THE MINISTRY OF ELISHA IN ITS PRACTICAL VALUE (2)
[p. 240] THE MINISTRY OF ELISHA IN ITS PRACTICAL VALUE (2)
2 Kings 3:9 - 27; 2 Kings 4:1 - 7
JT The book of Kings affords remarkable material for ministry, that the saints might be instructed at a time like this when we are gathered together for the express purpose of learning; not simply to meet one another, but for learning and acquiring wisdom. The word for us is, “Think of what I say, for the Lord will give thee understanding in all things” (2 Timothy 2:7); that is to say that we are to get instruction and understanding from the Lord in all things. So it is thought that under God these two prophets afford this material, first Elijah, and then Elisha; the latter prophet, as we said before, affording instruction as to grace, suggesting that we should get on well with one another and live in the element of grace, not simply of love but of grace, having the ability to show grace, to be patient and to consider for one another. It will be seen how prominently Elisha is brought into these scriptures read, and of course it is in mind to comment on the truth presented to us through him. We do not need to consult all that is current in the world, but to confine ourselves to the facts of Scripture, facts which build us up in our most holy faith.
AR May I ask a question as to the scripture referred to this morning in relation to the healing of the waters, 2 Kings 2:20 - 22?
JT You have in mind I suppose the idea of the new cruse, “Bring me a new cruse, and put salt in it”. I suppose the idea is a certain freshness with us; we are not wearied or occupied with mere historic things, matters that are of little importance to the christian, but we are new and fresh. It is as if we come down from heaven. We belong to heaven, as it says in Ephesians, we are raised up together, and made to “sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus”. So we regard each other in this light, as being in a sense new. Therefore we have the new man, a term which is often commented on but is not noticed enough by us: “the new man ... created in truthful righteousness and holiness”.
SMcC The element of grace as we are taking account of it in Elisha brings into operation what there is among the saints; it not only gives the solution, but brings into operation and activity whatever there may be among the saints. So Elisha says, “Bring me a new cruse”. I thought that in contrast to all that is around us, where much in the clerical system is built up on one man, in the assembly everything is made of what is there, what there is among the saints.
JT And each one has a consciousness that he is of some importance in the mind of heaven; that is to be taken account of, so that there is a dignity and greatness amongst us in that sense. Although of course we are not to think this of ourselves in any natural way, but to think of what we are as raised up together to sit down together in the heavenlies. The gospel of John tells us about the new birth — that we are born anew — which is the beginning of things; but there is much more to add to that. We are to be raised up together and to be [p. 241] made to sit down together in the heavenlies; so that, as it were, we come down to earth again to do our duty here and to serve God here according to His will, according to the authority and dignity that He has put upon us. We are not to be occupied unduly with ourselves, but still we have a dignity in the fact that we are born again and the Spirit of God indwells us. Therefore we are brought into the assembly, the greatest family in the whole universe; we are brought into that and have the power to enter heaven in a spiritual sense, and then to come down again; and [p. 242] then finally to go up again. We have that in Scripture, the idea of going up again, so that we go up finally. But we are down here now, and left down here to represent the heavenly-mindedness that belongs to the assembly.
AB According to Ephesians 2:6,7, this elevation is in view of the present, that is to say it is going on now; we are being constituted fit to come out and convey the mind of God now according to His purpose.
RWS In Elisha’s time there are things such as famine, war and death. Does that afford occasion for praying, and for heavenly-mindedness to come out?
JT Just so. Then do you in your mind connect what you have said now with what was remarked previously as to the new man? Do you want us to understand that you connect it with what we have already had, so as to make it a one-piece matter?
RWS Yes, I had that in mind; so that the mixed conditions in which we are, where these adverse things are happening, are to bring out the features of the new man, to bring out the heavenly-mindedness of the assembly.
JWF Would the pot of oil in chapter 4, along with the new cruse referring to what there is amongst the saints, as previously remarked, represent the two elements that are needful?
JT The new cruse would represent something that is new, it is a vessel of a certain kind. The question therefore is what kind of vessel is suggested. I suppose all these ideas of vessels must have in mind the persons who form the assembly; what there is in the sense of newness, and then of course what the vessel can be used for, what it is suitable for.
JWF The vessel in chapter 4 is evidently filled with oil; it speaks of “a pot of oil”.
[p. 243] JT Just so; we had better quote the scripture to help the mind. Each one of us has a mind and our minds need to be aided as much as possible that we may get the facts correctly. Verse 20 of chapter 2 speaks not only of the vessel itself, but of what is in it. The saints must be in mind in the idea of salt, because, we have the word in the New Testament, “Have salt in yourselves” (Mark 9:50); and that is the idea of the cruse, it has salt in it. It is a preservative idea.
AR It is a question of healing power, is it not? It has virtue, for it says the waters were healed: “I have healed these waters”. As to matters of local difficulty we should not be left in doubt; they can always be solved by having healing power in our localities.
JT “Have salt in yourselves”. It is not what God does for you, not what the brethren may do for you, and not what the ministry may do for you; but what you have in yourself. You have the ability in yourself. “Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another”.
WM “Ye are the salt of the earth” (Matthew 5:13), is what the Lord said when speaking to His own.
JT The Lord has constituted us that; that is, divine operations have effected that. It is what you are in that passage — that is another matter; but then we are to have it as well.
SMcC At Chicago you greatly helped us on the value of oral ministry, spoken ministry. That seems to be stressed in chapter 2:22: “according to the saying of Elisha which he spoke”. It is not the writing but the saying.
JT Showing that the Spirit of God would say that His servant is honoured; his word is coming true. He has been honoured in that sense. When you think of a brother you might say of him that he serves well, he says good things: but the question [p. 244] is whether they come true; whether they are real and whether the Spirit of God is in them.
SMcC Is it not important too that in Elisha’s service as it comes out here the unity of the ministry appears? Chapter 3:11 shows the unity of the ministry.
JT Quite so; the brother in question has acquired a reputation. Now he is not only a ploughman, he has acquired a reputation. So that one says, “Here is Elisha ... who poured water on the hands of Elijah”; and then the king of Israel says, “The word of Jehovah is with him”. That is the reputation he has got. So you see the importance of it that when their names are mentioned brethren should have reputations, so that it can be said, He has done so and so. And when the king of Israel says, “The word of Jehovah is with him”, that is evidently not only Elisha’s own composition, but the word of Jehovah Himself. He has that reputation.
EAL Elijah said to Elisha, “Ask what I shall do for thee”. Would that stress the present value of the prophet?
JT Quite so. Elijah is conscious himself that he can do something for the people; he is conscious of it because he says to Elisha, “Ask what I shall do for thee”. That is to say there are persons amongst us today who can do something, and we ought to know it.
FKC As to your remark about what a brother says coming to pass, it says of Agabus in Acts 11:28 that he “signified by the Spirit” what was to come to pass; and then he speaks again in Acts 21:11, regarding Paul, and says, “Thus saith the Holy Spirit”. He binds his own hands and feet, he enacts the thing.
JT Very good; he enacts the thing; he sets it out in principle before the eyes of others. It is a question of what power there is actually amongst us,
[p. 245] and that it might be known. We should become conversant with these facts and occurrences that are being mentioned, and with the people involved and their names, and see that God is with them.
HB In 2 Corinthians 1 Paul speaks about the preaching of the Son of God “by me and Silvanus and Timotheus”; and then it says that “in him is the yea”. Is there not a unity in the ministry by known persons? And then the positiveness seen in the thought of “in him is the yea”.
JT “In him is the yea, and in him the amen, for glory to God by us”. Not glory to God by Christ, but by us. It is what the saints can do, what God is using the saints for. The point would be therefore that we are all to be ready to do things, to do profitable things; and this is to be known, that we may acquire a reputation for clothing and enriching the saints. God would have them enriched, as it says, “this thy so great a people” (1 Kings 3:9); not that we are assuming to be great, but the word is “thy so great a people”. God has made us great, if we are great at all.
SMcC And is this the kind of thing that is needed to meet unholy combinations such as are now before us in the portion read? We have the king of Israel, the king of Judah, and the king of Edom; and the one that meets it is this effective person that you refer to.
JT Just so. Yet God is going to bless this combination, in spite of its being a combination. God is going to use it. We read, “there was no water for the army” — there was a real need — “and for the cattle that followed them. And the king of Israel said, Alas! that Jehovah has called these three kings together, to give them into the hand of Moab! And Jehoshaphat said, Is there not here a prophet of Jehovah that we may inquire of Jehovah by him? And one of the king of Israel’s servants [p. 246] answered and said, Here is Elisha the son of Shaphat, who poured water on the hands of Elijah. And Jehoshaphat said, The word of Jehovah is with him. And the king of Israel and Jehoshaphat and the king of Edom went down to him”. Elisha has become known, and it is profitable if we can do anything good that it should be known. And so the word of Jehoshaphat is, “The word of Jehovah is with him”. The king of Judah is not in good company, although God is helping him; he is not in good company, for Elisha says to the king of Israel, I would not look toward you were it not that the king of Judah is with you. The king of Judah therefore is the saving element; that is another thing. All these details are so important, but then the point is whether we are seeking to gain the meaning of them for mutual profit? Elisha can discern where the king of Israel is and he is faithful as to him; but he is also discerning the king of Judah as to certain matters with him. We are to know each other, and to regard each other accordingly.
FKC Why does Elisha say what he does to the king of Israel? Is it because of his associations with Jezebel?
JT Well, there was a bad condition there and Jezebel is in it. The house of Ahab was corrupted.
FKC The principle of Roman Catholicism is really there in Jezebel the wicked woman.
JT Just so.
RWS As to the word in verse 14, “As Jehovah of hosts liveth, before whom I stand”, Elisha was thinking, not of the three kings, but of Jehovah of hosts. However great the hosts might be, Elisha was standing before Him.
JT Jehovah of hosts; that of course is a question of divine Persons, a subject that God has greatly enlarged on lately. Jehovah of hosts is a term mentioned constantly [p. 247] in the Scriptures.
RWS You spoke of the saving feature in the position. We are never in a position where there is not some saving feature if we stand in the presence of such a Person as Jehovah of hosts; “before whom I stand”, Elisha says.
JT So you see what the believer can count on in view of such circumstances as these; he can count on “Jehovah of hosts”. Who knows how many hosts there may be? We might say, There are so many in such and such a meeting; we are able to reckon the meeting, the size of it, and so forth; but when we come to Jehovah of hosts, how many are there in the hosts? It is marvellous! And then we can think that Jehovah of hosts is on our side, God is on our side; He has got hosts and we can count on them, too.
WWM Would you say a word on, “now fetch me a minstrel”?
JT I think that is in the state of the brethren; the idea of the minstrel is music, and it suggests the happy conditions that all these meetings should have. Elisha said he could only speak with the help of a minstrel, that is, a happy condition amongst the saints. The man has power to do things because of it.
WWM So there is an atmosphere created among the saints together whereby prophetic ministry can come out?
JT Just so, that is the idea. One can look around at the number of meetings in this country, and in others, and see what minstrelsy, what music there may be. So that we are going to get some improvement in our hymn book; that is to bring in hymns to the Spirit of God Himself. Hymns to the Father we have, but none to the Spirit; but we are going to have them; and that is the idea of the minstrel, happy conditions among the saints, so that we sit down together and before we do anything else [p. 248] we sing a hymn together. That is the minstrel. We never start before singing a hymn. What do you say to that?
WWM I fully go with that. I have illustrated it to my own mind in a family reading in the home, you want conditions so that the reading means something. It is not merely reading a few verses of Scripture, but we have a sense of what we are doing and the atmosphere is suitable for it. Is that right?
JT Just so, that is what I believe exactly. We have the minstrel. Therefore God is going to help us I believe to get hymns to the Spirit.
JHJr Why do we not sing before the care meeting?
JT I do not see why we should not. There is a good reason why we should, to bring in happy conditions. We very often need them before a care meeting.
JH I wondered whether the Lord would not help us in our care meetings to be happier together in the working out of things if we were liberated by bringing in this feature?
JT Well, I am going to propose it in New York when I go back; we have never had it there.
AH “Let them ... praise him in the session of the elders” (Psalm 107:32). Would that support a hymn in the care meeting? In 2 Chronicles 20:22 singing was the great feature of the day.
JT Very good. That is a passage I have often thought of, how the song led on to victory, the song of the Lord.
AB In the days of recovery in Nehemiah, there was a certain number of singing men and singing women; and later we have two choirs in relation to the wall of the city.
JT Excellent! We want all the good we can get out of the scriptures that are being quoted. That in Nehemiah is a very triumphant note. I was just [p. 249] contrasting in my mind what the world has, Washington or London, for instance — not that one would say a word against them — but what the world has and what the christian has, what we have in the sense of song, for instance. There is nothing to compare with what there is in the assembly; it is the vessel for all these things, the songs, and so forth, things that the world has not got.
HB It says in Psalm 68 that “The singers went before”; so that there is a lead given by the singers in matters.
JT Just so; read the passage, please.
HB “They have seen thy goings, O God ... The singers went before, the players on stringed instruments after, in the midst of maidens playing on tabrets” (Psalm 68:24,25).
JT “Thy goings”, note that.
Rem We used to sing in our care meetings in Tasmania, but we have had it said that it is not the time to sing as we have not the sisters present in care meetings.
JT The singing is quite in order as I said.
RWS Would it require certain hymns in the new book for the care meeting? We have one that speaks of ‘Every interest precious to thee, finding in our hearts a place’; (305:2) that might be suitable.
JT The question now is, seeing the Lord has brought it up in this way, whether the term ‘care meeting’ is found in Scripture. I do not think it is. We have based it on Acts 15, I think. Do you not think the word ‘assembly’ in verse 4 of that chapter indicates there might be sisters there? In verse 22 it says, “with the whole assembly”; that is the thing. The more I think of it and the way it is mentioned, the more we can conclude that there must have been sisters there. The whole assembly must include sisters.
RWS Verse 6 says, “the apostles and the elders were gathered together”; that would not include sisters.
JT No, it would not, but as you go on things become enlarged. We should read the whole chapter to get the full bearing of it, especially from verse 22. I would venture to suggest to the brethren that these facts indicate that sisters were present in that great gathering related in Acts 15. I fully believe that that is the fact. I believe the Scriptures would show that the Spirit of God was there, and the Spirit of God is mentioned as having part in the thing; so that the sisters must have had their part in it too, to bring out the whole thought.
JHJ We have been encouraged in this city to speak of certain matters with the sisters present, such as what scripture we should take up following the completion of a book, and other like matters; but what you are suggesting now is that perhaps we should consider the sisters more widely in this matter of care?
JT I would go with that very much, because the sisters should be brought into it; you cannot have the assembly really without them, not fully without them. Therefore they should be there, but there are certain restrictions as to them which we ought to recognise.
RWS Might not a condition arise when it might be well for a sister who has testimony to be at the care meeting and bring it forward?
JT Well, if there is an actual discipline meeting, the sisters must be there; and they are there before any action of discipline takes place. Does that answer your enquiry?
RWS Yes, but more than that, I was thinking that if a sister had knowledge of a certain matter that the brethren in care needed to know, there would be nothing improper in the sister coming to [p. 251] the meeting for care and telling the brothers what she knew, would there?
JT Quite so. Philip had four daughters who prophesied; they would surely have had a voice in any matter that would be current in their local meeting. They prophesied, they were godly women clearly.
JasP Does not the matter of the apostles and elders being together in verse 6 immediately merge into the thought of the whole assembly, there being no lapse of time between the brothers being together and all the saints?
JT Just so, and that is what has forcibly come before me today. I think we might well consider it and the Lord would help us, because there is a real weakness on that point I think.
SMcC I would like a little more help as to the difference in your mind between the deliberative side and the executive side. Are you speaking of the sisters in relation to the executive side only, or are you bringing them into the deliberative side too?
JT I do not think we should exclude them because if they have information why should not they give it? The Spirit of God is said to be there in verse 28 of this chapter we are dealing with, and why should they be excluded, either in what is deliberative or in what is executive?
SMcC We are on the lines of enquiry now, and something has come up that whets that enquiry. We have always understood as to the departments of this chapter that there is a deliberative side (verse 6), “the apostles and the elders”; and an administrative side, and that when it comes to the administrative side the sisters come into it as being of the assembly.
JT In Romans 16 the first mention is of a sister; there are thirty salutations and the first one saluted is a woman, Phoebe. I think it is significant [p. 252] that she is there. There are many other sisters mentioned in the same chapter.
SMcC Then on what ground up to now have the sisters been excluded from the meeting for care?
JT I just wonder myself. Of course I do not know the situation at the revival of the truth some hundred and twenty years ago; I was not there. But last year, as you know, it was suggested at Bristol that the sisters should be present at these special meetings, and we have fully accepted the truth of that in England and here.
SMcC I remember too that reference was made to Quemerford and the meetings that were held there years ago; the sisters were there right through, they did not have brothers’ meetings. The sisters were there together with the brothers.
JT That is true; I attended those meetings and I know that was true. I do not know why matters have taken their present course and why sisters have been so rigidly kept out of certain things. I do not know but I think perhaps we ought to revise things a little.
SMcC You could hardly think of a woman like Deborah as not helping the brethren in matters of judgment, could you?
JT Just so, Deborah would certainly have contributed.
AAT This year in London you referred to the fact that sisters have a great place in these meetings.
JT For a long time it has been in mind that there should be something in the way of adjustment regarding sisters being shut out under certain conditions.
FKC Is there not evidence that there were certain sisters with whom Mr. Darby consulted a good deal regarding things in the early days?
JT That is right; I know who they were too, and there are several here today who know who [p. 253] they were. There were several sisters who had a great influence, and were highly regarded by the brethren at that time.
EAL Yet they are to be silent in the assembly?
JT Just so, and we are not saying that they should speak, because they are set under a certain restriction. We have said that before, and we must keep it in mind.
EAL Two sisters in New York were asked at the assembly meeting if they would repent as turning from the world to the Lord and the brethren, and they said, No! That shows the importance of persons under discipline being at the assembly meetings where they can be appealed to and the Lord might move their hearts. There was a measure of criticism of the brethren in New York that this should have been allowed; but doubtless it was because the brethren did not understand what we are speaking of now.
ABP I wonder whether the fact of an epistle being written to the elect lady is intended by the Spirit of God to give dignity to the sisters in that way? I am referring to the second epistle of John.
JT “The elder to the elect lady and her children”; it is a remarkable thing that she is mentioned as she is.
GW How does the matter of Boaz taking ten men of the city at the gate enter into the care meeting? I wondered if the sisters were there?
JT Of course they are not mentioned because men are specially required under these circumstances; but you have to go by other scriptures, you have to compare spiritual with spiritual and to go by the general tenor of Scripture, whatever it might be.
CHH I was wondering why in verses 7 and 13 the word “brethren” means, according to the note, ‘Men, brethren’, as though not applying to sisters?
[p. 254] They may have been there, but Peter and James are speaking to the ‘Men, brethren’.
JT We have to consider the word ‘brethren’, and what it may mean under such conditions. It may mean sisters as well at times, because we are all brethren.
JH Would the fact that the sisters are not specifically mentioned either in the book of Ruth or in Acts 15 indicate that if they were there, it would be in a very unobtrusive and unofficial way?
JT You would not be sensible that they were there, but yet they might be there.
AH I was wondering if the principle can be seen in Acts 1, where it says, “These gave themselves ... to ... prayer, with several women”; and then speaks of “Peter, standing up in the midst of the brethren”. No doubt that included the women.
JT There they are! It shows that at the beginning they were there. It is the first assembly meeting that we have in the book of Acts. I am glad you mentioned that. “Several women”, we do not know how many, but they were there anyway. Mary the Lord’s mother was there.
TS In connection with the introduction of the Supper by the Lord, would it seem there were just the apostles there?
JT It would seem so. But of course you could not think of leaving women out when the assembly is in question. They must be there.
AH Could you help us further as regards Acts 1? I am thinking how Peter unfolds the matter to carry all, and then they move forward to fill the place which has been so violated by Judas, filling his place with another according to the Lord’s mind; bringing the Lord and the power of the Spirit in as casting lots. Both the deliberative and the executive side were being brought in would you say?
JT [p. 255] All that has been said calls to mind the word ‘man’, the first mention of man in Scripture, Genesis 1:26. It says there, “Let them have dominion”; the word ‘them’ is plural, it must include women.
AH In thinking over what has been said it comes to me that it embraces the full thought of manhood. As you said, “Let us make man” includes both man and woman; and in Acts 1 it is “with several women”. So that the matter to be carried forward needed both, they all had to be carried in the mind of Peter by what he said, and then they go forward together in relation to carrying the matter to a conclusion.
JT Just so; I think we may very well assume that, because the word ‘man’ involves woman: “Let them have dominion” includes the woman as well as the man.
AR Acts 1:15 says, “In those days Peter, ... said, ... Brethren”, and there is a footnote to that which says, ‘men, brethren’, yet we are told women were present. Apparently that must be the idea of correspondence to Genesis 1:26: “Let us make man”.
JT Just so, so that “let them have dominion” includes woman as well as man; the word Adam includes woman as well as man.
SMcC Is it your thought that inquiry should be made as to making room for the sisters in the care meeting?
JT Just so, inquiry before the Lord, because the Lord will not fail us in a difficulty, and a real difficulty has arisen. He would give us understanding in all things.
AAT You referred to Philip’s daughters; I was wondering where they prophesied. Would it be in the assembly or in somebody’s [p. 256] home?
JT We have to consider the other scripture that was quoted from 1 Corinthians 14, “Let your women be silent in the assemblies”.
AAT How can they be silent and yet prophesy?
JT The Lord will give us help as to all these matters, because we want the truth. The Lord will not fail us if we seek Him.
AP I think what you have been saying bearing on this particular matter of Acts 15 has been in our minds for some time — that we have nothing positive in Scripture to warrant brothers as such coming together for care meetings; but the positive features of this scripture would indicate that the assembly in some way or other should be involved at the care meeting. The dignity and spirituality of the care meeting would be added to by sisters being present.
JT So far as I can see now, the sisters must be admitted when the assembly is in question. The word ‘assembly’ includes them, it must include them.
RWS The assembly is a feminine vessel, which would be suggestive as to the sisters coming into everything.
JH In relation to Mr. T.’s enquiry as to prophecy, does 1 Corinthians 14 not indicate that the sisters would be there in a spirit of prophecy? For it says, “but if all prophesy”.
JT We might well read the passage, 1 Corinthians 14:23 - 25, “If therefore the whole assembly come together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and simple persons enter in, or unbelievers, will not they say ye are mad? But if all prophesy, and some unbeliever or simple person come in, he is convicted of all, he is judged of all; the secrets of his heart are manifested; and thus, falling upon his face, he will do homage to God, reporting that God is indeed amongst you”. That is clearly our assembly meeting, and I would say sisters were there; but it does not say that they were prophesying because it [p. 257] speaks about only two or three speaking. That is what governs us as to what we shall have tonight; it is limited to two or three.
JH I wondered if the words, “if all prophesy”, would indicate that all would be there in a spirit of prophecy?
JT The brothers would be there, and they would be free to speak, but there are limitations that govern them — they may speak, two or three.
JH Would it be right to connect this scripture in 1 Corinthians 14 with Acts 2, where it says, “They were all filled with the Holy Spirit”? This was following upon the fact that they were all together in one place; and then further on in that same chapter Peter says, “your sons and your daughters shall prophesy”. The sisters were there as well as the brothers.
JT Quite so; I think that is very important. Then there were the three thousand after Peter’s address; there must have been sisters there.
TNW Does it not emphasise what you have been bringing before us recently as to the necessity of all being together in one place? The absence of one affects the whole.
FKC The sisters were evidently all present at the beginning; at the meeting in 1 Corinthians 14 they would be there. The regulation that the apostle makes in 1 Timothy 2:12 is, “I do not suffer a woman to teach nor to exercise authority over man”. Are not these things to govern us? They must all be held in balance.
JH As to restrictions that are given as to sisters, the first one is in 1 Corinthians 14:34: “Let your women be silent in the assemblies”, and then in 1 Timothy 2:11,12, “Let a woman learn in quietness”. Is what you have referred to in 1 Corinthians 11 as to a woman praying and [p. 258] prophesying apart from the idea of teaching and learning such as these scriptures would convey?
JT 1 Corinthians 11:5 would indicate that women prophesied under certain conditions. There were many there. We do well to recognise them, and at the same time we also must recognise what is said here and in other passages. Is it comely for a woman to pray or prophesy with her head uncovered? It is a question of a covering. It is not a question of being a woman, but of the covering. We might touch on these same points again in the next reading.