READINGS IN MATTHEW'S GOSPEL (10)
READINGS IN MATTHEW’S GOSPEL (10)
JT We come here to authority vested in the assembly. We have had it vested in Peter in chapter 16, but now it is vested in the assembly. Again, we have here power vested in two or three gathered to the Lord’s name. Thus we have come to what has been enjoyed for many years in the assemblies as regards power; then another thing is that there is power vested not merely in two or three, but in “two of you” as it says, “If two of you shall agree on the earth concerning any matter ... it shall come to them from my Father who is in the heavens”. So that the chapter affords remarkable help, and thus we need not be driven to the wall in any circumstances. There is a way out for us in the number of the persons mentioned.
Ques Is the thought of authority in Matthew’s gospel first connected with the Lord? It speaks of Him having authority, and then in chapter 10 He gives authority to the apostles. Is this chapter authority in the assembly?
JT That is right. An authority that has been used much of late and blessed of God. That is, the whole assembly is in mind, even though there be twenty or ten or less sub-divisions. The whole assembly is in mind for the exercise of this authority. No one of the assembly, or two, or even all the brothers, have the authority committed to them; it is assembly authority, including the brothers and sisters.
Ques That would be vested in each local meeting?
JT Quite so. You mean local as distinct from sub-division? However few there may be, even if there are only two or three in the meeting.
[p. 267] Ques Would the two or three of necessity include a brother, or might it be two or three sisters?
JT Well, it might be two or three sisters. In Esthonia, for instance, there were only a few sisters and one brother, and the brother misbehaved and the sisters acted in discipline upon him and withdrew from him, and God owned it. So that as I was saying, we are never driven to the wall, so to speak. There is power amongst the brethren, even a few sisters, two or three, in fact “two of you”, it says. So that there is a great power vested in the assembly and in the two or three, even if it be only two or three, or two by themselves, of the assembly.
Ques Is that why the chapter opens with the reference to the little child?
JT Before that is said, the disciples wanted to know who was the greatest in the kingdom of the heavens; a very unbecoming remark or enquiry. They say “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of the heavens?” And the Lord answers that by calling a little child and He says, “Verily I say to you, Unless ye are converted and become as little children, ye will not at all enter into the kingdom of the heavens”. In the second verse it says that Jesus having called a little child to Him “set it in their midst”. That is to say, it is set up in their midst, not exactly as standing by Him, as called to Him, but He set it in their midst. The force of the words “in their midst” has a great place in this gospel.
WSS Is there a relationship between the little child in the beginning of this chapter and the thought of sonship at the end of the previous chapter, and are we to be in the conscious dignity and liberty of sonship, but serve in the spirit of little children?
JT Just so, because if we carry the thought into saintship, the saint has the Spirit, and that is the [p. 268] foundation of everything. The gift of the Spirit in the believer is power underlying all these things.
WSS I think the Lord Jesus is called “the little child” eight times in the beginning of the gospel.
JT Quite so. He is never called ‘a babe’ in Matthew; it is in Luke He is called ‘a babe’.
Rem Herod called Him “the child”, but eight times after that, in the second chapter, the Spirit calls Him “the little child”. “Take to thee the little child”. I was thinking of the affecting and attractive way in which the Lord Jesus is thus spoken of as “the little child”, wholly at the disposal of another.
JT But wholly under the care of another, too — His mother. “Take to thee the little child and his mother”. That is, the mother is supposed to be immediately in care of Him. But then as regards chapter 18, the position is that of a little child. It is literally a little child and then it develops into a saint, that is a believer. I mean to say there is elasticity in the divine way at times that is not to be overlooked, and that affords much latitude, in a certain sense, and rightly so. A person may thus act with a good conscience within the latitude implied. The Spirit of God Himself brings in latitude, affording latitude to the saints.
Ques Is it important that a little child is so available to be called and to be set up amongst the brethren?
JT The little child is callable, the Lord can call him. That is to say, he is supposed to be available to the Lord at His call, and if you develop that into a saint, it brings out the same thought, namely that you are subject to the Lord, according to what the Lord said of Himself, that He was that with the Father. “Lo, I come (in the roll of the book it is written of me) to do, O God, thy will”. That all [p. 269] develops into little children, first, little children literally, and then little children viewed morally as saints. They are viewed as little children, meaning that they are exposed to the devil but they are protected.
ADT Had the apostle Paul this feature in mind in sending Timotheus to Corinth? It says: “For this reason I have sent to you Timotheus, who is my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, who shall put you in mind of my ways as they are in Christ”, 1 Corinthians 4: 17.
JT That is, Timothy was an apostolic delegate; he is representative of Paul. Paul could send him as his delegate at any time, and he often did so too.
AB Would you say a little more in regard of the question of latitude, to which you were referring?
JT God is God, and He would have us to understand that man was made in the image of God, and we should regard ourselves in that light, as representative of God. He can thus use us at His pleasure, and, of course, what underlies that is subjection on the part of the saints. Even in the case of a little child literally the principle must be there because of his parents; the parents have control over him; he is always under orders; and so the sisters too are under orders.
Ques Does not the thought here run on to representation, for the Lord says: “Whosoever shall receive one such little child in my name, receives me”?
JT Exactly. Then, moreover, little children have angels. It is a very remarkable thing that angels are allocated to little children. But then that would also work up to the thought of little children morally. There is the protection of angels, for we are always under divine protection.
AH Does verse 4 suggest that inward power is required?
JT “[p. 270] Whoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child”, not any little child, but this little child, “he is the greatest in the kingdom of the heavens; and whosoever shall receive one such little child in my name, receives me. But whosoever shall offend one of these little ones ...”. That is, he is unprotected from the human point of view, but he is protected spiritually, and therefore we come to the thought of angels; he is protected under the angels. It says they behold the face of the Father. These are wonderful thoughts and practical thoughts, too, and ought to be valued and used and counted on. It says of the angels, “Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out for service on account of those who shall inherit salvation?”
PHH What is the force of the expression: “Behold the face of my Father who is in the heavens”?
JT Just what we were saying, that the little ones have angels. I suppose each one has an angel allotted to him.
RWS Do you suggest little ones physically as well as morally?
JT I think so; both thoughts are here in this chapter.
Ques Would Samuel answer to this point of being called?
JT Just so. Jehovah called Samuel, and he answered the divine call. Samuel is representative of all that we have been saying as to a child. He was a peculiar child, and in connection with him we get the desires of his mother, Hannah, so that he was watched over according to his growth every year. A little coat was brought to him every year, meaning that she would have to take his measure. The mother knew his measure; she knew what be would need as a coat, and so we have brought out in Samuel the full thought of what we are talking [p. 271] of as to little ones. Then as he grew up into manhood, he answered fully to it.
Ques Would Joseph be an example of one who was available? He was 17 years of age, we are told in Genesis 37, and his father said “Come, that I may send thee to ... thy brethren”.
JT Yes, and he was opposed and hated by his brethren, showing that the principle of all that we are saying would appear in Joseph, as also in Samuel. They are two remarkable children, or young people, in the Old Testament. The New Testament is, in a sense, full of them, because the brethren now, who have children, baptise them. It was not the practice always to baptise children, but the brethren nearly always now do baptise their children and so they become endeared to them, and valuable to them, because they are committed to the Lord in baptism.
Ques Does Solomon help as to the moral thought of a little child? He says in his prayer to God asking for help in matters of judgment, “I am but a little child”.
JT That is good, because he was subject, of course. He was particularly lovable to his father because of his history, and because of his mother too — Bathsheba.
WSS Are you thinking of Solomon as giving us the two thoughts together of sonship and the little child? He thanks Jehovah that a son has been provided to sit on David’s throne, and then he says in regard of the kingdom: “I am but a little child”.
JT That shows that he was humble and that is just what is needed in the little children. But then in view of this, they ought to be protected, and no doubt Samuel and Solomon and Joseph are particularly in the mind of the Spirit of God as to little children. When you come to Solomon, it is a question [p. 272] not of a little child literally, but of a subject child; he was subject to his father.
Rem The angel comes in in Matthew 2 to protect the little Child.
JT Just so. The little child, I suppose, is mentioned in Matthew because the thought there is that He is not simply a babe; He is developed. There is some sort of development implied in the expression “little child”, rather than in Luke who uses the word “babe”. I think the terms “the little child” or “the boy” as mentioned in Acts 20, imply growth or development. I think it implies that the Lord Himself has developed in the fact that He is called “the little child”. Then He is called “the little child with Mary his mother”, and then He is worshipped as with His mother.
Ques The Lord says in verse 4: “Whoever therefore shall humble himself”. Does that not remind us of Philippians 2, where it says of the Lord, “having been found in figure as a man, humbled himself”. Is not that the Model?
JT Quite so, and it is very suggestive, as we have remarked already, that it is “this little child”. It is not any little child, but “this” one. It is a distinctive one, that the Lord selects. He does not call any little child, but it is whom He selects. He calls him, and sets him in the midst. That is to say, he is to be observed by the brothers and the sisters as in the midst.
Ques Verse 20 reads, “[p. 273] Where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them”. Is there a link in the way the Lord Jesus puts the little child in the midst, as though to indicate that that is the kind of spirit that needs to mark the saints if He is to come in?
JT We must go by this passage here: “Where two or three are gathered together unto my name”. He is One who has a fame, and a name to be respected,
“Where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them”. It is the full heavenly divine thought. He is a divine Person.
AB Would their prime concern be the glory of His holy name?
JT Quite so. “My name” is distinctive, and it involves power.
PHH Is this matter of protection to be practised by the brethren in regard of one another?
JT That is what the chapter implies, unquestionably, as we shall see, as we go on. First of all there is this question of the little child, and then the next thing is “But whosoever shall offend one of these little ones who believe in me, it were profitable for him that a great millstone had been hanged upon his neck and he be sunk in the depths of the sea”. That is to say, he is under protection. See what is said of him! The little one is under protection, and woe be to him who interferes or damages him. We can all thus count on being under divine protection in that sense.
SB Is the true beginning of this matter of the spirit of the little child the recognition of Jesus as Lord? I was thinking of Saul of Tarsus, who says, “Who art thou, Lord?” and then he says, “What shall I do, Lord?” and then he is led by the hand into Damascus.
JT Quite so. He is led by the hand; he became blind and he had to be led, so he is rendered powerless first in order that he may be made strong.
MB Is it seen primarily in Revelation 5, verse 6, in relation to the Lamb — a diminutive expression? Is that the supreme thought of a little one in relation to authority?
JT It is a sacrificial thought. The little one is unprotected. The word is a diminutive. The lamb is a word that denotes what is little, showing that [p. 274] he is unprotected. It is the little lamb as compared with a ram, such as might attack with his horns. He is a little lamb, he would not attack with his horns; still, he is seen as powerful, for the Lamb shall overcome them. These are wonderful facts!
RWS Even as Paul was amongst the Thessalonians. He speaks of his nursing service towards them, so that there should be no Mephibosheths damaged at Thessalonica.
JT Quite so. He was a nursing father, as it were, amongst them, which is very touching. He was peculiarly attached to the Thessalonian saints; the two epistles indicate that. Even in the second epistle instead of speaking about putting away or withdrawing, he says that one is to shrink from every brother walking disorderly; not to use violence or putting away, but withdraw from in the sense of shrinking. He is not being dealt with punitively at all in the second epistle any more than in the first. If we have to deal with a brother in discipline, if he is not very seriously offensive, we are to be careful and tender with him; we are to seek to encourage him to be right. That is the way the epistle is employed in the way of discipline.
AB Would the shrinking involve a measure of reserve?
JT It does. You can see that. If such a man invites you to dinner, you would hesitate to go. At the same time I would give him to understand there is some little thing that he has offended in; in some little way he has offended the brethren, and something has to be done. That is what I would think it means.
PHH But it would not go as far as assembly action?
JT No. That is right.
AJG It says: “Do not esteem him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother”.
JT Quite so. That final word is most exquisite because his brotherly relation is recognised.
PHH Does Paul’s call for fathers enter into this matter? He speaks to the Corinthians about there being not many fathers. Would the fatherly element amongst the saints provide this protection?
JT That is what he meant. Paul was that to them. They had not many fathers, but he was one anyway. They had him, and he explains how it was so.
PHH So would there have to be that fatherly care amongst us alongside of the instruction in the truth?
JT Quite so, and I think fatherly qualities are very scarce in the sense of protection among the brethren. At the same time I believe the care manifest has made up the loss, although eldership should make it up. Primarily there was no care meeting enjoined, as far as I see, but it has come in modernly, and God has blessed the idea of care. The word care is connected with the thought of the elder in the epistle to Timothy.
Ques Is the principle of care exemplified in the Lord’s parable in regard of the lost sheep and leaving the ninety and nine?
JT Quite so, we will come to that, but we ought to dwell a little more on the matter of ‘woe’. In verse 7 we have “Woe to the world because of offences! For it must needs be that offences come; yet woe to that man by whom the offence comes!” and so it goes on further, “If thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut it off and cast it from thee; it is good for thee to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into eternal fire”. We have now come to one of the most solemn things we get in Matthew, and we get it peculiarly in Matthew. That is to say, the idea of judgment by eternal fire. It is the lake of fire,
[p. 276] really. It is enlarged on in the book of Revelation and is a question of a lake, meaning that it is confined or limited. It is terrible destruction, terrible suffering, a lake of fire; there is no way out.
AJG So that we have to be drastic with ourselves so that we do not stumble any of these little ones by our actions or movements.
JT “If thy hand or thy foot offend thee”, it is yourself. If you are offending yourself, or damaging yourself, or doing harm to yourself, then you are told what to do here.
Ques What would be the force of not only cutting it off, but casting it from you?
JT To show your abhorrence of it. The thing that develops sometimes in us, what the flesh is as working in us, you show your abhorrence of it.
Rem I wondered whether perhaps we come to a partial judgment about a thing and cut it off, but the thing is not drastically dealt with and it may recur.
JT If it is cast from you, it does not recur; it does not come back, so to speak.
Rem Yes, if it is drastically dealt with and cast where it cannot be found again, then we may be safe.
JT Yes, and that agrees pretty much with what you have when you come to an offending brother. He is to be as a heathen and a publican, which shows the severity of the discipline that you exert toward him. It is very different from the one we have been mentioning in the second epistle to the Thessalonians.
Ques Would you say what is involved in the expression “enter into life”? Verse 8: “it is good for thee to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into eternal fire”, and in the next verse, “it is good for thee to enter into life one-eyed ...”
JT [p. 277] I think it is unfolded in the epistle to the Romans, in chapter 5. I think you will find there what life means and how you get into life.
PHH You are referring to the end of the chapter. It speaks first of all about justification of life, and then at the end, “as sin has reigned in the power of death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord”.
JT Do you not think that indicates how we enter into life? The gospel implies it, so that instead of damaging men or persons you are concerned about their entering into life, you will not damage people there.
PHH Entering into life must involve a sphere.
JT Just so; very good. Eternal life is a sphere. It has often been mentioned, especially through the ministry of Mr. Raven, that eternal life is a sphere.
PHH Would you say it is different from the Spirit as life and power within us?
JT Quite so. Life is within you by the Spirit, of course, but we were referring to entering into a sphere called eternal life. It is a sphere and you come into it. “Lay hold”, it says, “of eternal life”. That means that it is available to you.
HH I believe Mr. Raven’s expression was ‘a state or sphere of blessing prepared by God for men’.
JT Mr. Darby gave the definition of eternal life, and Mr. Raven enlarged on it.
JTJr Mr. Darby said ‘An out-of-the-world heavenly condition of relationship and being’.
JT That is the one — very good — I am glad you remembered it. I forgot it, but I knew it very well.
Ques Does it not suggest the sphere in which the truth is worked out in contrast to all the hostility around? Does the assembly come into life in that [p. 278] sphere in contrast to all the deadness of mere religion around?
JT So that the assembly may be used as a synonym of the sphere we are talking about. The assembly is a sphere of eternal life, because the Spirit of God is in it and the fellowship is in it.
JTJr Would that be in mind in Corinth, that the assembly was there — “the assembly of God which is in Corinth”?
JT Just so.
JTJr Would you think that the leadership in Corinth might have been of such character that young people might have been damaged?
JT It did undoubtedly damage them, but there is this to be said about Corinth, that the incestuous person referred to in the first epistle was recovered, or restored, quicker than the apostle expected, which was very cheering; he was restored quicker than the apostle expected. So it is well to see a recovery happen quicker than the brethren could expect.
Ques Do we see the right spirit of this in regard of Paul discoursing? It says, “A certain youth, by name Eutychus ... fell from the third story down to the bottom”, and then it says, “Paul descending fell upon him, and enfolding him in his arms, said, Be not troubled, for his life is in him”.
JT You are referring to Eutychus and the affections of Paul descending. He had gone up, but he is now descending. He had been discoursing with the saints at Troas, but now he has descended, and he enfolds Eutychus in his arms, and eventually he went up, and they broke bread, and they brought the boy away alive. He is called a boy there.
HH Is there not a kind of Philadelphian touch about that? Things had gone to the bottom, but then you have “they brought away the boy alive, and were no little comforted”.
JT The Lord promises to Philadelphia: “I also will keep thee out of the hour of trial, which is about to come upon the whole habitable world, to try them that dwell upon the earth”. That is one of the most comforting things that I know of, because the Lord is not going to allow us to go through the apostasy. He is going to save us out of it.
PHH In this parable of the shepherd, are we right in supposing that the sheep may not be found? It says, in verse 13, “If it should come to pass that he find it”.
JT I would apply the word latitude there; the latitude that enters into divine language, ‘If he find it’ — let us assume that he does find it. The Lord speaks the parable in that sense, and He would not speak of a thing that did not happen, I would say.
PHH In Luke he makes it quite definite — “having found it”. You think that the same spirit really lies behind this?
JT I do.
Ques But is not recovery of persons in mind here? It says, “the Son of man has come to save that which was lost”, and then the man seeks the sheep, and then “If he hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother”.
JT Just so. As we were saying at the beginning, we are never forced to the wall. God does not allow it to be that way; He makes a way out for us; however critical the position may be, there is a way out made for us. That I believe, is what is implied in this chapter. Because the assembly is enlarged upon in this chapter; it is a great vessel and available for divine purposes. The chapter contemplates that the assembly takes the place of the Lord Jesus, who has now gone to heaven. There is something here in His stead, and that is the assembly, the great vessel that is here available to Him for His own [p. 280] purposes, and especially for the salvation of His people, because we learnt some years past that salvation is in the assembly. It used to be just salvation as a gift, and that is true, but there is a sphere for it, and that sphere is in the assembly. So we must bring in the assembly in our preaching in connection with salvation.
JP The Lord says: “Tell it to the assembly”. He does not say tell it to Me.
JT Quite so.
Ques In verse 10 it says: “See that ye do not despise one of these little ones”. Do you think that in actuality we may despise the young ones in not encouraging them to come into the assembly livingly?
JT Just so. They might seem to you to be defenceless, you would not mind damaging them, but they are not defenceless because the Lord has protected them in what He is saying here. Even if they are little ones, even if they are unable to protect themselves, the Lord is implying here that He is affording protection for them, and the assembly is that protection, and therefore the assembly should be brought forward in the gospel properly. It ought to be brought forward because it affords protection. It is not simply that a man is saved if he believes in the Lord Jesus, but why and how is he saved? We are supposed to learn things, and so in Acts 16 the man brings his house into things, and lays the table, and so forth.
Rem At the beginning of the Acts we are told the Lord added daily to the assembly such as were to be saved.
JT Just so. The only trouble there is that the word ‘assembly’ may not be there, but still it is the idea. It just says that the Lord added, but He added [p. 281] to something.
PHH We should be very thankful for some help about this hearing and listening. It says: “If he hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother”, and then: “If he will not listen to them”, that is the two or three, and then: “If also he will not listen to the assembly”. Would you mind saying something for our help about that, especially the listening to the assembly?
JT I think it is just what we said at the beginning. The assembly is a vessel of protection and salvation. That was stressed some years back, and God has blessed it, and we ought to bring forward the idea of the assembly in the gospel. To preach the gospel properly, we should go so far as the assembly, and say ‘Come into fellowship’, because you will get salvation there; you will get protection there; you will get love there; that is the basis of it. These are all important matters for those who preach the gospel.
HH Would it be right to say that salvation is in the house of God?
JT Quite, but I prefer the assembly because the assembly is the vessel which God has provided. You know how these thoughts came in as regards the gospel, and have been developed during the last fifty years. That is, the assembly is a vessel of protection, a vessel of salvation, and should be added to the idea of the gospel.
HH There was quite a discussion about it some years ago, whether salvation was in the house of God or not. I thought we got help at that time that it was so, it was in the house of God, and the house of God and the assembly are one and the same thing, are they not?
JT It is called that. “God’s house, which is the assembly of the living God, the pillar and base of the truth”. That is what it is called.
Ques Does Noah’s ark suggest the idea of a sphere of salvation?
JT Surely. He prepared it for that purpose; he prepared an ark for the saving of his house.
GHM I should like to ask what is the link between the protection there is in the assembly and the protection that comes in the confession of Jesus as Lord.
JT Well, of course, confession comes in according to the word in Romans 10: “If thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thine heart that God has raised him from among the dead, thou shalt be saved”. That is quite true, but then that is not the whole truth. The whole truth is that the assembly is the sphere for that purpose, and although the word ‘assembly’ is doubtful in the passage in Acts 2: “the Lord added to the assembly daily those that were to be saved”, the Lord added them to something, and that was undoubtedly the assembly or the Christian circle, as it used to be called.
HH Is it not a very serious thing that we are surrounded by a lot of young people who take the ground of having their sins forgiven, but there is no moving forward to break bread?
JT I will tell you something about the young people, and that is, that you often find them diverted by linking on with others of their own age, instead of staying by those who are experienced and who can help them. That is why the idea of the assembly as a sphere of salvation is so evident and so important. Children just go off by themselves, with persons of their own age and they get no help at all. They talk about things that are of no value to them.
Rem Elisha did not keep the company of the fifty valiant men; he kept the company of an older brother, Elijah, until the very end. Would that be an example?
[p. 283] JT Very good. Elijah told him if he saw him when he went up all that he wanted would come to pass, but he had to see Elijah go up.
GWB Does the inn in Luke 10 refer to the assembly?
JT I think so. But it is not like a house, it is a hotel. You never get the comforts in a hotel that you get in your own house; although we have to be thankful for them. That is to say, it is something, it is some protection or some comfort for the one who seeks it on a journey.
ECB What should we look for in those seeking to take their place in the breaking of bread?
JT That they love the brethren, I would say. Of course, they would have life; they believe in the truth; they come to the readings and the like, and get instruction, and they have life, but then if they want to come into fellowship they would show the fact by seeking the company of the Lord’s people.
GCS Are we not to be encouraged that there are quite a number of young people who know their sins forgiven and have come forward to break bread, and many of them were here last night, most of them children of the saints; would that encourage us too?
JT Very good. I get letters from Mr. S. very often, and he never sends a letter without there being some encouragement in it. I would like to be able to tell the brethren the facts that Mr. S. has written to me about persons coming into fellowship, so as to encourage every young person here.
WC Would you say a word as to authority that you commenced with in this section from verse 15 onwards? When it says “if he hear thee” it implies that the brother has some authority with his brother, is that right? Then we have the two and finally, the assembly.
JT Verse 15 says: “If thy brother sin against thee, go, reprove him between thee and him alone. If he hear thee”, that means if he listens to what you are saying and is ready to receive it, “thou hast gained thy brother. But if he do not hear thee, take with thee” — that is companionship — “take with thee one or two besides, that every matter may stand upon the word of two witnesses or of three. But if he will not listen to them, tell it to the assembly; and if he also will not listen to the assembly ...” the word ‘listen’ implies the person attending to what is being said at any time, “and if also he will not listen to the assembly, let him be to thee as one of the nations and a tax-gatherer. Verily I say to you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatsoever ye shall loose on the earth shall be loosed in heaven”. Well now, these are most important facts because we have to deal with them constantly in our gatherings, and we do refer to this scripture constantly and God helps us in it. It is therefore a means of correction amongst the brethren, a means of peace, a means of happy fellowship.
WC I was wondering whether it would be helpful to us to realise that each brother or sister has an authority in love over their brothers and sisters. Would not that be the first thing? Ought we to recognise authority in love in one another?
JT Quite so; I would say that. And so love is the greater. It says, “Now abide faith, hope, love; these three things; and the greater of these is love”. If a person has love he has moral authority with his brethren. But I wonder if I am answering you fully.
WC I thought that was helpful to bring love in. “Thy brother” is the family idea and I wondered whether it would prevent many further difficulties if we listened to one another on that line.
JT [p. 285] It works out in the thought of the assembly, too, because the assembly is the sphere of love, but it is the sphere of eternal life too.
F W. Is this matter of reproving a brother optional, or is it the Lord’s commandment when there is something that calls for it?
JT Do you not think this is the Lord’s commandment that we are dealing with?
FW Sometimes people say, Why should I bother about the matter, and therefore many cases of recovery of a brother are not brought about and the matter comes to the assembly.
JT It is preceded by this: “If therefore thou ... shouldest remember that thy brother has something against thee, leave there thy gift before the altar, and first go, be reconciled to thy brother”, Matthew 5: 23, 24. That is a great commandment, is it not? It is available to us at all times. “Leave there thy gift before the altar”. You have gone to offer something, but you leave the gift there and go and be reconciled to your brother and then come and offer the gift. So that God’s heart is met and the brother is gained, according to chapter 5 of this gospel.
FW Has not this sort of reproving in mind the recovery of a brother?
JT Assuredly. But then, as I have said before, do you not think that is important too, to leave your gift? You have got a gift and you have come to offer it, and you remember that your brother has something against you, and you leave the gift there and go away to your brother and be reconciled to him. It does not say try and be reconciled to him, but be reconciled to him. I think that is most important.
JP You have said elsewhere that these two scriptures would provide for every difficulty that can possibly arise amongst the [p. 286] saints.
JT That is just what I would say. God would never allow us to be driven to the wall, because He has got a way open for us. God is God and He loves His people, and He will do His best for them. Therefore we can count on Him as we draw upon Him according to this chapter.
PL Does the expression, “If also he will not listen to the assembly” suggest that the delinquent is addressed and appealed to in the assembly?
JT Quite so. “If also he will not listen to the assembly”. The assembly clearly is saying something to him, and he will not listen. Then the next thing is “let him be to thee as one of the nations and a tax-gatherer”. In other words, he is not fit for fellowship.
VCL Is there not the thought of elevation brought in in the voice of the assembly, so that it is like a voice from the mountain, that would be most appealing to anyone who could be appealed to, in view of repentance?
JT Very good.
PHH We heard you had a case in New York where two sisters were concerned, and when the case was outlined, you or somebody else, appealed to these two sisters as to whether they would consider what was said, and repent. Is it fair to ask you about that?
JT Well, as far as I remember they did not respond. But we have had one person in a similar case, and she did respond, and remained in fellowship, and it brought up the idea as to how recovery could be brought about when the assembly is convened for discipline.
PHH Does that mean, then, that when the matter is actually before the assembly as convened, you would be free to appeal to the person who was the subject [p. 287] of the case?
JT Certainly I would.
PHH Ask them there and then what they think about it?
JT Quite so; appeal to them.
JTJr It was done just as you say; the persons were appealed to.
PHH And if they said we would like time to think about it, would you grant it to them?
JT Well, to grant time to them would be another matter, because the matter would be left open then. But if the assembly is convened for discipline then that is a good time to appeal, but if you let the thing go then nothing is done and the enemy would get some advantage. If they do not respond, I would say then we would have to carry through with the discipline which we intend to do.
PHH That is, it depends on the nature of the case.
JT Quite so; but God is God, as I was saying, and the assembly is God’s assembly, and the Spirit of God is there. It is a vessel for the Spirit of God, and it is a vessel for eternal life, too, so that it is a place where love is, and where grace is, and it is all available to be used in the Spirit.
ECM It would be a question of discernment at the time as to any confession that might be made.
JT Just so; it is a question of discernment.
ECM I was thinking of the scripture: “the spiritual discerns all things, and he is discerned of no one”.
JT Just so. We often refer to what David says to Abigail, “Blessed be thy discernment”. That is characteristic of the assembly.
Ques Do we gather that in the case referred to they were sisters who were appealed to?
JTJr There were two sisters that were appealed to.
Ques. [p. 288] Did they speak?
JTJr They whispered that they did not change their minds. That is the way it was handled.
EAL Both the sisters concerned, who were natural sisters, separately said “No”.
JT What was intended to be inflicted was inflicted, that is to say, they were shut out from fellowship; in fact they left it.
WSS Does it mean that in meetings of this character, that is meetings that you have spoken of as for discipline, we should be more expectant that there might be repentance at the time?
JT Just so. At the beginning of the Acts it was a time of great liberty, so that there were three thousand brought in and added, as it says. It was a time of grace; a time of mercy too, but a time of grace, and there were three thousand persons added. That is the greatest number spoken of in the Acts as at one time.
Ques And was not Saul of Tarsus converted much quicker than Ananias expected?
JT Well, I would say that, too.
GCS Would there not always be in our hearts the sense that we ourselves have been forgiven of God?
JT Just so. If we proceed in our chapter we shall get something like that, for the last section of the chapter (from verse 21) answers all these questions as regards grace and mercy as learned in the gospel. Then the added word is very conclusive: “Thus also my heavenly Father ...” that is the Lord Jesus saying that, it is the Father as peculiarly presented in Matthew, “my heavenly Father shall do to you if ye forgive not from your hearts every one his brother”. That is all worked out in this chapter, which is most conclusive, and most helpful for assembly matters. We are never shut up; there is a way open for us in [p. 289] every case.
RWS Would you say a word as to shaking hands with those under discipline as they begin to be recovered?
JT Well, I have heard that certain gatherings have come to the ‘shaking-hands time’, and not to the restoring time. People come to the meetings and participate in them, and they are still regarded as out of fellowship, and then it is reported that the brethren have come to the ‘shaking-hands time’, which I do not understand. If a man cannot be restored to fellowship I do not see how I can shake hands with him.
Ques Would you say that they should be prayed for in the public prayer meeting?
JT Surely. “Prayers ... for all men”. The assembly is the place of prayer for all these things. Hence on the Monday night we have a meeting for prayer, and in that meeting we may pray for anybody who might be a concern as to whether they could be restored.
HFN Does the assembly know anything of the nature of a partial forgiveness? If the brother is restored is he not thoroughly forgiven? Can you bring in a partial forgiveness?
JT I must confess I do not understand the word ‘partial’.
HFN One has known cases, in this country, where a brother has been forgiven and is restored, but an embargo is put upon him taking certain part in the assembly.
JT Would that not mean that the assembly is short of grace? There is no ground for the gospel in that assembly. There is surely some way out; God would find a way if a man is at all repentant and that he is developing in repentance.
Ques Does not assembly forgiveness take character from God’s own forgiveness?
JT Just so: “Every good gift and every perfect gift comes down from above, from the Father of lights, with whom is no variation nor shadow of turning”, James 1: 17.
EAL What Mr. Nunnerley has mentioned lowers the thought of the breaking of bread. If we have felt that a brother is fit to break bread, he is fit to act in any other way in the assembly.
JT I would say that.
Ques Could we have one more word as to confession in an assembly meeting? We have always felt free for a brother to confess, but are you saying that the way is open also for a sister?
JT Yes, surely. The brother and sister are on the same basis, in that sense. But I do not understand how the sisters should be excluded in anybody’s mind.
Rem Because of the passage, “Let your women be silent in the assemblies”.
JT The meaning there is that she is not to minister, and the like of that. But you might ask her something actually in the room; that would be quite simple. You ask a question which would be quite simple and that would not transgress Paul’s injunction at all. There is latitude, as we have often said, in these meetings; there is certain latitude in the divine things that ought to be observed. We ought to be sensible that God is not unreasonable, and we should not be unreasonable or insensible to what is right.
MB Does the case of Ananias and Sapphira support what is being said?
JT I think so, but one very important thing I would say about Ananias and Sapphira is that I think they were real Christians; they were buried. They are in the period of grace, and although they had sinned, yet both the wife and the husband were [p. 291] buried. The book of Ecclesiastes speaks of persons who are not buried (Ecclesiastes 6: 3).
Ques It says in Acts 5, “Peter answered her, Tell me if ye gave the estate for so much? And she said, Yes, for so much”. Does that mean that she answered him publicly?
JT She lied, and tempted the Spirit of the Lord, we are told. There was no confession there.
Ques But I mean with regard to the suggestion as to a sister confessing. When Peter asked her the question she appears to answer him audibly and publicly on that occasion. Might that illustrate how a sister could give expression to a confession publicly?
JT I do not see why she could not.
JSE Would it be legitimate to view the assembly in this setting as convened for a particular matter, the matter of discipline, and not for teaching. Would it therefore be suitable for a sister, if necessary, to speak publicly in confession when answering a question?
JT Well, in a very seemly way, I would say. I am glad you brought that up because I think it is well to recognise that it is convened for a certain purpose. It is not for teaching, it is for discipline, and discipline has to be carried out, and if a sister is guilty and is willing to confess that she is wrong, why should she not be heard if she speaks in a seemly way? Everything is to be done in order, for God is a God of order, but still a sister is quite right to confess a sin if she is ready to do it, if she is ready to save her place in the assembly.
VCL Is not the assembly thus fully representative of what Peter says, that “the Lord ... is long-suffering towards you, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance”.
JT Very [p. 292] good.
WC Would it not be right and suitable to encourage all such persons to come? In many cases they are absent when the matter is taken up.
JT Just so. Sometimes they do not come because they expect to be disciplined, but if they do come and are ready to intimate their confession and their sorrow for their sin, why should they not be heard? I should certainly say they should be heard, if they speak in a seemly way.
PL Grace giving them their last opportunity under the most favourable circumstances, and in the presence of the most powerful influence available on earth.
JT Quite so, the most powerful influence, that is the Spirit of God in the assembly.
PL And if that is rejected it is in principle apostasy.
AWR Would the case of the matter of jealousy in Numbers 5 have any bearing on this? It says there, “And the woman shall say, Amen, amen”.
JT Quite so. Numbers 5 deals with the matter of the assumption of the wife being unfaithful to her husband, and she says “Amen” to what is said against her.