, but rather that ye may prophesy”. Does that wonderful chapter regarding prophetic ministry seem to stand in that relation?
[p. 76] JT Quite so, but when was that written? The Bible was written in the beginning of christianity, so that all of that has come to pass. But then we are coming into the thing today and our children are coming into it; and our forefathers came into it; they have known something about it, and we are here this afternoon to learn something about it. And if we are conversing with one another, or if a group of all sisters are talking together, can we talk about these things intelligently?
CHH The first prayer of the apostle in Ephesians desires that we might have “the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge of him” (chapter 1:17). Do we get the spirit of it? “The spirit of wisdom and revelation”, it says.
JT I. would say the spirit of it, because the Spirit is here, the Spirit of God Himself is here; and therefore the thing is tangible to us, so that we can, as it were, speaking reverently, put our hands on the blessed Spirit of God. That is the wonderful thing that enters into our times. But then what we are reading in this book of Matthew was written nineteen hundred years ago, and there have been no revelations so far as we know, since.
GH That verse in 211:2 used to read: ‘Still the Spirit is revealing’, but then it was changed to ‘Still the Spirit is unfolding’.
JT Quite so, and I would say that, because it is a question of the Spirit of God being Himself actually down here. He is down here, and here for us; He is here to open up these things to us and that is the great point this afternoon, that we have the Spirit of God actually amongst us. It is a verity, a wonderful thing to think of, that we here can say this afternoon that the Spirit of God Himself is actually [p. 77] amongst us.
EAL Last night in the address that we had from our dear brother we read, “And it shall be in the last days, saith God, that I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions” (Acts 2:17). What is the distinction between a vision and a revelation?
JT Well, I am not saying that there are not things going on that have the character of revelation; but it is a question of ministry today; it is not a question of actual unfolding of Scripture as we have it here; it is a question of ministry, and the ministry still goes on, and has been going on peculiarly for the last hundred and fifty years. We are coming into it now, and many of our younger people too are coming into this matter, and the question is, as I said, whether we can talk about these things together with intelligence.
EAL It is a developing matter. I mean the truth is always broadening out to us, is it not?
JT Oh, it is; it is wonderful what has come out in the last hundred and twenty years!
Ques Have you in mind what John says in Revelation 22:18, “I testify to every one who hears the words of the prophecy of this book. If any one shall add to these things, God shall add to him the plagues which are written in this book”? The Scriptures are final, are they not?
JT They are, and that is the point that I am trying to emphasise, that the Scriptures are final. “Every scripture is divinely inspired, and profitable” (2 Timothy 3:16). The writing of Scripture is not going on now; that has not taken place since the apostolic times; we have nothing of that now. What is going on is the Spirit of God’s activity in using gifts. There are certain ones called gifts; God has given gifts, and they are used of God to unfold the truth to us. And that is going on at the present time.
EAL [p. 78] That is what I think we all need to come to, that the prophetic ministry is to stir us up to see how much we lack in the truth.
JT Quite so. It is not exactly prophecy, it is prophetic ministry; it is ministry that can be characterised or spoken of as prophetic. We have been having meetings of that kind all along for perhaps a hundred and twenty years.
BW It says in 1 Corinthians 14:30, “But if there be a revelation to another sitting there ...” Is that revelation distinguished from a prophetic word?
JT There is no revelation today. The Scriptures are complete; the canon of Scripture is complete. We may as well accept that, because it is so. The ministry is going on nevertheless, but the canon of Scripture is complete. These books are contained in it; they convey to us variety, these books from Matthew to the end of Revelation.
EAL Mr. Darby wrote that someone came to him and said that he had a revelation; but he could not show it to him in the Scriptures, so Mr. Darby could not accept the fact that he had it.
JT Quite so. There are many like the Mormons and such people who claim that they have revelations, but they are falsifying the truth.
RP What is the force of the word ‘reveal’ in Galatians 1:16, where it says that “God ... was pleased to reveal his Son in me”?
JT It is a past event; “God”, it says there, “was pleased to reveal his Son in me, that I may announce him as glad tidings among the nations”. Well, that is the past tense; that has happened; it is Paul saying what had happened through him.
RP I was just wondering as to the difference between revealing His Son in me, and revealing His Son to me?
JT It happened ‘in’ Paul; that is a very good way to put it, because ‘to’ is quite right as well as ‘in’. But revealing “in me” is some operation that God had made in Paul that constituted him the superior man as regards the assembly, because he had the ministry of the mystery. Only he had it, and therefore he is our apostle, and we have all these great advantages in the unfoldings in his writings. We have the writings from Matthew to the end of Revelation — though all are not his writings — but we have all that now for our study and to enter into. We are here this afternoon with the hope that everybody will get something, because it is the assembly time; it is the time of the building up of the assembly, and it is going to be complete very soon.
GGB The Lord says, “On this rock I will build my assembly”. Now we know that every believer is in the assembly, but we also speak of suitable assembly material. Are we all conscious of being built in by the Lord Himself?
JT But then the question is, before we go on to that, Is every believer in the assembly? There may be believers that are not in the assembly; they are not sealed; they may be born anew but they are not sealed. Is that clear to you?
GGB I am glad to hear you say that; but at the time of the rapture every believer will form part of the assembly?
JT I believe it fully; because God will do much in a short time, I believe, in the winding up of things.
GGB You mean at this present time that some believers are not in the assembly?
JT Quite so, I am sure of that. Many are not delivered in their souls really.
GGB That should be a very searching matter.
JT It should.
EAL Could we put it this way, that they are of the assembly, but not in the [p. 80] assembly?
JT They are of it because it is a question of the divine mind; they are of it, but they are not in it if they are not sealed; and if they have not got the Holy Spirit they are not sealed.
FJF We have sometimes to meet a statement that those believers who have not the Spirit will be left behind when the Lord comes.
JT God does not put things in that way. I believe He is going to take out every one that is intended in His mind for the assembly, and He will fit them for it before the assembly is finished. God can do it in a very short time if He wishes, you know; He can do very much in a very short time.
RWS May I ask at this point about ministry we have had as to the assembly being the only family? I would like to ask about children, those under age or infants; they are not of the assembly family, are they?
JT No, but you see how wonderfully gracious God is. I would say that God is wonderfully gracious to His children. God would say to you, ‘You have a large family, and I hope to bring them all in’. He would convey to you and to all of us who have children that He is ready to bring them all into the assembly; it is the wonderful grace of God, I think. We are in a critical time, we are right in the time before the millennium; we have come along to the bordering time of the assembly’s finish here. The whole idea is going to be finished. In the meantime God is greatly stressing the idea of the household and that we should take care of our children, and God is saying, ‘I will take My part, I will look after them from My side; but do you look after them, see that they are brought into the assembly and properly cared for and nurtured and taught the word of God’. I believe that is what is going on and it is a remarkable time [p. 81] for us.
FHL You are using the scripture, “For also in the power of one Spirit we have all been baptised into one body” (1 Corinthians 12:13) in relation to the assembly?
JT That is right, “baptised by one Spirit into one body”.
ACW What you are bringing before us would give us to have greater appreciation of what is coming out in the ministry, that we may be in the spirit of the apostle Paul in having conscious knowledge. In his writings he says, “I know”. He does not ‘think’ or ‘believe’, but he says, “I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded” (2 Timothy 1:12). Would not the ministry bring us to that by the Spirit?
JT It would.
LLP What about Ephesians 1:13 in the light of what you are saying; “Having heard the word of the truth, the glad tidings of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, ye have been sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise”? I do not quite catch what you mean by those believing not perhaps being sealed.
JT When Paul says in speaking to the Ephesians, “Ye have been sealed”, he knew them; I am not speaking of people that I know exactly, but he did know them; he knew them all.
ANW There were twelve men in Acts 19, believers, but they had not the Spirit, and hence were not in the assembly surely until they had.
JT When we get Paul saying certain things about certain ones in Ephesus, he knew them well; he knew them accurately with spiritual discernment and he could speak rightly of them; we cannot speak as Paul spoke.
GGB You mean the sealing does not follow automatically upon the believing?
JT No, it does not, but believers as a rule are sealed. But then there are certain things that may [p. 82] happen to believers that may hinder them; certain conditions may arise in their histories that may hinder their being in the assembly, and we have to face all that. We have not got the ability or the wisdom that Paul had to speak as to these things. He knew, God gave him wisdom to know these things, but we have not that; we have to admit our limitations.
WWM It is Paul that spoke of what God will do “in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye” (1 Corinthians 15:52).
JT How much He can do in a moment! That is what I am endeavouring to say. What God can do is one thing, but then we may be dilatory about what we should do, and that is another thing; many of us are dilatory about things that we should have done.
VCL You have said recently, which helps me, that parents and the brethren can be free to speak to God asking that the Spirit might be given to one and another. As to our children, you would say we should be quite free to ask?
JT Many of us, I am sure, have been given to that, asking the Lord to give the Spirit to the children and the grandchildren, and we need to do it. But we are very dilatory, many of us are quite dilatory on the matter and let things go; but God is not dilatory, He intends to do certain things and He will do them.
DMacd What does Paul mean in 1 Corinthians 15:1,2 when he says, “But I make known to you, brethren, the glad tidings which I announced to you, which also ye received, in which also ye stand, by which also ye are saved, ... unless indeed ye have believed in vain”?
JT As to believing in vain? He is just speaking of facts. Paul wrote it and wrote it to Corinth; he knew what their characteristics were, God had given him that ability, and we might as well admit that we [p. 83] do not have that ability. Are you satisfied in your mind as to that?
DMacd I cannot understand how anybody could believe in vain. It says, “Believe ... and thou shalt be saved” (Acts 16:31).
JT Why should it not be? How many you have seen, that you can look back upon and say of them, Those persons had not the Holy Spirit! We have had to say that of some persons that were even breaking bread, that they had not the Holy Spirit; the characteristics were not there.
ANW The question the apostle raises in Acts 19:2, is, “Did ye receive the Holy Spirit when ye had believed?” That is the question.
JT Just so; they said they did not know about the Spirit.
RWS Hebrews 6:4 - 6 speaks of those who “have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God, and the works of power of the age to come, and have fallen away, crucifying for themselves as they do the Son of God, and making a show of him”.
JT So even here today, we are here at this meeting and we are partakers of the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit is here today operating at these meetings; but there may be people such as I am alluding to who may fall away altogether and prove that they never had the Holy Spirit.
JS Matthew 25 would show that five of the virgins were wise and five were foolish.
Rem And as to demons, James 2:19 says, “The demons even believe, and tremble”.
LLP In Acts 8:13 it says, “And Simon also himself believed”; yet we know his history.
FNW It says in John 2:23 - 25, “And when he was Jerusalem, at the passover, at the feast, many believed on his name, beholding his signs which he wrought. But Jesus [p. 84] himself did not trust himself to them, because he knew all men, and that he had not need that any should testify of man, for himself knew what was in man”.
JT Quite so; now that is all very simple and plain and very solemn. Because, while I would not impute it to any, yet it is just possible that many of us within hearing today may not be sealed by the Holy Spirit at all; they may never have had the Holy Spirit. But at the same time I believe God is very wonderfully gracious and is giving us to understand that it is the time of the Spirit, it is the time of giving the Spirit, and why do we not get Him? He is available to us, “For every one that asks receives ... how much rather shall the Father who is of heaven give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?” (Luke 11:10,13). Why are we not taking advantage of that? There are many that one has had to do with for years, and one could say that at one time they looked as if they were real and had got the Spirit, and then they fall away. The world has had influence with them and they do not go forward. Well, we just have to bow to that, just carrying on as we are doing every day, trying to get the young people, everybody that comes within our reach, to believe the gospel; “Repent and believe in the glad tidings” (Mark 1:15), the word is; God is not failing on His side; then the question is; Why do so many miss it? Because they are careless, I would say. Therefore they need watching; and we need to carry on these meetings that we are having all these years. I do not see anything else to do but to do that, to keep on doing it.
CHH In connection with Ephesians 1:13, “having heard the word of the truth, the glad tidings of your salvation”, I suppose we may say that very many are converted without hearing the word of the truth; but eventually they might come under the [p. 85] truth and it would be like a second conversion. Would that be right?
JT There is so much that is unreal abroad in the so-called profession, there is so very much of that kind that is unreal, that it casts you upon God that we might keep on; as we know that God is using us, that we might keep on as we have been doing. And God will not fail us; there will be results. I believe that we can say to the brethren that there will be results. Let us keep on; let us not lose heart.
FHL Can we link this on with the scripture we had this morning, “According to your faith, be it unto you” (Matthew 9:29)?
JT I am sure we can.
JHP I was thinking that we should not be too stereotyped in our views, should we? We have that part of the history of Peter in this very chapter where the Lord had to say to him, “Get away behind me, Satan”; and later He says to him, “When thou are converted, strengthen thy brethren” (Luke 22:32). So that God’s ways are wonderful in that way. He may take different ways with different people. Would you say that?
JT I would say that fully.
ABP Does not John’s gospel suppose that we are getting fresh touches all the time?
JT I do think so, remarkably so; John’s gospel is opening up to us in a remarkable way. And I would say to the brethren not to give up heart, “for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not” (Galatians 6:9), it says; “if we faint not”. That does not refer to persons that are unconverted; it refers to young people, persons that are in the field, as it were, that are being reaped, brought into the garner; but the question is to be patient and wait, that “in due season we shall reap, if we faint not”. Keep on at it, let us be encouraged to keep on at it.
FJF “Your labour is not in vain in the Lord”.
LLP Would you say that the Lord’s parable in Matthew 13 would put us on our guard as to this kind of thing? It shows in the parable of the sower the possibility of failure as to the results. It says in verse 19, “From every one who hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the wicked one comes and catches away what was sown in his heart: this is he that is sown by the wayside. But he that is sown on the rocky places — this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, but has no root in himself, but is for a time only; and when tribulation or persecution happens on account of the word, he is immediately offended”.
JT Now all these people are before us this afternoon. Young people here, let them get on their guard about all this and see to it that their case is not like these. There are things stated in Matthew 13 that are warnings to us.
LLP Who is at fault when these things happen, when failure comes in? We have young people among us ofttimes about whom we are quite happy, and the next thing we are mourning about them. Is it our fault?
JT Very likely; so that we must apply ourselves more strenuously to get results.
FJF Did not Paul stay a long time to seek to help people, for eighteen months in Corinth, and then three years in Ephesus?
JT Well, the book of Acts certainly affords us great information in all these matters, as to the truth of conversion and coming into the possession of the Spirit of God and coming into the assembly. The book of Acts is full of it, and it is for us to study it carefully and look into it prayerfully. There is no doubt that results are being reached, but let us be more strenuous about it so that we get more results, more definite results.
[p. 87] Ques May I ask a question about this victory over the gates of hades? In Revelation 3:9 it speaks of those of the synagogue of Satan, that “they shall come and shall do homage before thy feet”. Would those who know a little about that be in the good of this victory?
JT I think the book of Revelation has to be taken into account as to its peculiar character. It is not like the book of Acts; things are not definite as they are in Acts. The book of Revelation deals with the very great indefiniteness as to the service of God that existed down through the Middle Ages, the kind of service that would be carried on and the assumed results reached; but they are not so reliable as they are in the book of Acts. Results in the book of Revelation are not reliable in that sense. It is a case of workmen who were growing weary; they were growing unfit and the results were not nearly so great as they had been in the book of Acts; we just have to face all that and seek to make ourselves more diligent to reach the results that we wish to have and to get our children saved and brought into the assembly. That is what I would say.
LLP What are you going to do when they are in the assembly?
JT That is the real difficulty, to keep them in, to keep them walking in the truth according to the right principles that are laid down in the book of Acts or in the epistles.
LLP You are putting your hand on things that definitely have been and are an exercise to this locality.
JT That is very good.
ANW That is the prophetic character of the ministry: “Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet” (John 4:19).
FJF Is it not a question now of the elders? What are the elders doing?
JT That is a good question.
CH [p. 88] What about the binding and loosing in verse 19? It says, “And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of the heavens; and whatsoever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be bound in the heavens; and whatsoever thou mayest loose on the earth shall be loosed in the heavens”. We get something similar in Matthew 18:18; and in John 20.
JT Let us see what John 20 says. John is the spiritual side. It seems clear that we should bring in John at this point. He says, “When therefore it was evening on that day, which was the first day of the week, and the doors shut where the disciples were, through fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and says to them, Peace be to you. And having said this, he shewed to them his hands and his side. The disciples rejoiced therefore, having seen the Lord. Jesus said therefore again to them, Peace be to you: as the Father sent me forth, I also send you. And having said this, he breathed into them, and says to them, Receive the Holy Spirit”.
We should notice that “having said this, he breathed into them”. The Lord breathed into them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit”. He did not say this to Peter in Matthew. This is found in John’s gospel; it is a collective idea.
CH It says, “Receive the Holy Spirit: whose soever [p. 89] sins ye remit, they are remitted to them; whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained”.
JT ‘Ye’ is plural, it is not just Peter. It is John’s ministry and it is the saints in a plural sense, that is, these things are open to them. Now this is John’s special touch dealing with this matter that we are now on. John’s special touch, and it is not hid. It is the saints that are in mind here, it is the plural; the saints are to come into all this by the Lord’s own action: “he breathed into them, and says to them, Receive the Holy Spirit: whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted to them; whosoever sins ye retain, they are retained”. These are great facts dealing with this matter that we are now speaking of.
FJF Is it because the Holy Spirit is there with them that they can administer the remission? I mean that when the Lord had gone on high the power still remained in the assembly, because God was present in the assembly.
JT I think so. The only thing that has to be added to all this is what was said at the beginning as to the finality or the completion of the word of God. When that is finished we have to leave things, and go on according to what we are doing now, carrying on as we can, God helping us; because God has not left the brethren; He is helping us, and He is looking for results through us. We are coming to it in a small way, but then it is to be in a greater way.