READINGS ON FIRST THESSALONIANS (4)
READINGS ON FIRST THESSALONIANS (4)
JT From the outset of these meetings it has been commented upon that the coming of the Lord is prominent in this epistle. The Lord’s coming is a phrase familiarly used. It appears in this chapter peculiarly, not simply His appearing but His coming for us. It is a hope that we have. What is noted particularly is those that have fallen asleep; those of the saints who have died are particularly important. So verse 13 says, “But we do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them that are fallen asleep, to the end that ye be not grieved even as also the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus has died and has risen again, so also God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. (For this we say to you in the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who remain to the coming of the Lord, are in no way to anticipate those who have fallen asleep; for the Lord himself, with an assembling shout, with archangel’s voice, and with trump of God, shall descend from heaven; and the dead in Christ shall rise first; then we, the living who remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall be always with the Lord. So encourage one another with these words.)”. I read all the passage that relates to the Lord’s coming so that we might have it all clearly before us before we proceed fully in the chapter, and with a view, too, of the further thought of the Lord’s coming in chapter 5. We want to begin with the first thought in chapter 4, which is sanctification. It says in verse 3, “For this is the will of God, even your sanctification”, and it goes on to say, “that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honour”, and so forth. So the prime thought immediately is sanctification.
RWS Paul says in verse 1, “For the rest, then, brethren”. Does that not seem to characterise Paul’s epistles, as if having completed the body of the epistle, he brings in some final thoughts in saying, “For the rest”? This seems to contain a most important part of the epistle. He sometimes brings in great matters as an appendix.
JT That is to say, what remains to be said. Of course, there is a second epistle which we are not going to look into, but, as you say, “For the rest” would imply what remains to be said now.
EAL Would verse 10 of the previous chapter help in that, “beseeching exceedingly to the end that we may see your face, and perfect what is lacking in your faith”, as if that might have a connection with the beginning of chapter 4? In all the chapters read, belief or faith seems to have a very important place. It is only on the basis of our faith and belief that we can come into these truths you are bringing before us.
JT Just so. And the idea is not simply faith in the sense of the profession of Christianity. It is not simply that, but it is “your faith”, that which each one of us has, “a measure of faith”, faith being the measure of things for a Christian. Without faith it is impossible to please God; whatever we have heard as to doctrine, we must have faith or we cannot please God. Faith is a peculiar thing that God appreciates in His people. And hence here, “if we believe”, that is to say, the coming of the Lord is in mind, but faith underlies all that. It can only be for those who have faith. Those who have not faith are awaiting judgment.
AR And also, would you say, the coming of the Lord would be for those who are clean? Hold your vessels [p. 59] to honour.
JT Exactly. That is the idea of sanctification.
AR Sanctification and honour are in contrast to uncleanness, as it says in verse 7, “For God has not called us to uncleanness, but in sanctification”.
JT Sanctification implies holiness, not simply that we are clean but that we are holy. It is a great thought with God, to be holy. “Be ye holy”, He says, “for I am holy”. We cannot attach faith to God; faith is not applicable to God, but it is applicable to Christ, however. He is the Author and Completer of faith. Holiness belongs to God. “Be ye holy, for I am holy”. Therefore, this first paragraph refers to sanctification, not only cleanness but sanctification; that is to say, one is to be holy.
FJF Does that imply that the vessel is ready and suitable to be changed at any moment?
JT Just so. An elect vessel. Paul himself was an elect vessel unto the Lord, to bear His name before kings. So God is very concerned about the vessel, that is to say, what it contains, and then the character of the vessel. It is what you contain or have in you, but character too is in mind.
LES Does not the present ministry as to the Holy Spirit directly bear on this?
JT There is a word here about that. Verse 7 says, “For God has not called us to uncleanness, but in sanctification”; and then verse 8, “He therefore that in this disregards his brother, disregards, not man, but God, who has given also his Holy Spirit to you”. The vessel is in mind, but what is in it is the prime thought; that is the Holy Spirit. There cannot be anything greater than that in anybody. There must be the idea of the vessel.
EAL In chapter 1 we have, “having accepted the word in much tribulation with joy of the Holy Spirit”. That is the way in which we accept the truth, referring to what has just been said as to the Holy Spirit.
JT Yes. “Also in power, and in the Holy Spirit, and in much assurance”. So the vessel is of prime importance in view of what is in it. The Holy Spirit is in the assembly, of course, but each person, each believer has the Holy Spirit; that is, if he has really received the Holy Spirit. A person may be born again or at least in some sense a vessel of something in the sense of quickening, but the prime thought is that of a vessel possessing the Holy Spirit, the greatest thing that can attach to us, because it is the presence of God Himself here on earth, in view of His place in the assembly that “God is indeed amongst you”.
CHH Would that be consistent with 1 Corinthians 6, “Do ye not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have of God; and ye are not your own? for ye have been bought with a price: glorify now then God in your body”, 1 Corinthians 6: 19, 20?
JT Quite so. Therefore, each vessel here today is of prime importance, that is, not only a believer who is in some sense quickened, but one having faith, a true believer and knowing that he has the Holy Spirit. So in Ephesus the first point made is “Did ye receive the Holy Spirit when ye had believed?” Acts 19: 2. They did not know about the Spirit, and that is the question, whether we all know about it, and whether we all have the blessed Spirit of God, and thus that our vessels are pure and sanctified.
Ques In Ephesians 4 it says, “Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God”. Is that individual?
JT Yes, but it might be the assembly, too. Because of your relation with other believers, you may grieve the Spirit. You may be all right yourself, but you may affect other believers. We may not honour other believers as we should.
FHL Did the apostle know that there were local conditions requiring this [p. 61] ministry?
JT I would think so. I would think that Paul would keep in touch with the assemblies. It was a great matter with him. He had the care of all the assemblies, which is a great matter. So here we have “with all his saints”, the idea of the wholeness, the completeness, of the persons implied. The assembly, of course, is the prime thought in the present dispensation because of what it is as a vessel, and how God can use it. Therefore, the importance of each one keeping himself clean and sanctified.
JLP The will of God enters into this matter of sanctification, and in the second chapter of the next letter the divine choice. “God has chosen you from the beginning to salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth”. I would like help as to the thought of salvation being linked on with sanctification in the scripture read.
JT The second epistle is just to enforce and enlarge what is contained in the first epistle, the first is the prime thought. We are being held in our conversation to this matter of sanctification, to get a grasp of it inwardly and carry it away with us.
WWM In Acts 15 Peter says, “And the heart-knowing God bore them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit as to us also”. Faith must precede the Spirit, would you say that?
JT That is the idea exactly. The whole dispensation stands thus; it is a dispensation of faith, but then it is not only that, but there are certain characteristics that this epistle peculiarly stresses. What we are engaged with now before coming to the thought of the Lord’s coming, is sanctification. The saints should be clear of this world, but especially in this matter of personal relations with others that would defile them peculiarly.
ABP Should there be a measure of sanctification before the Spirit is received? Is that [p. 62] necessary?
JT I think the work of God in the soul effects something, but it is not complete without the Spirit, the word sealed is used in regard of the Spirit in Ephesians. We must have the seal, the sealing is by the Spirit. There may be a work of God before that, but it is not complete without the sealing.
FJF Are a believer’s children looked on also as sanctified?
JT Well, externally, God would look at them not only in themselves but in relation to their parents, because God is reserving His thought as to what He thinks of parents. He attaches much to parents, not only individual persons, but their children. But then they may not all have the Spirit, but God looks at them in relation to their parents. Then the next thing is for parents to bring up their children “in the discipline and admonition of the Lord”. The parents have to see to that, but at the same time the person may not have anything beyond what we might call quickening, which is not complete, but something of that kind in a person who believes. If his parent believes, it is more to the point with God that He should refer to the parent as well as to the child, so that the whole household should be saved. Hence the first reference to salvation is that Noah prepared an ark for the saving of his house and that implied, in principle, what God has effected in the gift of the Spirit in this dispensation. There were no gifts in the old dispensation, but there was a work of God with men but no completeness. The law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope does, by which we draw nigh unto God. It must be the better hope, implying the presence of the Spirit.
Rem The previous remark about parents and children does not apply to the Lord Jesus, “the holy thing”.
JT In the expression “the holy thing”, it is the Babe that is in mind. The word ‘thing’ would not be used otherwise. The Lord is called a boy afterwards, that is, a grown child, but the word ‘thing’ is used in Luke only and refers to the Babe condition. It is a very remarkable thing and the word is to Mary, the mother of the Lord. “The holy thing also which shall be born shall be called Son of God”. He is not yet called that outwardly, He is going to be called that. Mary heard that from the angel’s lips. The angel says remarkable things to Mary in view of the great fact that she was to be the Lord’s mother. There was Elizabeth too linked up with her, because she was her kinswoman, the mother of John the baptist, who was the forerunner of the Lord. It is a great matter to think of the mothers of such persons, the mother of John the baptist first and then the mother of Jesus, the greatest honour that could be conferred on anybody in that sense, to be the mother of the Lord Jesus.
F.N.W. What is holiness?
JT Well, it is a question of state that applies to God. It applies to God first; God is holy. “Be ye holy, for I am holy”. It is therefore effected by the power of the Spirit, the Spirit viewed as oil. The word ‘anointed’ implies that the person is indwelt by the Spirit. The word ‘oil’ alludes to the Spirit as rendering us holy. Oil is used as a figure to convey an idea, that of man being dignified by receiving the presence of the Holy Spirit on the ground of the redemptive work of the Lord Jesus Christ.
MO Does John in his epistle link the truth of sanctification with the Lord’s coming when he says, “And every one that has this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure”?
JT Just so; there is a strong link between these epistles and the epistles of John. They are closely associated. Of course, John was an apostle too, and [p. 64] Paul was the great apostle of the assembly. We learn almost everything from Paul as to the assembly because he had that ministry expressly.
ABP Having the hope in him would be by the Spirit; the thought of ‘in him’ links on with the power of the Spirit to make that hope living?
JT Just so, and having that hope we know that we have the Spirit of God.
AAT Are sanctification and holiness the same?
JT Very much the same, sanctification refers to holiness, but the word ‘holy’ is full and complete because it applies to God Himself. You could not have it more complete, because it applies to God. God is holy. “Be ye holy, for I am holy”.
AB Does the footnote to sanctification in verse 7 help? It is ‘holiness’, as in Romans 6: 19, 22. But ‘sanctification’ is used in English for the result as well as the activity which produces it.
JT Very good, therefore the importance of these notes in the New (Darby) Translation.
Ques May I ask a simple question for those of us who are young? How do we get holy? We used to sing a hymn, ‘Take time to be holy, speak oft with thy Lord’. Would we get more holy if we had more communion with the Holy Spirit?
JT Quite so, the gospels are the basis of the New Testament, but the epistles are written for a special reason to bring out the completeness of the truth of Christianity. The gospels have the truth of Christianity in mind, but the epistles have the details that are needed to fill it out. Of course, the great thought of the gospels is to narrate the coming here of the Lord Jesus Christ, a divine Person, born of a woman, that is to say, born of Mary.
RWS Verse 4 says, “that each of you know how to possess his own vessel”. It is a word we use commonly, the ‘know-how’. All of us, young and old, should [p. 65] know how.
JT Know how to possess, that is the idea. “That each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honour”. That is the point we are stressing and that the Spirit of God is stressing in the beginning of this chapter, but we want to go on to the coming of the Lord because that is the main thing before us in this reading.
AR Holiness would precede the rapture.
JT What we are dealing with now is to lead up to the idea of the rapture, the coming of the Lord.
WWM 2 Corinthians 7: 1 reads, “Having therefore these promises, beloved, let us purify ourselves from every pollution of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in God’s fear”. That comes in after speaking of coming out and being separate, being here for God.
JT Quite so. I believe this epistle largely links on with the Corinthian epistles. We have promises in chapter 7, and we are called upon to lay hold of them. These promises refer to the previous chapter.
Ques In John 17 the Lord says, “I sanctify myself for them, that they also may be sanctified by truth”. Is that a different form of sanctification?
JT You mean setting apart; it is not a question of the state of the Lord Jesus at all. It is a question of the attitude He has taken up personally, and it is in relation to them, setting Himself apart in view of their being set apart.
JW This matter of the ‘know-how’ seems to stand related to the divine authority, the will of God, linking with what you said in an earlier reading as to God as Creator and the recognition of His authority.
FW Is the reason for the lack of sanctification because we are not actually looking for the Lord’s return? Paul spoke of ardently desiring.
JT That is just what is in mind in this reading, that sanctification precedes the matter of the coming [p. 66] of the Lord. It is important that the brethren should have the thought of sanctification if we are really desiring to go to be with the Lord, to be translated, because it is imminent now as we believe fully. The state that is suitable for it is a great point in the early part of the chapter. Someone has enquired what is sanctification, what is holiness? It is the effect of the Spirit received on the ground of the death of Christ. It is the effect of the Spirit’s operations, that is the meaning of it, that it is holiness in that sense to be made like God Himself. God is holy, therefore we are to be holy. If we are to join the Lord in the translation, we should be suitable. We do not just go up to be with the Lord as we are here today, because there are certain conditions in us that have to be discarded and forever set aside. We shall not need them eternally.
HEE We might go back to the first verse, “Ye ought to walk and please God”. John looked upon Jesus as He walked. What a walk that was!
JT He was affected, quite so, and said, “Behold the Lamb of God”. And the disciples were affected by that and they followed Jesus. So that is the idea here, that we are to be in a suitable state to be translated, because the Lord is concerned about that. He is coming to take us up; “The Lord Himself ... shall descend”. He is going to do that, so that He is looking for us now to be sanctified, that is to say, that our vessels are to be holy. That is the first part of the chapter.
GD Would there be a certain urgency suggested in the last chapter of Revelation? “The time is near ... he that is holy, let him be sanctified still. Behold, I come quickly”. Would there be urgency in that in connection with sanctification?
JT In that chapter it says “the Spirit and the bride say, Come”. The Spirit of God is involved in that word “say, Come”. The Spirit is saying it too,
[p. 67] as well as the bride. So it is well said that what we say should be said well.
Ques Is Enoch an example?
JT Just so, he is the seventh from Adam; that is, he has gone through the whole course. The word ‘seven’ implies that he had gone through the whole course of instruction, from Adam to his own time. He prophesied of the Lord coming with His holy myriads. So Enoch had the testimony before he was translated that he pleased God. We are looking for translation now and this chapter deals with it. Therefore, if we expect to be translated, let us please God in what we are doing.
Ques Before you go on, would you say something about honouring the body? It says “his own vessel in sanctification and honour”. God is not going to leave our bodies here when the Lord comes; He is going to translate our bodies. Should we not value our bodies in the way that God values them? Does the word ‘honour’ bring that out?
JT Quite so. We should especially keep in mind that the Lord’s coming is mentioned in every chapter in this epistle. Therefore, we can see the Spirit of God makes a great point of it, and we ought to make a great point of it. So the idea in this part of the chapter is sanctification in view of translation. We should be cleansed but sanctified as well, which has reference to God, that God is holy and we should be holy. The Lord is going to come for us and take us up, but it says in verse 14 that God will bring the saints with him. God Himself will do it, so it is a question of God, to be holy as God is holy. So the word is, “Now concerning brotherly love ye have no need that we should write to you, for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another”. Then in verse 13, “But we do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them that are fallen asleep”, because now it is a question of the coming [p. 68] of the Lord. God is going to bring the sleeping ones with Him; He will not leave them behind. It is not simply those who are alive and remain but those who have fallen asleep from Abel down. We will all be transferred to be with the Lord.
AR What you are saying now is that God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep, and the Lord Himself shall descend and then you referred to the fact that the Spirit of God quickens our mortal bodies; the Godhead will all bear on the rapture.
JT Quite so, so that God brings the sleeping saints with Him. He will not leave them here on the earth, even if they are dead for a thousand years. God will bring them with Him. Then we are taught how. It is the Lord Jesus, for God has given everything to be in His hand, even the matter of translation is to be in the Lord’s hands. He is to do it; so the word ‘how’ to which attention has been drawn, how the thing is to be done, is a great matter.
ABP In that connection I was struck with the footnote in John’s epistle. “And every one that has this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure”. The footnote says ‘Him who is to be manifested’.
JT When He is manifested; now we are children of God, but when He is manifested we shall be like Him. This is how it is to happen.
ABP Purification is as having the manifestation in view.
Ques Would the knowing how be knowing how to use the Spirit? We put to death the deeds of the body by the Spirit.
JT Quite so.
CHH I think you have said that the parenthesis from verse 15 to the end of the chapter was fresh light for the apostle that he himself had not received [p. 69] before.
JT It is a new thing. The Lord’s coming was in mind throughout Scripture, but this is one of the most distinctive thoughts that we have in all the Bible as to the Lord’s coming, and how it comes about, what happens. It says “if we believe”, again we come back to the idea of believing, of faith. “For if we believe that Jesus has died and has risen again, so also God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus”. Then the remaining part of the chapter is to unfold to us what will happen. Thus the great stress in the early part of the chapter as to sanctification and honour, but sanctification especially.
RWS Is the allusion to God, in verse 14, to the Father?
JT It is the ordinary sense of the name God. In 1 Corinthians 8, we are told “to us there is one God”, and then we are told, that He is the Father, and “one Lord, Jesus Christ”. Here in verse 14 “if we believe that Jesus has died and has risen again, so also God will bring with him”, that is God in the ordinary sense of the word God, including the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Either one of Them can be called God, but here it is God in the full sense without any qualification.
Ques In verse 16 there is the designation of a person, is there not? “The Lord himself”, is that the Operator?
JT Just so, and then we have the Father Himself, too, but Christ is the Operator here. It says, “for the Lord himself, with an assembling shout”, notice the word ‘assembling’, the church is in mind, “with archangel’s voice”. Why should the archangel be mentioned? Well, it is; it is a special matter. “With archangel’s voice and with trump of God”, it is God Himself in the voice, “shall descend from heaven; and the dead in Christ shall rise first”. That is part of the operation.
FJF [p. 70] Do you think it is a military allusion?
JT I think it is. It is mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15 and is a military allusion. The “assembling shout” here is a military allusion, but 1 Corinthians 15 is more so. There is more in 1 Corinthians 15 as to that point than there is here.
Ques Would being caught up together in the clouds and meeting the Lord in the air be simultaneous?
JT Let us see how it reads. “Then we, the living who remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall be always with the Lord”. Meeting the Lord in the air is the final thought. We meet each other first, that is, the whole idea is caught up together, the whole assembly, as it were, is caught up.
RWS Verse 16 says “and the dead in Christ shall rise first”. Does the Lord touch the dead first and then does the Spirit in us who are living change us? According to Romans 8: 11 the Holy Spirit has to do with the living. You have said possibly the brethren do not fully understand this yet, as to the action of the Spirit in quickening our mortal bodies.
JT I am referring to that, “for the Lord himself, with an assembling shout, with archangel’s voice and with trump of God, shall descend from heaven; and the dead in Christ shall rise first; then we, the living who remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air”. I would assume that the whole physical condition that we are in now is involved; we meet the Lord in the air; not beyond the air. There is a certain limit to the depth of the air, and we are to meet the Lord in that place. So He comes down part of the way, I would say. We all go up together, and we have met together in the air, but we are going to meet the Lord in the air. The Lord is clearly coming [p. 71] down to meet us and then we shall be forever with the Lord. Our comfort is in the words that are mentioned “so encourage one another with these words”. The general position is that we are here now, and what is behind us is all the dead in Christ. They will be raised, and as regards the living the action of the change is by the Spirit, that is what I understand. Romans 8:11 says that the Spirit is the power of change. After we are changed, we are caught up together with those who have been raised to meet the Lord in the air “and thus we shall be always with the Lord”.
EAL Does it mean where it says “and with trump of God, shall descend from heaven; and the dead in Christ shall rise first”, that the dead get their heavenly personalities when the Lord comes down from heaven and raises them? I think you have said that the dead go to heaven, not when they die, but when they are raised.
JT Quite so, the point stressed now is how the thing happens, that is to say, the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven, but the first thought mentioned is that God is in the thing, so that the great thought of the divine personality is God, and He is involved in this. Then the trump is to be heard; it is “trump of God”, so that ‘to know how’ is of great importance to keep in our minds, to know how the thing happens; it is a wonderful happening. The Spirit of God is pleased to give those facts to show what does happen.
Rem You said elsewhere that the Holy Spirit has to do with the living and the Lord with the dead.
JT That is exactly what I believe and what Scripture teaches. The Spirit has to do with the living because of His dwelling in us. But then 1 Corinthians 15: 51 shows that all are to be changed. The dead are raised by the Lord, but as regards the living, if the happening were to take place [p. 72] today, the Spirit would do it. The Spirit of God would change us. The Spirit’s work is the first work in mind, but the Lord descends. It does not say the Spirit descends; He is already here. The sound of God’s voice is to be heard by the trumpet, the “trump of God”. So it is well to keep all these items in mind so that when we talk about them to one another we know what we are saying and we know what words to use. What hope arises in our hearts according to it!
FNW The other day you used the word ‘detail’ as to the quickening of our mortal bodies by the Spirit. Would that add to us in a detailed way now in a moral sense? We have been speaking of holiness. Does He not help us now in reaching a state of holiness in a detailed way, but presently He is going to quicken our mortal bodies? He has to do that work in a detailed way then, does He not?
JT Quite, our mortal bodies, that is what we are in just now. They have to be changed. Your clothes will have to go. The Lord will do all that but the Spirit will be the agent of it “on account of his Spirit which dwells in you”, Romans 8: 11. That is to say, He will do all the details, to speak reverently. The Holy Spirit will undertake graciously to deal with all matters relative to how we are to go up. The Lord Himself is coming down to see us; “thus we shall be always with the Lord”. The Lord will do the reception, but the Spirit will do the changing, what is needed to fit us for the change.
JTJr “The Spirit and the bride say, Come” would be in line with that. The thing would be in the saying, the intelligence would be in it.
JT Quite so.
AB It is very beautiful to think of the Lord descending with an assembling shout, and the Spirit in relation to the living quickening the mortal bodies, co-ordinating with the Lord.
JT [p. 73] Quite so. All that implies that the assembly is in mind, the whole of it is in mind, that we all go up together. The Spirit has to do with that, but the Lord Himself does the raising of the dead. He can take them out of their graves. He has been dead Himself — wonderful — we speak reverently, the Lord has been dead Himself, three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. He knows it all experimentally, and then the Spirit will do all the balance of the work, because there will have to be a preparation for us to go into heaven where we are to be eternally. We will not need anything that we are wearing now; it will all be dealt with in the power of the Spirit. Now let the brethren just dwell on the fact that the action of the Spirit will touch us, and He is here today to serve us, to help us in our minds. But presently He will do other things; that is to say, what refers to our bodies. The Spirit will do that. We will be changed “on account of his Spirit which dwells in you”. The Spirit will do great things and what He will do finally is to quicken us, to quicken our mortal bodies.
Ques Who is going to decide when this moment arrives, the Father, the Son, or the Spirit? I am thinking of the Scripture, “But of that day or of that hour no one knows ... but the Father”. Is the Father in charge of it all; is He determining the time?
JT Well, it is a question of the Scripture that links up the Father with all we are saying. I would think all the divine Persons are involved, the matter is so great and glorious. They will all be in this great transaction.
NB Would Acts 1: 7 help? “It is not yours to know times or seasons, which the Father has placed in his own authority”.
Rem That is the trend of the scripture I had in mind, but I think the scripture I quoted has to [p. 74] do with the appearing more than the translation. But this last scripture quoted is better, and seems as if the Father is in charge of determining the exact time.
WWM The scripture referred to is in Mark 13: 31, 32, “The heaven and the earth shall pass away, but my words shall in no wise pass away. But of that day or of that hour no one knows, neither the angels who are in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father”.
Rem I thought that scripture might refer to the appearing or the ending of things, whereas we are considering the translation, the rapture. It seems as if the time is determined by the Father according to Mark 13. Does the Father also determine the time in connection with the rapture?
JT Well, you might say that the operations in relation to the rapture are all simultaneous. It says “in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye”. God does that, and that is the reason God is mentioned first here, “God will bring with him”. God will determine the time. Of course, the divine Persons would be all in it. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit will be all in this great transaction.
MO What you have said in relation to the Holy Spirit should help us to understand the glorious completion of His service to the assembly, should it not? That would be His last service to us while we are on earth, would it not?
JT The Spirit will always remain with us: He will never leave us, even in heaven. The Spirit will go with us because there is to be service there. God will be glorified there in His saints, glorified in all that believe. The glorification will be in the power of the Spirit.
FJF Mr. Darby’s hymn says, ‘By the Spirit all pervading’ (14:5).
JT Just so, that is just the word.
JC “And I will beg the Father, and he will give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever, the Spirit of truth”, John 14: 16.
JT Yes, He will be with us for ever.
FJF Is it right to think that the Holy Spirit will revive the whole church before the Lord’s coming, so that we will all say, Come?
JT Well, very likely, but we are saying it now. “The Spirit and the bride say, Come”, not that they will say it, but they are doing it now.
FJF And the others who are not in fellowship with us?
JT It is not a question of fellowship; it is a question of going to heaven. All the divine Persons are in it. They are all in the transaction. It is going to be wonderful. Think of the wonderfulness of it! Every true Christian will be involved in it whether he is in fellowship or not.
RJC What is the distinction between the clouds and the air?
JT They are just agencies that God has. It is said that the air is about forty-five miles deep, so the air is in mind. The higher we go the more attenuated it is. The Lord will come into it. It is wonderful that we get all these details in this wonderful chapter.
FJF So the Lord will come very near the earth.
JT It will be as near at least as the depth of the air. It is said to be about forty-five miles high and the Lord will come into that, so that it will be a near matter.
Ques How do you view the Old Testament saints in relation to the assembly?
JT That is a question which I am not prepared to answer, but it looks to me as if 1 Corinthians 15 would deal with the whole matter. This chapter seems to be more limited, more in connection with Paul’s own personal feelings about the saints in [p. 76] Thessalonica. It seems to be a matter of Paul himself and his own thoughts given to him by the Spirit. 1 Corinthians 15 deals with the whole matter.
TW You used the express word ‘assembly’ here.
JT I think perhaps the Lord’s movements relate to the assembly only, but I would not be sure about that, because I think He is concerned about all of His own. He has secured them all.
Ques Will you differentiate between this remark, “fallen asleep through Jesus”, and “the dead in Christ”?
JT There is not much change, only the “dead in Christ” is more official.
Rem Reference has been made to the Old Testament saints. I wondered whether they had something to do with the first-fruits.
JT Well, I think they have. I think the Lord will change them all; He has died for us all and we will all go up with Him. I believe that fully. Then there are the millennial saints too. We have to consider that. There is so much to be said about it. The book of Revelation has much in relation to this matter as to the translation and our going to be with the Lord for ever.
Ques Is it your thought that this epistle would fit in with what you have already said in relation to John’s epistle? “I write to you, little children, because ye have known the Father”. It is somewhat limited to young persons who knew the truth in a limited way.
JT I would say there is a good deal in that, but it is not absolute. We could not exclude from the Thessalonian saints men and women. We know that in the millennium there may be old men and old women, so that we have to consider all that when we are dealing with this great subject. We have begun with the idea that it deals with young saints, that is not simply in age, but persons who are young [p. 77] in the faith. It is a question of faith, and if we have faith we are included. We are to regard them as young because they are not long in Christianity, only recently converted but they might be old people. In the millennium there will be old men and old women walking on the streets showing what a change there will be, but still they will be as we are here today, in flesh and blood. We will not be in flesh and blood; we shall be like the Lord. “We shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is”.
JHE This wonderful ministry to young believers, resulting in our looking for the Lord momentarily, will help us to keep short accounts.
JT Just so.