MATTHEW'S GOSPEL IN VIEW OF THE ASSEMBLY (1)
MATTHEW’S GOSPEL IN VIEW OF THE ASSEMBLY (1)
Matthew 1:1,2; Matthew 1:16 - 25; Matthew 2:1 - 12
JT It is hoped to make certain special selections from this gospel, covering broadly the whole book up to chapter 26, so that there may be a clear view by the help of the Lord as to the gospel itself, especially the place the assembly has in it and how the Lord’s supper enters into it too. So that we need to give attention to what has been written and what has just been read, that as we proceed, the young may follow what is in mind and become instructed; because it is a time for the young; it is the learning time — hence these early verses. One thing that comes to mind is the fact that the kingship of Christ comes into evidence at once; the word is, “Book of the generation of Jesus Christ, Son of David, Son of Abraham”. That is, it is the King, “Son of David”, first, and then “Son of Abraham”. And so the prevalence of references to such matters as kingship and governorship will come into our minds in this book and we shall have to follow them to see why they should be there, especially the word ‘governor’; that is, that the idea of rule is predominating. So that the king is in mind at once, that is, David; not Abraham first, but David the king.
JS One able to give effect to the promises, would you say?
JT Just so, but to be authoritative too; one who can speak with authority.
JHP So that the angel refers even to Joseph as son of David.
JT [p. 2] Just so; I think we shall do well to pay attention to that. In New York recently we have had the subject of manhood and we came on to David as part of the subject of manhood. David and Samuel were taken together as they represent a peculiar quality in manhood, and especially as David himself is a type of the Lord Jesus, a peculiar type of the Lord Jesus. God said, “I have found David ... a man after my heart, who shall do all my will”, (Acts 13:22).
CHH It says in Psalm 2:6, “I have anointed my king upon Zion”.
JT Just so.
Ques Would you tell us why the book starts with “the generation of Jesus Christ”? Would you say this has new creation in view?
JT It is the generation of Jesus Christ, and then as we said before, “Son of David, Son of Abraham”. That is to say, the idea of generation has to be noted to start with, so that it begins with Christ Himself. The word ‘generation’ begins in the Old Testament in the second chapter of Genesis and it runs along to about twelve references. Now it appears here again, and it is Christ that is in mind; it is the generation of Jesus Christ.
RP Would it be right at this point to speak of Him as “the root and offspring of David”? (Revelation 22:16).
JT Quite so, the root is His deity, and the offspring is His manhood. The bright and morning star is the illuminating thought that runs throughout, the whole universe is illuminated with it, “the bright and morning star”.
RWS Along with the authority there is thought of severity, is there not, which would eliminate from our minds any thought of democracy in the assembly?
JT That is a good word. The historical reference to all men being created equal is a fallacy; it is not true. They are not created equal at all. Therefore [p. 3] we ought to begin with that and dismiss from our minds the idea of democracy. That is not the leading thought at all, it is a question of manhood.
FJF In the feudal system which governed England for a long time the king was supreme; he was the head of the system, and he was supreme.
JT Well, the supremacy of a king in England is not very much; but when we are told to be subject “to the king as supreme”, who is that (1 Peter 2:13)? Peter is referring to someone that represents God in authority.
ANW Matthew speaks of the Lord’s face on the mount, shining as the sun; that seems to be special to Him. It is supremacy.
CFE You are stressing the thought of kingship in this chapter. Are we to come under the authority of this King?
JT Surely; Matthew has that in mind, the authority that enters into the truth of the assembly; we must have authority to work out the truth of the assembly.
VCL Does kingship coming in so early in the book help us to have right assembly thoughts as seeing the pre-eminence of Christ?
JT I think the assembly is to support the idea set out in the Lord Jesus. The assembly is a feminine idea, but it is to support the masculine, the divine thought in manhood. The divine thought in Scripture is the masculine, and the assembly is the counterpart of it; divine thoughts could not work out without the idea of the feminine.
Rem So when Joseph is introduced the generations are immediately brought in: “These are the generations of Jacob. Joseph ...” (Genesis 37:2), linking the generations very prominently with Joseph.
JT Because Joseph was so personally prominent that he took precedence really of his predecessors. The generations of Jacob begin with Joseph, a [p. 4] remarkable thing. Of course the other sons of Jacob were born earlier, most of them, but the generations of Jacob in the mind of the Spirit begin with Joseph, showing that God has His own right which He asserts in certain persons. He wants to make Joseph a leader in His thoughts in the Scripture, so that He speaks of Joseph and passes by the others.
RWS What you have just said is, I think, a very important remark as to the masculine side being seen in Christ and the feminine side in the assembly. Would you say that is the divine thought?
JT Quite so.
FJF Is that why it says that “Upon thy right hand doth stand the queen in gold of Ophir”, in Psalm 45:9? Does that complete the thought?
JT It is what runs through the Old Testament as to femininity, as to queenship. Nehemiah says of the king that the queen was beside him and the book of Esther is full of the thought of the queen. Vashti is set aside to make way for Esther, that is, God’s mind must come in, and that is the assembly. God has His own way of making way for things, and that removes mine; He has no hesitation in setting aside persons if they stand in His way.
JHT Is the assembly ever in the view of this earth as queen, in the millennium for instance?
JT I suppose she is; at His right hand, it says in Psalm 45, “doth stand the queen in gold of Ophir”.
ANW When Pharaoh gave Joseph the name of Zaphnath-paaneah the record is that at the same time he “gave him as wife Asnath the daughter of Potipherah the priest in On”, (Genesis 41:45).
JT There is much more made of Asnath than I used to think myself, and I believe many here if they will look into the facts will find that Asnath is much more really in the word and the mind of God than might [p. 5] be thought.
CHH In Nehemiah matters of administration seem to be more favourable when the queen is sitting by the king.
JT Quite so, “the queen also sitting by him” (Nehemiah 2:6); that is, she confirmed the whole position. She did not say anything though, but she was there.
JHP So the dear sisters are not left out in this chapter.
JT That is the idea, and that is what God has helped us in, that we must bring them in in these meetings.
JHP I was thinking of the three that are mentioned here, and then the fourth, although she only comes in in the name of her husband; but I wondered if the three would set forth suggestions of the assembly as supporting Christ?
JT And some of them are very questionable characters, outwardly, as you know, but we can take them as they stand. Why should they be mentioned as they are? For instance, it says “Thamar”, and Thamar would be a questionable character. Then “Rachab”, and “her that had been the wife of Urias”. Will you quote them all, Mr. P.?
JHP There is Thamar in verse three, and then Rachab and Ruth in verse five; and the fourth is not even given a name, it just says, “David begat Solomon, of her that had been the wife of Urias”.
JT She is distinguished in that she had such a husband, that is the idea. These women have a remarkable place in this genealogy, and why is it that God is disregarding human thoughts and setting them aside to bring in His own thoughts? This genealogy we might say is full of that sort of thing, that is to say, it is full of the rights of God where human rights or feelings or pretensions have to disappear. God will set them aside without question, and we may have to face all of this. We are dealing [p. 6] with Matthew because the assembly is in Matthew; the assembly is the great thought in Matthew.
JHP So would the questionableness that you refer to correspond with the reproach in which the assembly now is, in which we are in measure today?
JT Right here today in this great capital of the United States. How many of us are there here? There are very few, but what are we to God? What is the divine portion? What is there in the presidency as compared to the rights of God amongst us here today? That is the thing to get at.
AR When you use the word ‘assembly’, have you in mind what is feminine all the time?
JT Pretty much. Of course you might have unconverted people feminine, but we are thinking of what is of God, what God approves.
JHT In what aspect does the assembly really come in in Matthew? The Lord brings it in when Peter makes his confession, and He says, “On this rock I will build my assembly”, (Matthew 16:18). What aspect of the assembly would that be? It is not the bridal thought there, is it?
JT Sometimes the neuter takes the place of the feminine, for instance, “hades’ gates shall not prevail against it”. We have not ‘she’ or ‘her’ there, but “it”. The ‘it’ is the assembly, but generally speaking the assembly is feminine.
ANW So the ‘my’ in “my assembly”, might very well allow the Lord to view it femininely.
JT Just so, very good.
RWS Authority could hardly be placed in a more attractive way than in the assembly being subjected to the Christ, could it? Does that not help us to be subject as we see the supreme place that Christ has as King?
JT Just so. So with wives being subject “to their own husbands” (Ephesians 5:24), the word ‘own’ is striking,
“their own husbands” gives full place to the husband, the masculine.
Ques Would you say the fact that God’s will goes through would indicate the seriousness of our standing in the way? You were saying that God has His own mind and He sets persons aside if they stand in the way. How serious it would be to stand in the way! Adonijah presumed to stand in the way, did he not?
JT Yes, quite so; and how we need wisdom in regard of all these matters! Nathan the prophet intervened and took matters up, and God was so fully with him that he settled the whole matter as to Solomon. Adonijah said, “I will be king” (1 Kings 1:5), but Nathan intervened and went to Bathsheba and gave her good counsel. She was not so wise as she might have been. She is mentioned here in this chapter in Matthew but Nathan had to put her right; he got her to go to the king and put the right man before him; and the whole point here would be that we should proceed as to the right Man, that the right Man may come in. Bathsheba was a good sort of person in a certain sense but she was mistaken, and foolish too. She was not a reliable person, but at the same time she is brought in here, and for a good reason undoubtedly, because she had to do with Solomon. And she was the wife of Urias, she had to do with that man, and he was a great warrior on Jehovah’s side. But we get weakness even with women like Bathsheba, a peculiar kind of weakness. We have to be on our guard about such weakness, we want the peculiar qualities that are according to God, the qualities of manhood — because the word ‘man’ covers woman as well as man. We want the right quality, the ability to stand for the right. Eve failed in that, because she listened to Satan; and so we may have the sisters failing seriously if they are not retaining the quality of manhood as [p. 8] God has endowed it and put it forward for us. I thought these readings would bring out that whether man or woman, we should be sure to discriminate properly as to what belongs to God, as to the rights of God.
WWM So it says in regard of Samuel, that he mourned over Saul; but God said to him, “Fill thy horn with oil, and go, I will send thee to Jesse the Bethlehemite; for I have provided me a king among his sons” (1 Samuel 16:1). I have provided a king. That was what God had in mind, was it not?
JT Samuel, great man though he was, failed in regard to Eliab. I mean to say whether we are sisters or brothers, we are not always right in discriminating in favour of the rights of God; because it is a prime thought, this matter of the rights of God; whenever He wants to assert them others have to give way.
EAL Would you say it is a great lesson that the subjective element must take on the truth through the prophetic element? That is, Nathan was used to adjust Bathsheba so that Solomon had his right place.
JT Nathan is a saving element throughout that section. Even David himself was a failure. Everything hinged on Nathan.
EAL So that is all to stress how important the prophetic line should be to us.
FNW Does God assert His rights in Isaiah 7 when He speaks of Immanuel, and is there some subjective response to that in the saints in chapter 9 where it is said, “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given”? The first thing mentioned about that Person is that the government is upon His shoulder.
JT And so it is important to see in our chapter that it is said of the Lord, “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel”, that is, “God with us”; there is the point, God with us. And then it goes on to say, “But Joseph, having awoke up from his sleep, did as the angel of the Lord had enjoined him”. Joseph here is thoroughly subject. So you get one after another throughout this book in whom God is asserting His rights, and they have to give way. But then there are those on the other hand who are already subject, and they are filling out the divine mind. So what has been alluded to in Isaiah is here in this chapter before us.
FNW And do you not think that the greatness of Christ is made way for in the assembly as the rights of God are recognised? I was thinking of what is said of Christ in Isaiah 9, following the statement that the government shall be on His shoulder, “and his name is called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace”.
AJEW Does this chapter show how God can hide His choicest thoughts and operations from men publicly? I was thinking that this genealogy runs right through to completion in spite of much history in the intervening time. And then Herod seeking to find out more of this matter is defeated, is he not? Herod is not able to secure his end through these magi.
JT Quite so. He dies; that is, he is taken out of the way, as the Herod in Acts 12 was, who was eaten of worms. I mean that God does assert His rights in that way and takes people out of the way in judgment.
RWS Would “another way” in verse 12 of chapter 2 indicate the spiritual side which does conceal these matters from the public eye? It says, “They departed into their own country another way”.
JT It was not the way the enemy would have them go, they went another way of their own choice. It was the right way, just as Rahab sent back the [p. 10] spies another way. And that is the idea, and it defeats the devil.
EEH How is it that the announcement of kingship comes through the magi?
JT That is another point that we cannot pass by because it is a leading point in the second chapter. They were gentiles but they were looking for the king that was born to the Jews. It says, “Now Jesus having been born in Bethlehem of Judaea, in the days of Herod the king, behold magi from the east arrived at Jerusalem, saying, Where is the king of the Jews that has been born?”. It is important that the magi say that, and the star is working with them; they are apparently astronomers, and they are the kind of people that God takes up, to carry out His will. And so the star is working with them.
FJF Would you connect that at all with Psalm 19:1, “The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork”?
JT Quite so.
RWS Are these features which are early in the book to help us in the subject matter of the book, and in the understanding of the thought of authority in the assembly, and of wisdom as represented by the magi, wisdom in the assembly?
JT Just so; the whole passage deserves a great place because these men come out from the gentiles. You might say it is the sovereign action of God to bring these men in. It says, “Now Jesus having been born in Bethlehem of Judaea, in the days of Herod the king, behold magi from the east arrived at Jerusalem” — they are from the east, they are not Jews, they are gentiles — “saying, Where is the king of the Jews?” That is to say it is a question of the divine rights in Israel, and the King is there, and they are looking for Him. God is working with them. So it says, “Where is the king of the Jews that has been born? for we have seen his star in the east, and have come to do him homage”. It is called His star, the magi call it His star; but who are these magi? who are they? Apparently they are men who are engaged with the stars, and why should not God use men of that type, even if they are not Jews, if they bring in Christ? Even if that is their profession, why should not God use them to work out His thoughts? All that is Matthew’s presentation, the rights of God in bringing out His thoughts whatever men may think.
VCL Does it not raise a question with us? These magi saw something and it raised a spirit of inquiry, while Herod had only curiosity. Would that not be a challenge as to what we have seen of what God is doing, and whether we are here on those lines?
JT Quite so; but it was not only curiosity with Herod, it was devilish opposition to Christ. It was not a curious thing merely; it was wickedness, because he had murder in his heart. These are Matthew features, but God is going to dispose of this man; he is in His way and God will dispose of him; he will die, which he did. But then he put children to death too, showing how far man’s will will go against God.
BW Is it not interesting that after they had come to the king, and then had seen the little child, they were divinely instructed? It speaks in the footnote to verse 12 of an answer received after consultation. They were divinely instructed.
JT Just so, they were divinely instructed not to return to Herod, not to do it. That is to say, God was against Herod.
Rem As to their being divinely instructed, the footnote says it is ‘an answer after consultation’. They were looking for an answer in regard to this matter. Often when we pray we do not look for an [p. 12] answer.
JT It is important to see all these things mentioned, and how God comes down to these facts. There is occasion with these magi for consultation, for taking wise counsel about a matter like this. And how often it comes up amongst the brethren, the need for wise counsel and for waiting about things to see how they should work out! And they will work out if we wait on God about them.
JF Is the acknowledgment by the magi of the king of the Jews what causes the wickedness to rise in Herod’s heart? I was thinking of these magi acknowledging openly that there was a king of the Jews there. Is that the reason for the open wickedness in the heart of Herod in the attempt to destroy?
JT It may be, but the wickedness was in the heart of Herod anyway. The Herods were all wicked, every one of them. I mean to say they are a class of people that are characteristically wicked; the devil has them in his hands, and God takes account of them thus. Now Russia is in the devil’s hands at the present time. It is a peculiar thing that God has allowed all this to come up in the political world; it is the devil’s work, and Russia is in a way representing a class of humanity that is openly against the rights of God.
CHH We have been speaking about the consultation that took place with the wise men, and there was what took place between Abigail and her young man. What comes to light after that is the wickedness of Nabal so that, like Herod, he is removed out of the way and the road is made clear for David.
JT Abigail, of course, is a type of the assembly, and the young man with whom she was consulting gave good advice. That is, we can count on persons like that in the assembly, persons of good judgment.
AR Russia is not really against Rome, is she? She is against the assembly.
[p. 13] JT She is against Rome too because it suits her. She is characteristic of what at the moment is against God. Not that we are going into politics, only that the peculiar character of communism is over the world; it is behind things in the world, and the devil has got hold of it. That is a remarkable thing, that no matter what you see in the public information of the day, the devil has got hold of that system.
ANW That would be where the gates of hades are acting; the gates of hades are behind all of that.
Ques Is that why we have had so much counsel in the ministry as to what to say before the tribunals and all that kind of thing? Is that where wisdom works out so that we do not damage the Lord in what we say?
JT Quite so. Wisdom is seen with Abigail in the young man that she used; wisdom was working there. And wisdom was working with Nathan too in connection with Bathsheba. So that there is wisdom available and we have to count on God for wisdom against certain elements in this world.
LW Do the magi display wisdom here in not opposing Herod? They go as they are sent, but they are open to divine instruction so that they do not return to Herod.
JT Quite so, they disregard Herod. He expected them to act for him, but they wisely acted for the Lord; they acted for what was right. They returned the other way, they did not take Herod’s way.
FJF Would not the instruction now be by the Spirit, the divine instruction as to what to do, we having the Spirit with us? We do not need dreams now, do we?
JT It is wonderful what the brethren can get from the Spirit. Just about two years ago a brother in England wrote to me and said, ‘What I am impressed with in the way the Spirit is coming before us now is that you can commune with Him’. It [p. 14] touched me very much and it has affected me ever since. The Spirit of God is here on our account, and is always near; Scripture says, “The Lord is near”, (Philippians 4:5); and in truth the word shows that the Spirit is always near to help us.
RP Would you say a word as to the part the Holy Spirit has in this matter, in the first chapter especially? It says in verse 18, “She was found to be with child of the Holy Spirit”; and lower down it says, “For that which is begotten in her is of the Holy Spirit”.
JT It is the Spirit Himself acting; it is the action of the Spirit. It is a wonderful thing that the Spirit of God has come in in a special way in our time. I do not know whether they had the light of it in the time of the revival; I do not think they had; in fact I am sure they had not. But God has given it to us, and it is a question now of what use we are making of it. And the Spirit is here Himself in connection with the birth of Christ, in the conception of the Lord Jesus Christ. So it is said, “Before they came together, she was found to be with child of the Holy Spirit”, it was His own action. And then again in verse 20, “For that which is begotten in her is of the Holy Spirit”. It is the Spirit’s own action, and that is the present great fact that has come in for us, this immediate action of the Spirit, and it is helping us in matters.
AR And so it says that He hinders; there is not only “that which” hinders, but “he who” hinders; it is His own action, is it not, which bears on what we are saying about governments?
JT Yes, quite so. “There is he who restrains now until he be gone” (2 Thessalonians 2:7). That is what we are counting on, that there is something to keep back that awful thing, the apostasy, that we have already alluded to — “There is he who restrains now until he be gone, and then the lawless one shall be revealed, whom the [p. 15] Lord Jesus shall consume with the breath of his mouth, and shall annul by the appearing of his coming” (2 Thessalonians 2:7, 8). So the Lord is going to act for us presently in all these wonderful things.
VCL Is not the Spirit of God helping the assembly peculiarly now in keeping the right Man before us?
JT That is what He is here for, He is sent from heaven. The Lord Jesus Himself said that He would send another Comforter, and He is here; He will be with us for ever. He is here now, and He is here to look after matters, assembly matters, and we can count on Him.
VCL There is a system which says, “I sit a queen, and I am not a widow” (Revelation 18:7), and is not that the system which has publicly denied the Spirit any place?
JT The apostasy is in that system.
GGB Different names are given to the Lord, and is it not remarkable that here His name is given as Emmanuel, God with us? I was wondering whether that is in view of the Spirit’s dwelling with us today.
JT Just so. How wonderful it is to wake up, it may be at midnight, and something happens, and you feel that the whole domain around you is moving in the right direction; the Spirit of God is there! Why do we not look for that more? The Spirit of God is likely to come in at any time with any one of us.
GH I would like to ask for a little help about this use of pronouns. In Ephesians 5:25 it says, “Christ also loved the assembly, and has delivered himself up for it”; and in Romans 8:16 it says, “The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are children of God”. Why does Paul put it that way — ‘itself’ and ‘it’?
JT ‘It’ is the neuter; sometimes the Spirit of God is spoken of as ‘Him’ or ‘He’, but sometimes ‘It’ is used. That is quite right, it is just a question of grammar; but the mind of God is in it too. God is entitled to use the neuter when He wants to.
RWS So with “the holy thing”. In Luke 1:35, that is the same idea, is it not?
JT Yes, “the holy thing also which shall be born”, that is the neuter thought too. God is entitled to use these things.
Ques You were speaking about waking up at night and thinking that the whole domain around you is moving in the right direction. Is that what John experienced in the first of Revelation as being in the Spirit on the Lord’s day?
JT Quite so; what a marvellous thing it was! “I became in the Spirit on the Lord’s day”, he says, “and I heard behind me a great voice”, and he speaks of the voice as something that he might see! One of the most marvellous things in the book of Revelation is what John describes at that time.
Ques So it is not only on the Lord’s day that we can be in the Spirit, is it? I mean that we can be so at many other times; is that not what you are trying to stress, that we ought to be more constantly in the Spirit?
JT Quite so; I find, as I mentioned earlier, that you can commune with the Holy Spirit, and you can have Him at any time. It has come home to me ever since. Not that the brother said all that, but I am saying it; he meant that the Spirit of God is ready to be communed with. It is wonderful that He might be with us at any time. He is here, He has come down from heaven, sent from heaven, we are told. The Lord Jesus is not said to be sent from heaven, but the Spirit is said to be so sent. He is here in obedience to carry out the divine will in the [p. 17] assembly.
AR So that when we are testifying before these men in the tribunals we can count on His personal support as near us, can we not?
JT Quite so. How often it happens too!
RWS And alone, in communion alone, it is a two-way matter, is it not? That is communion, that He will say something to us and we speak to Him.
JT Quite so; in fact the word is, “the communion of the Holy Spirit”, and that is a two-way matter; just so.
BW Is it not interesting that this consultation, this two-way matter, follows upon the worship? That is, the magi opened their treasures; they offered to Him gifts. I was thinking of how this ministry of the Spirit has followed upon much ministry pertaining to the Lord’s supper.
JT That is good, and that expression, ‘a two-way matter’, is good, too.
Rem It says of David that he communed with Abigail with regard to their marriage.
FJF So the Holy Spirit has power over what is physical, has He not? I was thinking of what it says, that “By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens”, (Job 26:13).
JT Quite so, it is a remarkable thing.
JHP I was thinking of what Peter said at Pentecost: “This is that which was spoken through the prophet Joel”; and then he goes on, “I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your elders shall dream with dreams”, (Acts 2:16,17). I was wondering if in any way the present conditions and the liberty into which we are brought would correspond with that Scripture?
JT Just so; remarkable things were opening up at the advent of the Spirit of God from heaven. And I was going to say something about this matter of [p. 18] the heavens being opened up to us. The Scripture says that God has made the worlds by the Lord Jesus, “By whom also he made the worlds”, (Hebrews 1:2). Now who can tell us how many there are? Wonderful to think of such great things, the worlds, and that God has made them by Christ! and I was thinking of Paul being caught up to the third heaven, and I am only speaking now of what we are all entitled to enter into and enjoy in our quiet moments, what may happen and how we are to understand things that are spoken of in the Scriptures that are in themselves beyond our understanding. But still they are there and therefore Paul says, “I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago ... caught up to the third heaven” (2 Corinthians 12:3). He uses the word ‘caught’. Well, where is the third heaven and what did he see? He said, ‘I heard things spoken that are not given to men to utter, not lawful for men to utter’. But they are there, unspeakable things. And so the apostle says the second time, ‘I was caught up’; but he says, he was caught up into — into Paradise; not now ‘to’ the third heaven, but ‘into’ Paradise. Well, I have to concentrate on this and see what I can make out of it. What are the third heavens? Why should the numeral be there? And then why should Paradise be there? And then I am caught into it. What do I know about that? Really, dear brethren, we are caught into a realm that is wonderful, within our own reach even today, where we are now; these things are within our reach. They are wonderful things and we are in touch with heaven; but then the heaven itself is so beyond anything that one can put into words! But at the same time the area is to be traversed, to be traversed spiritually. But then there is the sphere where God is, where God dwells; He dwells in unapproachable light. We have to realise that. So that we come to a [p. 19] point where we should be sober and solemnised and become holy and find out these things for ourselves. The Holy Spirit is here; He is not come and gone; He is here to stay for the moment, to open up these things to us, to aid us, so that we might enjoy them and understand them.
Ques Do you think that as we are found perhaps more frequently in the communion of the Holy Spirit we might come into the understanding of some of these things which Paul saw?
JT Quite so.
TNW But God has revealed them to us by His Spirit.
JT That is right, God has done it.
CHH Matthew is the only one of the gospels that says the heavens were opened to Jesus. Then in Revelation 4 the door is seen opened in heaven and the voice is heard to say, “Come up here”, and then John became in the Spirit. I was thinking of the peculiar character of Matthew in bringing heaven in touch with us.
JT That is right.