THE MINISTRY OF ELISHA IN ITS PRACTICAL VALUE (3)
[p. 259] THE MINISTRY OF ELISHA IN ITS PRACTICAL VALUE (3)
JT It is not in mind merely to call attention to certain events in the life of Elisha, but to enquire what is the bearing of the truth in regard to him. But first there may be some enquiry as to what was brought out yesterday afternoon in regard to the sisters being present at the care meetings, and also as to the subject of singing in the care meetings. It is mentioned not that we should devote our time entirely to these points, but as to whether there is anything to come out that would be of service to the truth generally before we proceed to the subject of this chapter.
SMcC Have you overnight received any further confirmation in regard to the sisters being present in the care meeting?
JT In truth it has been a very full time, so that I cannot say with any definiteness that I have received further light since yesterday; but I should be glad to receive anything you may have.
SMcC We have all been talking over the matter; and in relation to Acts 15 I should like to ask if there is any point where you think the sisters would be asked to go out?
JT No, there is no point at which the sisters should be asked to go out because the assembly is involved there, and the assembly must include the sisters.
SMcC That helps, because it has been current in our minds that the one part of the chapter involved the assembly together, and then the next section just the brothers; the next section, investigation, and the last section the full administrative status. But according to what we had yesterday and what we are now saying, that needs looking [p. 260] into.
JT It does; and there is certainly a keen need for looking into the whole matter that has been raised from the meetings yesterday, because we all need help, and I think we all are ready for it, by the Spirit of God. He would give us help.
AR Is there a distinction between verse 4 and verse 6 of the chapter?
JT I do not think I would make a great distinction; but I think we should do well to read the chapter again, because it is so full of detail. It is the only chapter of the kind we have in the New Testament. We might say that it implies a church council, but we do not so regard it, we just call it a chapter of the Scriptures that is instructive. (Acts 15 read).
AH In chapter 4 of the book of Ruth Boaz at first calls ten men specifically, but later he addresses the elders and all the people.
JT Quite so, all the people would include the sisters, you mean.
RWS Verse 4 of Acts 15 seems to link on with verse 12; the multitude in verse 12 would certainly include the sisters who would be listening to the account of the work of God.
AB Our meetings throughout the week and on the Lord’s day have an assembly character, as could be substantiated from Scripture. We have the service of God in 1 Corinthians 11; and according to Acts 20, the reading meetings, as also in 1 Corinthians 3 in relation to the temple of God and the light being there; then in Acts 12 the assembly is connected with prayer; it says there was prayer made by the assembly to God for Peter, so connecting our prayer meeting with the assembly now. We have not scriptures in regard to our care meetings being connected with the assembly; but in Acts 15 is there not something of an assembly status involving all the brothers and sisters? So that we should keep [p. 261] in our minds, if something comes up that has to be adjusted, that all should be conducted in a dignified way as being in relation to the assembly. If we looked at the care meeting in the light of the dignity of the assembly it would be greater to us.
JT I would say it does imply the assembly.
AB We have been viewing it more from our present circumstances than from the assembly side.
JT Verses 3 and 4 should be noted; there must have been sisters there, and the multitude in verse 12 would have included sisters.
SMcC Between verse 4 and verse 12 there is no idea of the sisters going out; it is all one meeting I think. Verses 5 and 6 have been supposed to follow verse 4, whereas it is all of a piece. Verse 5 is what happened historically; verse 6 rightly follows verse 4, it links with verse 4.
JT It is a very important matter that “all the multitude” were present while the work of God generally at that time was related by the apostles. It seems to me impossible morally that the sisters should be excluded at such a time as that, excluded from the interest in the work of God generally, abroad in the world. That agrees with what you said?
SMcC Exactly. I think that is what we are getting at, that the multitude includes the sisters, and that it is all one meeting that we have here.
JT Then it says that “it seemed good ... with the whole assembly” in verse 22; and in verse 28 it should be noted that the Holy Spirit is brought in, which is obviously an assembly matter. The multitude alluded to all through must be assumed to include sisters as well as brothers; the sisters could not be excluded.
AH Is it established by verse 27 of the previous chapter, and also by verse 3 of this chapter, that [p. 262] Paul and Barnabas were not set on their way by the brothers in care, but by the assembly?
JT That confirms all we have been saying.
TS There is a remark by F.E.R. which he made in this country in which he said, ‘he would never call the brothers together; he would call the elders together’.
JT It is a question if we can speak in that sense at the present time as they did in the beginning, but the truth must be there. There must be the idea of elders who care for things. That is all I would say as to that. F.E.R. usually left things like that for the brethren to work out.
BT Could a sister be an elder? We have sisters in sonship in the morning meeting; could a sister also be an elder?
JT Scripture would not warrant that.
BT Would verse 6 in relation to the apostles and elders be similar to the ten men of the elders in Ruth? Could it be that there were certain matters that came to the elders before they came to the brethren generally? Not necessarily a care meeting, but that there were certain matters that came to the elders first? I was only wondering if locally certain matters might come to the elders before coming to the attention of the saints generally.
JT I think we ought to take the statement as it stands. We cannot say we have apostles and elders today; that was at the beginning of christianity.
BT I was thinking of the ten men in Ruth, whether that was a like matter, or would you say not?
JT That is not the order in the New Testament, that is the Old Testament order. We cannot apply Old testament Scriptures too exactly as to statements or words. You cannot say they are just the equivalent of the same words in the New Testament because we must make way in our minds for the way [p. 263] in which the Spirit of God speaks in the Old and in the New. As we group things in the Scriptures, it is the new and the old, the new first; the New Testament must regulate everything in these matters.
DrW Are there not two questions in this chapter? The first question is as to circumcision; it says, “they arranged that Paul and Barnabas, and certain others from amongst them, should go up ... to the apostles and elders about this question”. Is that not a basis for our having a preliminary care meeting of enquiry — not that we claim to be apostles and elders, but that we act in that spirit — as to grave questions which come up?
JT As to the idea of the apostles and elders — I think the spirit of that might be carried into what we say, the spirit of it; but we cannot formalise things very well. It is better to go by what is actually in Scripture for regulating assembly order at the present time. Words used in the Old Testament might be brought into the New literally, but not in the spirit of them; in the spirit of things the New comes first. We cannot put them together and make the same order of words or phrases applicable in the New Testament as is found in the Old. The New Testament has great moral pre-eminence over the whole matter.
DrW What would you say about verse 2, and the arrangement there as to those who should go up to Jerusalem?
JT A group of brethren could arrange that any time; it is a question of wisdom. Do you agree with that?
DrW It is a little difficult, having learned that we should have a care meeting and be together in the spirit of the apostles and elders, so as to enquire into questions which could not be openly discussed when sisters were [p. 264] present.
JT The chapter we just read indicates clearly that the word ‘assembly’ implies sisters; they must have been present; that is all I would say there.
RWS Verse 4 precedes verse 6, is that not important? Verse 4 says, “They were received by the assembly”, so the sisters were there when this matter was related.
JT Undoubtedly; that is what I would say.
AH Would you say that this great attack on the truth really required temple light to meet it? The whole assembly had to be there for temple light to be secured.
JT Temple light is needed; we can thank God that we have temple light, and while the Holy Spirit is here we shall have temple light. We can act in it even if we have not the apostles. The temple implies the Spirit and the assembly, and the assembly implies the sisters. The sisters must be present, the assembly requires that the sisters be present.
AH That greatly helps.
EAL I would refer to the remark just made that we are accustomed to certain things. This very chapter is to set aside a custom that is in the law of Moses but was set aside in the cross. We see in chapter 21 that Paul was a little weak about going back to it. We do not go back to the law of Moses any more, we go on to the truth that we have in the Spirit.
JT Therefore we may reiterate the fact that the New Testament acquires a certain pre-eminence. In fact the old economy was in a large measure set aside in view of the present New Testament Scriptures.
JRH There are three verses in this chapter that apply distinctly to the apostles and elders, verses 2, 4, and 6, and in the following chapter, verse 4. I would like to ask how you would regard these apostles and elders in this chapter. Are they [p. 265] responsible men acting under God for the help of all the saints?
JT Let us turn back to chapter 2 and read verses 37 to 47. Verse 42 speaks of the “teaching and fellowship of the apostles”; that was governing the whole position; it was authoritative. Now I submit to the brethren that this passage indicates clearly the place the apostles had at the outset; the whole position is clearly dominated by the place the apostles had — they dominated everything. The authority of the Old Testament is not consulted; the apostles took that place. I think we can easily accept that.
JRH Quite so, but what I want to get at is the reason why the apostles and elders were spoken of by themselves here. In other places they are linked with the assembly, but verses 2 and 6 in chapter 15 speak only of the apostles and elders.
JT But then these verses we have read in chapter 2 speak of the whole position, the fellowship inaugurated on the authority of the apostles; and that stands in christianity.
JRH Well then, in this decision at Antioch to send to the apostles and elders at Jerusalem, the idea was to take up the matter with responsible men there who had authority from God in relation to the promotion of the truth?
JT Quite so; the same thing applies now in the spirit of it.
JRH So then when the assembly is coupled with them, is there the idea of the full assembly authority, do you think?
JT Just so; verse 42 of chapter 2 says that “they persevered in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles”. The word ‘fellowship’ is greatly stressed there as well as the teaching and they continued [p. 266] in that.
SJH As we have not the apostles today, is the authority vested in the assembly?
JT I would say that.
EAL Is verse 22 important in connection with linking the apostles and elders with the whole assembly? That is, those that went out with Paul and Barnabas went from the whole assembly.
JT Just- so. I am sure the sisters should be there; the tenor of the whole matter implies that, I believe. The influence of the sisters under God has a sobering, subduing effect, a beneficial effect, just as we were saying about the use of the minstrel. It had a beneficial effect with Elisha, and every meeting should begin with minstrelsy, that is, with a note of praise to God in the assembly. There ought to be a general understanding as to what is meant as conveyed in Acts 15.
AR To make things definite, will you just tell us how you think this meeting should be announced on the Lord’s day morning?
JT We can afford to wait, and arrive at those points in course of time. The matter will come into current language amongst us according to the truth that has been asserted; we shall have current language for it in time if we are just patient.
CHH Would not one of the advantages of such a meeting be that things could be completed immediately?
JT You mean in such a meeting as that in Acts 15? Just so, whenever the circumstances require it; that is what I would say.
TNW Would that be confirmed in the three steps that we have often alluded to in Matthew 18? They seem to be very simple steps; first the individual, then two or three others, then the whole assembly.
JT I think that is conclusive. And I would propose that now we proceed with chapter 4 of 2 Kings. What we have had yesterday afternoon [p. 267] and today has been largely a diversion, but of great importance as dealing with the whole matter of the truth; and we are always ready for that of course. As convened in this way we should be ready for the truth whatever it may be. At the same time our point for the moment is Elisha, the truth standing in relation to Elisha. There is wisdom seen in him that we may well understand and imitate in any matters of this kind that might come up.
WWM Would you say that one of the great points in these first seven verses is the matter of the Holy Spirit and how much He is becoming valued amongst us? The woman had the oil evidently, but the way she said she had nothing but a pot of oil would seem as if it did not amount to very much in her mind.
JT It amounted to a great deal more than she understood, as the event shows. So that what you say is quite right; because the pot of oil has to do with the Spirit, and that is the point that God has raised amongst us recently.
WWM We would all have to admit, possibly, that we have not regarded the Spirit as we should, and that is what this woman seems to teach us.
WL Would you say too that the woman got help because she had confidence in the man of God?
JT That is right; she had confidence, which is a great matter, and God had put the ability in the man of God to help her. Therefore she did right in applying to him; she says to him, “Thy servant my husband is dead”, and so on. She did right in appealing to him and he acted wisely in what he told her to do. That is a great matter for us because we have the spirit of wisdom and we should be prepared to use it when difficult cases arise.
TS She was prepared to be instructed.
JT Yes, and she was subject. When brethren are in difficulty they should be ready to listen to [p. 268] instruction. We have the spirit of wisdom among us, and we can give them instruction. This woman was linked with the sons of the prophets, that is to say with the servants of God whom God was using at that time in the service, so she deserved attention and Elisha gave her the attention she needed, and the whole matter was settled. We have the Spirit of God with us and if anything of this kind arises God would help us by His Spirit to settle matters. As we said before, eldership is included in all this; and even if we have no elders we have the spirit of wisdom amongst us, and we can count on it. That applies to the assembly as being the vessel of light, the vessel in which the Spirit of God is. “Do ye not know that ye are the temple of God?” the apostle says; “and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?” (1 Corinthians 3:16) The temple of God is the place of light, and there is the settlement of everything in the presence of the Spirit.
Ques The prophet asked what she had “in the house”; what does that refer to?
JT The house refers to a system where there is rule. Her husband was dead so she ruled over things, and the prophet told her what to do. And that was, in principle, to use the Spirit; to lean on the Spirit of God and to use Him, as it were.
AL This woman said, “Thy servant my husband is dead, and thou knowest that thy servant feared Jehovah”. He was a man who feared God evidently and characteristically the Spirit of God was operating in his heart. She may have despised his will, but that is the legacy he left her.
JT Very good; he made his will, so to speak, a good simple way to put it. There was apparently plenty of room for the Spirit; and where that is so He would make known “what is the breadth and length and depth and height; and to know the love of the Christ which surpasses knowledge” (Ephesians 3:18,19).