READINGS IN MATTHEW'S GOSPEL (12)
READINGS IN MATTHEW’S GOSPEL (12)
JT It is thought that we should go through with our subject by reading this last chapter. It is needed to complete the subject as affording the truth of the resurrection. The ascension is not recorded in this book, which has to be noted and understood. There is a certain severity in the instruction in the gospel of Matthew, beginning, as it does, with forty-two generations of previous history; now it is thought we should be able to look together at the facts of the resurrection. It is evident that the Spirit of God intended to stress the power of the resurrection in the book, in order to give effect to the truth of the assembly.
PHH Would you say another word about severity, please.
JT I do not know that I could deal with it lengthily, but it struck me that the word is suitable to use, divine severity, of course. There are many instances in the New Testament of severity which the Lord used in His language, and this gospel affords much of them.
Ques Is that feature present here in the angel? “His look was as lightning, and his clothing white as snow. And for fear of him the guards trembled and became as dead men”.
JT Just so.
Ques Is it comforting to think that the same angel that causes the guards to tremble and be as dead men, is the one who says to the women, “Fear not ye”?
JT Quite so. They were to be encouraged not to fear. It says, “behold, there was a great earthquake”, and no doubt that was the cause of the fear; “for an angel of the Lord, descending out of [p. 314] heaven, came and rolled away the stone and sat upon it”. It is a remarkable evidence of authority and power. He “came and rolled away the stone and sat upon it”. Remarkable evidence that he was a commissioned person! We have said that the ascension is not mentioned, but here we have the angel descending out of heaven, so that it is the very opposite of ascension. There is power too and, of course, that is needed in view of the fact that the earth is in mind.
AJG Was his action in rolling away the stone intended to establish the fact of the resurrection?
JT I suppose so. There was evidence that there was power for it. But we should be glad to hear what you have to say.
AJG I am inquiring because you have stressed resurrection, and I was hoping you would say what is the bearing of it in relation to the assembly.
JT I thought it would be well to notice the fact that the angel has to do with the earth and all that has to be encountered in an earthly position, because it goes on to say, “for fear of him the guards trembled and became as dead men. And the angel answering said to the women, Fear not ye” — the ye is emphatic, that is to say, you are not to fear; whatever happens, you are not to fear — “for I know that ye seek Jesus the crucified one. He is not here, for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay”. And then again, “And go quickly and say to his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and behold, he goes before you into Galilee, there shall ye see him. Behold, I have told you”. So there is clear evidence of authority in the angel here; and that raises the question of angelic service, because clearly angels were created before men. Humanity is more recent in the creation than angels, but they are said to be “ministering spirits,
[p. 315] sent out for service on account of those who shall inherit salvation”.
Ques Does the expression, “Behold, I have told you”, not only suggest authority, but authority not to be reasoned or argued against?
JT Quite so. “Behold, I have told you”. He is a commissioned person, as the Lord Himself was.
AB Would the angel rolling the stone away be the way that God would defeat the opposition against Christ? They sealed the stone, but the stone is rolled away.
JT There is no possibility of overcoming this commissioned person; it is a divine commission, and God is behind all that. We are thus to be assured of the position of the assembly, and how secure it is, and how we may rely on God supporting us at all times; so that we are not to be afraid.
Ques You were linking this morning the thought of resurrection with redemption. Could you say another word about that?
JT You must have resurrection in order that the assembly should be supported. The idea of resurrection is in the assembly. He “has raised us up together, and has made us sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus”, and again we have in Colossians a similar thought as to resurrection. It says of the women in the last chapter of Mark that they “went out, and fled from the sepulchre. And trembling and excessive amazement possessed them, and they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid. Now when He had risen very early, the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary of Magdala, out of whom he had cast seven demons. She went and brought word to those that had been with him, who were grieving and weeping. And when these heard that he was alive and had been seen of her, they disbelieved it. And after these [p. 316] things he was manifested in another form”. That is to say, there is great evidence of unbelief in Mark; but here we have, “And for fear of him the guards trembled and became as dead men. And the angel answering said to the women, Fear not ye, for I know that ye seek Jesus the crucified one. He is not here, for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay”. I thought it would be well to call attention to Mark as to the thought of unbelief of the resurrection at the outset. The resurrection was denied at Corinth, so that Paul says: “How say some among you that there is not a resurrection of those that are dead? ... but if Christ is not raised, then indeed vain is our preaching, and vain also your faith ... ye are yet in your sins”.
JMcK Does the thought of demonstration come into this chapter, not only the power but the demonstration of the matter? I was thinking of the matter of the stone rolled away and the angel sitting upon it. There is clear demonstration from heaven of what has transpired, and the power to carry things forward.
JT Just so. That is what is stressed, the power in resurrection. “If Christ is not raised ... vain also your faith ... ye are yet in your sins”. And that, of course, came up at Corinth, showing that this evidence of unbelief came out among the gentiles, and the unbelief that we find in our hearts is almost constant from time to time, but we have full evidence of what is true and right in the Scriptures.
EAL In John 20 we have, “Then entered in therefore the other disciple also who came first to the tomb, and he saw and believed; for they had not yet known the scripture, that he must rise from among the dead”. Is the rolling away of the stone just God’s mercy to them, that they should believe? The stone did not need to be rolled away for the Lord to rise from the dead.
[p. 317] JT It was a testimony to the power, that the power was there on their behalf, and there is plenty of that sort of thing in testimony amongst us at all times.
HH Mr. Pellatt once stated, in relation to this incident, What are you going to do with the Roman Empire now, if an angel sits on the stone that has been put there?
JT Well, it is not what we are going to do; it is what God will do, and the Roman Empire still exists in principle, for the laws of the Roman Empire have come down to us, both in America and in the British Empire generally and in Europe.
Ques Is it very encouraging that in spite of our unbelief the Lord goes on with us? When He reproached them for their unbelief in Mark, He immediately says, “Go into all the world”.
PHH Will you say something about the rising. Sometimes it is said in the Scripture, as here, “He is risen”, as if it were His own act. In another place it says, “Christ has been raised up from among the dead by the glory of the Father”. Is it His own act in this setting? “He is not here, for he is risen”.
JT It is a simple statement of fact, but the power behind it is from heaven. An angel of God came down from heaven. But perhaps you will say more.
PHH I was thinking, for instance, of the Lord’s word in John’s gospel, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up”. It is viewed there as His own action. In other cases, as, for instance, in Romans 6, He is raised from the dead by the glory of the Father.
JT It is a question there of divine Persons acting, and the power that is available. Sometimes you cannot be sure who the divine Person may be, but usually we can find out which divine Person does a thing or says a thing. So that it seems to be that [p. 318] the principle behind all Scripture is faith, but then what is behind faith is power. In Romans 10, for instance, we get, “So faith then is by a report, but the report by God’s word”. So that there is hearing, but then there must be power in the sense of all that God is doing to assert and to confirm the truth of His purposes, and He is active here for the accomplishment of all His designs and thoughts.
AJG So is your thought that this statement, “He is risen”, is simply the statement of fact that He was risen from the dead, in order to assure the disciples that power was on their behalf to carry through to the end, without regard to whether the Lord raised Himself or whether the Father raised Him?
JT Quite so. I think that is good. It just confirms what I have been thinking.
Ques Would Matthew 27: 63 help in that connection? When the chief priests came to Pilate, they say that He said, “After three days I arise”. Does that confirm the fact that sometimes the resurrection is presented as His own act?
JT Quite so. So it is. He says it definitely in the 2nd chapter of John.
ECM Why is it the women are prominent at the sepulchre at the resurrection?
JT Well, we have spoken of the women in chapter 26, and now here the Spirit brings in Mary Magdalene. Mary Magdalene is particularly important at the resurrection, especially because she carried the message from the Lord to the disciples as to His going into heaven. She becomes a messenger to carry through the divine thoughts as to Christ risen and the effect of His resurrection, because John 20 is to bring out the full thought of the resurrection and the ascension. “I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God”. The idea of the ascension is peculiarly stressed in [p. 319] John, but it is not even mentioned here in Matthew. In Matthew it does not say the Lord went to heaven; it just stresses the resurrection. Then as to the women, the same thing is evident, as in chapter 26, that love was behind it all, so that we have quite a little said about them. It says, “And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord, descending out of heaven, came and rolled away the stone and sat upon it. And his look was as lightning, and his clothing white as snow. And for fear of him the guards trembled and became as dead men. And the angel answering said to the women, Fear not ye”, that is, the women were not to fear, the Lord was specially concerned about them, “for I know that ye seek Jesus the crucified one. He is not here, for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. And go quickly and say to his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and behold, he goes before you into Galilee, there shall ye see him. Behold, I have told you. And going out quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy”, a remarkable combination, fear and great joy, “they ran”, women running is remarkable, “to bring his disciples word. And as they went to bring his disciples word, behold also, Jesus met them, saying, Hail! And they coming up took him by the feet”, a remarkable thing too, because it would hinder Him walking, “and did him homage. Then Jesus says to them, Fear not; go, bring word to my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there they shall see me”.
ETS It is very encouraging to the sisters that these women should have had a special interview with the Lord.
JT I think it is a word for our sisters. I have been trying, since the beginning of these meetings, to bring in something that would help the sisters, and I think we have it here, and the Lord is showing that they are particularly in His mind. I believe [p. 320] the brethren have done right to open the door to the sisters to these special three-day meetings.
PL Are they honoured as being the first witnesses to this glorious event?
JT Quite so. It was a glorious event, and they are the witnesses to it.
Ques Were they not seeking Jesus, the crucified One? Was not that their special honour at that time?
JT Well, they were somewhat defective, and I had thought of mentioning that we have noticed several times as we have gone through this gospel, the evidences of the want of faith. “O thou of little faith”, the Lord says to Peter.
Ques Why do you think the angel refers to Jesus as “the crucified one”?
JT I suppose it would be to set out the thought of suffering, at the outset of the truth of the assembly. It is a time of suffering. “To you has been given, as regards Christ, not only the believing on him but the suffering for him also”, Philippians 1: 29.
WSS Is there not a note of triumph in the words, “Come, see the place were the Lord lay”? In Mark’s gospel it is, “Behold the place where they had put him”, but “where the Lord lay” is the word here.
JT “Where the Lord lay”. It is very touching.
WSS I was thinking too of His lordly power in harmony with the other evidences of power.
JT Lordly power — quite so; authority vested in lordship. The Lord Jesus is the only One made Lord. The Father is called Lord, and the Spirit is called Lord, but the Lord Jesus is the only One made Lord. He is made “Lord and Christ” (Acts 2: 36) and that is a very important matter, too.
JSE And does that stand immediately over against the crucifixion in Acts 2?
JT Quite so.
AJG [p. 321] Is it not striking that in all the early preachings in the Acts, the apostle always pointed out that it was the One who had been crucified that they were to believe in?
JT That is to say, crucifixion is not simply the killing, but it brings out the peculiar hostility that was in the heart of man at the time that the Lord Jesus was put to death.
Ques Are we not reminded of Paul’s bringing in the thought of the cross at the beginning of the epistle to the Corinthians? I was just thinking how completely the wisdom of this world was set aside in the cross of Christ. Burial is brought in much later in the epistle, but the cross is insisted upon right at the start.
JT Very good.
Ques Would you say something as to angelic help for our minds? The angel said, “I know that ye seek Jesus the crucified one”. There was a defective thought in their minds, which he knew, and he was helping them in it.
JT Well now, it is very remarkable that angels are said to have so much knowledge, and apparently it is just given to them specially, as augmenting the divine system, the divine workmanship. Angels are specially instructed, but they have not got the full instruction that those who form the assembly have, because we precede all families in the sense of light and instruction and distinction. The assembly has the first place in all the families in the universe.
PL Have they not special instruction for a special mission, but the assembly has the mind of Christ?
JT Just so. “We have the mind of Christ”. It is that kind of a mind. We have it, it says in 1 Corinthians.
RWS An angel in Revelation placed his right foot on the sea and his left foot on the land. Would [p. 322] that give us the assurance today that from the public side assembly service is to go on until the end?
JT I would say that. Assembly service is to go on to the end; but I want to know just what you mean by the end.
RWS Well, I mean until the rapture. Some of us may be disturbed about conditions which occur in the world publicly, such as war clouds, but are we not reassured that the public side and the inward side will be maintained until the rapture?
JT Well, just so, but the end comes later than that. Daniel takes up what the end is to be before the introduction of eternal conditions. I wanted just to get your mind as to the end, and what else you had in mind too, because this is of very great importance that we are dealing with, as to the practical working out of the truth.
RWS In my mind, I was going on only until the saints are raptured, but would you say something about what follows and the end.
JT It says in 1 Corinthians 15 “Then cometh the end”, and in Daniel we have “Do thou go thy way until the end”.
WC In that statement, “Do thou go thy way”, is the idea that we are to go on assured of the end?
JT Yes, and the rapture is before that; the coming of the Lord for us.
Ques Had you any thought of referring to 1 Corinthians 15, “Then the end, when he gives up the kingdom to him who is God and Father”?
JT That confirms all that we have said. It is the New Testament, and we have referred to the Old Testament, because it is the same idea.
EuR 1 Corinthians 15 seems to link on with our chapter, because of the way the burial of the Lord Jesus is referred to at the beginning of it, and [p. 323] then the great triumph of the resurrection, all leading forward to that great end.
JT Quite so. I would say that fully.
AB Would the thought of “the completion of the age” be similar in the last verse of this chapter?
JT Just so. That is just what it is, “until the completion of the age”. That word age has its own significance. It is not the coming of the Lord for the saints; it goes further than that, it goes into millennial conditions. It is not simply that the Lord comes for us, but there are other things to take place too, towards the end, to complete the thought of “the completion of the age”.
HH Is all that viewed in connection with the earth?
JT We have to think of what is in heaven too, because the Lord comes out of heaven; but I do not know just what you mean.
HH I was thinking of “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptising them to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit”. All that is what takes place on the resurrection platform. It does not add ascension, does it?
JT It does not add ascension, but that does not in any way set aside what is said in John, or in Mark, or in Revelation.
PHH Referring to the matter of the angels again for a moment, there is a remarkable word in 1 Corinthians 11 about the woman. “Therefore ought the woman to have authority on her head, on account of the angels”. What is exactly the bearing of bringing in the angels there?
JT I suppose it is that they are the custodians of God’s operations, and that the women are to be subdued and in every way subject. They are to have authority on the head, because of the angels, so that they should be in every way suitable in view [p. 324] of the order of God in the creation, and this should work out in the assembly.
AJG In 1 Peter 1 we read, “which angels desire to look into”, as though angels have a great interest in all that God is doing in the assembly.
JT That is just what I would think. Evidently they are onlookers, but they have great honour. At the same time they are ministers; they are our ministers. They are not heirs of salvation, as we are. So that the saints of the assembly have great distinction.
AH Are angels involved in Ephesians 3: “The mystery hidden throughout the ages in God, who has created all things, in order that now to the principalities and authorities in the heavenlies might be made known through the assembly the all-various wisdom of God”?
JT That only confirms all that we have said, as to the great place that the assembly has. Light comes to angels, and all authorities, through the assembly; all families get light through the assembly. Wonderful, I think! We should take it to heart and rejoice in it, because we are now coming to the end of Matthew, which stresses the resurrection, not the ascension but the resurrection. It implies the unqualified power of God.
MBB Does God give to the women a dual testimony to resurrection, first, in an angelic way, and then personally by the Lord Jesus? In verse 7 it speaks of the angelic testimony, and in verse 9 the Lord Himself speaks to the sisters.
JT Just so.
SSM Why is it that they were to go into Galilee? It does not say that the Lord led them there, but it says, when they were there, “Jesus coming up spoke to them”.
JT I suppose it was to test their faith. “Some doubted”, it says. I suppose it would bring out [p. 325] what faith there was and how the work of God had taken effect in them, and that it should be brought out. So He says, “Fear not; go, bring word to my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there they shall see me”. And then it says, in verse 16, “The eleven disciples went into Galilee to [p. 328] the mountain which Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they did homage to him: but some doubted”. I suppose the Lord would bring out the faith, the work of God that had been effected in them, and evidently it was needed to do that, because some of them were doubting. So that everything now that is coming before us is to help us. It is not now them, but us. We are the ones that are to be helped.
PHH Does that open up the question of reaching the Lord where He is at any time, in order to have power? In Luke’s gospel He told them to stay where they were, but in Matthew’s gospel He tells them to go to Galilee. I was wondering whether this great thought of power means that we must reach the Lord in order to bring Him into a situation, if it is a question of ministry, for instance.
JT Well, but you pray. You do not have to reach the Lord physically, to ask Him to come and do things for us.
PHH Would this allow for the exercise of reaching Him in prayer?
JT That is good. You add the words “in prayer”, and I think it is very good to think of that, because He will do anything for us, for the saints.
Ques Is not power all the more necessary because of the systematised error that is suggested in the paragraph from verses 11 - 15, which resulted in a lie being current to this day?
JT I think it is just what we were saying already, as to a certain system that we have often [p. 326] alluded to, for that is where the lie is really located. It has come into Christianity, with great pretension. The work of the devil, as a liar, is in that system.
Ques Is that why it is Galilee and not Jerusalem?
JT Just so. It is reproach, reproach is attached to Galilee.
Ques What is the bearing of the word quickly in regard to all this? The angel says “go quickly”, and then it says “going out quickly ... they ran”.
JT Some of us are slow, and negligent or careless too, but of themselves they went quickly, and they ran, accentuating their speed. I think it is a good thing to have in our minds that things are to be done quickly.
VCL Would you say a word as to why every one in this chapter receives a commission and whether that has a bearing today? The angel is commissioned, the sisters are commissioned, and the disciples are commissioned.
JT That is good. The Lord is ready to give a commission to anyone who is capable of taking it. He will take on anyone who is capable of doing things, and carrying out the work of God. The Lord is ready to give a commission, which involves giving him power to do it. The real difficulty is that there are not enough of that kind; there is too much slothfulness and carelessness in the service of God.
PL “Abounding always in the work of the Lord”.
JT Yes, “knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord”.
LHBP Would you say that the sisters with their superior sensibilities are particularly fitted to write the hymns referred to this morning?
JT Well, there are very good hymns written by sisters, but the best hymns we have are Mr. Darby’s. That is without question. At the same time, sisters [p. 327] can well count on the Lord to help them, if they want to write hymns.
Ques Is there not some particular inference in the fact that the last paragraph is specific to the eleven disciples?
JT It is a broken number too. Do you mean that?
Rem Yes. But it was not a commission to all and sundry, it was to the eleven disciples. Although it was a broken position, I thought it left room for what was specific by way of commission.
JT Well, indeed. Quite so. They carried it out, even if they had a broken number. Sometimes a broken number is a humbling and distressing number, but they were not distressed. They were humbled, no doubt, but they were not distressed. “But the eleven disciples went into Galilee to the mountain which Jesus had appointed them”. They were diligent too, in carrying out what He had appointed. “And when they saw him, they did homage to him” — that is, they worshipped Him — “but some doubted”.
EuR In verse 10 He designates them “my brethren”. Would that involve dignity although in the place of reproach?
JT Oh! I think so. I think it would involve dignity. It is “my brethren”, not ‘the brethren’ but “my brethren”, and that is more dignified, and more glorious too.
Ques The mountain position seems to remain. They do not seem to come down. The Lord says, “I am with you” there. Does that show the elevated level on which the testimony is to be maintained?
JT Just so. I think it will be noticed that there are seven mountains mentioned in the book; so that the idea is one of elevation, and it stays till the very end.
PHH “The mountain which Jesus had appointed them”. Does that open up the way for the Lord’s commandments to be maintained, even in reproach? Would that help us to go into Corinthians, for instance, in our assembly position?
JT Quite so, and too the sense of suffering often that goes with it. The commandments sometimes involve suffering, and it is well to face that too.
AJG Does the fact that the Lord says “There they shall see me” involve that we are to gain an apprehension of the Lord as with us in this testimonial position?
JT Quite so. He has appointed the place, He means that there should be some suitable effect of the acceptance of it.
Ques Is there not a touch of dignity about the thought of appointed? It is not merely a mountain that is commanded, but a mountain that was appointed. It seems to suggest a suitable place.
JT Quite so. We all know, in a military sense, how important positions are, and that is the idea here, so that the Lord directs to certain positions. The position is Galilee, which implies reproach.
Ques It says that “some doubted”. Having in mind the footnote: ‘Or were at a loss [what to think], hesitated’, would that be the opposite to the quick movement of these women and would work to the retarding of our hearts in the necessary rapid learning?
JT Just so. There are many like that. We wonder why it should be, so much teaching among the Lord’s people and yet such poor understanding of the truth. We often speak about persons who are quick learners, but quick learners are apt to be inaccurate learners, apt to be. At the same time there is such a thing as [p. 329] quick learning.
PHH Is not this position in itself very encouraging, referring to what you said earlier as to the full furnishings here? It is a broken position outwardly, but the Lord Himself is there and His commandments and all power.
JT That is just our own position now, here today. It is broken, for all the brethren are not with us, but we go on nevertheless. I think it is a great matter to go on in spite of a broken position.
WC Would the seven mountains merge into the one great thought of “the mountain of God” in Exodus 3?
JT I think it is a general idea of elevation in Matthew.
HH The thought of power comes in. I was thinking not only of the power that raised Christ from the dead, which has been said to be the greatest display of God’s power, but it says, “All power has been given me in heaven and upon earth”, so that there is support right on to the end.
JT Just so. I suppose the idea of “in heaven and upon earth”, is just to bring out that it is general, and that the saints should know it. They should understand that it is capable of being known.
HH Do you not think it will be more obvious as we go on to the end? With the enemy so busy, shall we not need to be more conscious of this power?
JT That may be so, but I am not so sure that things will increase very much. I think we are still in limitations, but I never like to use the word ‘remnant’ to anything attached to the assembly. The whole idea is before us, in what we have even today. We can speak of things as a whole, without any hesitation.
GCS “Jerusalem! — mountains are round about her, and Jehovah is round about his people”. “Behold, I am with you all the days”. Would that fit [p. 330] in?
JT Very good. That is just what we are talking about. “Behold, I am with you all the days, until the completion of the age”.
GCS Would that fit in with “Emmanuel ... ‘God with us’” of chapter 1?
JT Just so.
Ques Could a word be said with regard to the chief priests ‘buying off’ the soldiers? Are we to learn from that that there is organised opposition by the religious elements in the world as allied with the political?
JT We have just spoken about that a few minutes ago. Verses 12 to the end of verse 14, refer to a certain system which is characterised, from the very beginning, with lying and deceitfulness, and it still exists. I always hesitate to mention it, because the enemy might make use of the information, but I am sure it is true. This particular system is characterised by these verses; that is to say, deceitfulness and satanic lying.
Ques Are these verses an illustration of the working of the gates of hades, the fact that they took counsel and deliberated about it together?
JT Quite so; the gates of hades. The gates are the places of administration, but they might be administering lies or telling untruthfulness.
Rem But the truth makes its way in spite of it all.
JT Just so; that is the point of the gospels and the epistles. The truth is in the Scriptures. They are the Scriptures of truth.
Ques Would you say something about the power to make disciples? After the Lord has said “All power has been given me in heaven and upon earth”, He says, “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations”. I was wondering whether there would be divinely given power in the Spirit to produce disciples through the instruction of the truth. It [p. 331] says of Paul and Barnabas in Acts 14 that they made disciples.
JT I think what you say is right. I think too what has been said about untruthfulness or lying is also right and very important to observe. The system we have been talking about is modifying itself and pretending to be sympathetic to Protestantism, but it is deceit and an endeavour to meet the real difficulty, that communism is spreading too fast for them.
Ques Does Galilee answer to Gilgal? Joshua 5 speaks of circumcision by stone knives and the reproach of Egypt being rolled away. Then the place was called Gilgal to this day, and then the passover was eaten there.
AJG The reproach of Egypt is not the same thing as the reproach of the name of Christ with which we are to be identified, is it? The reproach of Egypt is something we have to get rid of, but the reproach of Christ is something we have to embrace.
JT Yes, quite so. There is glory in it.
Rem “Not only the believing on him but the suffering for him also”.
JT That is right. Just so.
PHH How does the economy stand here? What is the setting of it — “the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit”?
JT Well, you could not reverse the order, could you?
PHH No. I think we see that.
JT That is one thing to help us, for you cannot reverse this order. The Father has the first place, and the Son has the second place, and the Spirit has the third place. That is, it is the order of one, two, three. It is a very wonderful thing, that the divine Persons are pleased to take up this attitude in order to instruct us.
AJG [p. 332] Do you mean that the Father is the supreme thought, and that the Son and the Spirit are to be recognised as serving mediatorially in relation to it?
JT Just so. Mediatorially is the word. The Spirit and the Son are pleased to take that up, and They do it, of course, perfectly, and They are doing it because of the assembly. Everything has the assembly in mind just now.
JTJr Would the Lord Jesus being made Lord involve that everything is under His hands and that He is the great Administrator of everything?
JT That is said definitely in John 3. “The Father ... has given all things to be in his hand”. But, at the same time, in the order of one, two, three, the Father is first, the Father is before Him, and so He says Himself, “My Father is greater than I”.
JTJr I was thinking of the reference in verse 18 of our chapter. He says, “All power has been given me”. That is, what has been given to Him is mediatorial, involving His lordship.
JT Well, just so. It is mediatorial, but still the Father is before and the Father has power too, you know. You cannot say therefore that the Father has not a part in the power, because He has, and certain references throughout this gospel speak of that. It says, “Be ye therefore perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect”.
HH How many divine Persons are in this thought of what is mediatorial?
JT Two. Two Persons.
HH You include the Holy Spirit in that?
JT Certainly.
HH You do not include the Father?
JT No.
Ques Is that not proved in 1 Corinthians 15, “For he has put all things in subjection under his [p. 333] feet. But when he says that all things are put in subjection, it is evident that it is except him who put all things in subjection to him”.
JT Good. That helps. The Father is excepted there. I mean the Father is supreme. At the same time, what existed before what we call the economy, into which They have now come, is wonderful and mysterious. We have to recognise there is something beyond our knowledge, and God has decreed that it should be so. We do not know everything.
PHH When it says in Romans 11: 36, “of him, and through him”, would the “through him” involve Christ and the Spirit?
JT “Through”? Yes.
PHH That is, it is God who has done it all, but He has done it by way of Christ and the Spirit?
JT Very good. I think it is a sort of doxology, is it not?
PHH Yes. Romans 11: 33, “O depth of riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable his judgments, and untraceable his ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counsellor? or who has first given to him, and it shall be rendered to him? For of him, and through him, and for him are all things: to him be glory for ever. Amen”.
JT Just so. Well, that is God Himself. So that all mediatorial actions are not simply attributable to the Son and the Spirit, although it might seem so, but the Father too, takes on things of Himself.
JPH Would you say something as to “the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit”. It is one name, but there are three Persons involved. I was wondering about the perfect oneness that exists in the Godhead, though there are three Persons. I was wondering if you [p. 334] would say something about it — one name, one fame and so on.
JT A very good question. I am glad you asked it, because it stresses the idea that God is One. It says in 1 Timothy 2: “God is one, and the mediator of God and men one, the man Christ Jesus”. It is one name, and it involves the infinite unity in the Godhead. We must not speak of it as we would speak of ordinary things, or ordinary unity; it is infinite. We cannot compass it, it is just beyond us, and we bow to that, and it is our wisdom to do so. God is telling us all we should know, but there are things that we do not know, which He reserves to Himself.
JPH Is that all confirmed by the Greek word translated “to” in Matthew 28: 19, “Make disciples of all the nations, baptising them to the name of Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit”, which directs the mind to the point to be reached. Are we to come to an understanding by the Spirit of the great matter that is before us in this verse?
JT Quite so. It is the Deity included in the three Persons. Just as I was saying, we cannot get around it, we cannot understand it. God gives us to know that it is His own matter. He gives us to know too that He is saying all that is necessary to us.
Ques Does not the oft-repeated word ‘inscrutable’ really cover it?
JT That is right.
EAL When we speak of the thought of unity with regard to divine Persons, we cannot think of any possibility of disunity.
JT Well, quite so. There is no possibility of disunity in Them. Everything is infinitely perfect.
EuR Would oneness be a better word than unity?
JT I think [p. 335] it would.
EuR It has been said we may distinguish but we cannot separate.
JT Well, that is quite good.
JSE Is there something very attractive and touching in the fact that all this is committed to persons in the surroundings of the appointed mountain?
JT Good. That is the truth clearly.
JSE And does not this, by extension, throw some light for us on the inability of persons not accepting the reproach of Christ to come at the truth?
JT I would say that. They cannot come into the truth; and yet how many there are in that position, myriads who have no thought of coming into the truth. But we thank God that we are in it. It is what God has brought about.