READINGS ON FIRST THESSALONIANS (2)
READINGS ON FIRST THESSALONIANS (2)
JT Referring again to the matter of youthfulness indicated in this epistle, it might be remarked that the word children is used in different senses, not only here, but in John’s epistles. We have stressed the idea of youthfulness and the idea of children, but the first sense is that the word children alludes to the saints generally irrespective of age or growth, whereas on the other hand, the word little children in John’s epistle refers to growth. It corresponds a good deal with what we have in this epistle. I mention it because some of us may carry away the thought that ‘children’ is used only of youthful persons, whereas the word sometimes conveys the thought of children generally; that is, God’s children. So we have in John’s epistle, “See what love the Father has given to us, that we should be called the children of God”, 1 John 3: 1. That refers to the saints generally. It is not a question of youthfulness but rather derivation. On the other hand, in that same epistle we have the idea of little children, first the idea of children in the general sense, and then we have fathers, and young men and little children. The latter alludes to youthfulness, to growth and the like. It is important to keep this in mind so that we are not misled by any expressions as to the saints, because God is thinking of us in the main as His children. “See what love the Father has given to us”. It is the Father; He has bestowed this on us that we are to be called, not His sons, but His children. Then the little children refer to the saints who are young in the faith, which is the point in our first epistle, that the saints may be regarded as not developed very much in the truth. Of course, it is a humbling thing if we are not developed when we [p. 18] should be. At the same time Scripture makes a difference between the two things. The lack of growth, of course, is almost surely the evidence of a low state amongst the saints, a low condition. These meetings are in order to lead up to full growth, because that is what God intends. We cannot assume that we will be little children in heaven. We have to assume that we shall all be perfect in heaven, complete.
RWS In 1 John 2 the reference to the unction is in the paragraph which begins, “Little children, it is the last hour”. Then it says in verse 20, “And ye have the unction from the holy one, and ye know all things”. Again in verse 27, “But as the same unction teaches you as to all things, and is true and is not a lie, and even as it has taught you, ye shall abide in him”. Does the fresh ministry as to the Person of the Spirit promote greater growth in all of us and especially the young?
JT The little children are to become full grown, and the Spirit, of course, is the power for that. So that we have in the first reference, chapter 2: 1, “My children, these things I write to you”; that refers to Christians generally. Then we have in verse 12, “I write to you, children”, which also refers to Christians generally. Then we have in verse 13, “I write to you, fathers”, that is full development, “because ye have known him that is from the beginning”. That is to say, they have gone the full length of the instruction, they are called fathers. Then again, “I write to you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one”. That is number two. Then again, “Little children”, if you look at the note you will see that this refers to growth. It is the third reference that refers to growth. It is a question now, therefore, of what is in our minds in I Thessalonians, because it is assumed in what has been proposed that the condition here is in need of development [p. 19] and growth, otherwise, without making any charges, there should not be so much difficulty locally. What is in one place may be true of every gathering represented here, that is to say, a low state, and the great point is self-judgment and making way for the Spirit of God. So that John says, “we know that if it is manifested we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is”. That is future, already we are the children of God.
RWS I want to see, and all of us, the wonderful favour of the day in which we are, with the precious ministry of the last few years especially, that we can move out of the little children state to full manhood.
JT Well, if we are to be in heaven, it must be so. We might say, how can it be so? we suppose the time is short. Well, it is a question then of what God can do, not what we think, but what He is capable of doing, so that God can do a great deal in a short time. Job says, “I know that thou canst do everything”, Job 42: 2.
FJF Why does the Lord call the disciples in John 21 by the term ‘little children’ when they were coming back to him on the lakeside. Verse 5, “Jesus therefore says to them, Children, have ye anything to eat?” The note refers to 1 John 2: 13, 18, ‘little children’. Why does he call them little children?
JT It is not in the text, not that I deny what you say, it is just children in the text. There is not much in that, only the idea of children. It is a diminutive thought undoubtedly in the Lord’s mind, but still it is children according to the text of the translator.
FJF I was thinking of what was said, that the time for learning is very short, and we have the Holy Spirit and the Lord to help us to move forward. I thought it was very encouraging that the Lord did not say any harsher word to them. They are still very precious to Him although they had wandered away.
JT You mean they went [p. 20] after Peter?
FJF Yes, would that cause disunity if some are straying away?
JT I do not think we should make very much of that, that they followed Peter. It was more a matter of a careless way of doing things, because the Lord knew where they were actually as to the state of their souls. The Lord afterwards went at length into Peter’s condition. “Simon ... lovest thou me more than these?” It is a question of love and Peter had assumed to love more than the others. The Lord corrects him in all that. As you say, it may refer to state, but at the same time I do not think it is a question of the general weakness of the saints at that time. It is more that they needed correction. Peter says “I go to fish” and the others say ‘we will go with thee’. The Lord brought them back and served a dinner for them. “Come and dine”, He said to them. They were viewed as men really; we do not say “Come and dine” to little children. They are viewed as intelligent.
AJG Would you say it was no reproach to the Thessalonians to be little children because they were only about three weeks old, but it was a reproach to the Corinthians to have to be addressed as babes?
JT There has to be the little children stage in a spiritual sense with those who are recently converted, but under proper care and influence and example and teaching they will grow normally. But with the Corinthians they had a great deal of the apostle’s ministry and yet when he wrote to them he had to tell them they were only babes in Christ, which was really a reproach to them.
FW “As a father his own children, we used to exhort each one of you, and comfort and testify, that ye should walk worthy of God”. The children need help.
JT Quite so, there is a need of care. The apostle acted as a father to them. He regarded them as his [p. 21] own children. That would mean what they were generally to him, that they were really converted by God and had some growth and so were capable of taking on the truth. The word is “For ye know yourselves, brethren, our entering in which we had to you”, and so on. So the position he is taking here is in keeping with what we have been saying, that they were young in the faith; but still, there was some growth in them and they needed a father’s care and he had shown, and was showing, that to them. At the same time there was definite formation or he could not have spoken to them as he does. He assumes they are intelligent. So he goes on to say, “For ye remember, brethren, our labour and toil: working night and day, not to be chargeable to any one of you, we have preached to you the glad tidings of God. Ye are witnesses, and God, how piously and righteously and blamelessly we have conducted ourselves with you that believe”, that is to say, they were characteristically believers. “As ye know how, as a father his own children, we used to exhort each one of you, and comfort and testify, that ye should walk worthy of God, who calls you to his own kingdom and glory”. Now I would submit to the brethren that what he says indicates a real, distinct formation in the Thessalonian saints and that they are ready for what the apostle has to say, and the whole epistle implies that there is the Spirit’s work and formation in these saints. That is a very great matter.
NB Would you tell us why the thought of God is so prominent in this chapter? There are twenty verses and the term God appears fourteen times.
JT I am glad you speak of that. It is not the way God is presented in Romans exactly. Here it is what God is; God is love, and that is what is spoken of in this epistle, as John speaks of Him. We have a great deal of the salvation of God in Romans. It is more to bring out the responsibility to which God [p. 22] holds His people, not simply that they are lovable, but that they are serviceable to God.
Rem In verse 10 he puts the Thessalonian saints on a very high level when it comes to witness.
JT It says, “Ye are witnesses, and God, how piously and righteously and blamelessly we have conducted ourselves with you that believe”. They are viewed as believers; they really have faith.
Rem I can see that. My point was that when it came to a question of witness the apostle says, “Ye are witnesses, and God”.
JT We are responsible to God; it is not the Father, but God as such. “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth”, that is the idea. It is the great Creator and the One to whom the whole creation is responsible.
AB Is Paul outstanding in that way in regard to his ministry? No one says like Paul, “God is my witness”, Romans 1: 9. He calls God into his own personal matters in relation to his service.
JT That is good.
WWM Would there be a difference in the thought of “a nurse ... her own children”; that is the gentleness and tenderness that would be shown to a young child, and the apostle’s speaking of himself as a father with his own children which refers more to the faithfulness that would be needed to maintain things?
JT Just so. They were of such value to him, “his own children”. In figure he uses the expression “a nurse”; it is a figure of his attitude toward the Thessalonians, that they began well. He regarded them as his own children, and therefore worthy of all the care he could confer on them.
JKP In chapter 1 you were calling attention to imitators of Paul and of the Lord. In this chapter [p. 23] it is the thought of imitators of the assembly. Does that suggest the further idea of growth you have in mind? I was thinking of their taking on the truth in a broad way in relation to other assemblies as stated in verse 14.
JT These brethren became imitators of the assemblies; it is plural, “the assemblies of God which are in Judaea”. Why should it be noted that they became imitators of the assemblies in Judaea? I take it to be a credit to them. They are not selfish or partisan or national in their feelings. It is a question of God, “the assemblies of God which are in Judaea”, that is, the general idea that is conveyed is, that they were imitating the assemblies in Judaea. Undoubtedly there were a great many meetings in Judea at that time. It was Judaea, that is where the Jews lived. So the Thessalonians were not national. Judea had been a great field of God’s works, and they imitated that. We might say we had better imitate Judaea because God has been working there and we get light there. We are so apt to be national.
FNW Does the influence of a father like Paul free the saints generally from national feeling?
JT I think it would, because Paul would be with God in all that was going on; he would not be national. Sometimes we are apt to be national. If a brother comes over from England, he might say things are done so and so in England, and it might not be right even. National feeling is the hardest thing to get rid of.
RWS It is linked on with suffering in verse 14, “for ye also have suffered the same things of your own countrymen as also they of the Jews”. The feature of suffering was set out in Judaea and how they acted would be an example to the Thessalonians. In our day would not the way the trade union matter has been met in Australia and other parts be an example to us here in the way we should meet it?
JT The word is “your own countrymen”; that ought to prevent mere national feeling; your own countrymen, the persons with whom you live, are apt to be persecutors. If they are apt to persecute you, then we are not likely to be national, and it is a very wholesome thing.
ABP Had they seen suffering in the apostle, and the spirit that marked him though having suffered?
JT He would be an example to them.
GH The epistle starts with “Paul and Silvanus and Timotheus to the assembly of Thessalonians”. Is that to bring out the good state among them?
JT Well, they were Thessalonians. It is important that we should take account of nations where God works. At Thessalonica there was a real work of God and Paul was used in it. They were Thessalonians and yet the apostle speaks of their own country. Another thing is they are said to be “in God the Father”. God is taking care of them, not simply that they are God’s, but the Father’s, “in God the Father”.
JK In 1 John 2, verse 13, a word is used which conveys that the state produced continues. Is that what should be seen in the saints today?
JT I think it would refer to what is local; as regards the work of God in America, there has been great improvement over fifty years, and I believe the explanation is largely that meetings such as these have been continued steadily during all this period. There is great encouragement for us to go on. There have been more of them lately than ever before in this country and Canada, I believe, showing that God is working with the brethren and He helps us. The Spirit of God Himself is helping us, because He is acting as the One sent front heaven. He is here in obedience, as it were, to carry out the will of God in this country and to work the work of God in it.
[p. 25] JK So that in that way we are privileged to see that as children of God there is a state being produced that continues.
JT As far as my memory goes, it is fifty years that these things have been going on. Our dear brother, Mr. S., if I may be allowed to refer to him, lived here for years, and God greatly blessed him because he aided brethren to come from different parts, from England particularly, and they came and were used. The work of God in that sense has been greatly augmented during these years, and it is still being augmented by means of these meetings.
Ques Speaking about the work of God in this country, should we not be exercised that there are so many large cities where there are no meetings? What can we do about the matter?
JT Take Buffalo, near here, there is no meeting there; and many others like that. It is a great sorrow and exercise, but at the same time the work of God to a great extent is comparatively recent in this country.
Ques Yes. I would like help as to what our exercises should be as to that matter. Should we pray more frequently at the prayer meetings that other saints in this country should also be drawn into the pathway of separation?
JT I think what is needed, to begin with, is the spirit of evangelisation, which marked Paul peculiarly. He connects the glad tidings with God, not simply the Father, “God’s glad tidings” (Romans 1: 1); that is something that should appeal to young hearts, that God is behind all evangelisation, and that should promote the spirit of evangelisation in all the saints, so that we talk to people in the light of that, that we bring in the gospel at every opportunity.
RWS I wonder if Acts 17 would help. Verse 1, “And having journeyed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica”; that is,
[p. 26] two cities appear to be passed by and Thessalonica is evangelised. In this country there is a meeting in Washington which is growing; there is more there than there used to be, so that God still has the cities He wishes to have in the testimony. In the key cities of the world, really, the testimony is there, is it not?
JT Well, there are more brethren in this general meeting that I ever saw before in Rochester. That is something; it shows increased interest.
CHH Would you encourage evangelising like Luke 10, where you might visit a city and find a son of peace in a house which would be a nucleus for an assembly? The house precedes the city in Luke 10.
JT That is good. There may be something to be said about all that as to this country and Canada, because I do believe there is general interest proceeding in these countries and in the adjoining countries to the far south; even in the Argentine there is a nice interest, a Roman Catholic country.
NB In Acts 17 we read that those in Berea were more noble than those in Thessalonica, yet we do not hear of an assembly in Berea. Would you help us as to that?
JT It would look from the words spoken that there must have been an assembly there. They found things out from the Scriptures. The allusion would imply that there was an assembly there.
FJF Would it be right for a brother to go to a town where there was no meeting if it was laid on his heart by the Lord?
JT If it is laid on his heart, it must be right, surely.
Rem It is remarkable that the queen of the south came up to see the one who says, “I, the Preacher, was king over Israel in Jerusalem”, Ecclesiastes 1: 12. God has not overlooked Africa.
[p. 27] JT That is to say, the preacher was a king, so the preaching was in good hands. It is a great inquiry as to what God has at the present time in different parts of the world to proclaim the glad tidings, and that is by preachers. The word preacher ought to be looked into carefully because it is the means that God has of announcing the glad tidings. Solomon was a king, but he was also a preacher, Jonah and several others were preachers. Nebuchadnezzar was a preacher. There are quite a few preachers who are a help and an encouragement to us if we follow up what is said of them in the Scriptures.
Ques This great evangelical idea is not limited to local platforms, is it? It is the great thought of God for men.
CM In verse 13 there seems to be an indication of the kind of preaching that had been going on in Thessalonica, does there not? It says, “And for this cause we also give thanks to God unceasingly that, having received the word of the report of God by us, ye accepted, not men’s word, but, even as it is truly, God’s word, which also works in you who believe”. It was not only a matter of the preaching going forward but the way in which it was received and God working in those who believe.
JT Quite so, so that the solution we come to is that everything is to be traced back to God. God has made use of men like Paul, they were preachers and God was with them. We must trace everything back to God if we are to be right. That ought to come out in meetings like these, that God is working.
CHH Would the experience in Isaiah 6 enter into evangelising, the thought of the moral preparation and then the prophet saying “Send me”, the idea of being sent and being available to be sent?
JT God is ready to send, of course: at the same time do we convey the idea of preaching, the heart that goes with the preaching, how God is in that [p. 28] heart? Isaiah, I suppose, is the most evangelical of all the prophets.
ABP Does Romans 10: 14, 15 bring that into the present day? “How then shall they call upon him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe on him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without one who preaches? and how shall they preach unless they have been sent?”
JT Very good. There are a great many who can preach at the present time, but the next thing is whether God is with them, so that there is power in the preaching and real product of fruit from the preaching.
FHL At the end of Acts 17 Paul is preaching in Athens and getting results but he does not seem to continue the work. Would you say a word about that? “Thus Paul went out of their midst. But some men joining themselves to him believed; among whom also was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman by name Damaris, and others with them”. In view of all that has been said as to evangelisation, I was wondering why Paul does not continue the work there.
JT The indication is that the work was very small, but it was there anyway both in men and women. There was a man and a woman, “and others with them”. There was some fruit from it, and we do get fruit in our little gospel meetings. We should, and do, get fruit and additions to the meetings too through the preaching. So that we should not be altogether discouraged, because God is working in this country and in Canada.
RWS You made an observation a few days ago in a reading on Romans 3 that preachers should understand Leviticus in a better way than they do. It came in in connection with the mercy-seat.
JT I do think that, that Leviticus is very little understood by the brethren, especially as to the law [p. 29] of things, how things are done and according to law, so that they are not done according to man’s will, but according to law in Leviticus. The law of things is given in Leviticus.
RWS Yes, I am just wondering how that applies in the gospel preaching.
JT Well, how things are done in the word. Whatever we are doing should be governed by law, by what is right, not done any way, because the whole of Christendom has veered away to man’s way of doing things. It is what we are trying to do now in meetings like this to keep things according to law, according to the law of God. The apostle says it is a question of the commandment of the Lord; it is a question of the commandment that is according to God. The whole of Christendom has veered away from that to man’s way. God has been helping us in what the brethren have been seeking to do for 150 years, what is right to do, what ought to be done as we are together. They began to do what was right and then open brethrenism developed almost immediately. The devil got in, in opposition to the great revival of the truth, but the Spirit of truth continues with the saints. He is with us now to teach us how to get things done right. It says the daughters of Zelophehad speak right; it is a great matter to do things and say things that are right.
AR Is that why Paul refers in this chapter to the glad tidings of God?
JT Just so, it is in keeping with Romans, but I think it is to appeal to the Thessalonians in their youthfulness, because they are ready to take in things. Although they are youthful, they love God. They are of God. There is a lot to indicate that they love God and they want to hear about God, that is more what is meant, whereas in Romans it is more the responsibility that attaches to the thought of God,
[p. 30] but here it is the love that is drawn out to God, that the Thessalonians loved God.
JLP Would the end of Matthew’s gospel have any bearing on what has been before us? The Lord says, “All power has been given me in heaven and upon earth”. And then commissioning the disciples to go and make disciples of all the nations, and then the matter of teaching them to “observe all things whatsoever I have enjoined you”. Matthew 28: 18, 20.
JT And the next thing is that “I am with you all the days, until the completion of the age”. That is, the Lord is going to be with us if we do this, not simply the responsibility that attaches to it but He is going to be with us. “Baptising them to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit”, it says at the end of Matthew, and the Lord says I am going to be with you always. That would mean, not what John says, but what Matthew teaches; that is to say, the Lord is with us always, whereas in John He comes to us. “I am coming to you”, He says, John 14: 18. In Matthew He is always with us, and I think we ought to pay attention to that too. We can always count on the Lord.
WWM Would you say a word about the street preaching? Should we carry it on?
JT I think it is a first-rate work. When I was in Australia the last time, I noticed that there was no street preaching and l pointed it out to the brethren. There is street preaching now always. We do it in this country.
WWM It speaks about Philip going down to Samaria to preach. I wondered if it would be right for any who had it laid upon his heart to preach in other towns besides the ones in which we have our meetings.
JT It is a question of what God is doing. If He lays it upon your heart, it must be right to do it; I would say it is always right to do it whenever you [p. 31] have an opportunity. Another thing that comes up is whether there is fellowship in what is being done, whether the brethren are with you in it.
WWM The scripture says, “How shall they hear without one who preaches? and how shall they preach unless they have been sent?” Romans 10: 14, 15. Would the idea of being sent be more connected with the love of souls that God would put in a man’s heart to try to win others?
JT Just so. I would add to what you have said the idea of fellowship, and the other thing is that the brothers are to have gift. There must be some gift before there is preaching, some ability from God to preach.
WWM In regard to the preaching of the glad tidings, the word of God, while you have in mind the blessing of men, would you have the assembly in mind because that is where the result for God counts? Unless there is a result for God you are really only adding to the confusion of Christendom.
JT Just so.
AJG Do you not think we might well pray more definitely for specific gift in preaching? There should be real power and obvious results.
JT I do think that. I would hardly venture to say how many persons there are who can stand up and preach, and preach well in a sense, in New York district. The great thing, therefore, is to ask God about power. There should be power; not in word, but in power, as the apostle says; ability, too, as to the words used because there must be ability and understanding, but at the same time to be sure there is power attached to it.
Ques How do you get power?
JT You get it from God. God gives the power.
Ques Do you mean by saying that, that we are to have power, that one should have moral weight before [p. 32] God?
JT Quite so. And then there is another thing that has to be attached to all this, that whether it be God Himself, or whether it be the Father specifically, or the Son, or the Spirit, They should be regarded as God. Whether it be the Father, or the Lord, or the Spirit, each One can be regarded as God, so that divine Persons are viewed interchangeably. They are all God; if They are doing anything, God is doing it. Therefore, we are wonderfully enlarged by thinking of divine Persons and how They can be viewed as interchanging with each other in the service. But God is always working.
Rem I wonder in that connection whether you might give us a word as to verse 12 and the last verse of our chapter. “That ye should walk worthy of God” and “For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of boasting? are not ye also before our Lord Jesus at his coming? for ye are our glory and joy”. The two divine Persons are mentioned.
JT Quite so, and you can add to that the Spirit too, because the Spirit operates also as God.
Rem I wondered whether it was God in the full sense in verse 12, involving the three divine Persons. We might get help as to the idea of walking “worthy of God, who calls you to his own kingdom and glory”, and then the “Lord Jesus at his coming”. What would be the distinction?
JT Whatever divine Person we mention, by the terms that are mentioned we can say whether it is God Himself, or the Lord Jesus, or the Holy Spirit. We see the names of divine Persons and how they may be presented in Scripture, then we can understand what terms to use. Is that God, or who is it, or is the Person specifically mentioned? If it is not specific, it is God, of course, that is the thought. Then if Christ is mentioned we can see that He is called God too. “He is the true God and eternal life”, 1 John 5: 20. And the Spirit is God and may [p. 33] be called God too, so that we can always arrive at what term to use when we are speaking of divine Persons.
GS Does verse 13 involve the Spirit really, “the report of God by us” and “God’s word, which also works in you who believe”?
JT It might be. It says “give thanks to God”, that is God in general, and then “having received the word of the report of God by us”. “The report of God” may be by the Spirit. “Ye accepted, not men’s word, but even as it is truly, God’s word”; that also may be regarded as involving the Spirit. Another thing to keep in mind to confirm all that, is that the Spirit has come down; He has been sent from heaven. It never says that God has been sent down, God comes down; that may be the Spirit. God comes down and works here.
CHH Revelation 22: 17, “And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is athirst come; he that will, let him take the water of life freely”. Does that give an evangelical touch to the final phase of the assembly’s history?
JT Just so, at the very end of the dispensation, an evangelical touch. In fact that whole chapter has an evangelical touch about it.
RWS Paul says, in verse 18, “Wherefore we have desired to come to you, even I Paul, both once and twice, and Satan has hindered us”. I wondered about Satan hindering the great apostle Paul, and whether there is anything like that today.
JT He is the adversary against God; the word implies an adversary. Paul was conscious of that all the time; “Satan has hindered us”, he says.
RWS I am puzzled a little by it. I wondered if you had experienced anything of being hindered by Satan in your service. Paul wanted to go once and twice, and Satan apparently hindered him. I [p. 34] wondered, without being personal, if you had ever experienced being hindered by Satan from going to a place.
AR Would not the Second World War be Satan hindering? You could not go to England during the war.
JT It may have been discipline for me. Some ministrations were hindered and stopped altogether. Certainly we have to recognise the fact that Satan is allowed to act. Presently he will be imprisoned and then he will be let loose after that. Sometimes God allows him liberty.
Ques In Daniel 10: 13 it says “The prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days”. Do you think that is the same idea?
JT Quite so, exactly the same thing.
JTJr Paul says to the Corinthians that Satan should not get an advantage: “That we might not have Satan get an advantage against us”, 2 Corinthians 2: 11. That is for us to see to, is it not?
JT We are watchful to that end, that Satan may not hinder us.
JHE The Lord could detect quickly; He said to Peter, “Get away behind me, Satan”, Mark 8: 33 Just so, very practical in that sense. The Lord dealt with him at once.