THE RIGHTS OF DIVINE PERSONS
THE RIGHTS OF DIVINE PERSONS
Acts 1:1-5; Acts 1:9; Acts 2: 1 - 4; Acts 9: 1 - 10; Acts 10: 1 - 16
JT I think the passages read serve to show that divine Persons reserve rights at all times to come in on the earth or to go out into heaven, and even to stay there. There is a certain mystery attached to all this, but perhaps it is not much discerned by us, especially the fact that divine Persons, or divine messengers, indicate their rights. They have certain rights as to heavenly places and the extent even of heaven itself. The plural is much used in referring to heaven, and there is a certain mystery, as, for instance, the Lord Himself going up and the cloud receiving Him out of the sight of the disciples, so that it cannot be said how far He goes. It cannot be said with definiteness how far the Lord went, and how He went or where He went after the cloud received Him. Then we have the fact that before He went up He remained forty days with the disciples, and then He went up, and although there were certain indications that He would come back again, yet it is all left open. It is for faith to lay hold of it and expect things to happen. All will culminate in the age to come, so that completely new movements from heaven will take place and these movements may occur at any time now because we have no prophetic testimony, as to literality requiring fulfilment. We are left, therefore, in the faith period. We have to trust God as to it, and count on Him to act from His own point of view, and be ready for the actions. There are evidently worlds that are not given account of in the Scriptures, and yet God is using them. We cannot say much as to them, but we read in Hebrews of “worlds” in the plural and that God made the worlds by the Lord Jesus. We cannot say how many there are, or when God may [p. 358] use them; they clearly go beyond the present earth where we are, and since they are in the plural, there must be more than one world. At the same time we are left to mystery, so that we just have to bow and humble ourselves as to it, but as we wait on God things happen that give some clues as to what exists, and what will happen. So that faith is left to trust in God and to leave things with Him. It says in verse 6: “They therefore, being come together, asked him saying, Lord, is it at this time that thou restorest the kingdom to Israel? And he said to them, It is not yours to know times or seasons, which the Father has placed in his own authority; but ye will receive power, the Holy Spirit having come upon you, and ye shall be my witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth. And having said these things he was taken up, they beholding him, and a cloud received him out of their sight”. So that clearly the position is left vague. Then the next question is whether the Lord will not come down corporeally on the earth in the interim. He comes, certainly, on the first day of the week in connection with the service of God, in the Spirit, but at the beginning He came down corporeally, as well, and this has to be taken account of. Presently He will come and, as it says in Revelation 1, “every eye shall see him, and they which have pierced him, and all the tribes of the land shall wail because of him”. That is when He ushers in the millennial day, but then, in the interim, faith is left to expect the Lord to come. That is to say, “The Lord Himself, with an assembling shout, with archangel’s voice and with trump of God, shall descend from heaven; and the dead in Christ shall rise first”. All these things are to be kept in mind, and we are not to assume that we know the things literally until the time comes for them, until the time comes when God acts. We are [p. 359] therefore left in faith, for faith is the principle, namely waiting upon God.
AJG Does this position of our being left in faith make the abiding presence with us of the Holy Spirit all the more valuable and important?
JT Very good. I should have mentioned something about that, but the fact is that the Spirit was sent down, and He remains on earth, He is not said to have gone up. He remains on earth, although He is not on earth literally, but in the assembly. He remains in the assembly, and He is here to look after things for the assembly, and act for the assembly.
AJG I was thinking of how Simeon, as moving in the Spirit, came into the temple just at the right time, when things were happening. Does that fall in with your thought at all?
JT Just so. He is introduced as “a man in Jerusalem” — that is characteristic of him. He was about to leave too, for the word was, “Lord, now thou lettest thy bondman go, according to thy word, in peace; for mine eyes have seen thy salvation”.
Rem What occurred in Acts 2 is said to be “suddenly”.
JT And then it is a mysterious thing that happened. It says “And there came suddenly a sound out of heaven as of a violent impetuous blowing” — all that is mysterious — “and filled all the house” — that should be noticed too; it was not external, abroad in the air, but it filled all the house. The house is in mind, where the disciples were.
PHH Are you thinking that the coming of the sound out of heaven is one of the assertions of heaven’s right to come in on the earth?
JT Just so. It is a sound, and then there is a light from heaven, as well. The sound is very distinctive because the word ‘sound’ is referred to in 1 Corinthians 14.
PHH [p. 360] And the sound here is connected with the word ‘blowing’ and the note links it on with the thought of breathing, ‘blowing, as of hard breathing’. Would that mean, in some way, that the inwards of God were concerned in this?
JT That is just what I have often thought of. You have to be careful in using the word ‘inwards’ but, at the same time, that is the idea. Evidently the affections of God were involved in it, which is a very touching thing to my mind, and then the sound attaching to it. Impetuous blowing would imply that the lungs would be involved. We have to be reverential in regard of God, but the idea of lungs would be involved.
Ques Is the indication that all this took place in relation to a company that were, in a certain sense, equal to it?
JT Very good, that is right. The number, too, is given, about one hundred and twenty. The crowd of names refers to life.
Rem I was thinking of the product of the Lord’s own work, and His instruction to them during the forty days, resulting in a company that were together, and ready, in a certain sense, for this remarkable new movement on the part of heaven.
JT Just so, and then all that enters into that in a mysterious sense as in the gospel of Matthew. It says “many bodies of the saints fallen asleep arose, and going out of the tombs after his arising, entered into the holy city and appeared unto many”. Well, that is all we know, we can say no more about it, but at the same time it is something to be thought of, and shows that believers have access, or those of us who have faith have some access to the mysteries of God, which perhaps we do not think of very much. The very words are used — “the mysteries of God”, and then again the word ‘mystery’ is referred [p. 361] to in connection with the assembly. Paul has that mystery, he is the minister of the assembly.
Ques In chapter 2 it is a sound out of heaven, in chapter 9 it is a light out of heaven, in chapter 10 there is a vessel descending out of heaven. Is that a sort of culmination?
JT Very good, that is just what is in mind — the sound, and the light and the sheet, too. The sheet went up and came down and went up and came down and went up to stay. It is all mystery, but we just have to bow to it, and think over it, and we become mysterious ourselves; so that we are not like ordinary people, if we are really believers, we are mysterious. If we have the Holy Spirit we are mysterious ourselves, and we are going up too, according to the passage we have just quoted, “The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout”. The service of God, too, in itself is mysterious, because change takes place almost constantly as we come together counting on the Spirit. The Spirit being present and the Lord coming in amongst us, a change is bound to take place. Change takes place in the Lord, and then change takes place in us. It is all mysterious, but at the same time it is instructive and solemn, and ought to direct us to heaven itself, because the idea is that we are going into heaven. We are not going beyond the heavens; we do not go outside of the realm of creation, but, at the same time, we are going into the heavens. Paul went into the heavens; he was caught up to the third heaven, and we do not know just what happened; in fact he says he did not know whether he was in the body or out of it, but there it is. He was conscious of unseen things.
Ques Are you thinking of the expression “caught up” in the passage just quoted? “Then we, the living who remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air”.
JT “In the air”, it is remarkable, and then there is a word that follows which really concludes the idea there, “and thus we shall be always with the Lord”. We cannot say how deep the air is, but still there it is, “in the air”. The Lord Himself went up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight, but then how far did He go, and what realm did He go into? What can be understood as to it? These are facts, and mysterious facts, but they are spiritual facts, and they are intended to impress us, and make us spiritual.
PL Was that pre-figured in relation to Manoah and his wife — the angel of Jehovah said that his name was wonderful, and then it says, after he wrought wondrously, that “as the flame went up from off the altar towards the heavens, that the Angel of Jehovah ascended in the flame of the altar”. Manoah and his wife then worshipped.
JT That is an additional thought, that only adds to what we are saying. One is speaking of it because one feels that we all ought to take it to heart, as to whether we are becoming spiritual, because we are going into a spiritual realm, and God intends us to be spiritual.
PHH You were speaking just now of change. There was evidently a change came about with these men, because it says in verse 7, “And all were amazed and wondered, saying, Behold, are not all these who are speaking Galileans?” But that did not cover all the truth, did it?
JT Far otherwise.
PHH And are you suggesting that change, therefore, is constantly going on with the saints?
JT I think so, and especially on the first day of the week, because the first day of the week (the Lord’s day as it can be called) is a mysterious day. It is the day on which the disciples came together to [p. 363] break bread, and then they had a remarkable time according to Acts 20.
CH Is that indicated in 2 Corinthians 3? It speaks there of our being transformed.
JT Just so. That chapter contemplates the Spirit called “the Lord”. The Spirit is addressed as the Lord, “the Lord the Spirit”, and then we come into change because it says definitely, we are “transformed according to the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Lord the Spirit”. Well, now, these are wonderful facts, and one wonders whether the brethren are being affected by them, because we ought to be prepared for heaven itself.
Ques Is the matter of mystery, seen in the verse in 1 Corinthians 2, “the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God”? Then at the end of that chapter you have “the spiritual discerns all things, and he is discerned of no one”. Is that the believer, mysterious?
JT Quite so, “the spiritual discerns all things”, a remarkable thing — all things, and nobody else does, and he is not known by others; he is a mysterious man. It is more or less like the Lord Himself, of whom it is said that He went beyond all heavens. Nobody else went there as far as we know, but He must have gone into an uncreated condition. The point is mystery, and it is intended to affect us. All these facts are intended to affect us spiritually.
CH In the passage just quoted the apostle says, “We speak God’s wisdom in a mystery”, as though it is enveloped, so to speak.
JT Quite so.
AJG Would not all this shut out the natural mind, and make us realise how entirely dependent we are on the Spirit to enter into the things of God.
JT We have access to them in the sense in which we have just heard read and the question is now especially about young people, whether they [p. 364] are becoming sobered by it, and thus fitted for heavenly places.
GWB Was the Lord’s coming in John 20, when the doors were closed, a sort of model of what you have in mind?
JT Just so. They were closed for fear of the Jews; it was to keep the Jews out, but the Lord Himself appeared in the midst, nevertheless. “In the midst” is the word, and that is an expression that in earlier days we had considerable conflict about. It is a phrase which ought to be kept treasured in our hearts, because it says the Lord appeared in the midst. Some might say, well, He is here permanently, but that is not the thought. The gospel of John shows that He comes, and comes and goes, too.
Ques Is that why it is said that He stood — “stood in the midst”, as though there was further movement in view?
JT Quite so.
PHH The passage in 2 Corinthians 3 was quoted. We are not told what the changes are; it says, “Transformed ... from glory to glory”. Would that lead us to be constantly expectant as to any change that may come in?
JT I think it ought to. Then the word ‘change’ of course, applies to the Lord Himself. He says, “I am ... the living one: and I became dead, and behold, I am living to the ages of ages”. He says He became dead, meaning that He changed from a state of life into a state of death. Then again He is raised from the dead.
PHH With regard to the Lord’s day morning, this thought of change would stop us from thinking of the meeting as being always the same.
JT Quite so. I am glad you mention that, because the Lord’s supper is the Lord’s supper; it is not the Father’s supper, as we often say, nor the Spirit’s supper, but the Lord’s supper. Then it has a termination; it passes on to something else. The Lord becomes the Minister of the sanctuary, and He leads on to the Father, to His Father and our Father, and to His God and our God, so that God is the ultimate of everything — we go to God.
Ques Does that not involve a change from the local position into what is universal spiritually?
JT Very good, and not only that but it involves the sexes too. We begin when we come together as brothers and sisters, but then the power of the Spirit implies that there is a change, and the idea is that we are all sons eventually, because God is bringing many sons to glory. So the idea of sex no longer enters into the matter, and what we appropriate in the service of God is that we are all sons. It is a wholly spiritual thought; God is bringing many sons to glory, and sonship includes the sisters, as well as the brothers. All these things are just mentioned to show that we are dealing with spiritual things and change, change, you might say, almost constantly.
WC Would that be suggested in the type of Joseph giving changes of clothing to his brethren, and five changes to Benjamin?
JT Well, just so.
WC So that we may appear in accord with the way the Lord manifests Himself.
JT Just so. The idea of change is constantly in mind; even an individual may be changed. Paul was changed. He says: “I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago”. He did not have anything of the kind before — it was fourteen years before, and then he tells us that he was caught up to the third heaven. He did not know whether he was in the body or out of it. All these things are mysterious, and then he says he had “a thorn for the flesh”,
[p. 366] because the Lord would preserve him from being inflated. “There was given to me”, he says, “a thorn for the flesh”. The flesh is to be held in check.
RWS So is it quite normal for our faces and ourselves to take on a change? If there is an inward change, is there not some corresponding physical change in the faces of the saints?
JT Well, there is. Take Peter in the passage we read in chapter 10. He went to the house-top to pray, and became hungry, but then an ecstasy came upon him. Well, now, that was change. He had a vision, and the sheet was let down from heaven three times and then it went up to stay, so that it indicates clearly what may happen at any time. Who can say whether persons have changes or not? We do not always tell people what we go through, but we become habituated to it, habituated to change, and the service of God on the first day of the week above all brings about change. It really leads to the idea of our becoming sons in our approach to God the Father.
AJG There was a change came about in Stephen even in the testimonial position. It says that “all who sat in the council, looking fixedly on him, saw his face as the face of an angel”.
JT Quite so; very good.
HH Would the thought of change carry with it the thought of condition sometimes? Is there a distinction between the Lord Jesus as on earth and the Lord in resurrection? Would that indicate a change?
JT Quite so. He says, “a spirit has not flesh and bones as ye see me having”. That is a physical change in the Lord Himself as He died and rose again.
ECM It says in Philippians 3: “Who shall transform our body of humiliation into conformity to his body of glory”. Does that suggest the final thought of change?
JT Just so. We shall be like Him, for He will make us like Himself. Then another thing (we have already remarked on it elsewhere) in connection with the idea of change, is quickening. That is another word that can be applied, and Romans 8: 11 shows that we are quickened by the Spirit.
Rem It is the mortal body you have in mind there.
JT Just so. The quickening by the Spirit is of what is mortal. It says “shall quicken your mortal bodies”. The dead bodies are another thing, for it says, “the dead in Christ shall rise first”.
Ques Does the passage in 1 Corinthians 15 shows that all are changed. “Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed, in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye”. Does it show that radical change is necessary with all?
JT Quite so. Then there is the matter of Peter’s experience, an ecstasy, he came back to his natural state. He had an ecstasy, and had a vision of a sheet coming down from heaven knit at the four corners. Well, that is all wonderful mystery, but Peter had it, and it was that he might be prepared for further service. Things of that kind may happen to us, in order to enhance our service.
AB Would it be seen in Moses in that having been in the presence of God his face shone?
JT Just so.
Rem What impresses me in your remarks is that definite relationships have now been established from heaven with the assembly, and hence we can be watchful for what must be a heavenly movement.
JT Just so, and what I am endeavouring to say really means that the appearing of the Lord is probably very imminent, and we are entitled to think [p. 368] of its imminency. He is apt to come at any time, and nobody can question it, and that is just what I am endeavouring to speak of from these scriptures that we have read. He has right of way to come here even in a corporeal sense, if He wishes, and when He comes eventually for the saints, of course, He will come in a corporeal way, because the Lord Himself will appear; the Spirit will change our mortal bodies, but the dead saints will be raised, “the dead in Christ shall rise first”.
JMcK Would that be the import of the verse in John’s first epistle, chapter 3: “What we shall be has not yet been manifested; we know that if it is manifested we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is”. There would be no suggestion of delay in being like Him on the manifestation.
JT Just so. And then again, the transfiguration recorded in the gospels is a real matter. The Lord being transfigured, a real change came over Him. But then He came back again to His ordinary condition. So that all these things point in the same direction; that they are open to us and we ought to be ready for them, and to be different from ordinary people and even mysterious, not like ordinary people.
AJG Were you suggesting that in Acts 9 the Lord came out of heaven corporeally in order to speak to Saul. Is that what you had in mind?
JT Very good, and that illustrates another thing — He came into suffering, for He says, “Why dost thou persecute me?” That is to say, the Lord does not come directly from heaven, as far as I can understand, He comes to us from other parts of the earth where He may be. He met Paul, and He said to Paul, “Why dost thou persecute me?” He was in a place of persecution, not that He was literally persecuted physically, but He was in a place of persecution, and I gather therefore, that when the [p. 369] Lord comes to us according to the word in John 14, “I am coming to you”, He comes out of the place of persecution. So that He comes to us on the first day of the week, and He gives us to know that we are His friends. He establishes spiritual conditions with us, and there is no reason why any of us, if we are spiritual, may not come into these conditions to some extent. I mean to say the change that may come over us in view of the service of God, and the change from the ordinary conditions in which we are, including sex, to spiritual conditions, and then sonship conditions, for God is bringing many sons to glory. It does not say He has brought them, but He is bringing them.
PHH Does that mean to say that every change except the final one when our bodies will be changed, is possible to us now, by the Spirit?
JT I think so, that is the idea. The Spirit is here to do all these things, if necessary, for the sake of the testimony. He is down here all the time; not openly, as it were in the air, but in the assembly, wherever the saints are. That is the idea of the dwelling. It says of the Lord, “The Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father), full of grace and truth”. The Spirit dwells among His people, among us, and that must involve spirituality.
GWB Paul says in Acts 22 that they that were with him beheld the light, but heard not the voice.
JT Just so. That might be added to what we have had already; it is one of the things that bears out what we have been saying.
Ques Had Solomon typically a very wonderful sense of the greatness of God? He says, “Will God indeed dwell with man on the earth? behold, the heavens and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee”, 2 Chronicles 6: 18. Does that bring about in our souls a wonderful sense of the wonder of the economy into which God has come, so that He may dwell with man on the earth?
JT So that God is God and we are told that no one has seen Him at any time, yet, in another sense, certain ones do see Him. We have thus to compare spiritual with spiritual, especially chapter 5 of Matthew where there are nine things said about the saints and they are remarkable, including that the pure in heart shall see God. These nine things imply change.
HH Would you agree with Mr. Stoney (J.B.S., volume 2, page 223 and volume 8 page 52) that we are to be like Him to see Him, morally like Him now to see Him when He appears?
JT Well, that would be a spiritual thought, too. I would also say, referring to Mr. Stoney, although I did not know him, I believe he was a peculiarly spiritual man. It may be there is a slackness about us, that we are not like a man like that.
CH Whilst the Lord appeared to Saul personally, he appears to Ananias in a vision, but it was none the less real, was it? Ananias says to him, Lord. I was thinking of what you have said about the Lord moving in relation to what He was down here.
JT Surely, He spoke to Ananias and told him to go to a certain place, to a street called Straight, and so forth. The familiarity between the Lord and His people is remarkable.
RWS Is the Lord’s corporeal appearing to Paul to point to the greatness of our dispensation, because we hardly look for the Lord’s corporeal appearing now, do we, but did it not happen in our dispensation?
JT I do not think it is happening. I have not seen anybody that has seen the Lord. The only [p. 371] thing is, that there is such a thing as spirituality, excess of spirituality, and there is no telling what may be reached on those lines.
JSE Does that emphasise the necessity of being “in the Spirit”?
JT John says, “I became in the Spirit on the Lord’s day”. That was a special occasion, not indeed to imply that it did not happen before, because I am sure it did, but he mentions that there as something special. “I became in the Spirit on the Lord’s day”, and then he tells us what happened, in the first chapter of Revelation.
Ques Have you in mind that we should habituate ourselves to the distinctiveness of the Lord’s day and hold ourselves ready for what may occur?
JT Just so. The Lord Himself said, “Are there not twelve hours in the day?” and I think the Lord’s day has twelve hours, and it ought to be given to the service of God, if possible. It ought to be given to the service of God and I think the service of God will be more precious to us than it has been, or is.
PHH Is there a danger of these things going on and our not discerning them? Going back to the voice in Acts 9, it says that Saul heard the voice and apparently he retained the voice before his mind, whereas the others heard a voice in a general way but it meant nothing to them. Does that raise the question again of our sensitiveness in these matters?
JT Just so. In chapter 22, Paul says “as I was praying in the temple, that I became in ecstasy, and saw him saying to me, Make haste and go quickly out of Jerusalem, for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me”. That was evidently a corporeal appearing, though a mysterious thing. And then again we have in Mark 16 that He appeared “in another form”, after He rose. It does not say what the form was, but it was [p. 372] another one.
JTJr In Luke 24 it says He disappeared from the two at Emmaus. Would that awaken in them concern as to what happened?
JT Quite so.
Ques Does not Paul refer touchingly to his personal interview with the Lord when he says, “Have I not seen Jesus our Lord”? Was not that a word to the Corinthians?
JT That would be a literal transaction. I suppose these appearings must have been intended to implement the services and the work of the apostles, and others that followed after them.
PHH In our day, does not the Spirit help us to prepare for such appearings and manifestations?
JT I do not think we sufficiently make use of the Spirit, speaking reverently; there is a lot of contention on the point. But why not make use of Him? Scriptures show that Peter, for instance, in the 10th chapter here, spoke to the Spirit. Why not use the Spirit in that sense, and commune with Him even in the quiet hours, or at any time, why not commune with the Spirit? It tends greatly to enhance our spirituality to do that.
PHH It says of Simeon in Luke 2 that he had had a communication directly from the Spirit.
JT Just so.
Rem It says of Peter that as he “continued pondering over the vision, the Spirit said to him ...” as though it may involve a certain continuance in abstraction.
JT Just so. What an experience; going up on the house-top and then being hungry. It may be there is something in that, that hunger may help anything of this kind, and perhaps fasting is not taken on as it should be, because the Lord says “this kind does not go out but by prayer and fasting”. Now why is there not any fasting? As far as I know there is hardly any; we do not hear of [p. 373] it much and yet in the early days there was a great deal of it.
PHH Do you take that to mean literal fasting?
JT I do. It tends to power. Abstraction from ordinary affairs in fasting. It tends to power.
CBS Does that bring about the spiritual impressions in the soul that result in change?
JT Just so.
Rem I think you once told us of an actual situation of great difficulty in which you gained power in fasting.
JT Yes, in regard to the conflict as to eternal life, because there was great opposition in New York at the time and we got together in prayer and fasting, quite a few of us, and we were helped by it.
Rem So that fasting itself is not alone sufficient, it is what is being done in the time that would have been occupied with the legitimate things of life.
JT Yes, quite so.
ECM Is your thought that fasting gives the Spirit greater scope to operate in us?
JT It does, I am certain. Something in the denial of mere physical things we would wish to do, and would deny ourselves of, God honours that. It says expressly, “This kind does not go out but by prayer and fasting”, and that refers to lunacy.
JP In chapter 13 when the Spirit of God says “Separate me now Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them” it says “they were ministering to the Lord and fasting”. That seems to be somewhat habitual, and then again it says, “Then, having fasted”, as though that was something specific.
JT That is an excellent illustration of what we are talking about.
Rem Perhaps you would say something about the vessel that came down out of heaven like a [p. 374] sheet.
JT I think we ought to say something about that because it is remarkable too that it should happen. It took place thrice and the vessel was straightway taken up into heaven. It was held by four corners, so that evidently it was a typical thing, held up, we might say, in a mysterious way, and taken up into heaven, and apparently the thing must be there. There must be some allusion to the assembly, in the sense in which it is said to come down from God out of heaven. The assembly has to come down from God out of heaven, having the glory of God. It, therefore, refers to what we were saying, heaven’s right to come down, or go up, or stay up. All this enters into the rights of God in what He is doing, in heaven.
JTJr Does the voice coming the second time suggest that there is the need of stressing the matter again?
JT It is to convey a permanent idea. Therefore the sheet must refer to something that is to remain permanently in heaven, and, of course, that points to what we are looking for. We are looking for the Lord Himself to come down from heaven and the assembly to go up and to stay up, because the assembly stays up. It comes down from God out of heaven, as if it was indigenous to heaven; the assembly is indigenous to heaven, it does not belong to the earth at all.
PHH Would that be confirmed by the word ‘descending’? It says “He beholds the heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending”. It is almost as if it were its own act.
JT Just so.
HH I would like to underline what you said that the assembly is indigenous to heaven.
JT Quite so, because it is a heavenly vessel. That is what is meant in the sheet, it is a vessel really. The vessel comes down three times and goes [p. 375] up and stays there. That is to say heaven has a right to do those things.
RWS So the expanse, and whatever power the enemy might have in it, is cancelled out, is it not, with heaven coming in in this way?
JT Quite. That is another word that ought to be kept in mind, because God called the expanse “Heavens”, but it was an expanse. That is to say, it alludes to the sphere of divine operations and that there is plenty of room for them. That room is extended to earth, too, in our service, plenty of room.
Ques Does the scripture in Ephesians “raised us up together, and has made us sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus” link on with what you are saying?
JT Very good. He “has raised us up together, and has made us sit down together”. That is remarkable, we are not standing, as Stephen saw the Son of man standing, but we are made to sit down together, which is remarkable and points to privilege and distinction given to us.
PHH What do you think Peter’s difficulty was? He is told to rise, slay and eat, and apparently three times he had a difficulty about it. Does it point to the fact that we may have abstract truth in our minds, and yet not clothe the brethren with it?
JT Quite so. I think he was suffering from legality, Jewish legality. It is a common thing among Christians. Many questions arise as to things that ought to be done and yet the brethren have a real difficulty, and things are hindered by legal difficulties.
Rem The fact that Peter had this ecstasy and saw this vision was a proof that heaven was unwilling for him to be out of what was coming in in Paul. Do you think we are conscious of the Lord’s insistence with us, and His bringing us into what He [p. 376] is doing? Peter would be likely to connect the thoughts of the assembly with what belonged to the remnant of Israel, whereas what was coming in with Paul was foreshadowed in this vision, and it showed heaven’s insistence in bringing Peter into it.
JT Quite so. We can see in this first chapter here that that sort of thing could easily become common amongst the early Christians. It says in verse 6, “They therefore, being come together, asked him saying Lord, is it at this time that thou restorest the kingdom to Israel?” — you see how they are pre-occupied with that — “And he said to them, It is not yours to know times or seasons, which the Father has placed in his own authority; but ye will receive power, the Holy Spirit having come upon you, and ye shall be my witnesses”, and so forth. So that He indicates clearly how they are to be saved from mere legality, Jewish legality, because the Father has sovereign rights in all these matters.
JCT It was rather unlikely material, was it not? “Quadrupeds and creeping things of the earth”. Would that test us?
JT Just so. The truth is that it refers to gentiles and how the Jews regarded gentiles. That is what is meant by these quadrupeds.
Rem In Revelation 21 in connection with the millennium, the city is said to come down out of heaven, and then in verse 2, in connection with the eternal state, is it presented as a characteristic idea? God has in heaven what will serve His purpose, either to be up there or to come down.
JT Quite so, very good.