FREEDOM
FREEDOM
JT The remarks ending this chapter are in such a setting as to remind us of how John’s ministry contemplates a complete freedom from public religious order. The narrative ending here begins with chapter 13 where John says that it was before the passover without saying how long before. Then he speaks about the supper without saying what supper. He speaks about the Lord rising from supper, as if it was outside of religious customs, so as to set us free to be engaged with what is presented. Earlier the Lord is seen in this gospel as serving before John the baptist was cast into prison, whereas in the other gospels He waited until he was cast into prison, as if observing levitical order; but John would set all that aside, relieving us of any interference from such elements. A divine Person has come in, as the Lord is viewed in this gospel. The Word became flesh. He acts of Himself and Himself precedes everything. John the baptist says, “He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me” (John 1:15). He has liberty thus to act of Himself, and determines everything. That helps us in our times, as to what He has done. The Lord has done much to set us free, so that we might be able to listen to Him and go in for what He presents to us.
JHB Would the opened door which no man can shut and to which you alluded in your prayer refer to that state of freedom?
JT “I have set before thee an opened door” (Revelation 3:8). That is for us, not that we should assume to be Philadelphia. A door which no man can shut — it recognises the saints, having not denied His name; He would have us for Himself.
[p. 162] The Spirit being here, as the Lord says in John 14, “He shall teach you all things, and will bring to your remembrance all the things which I have said to you”. The Spirit being here at the present time, we get, in what the Lord said to others in His own way, the forms and applications needed for the moment, circumstances not being exactly the same, because “difficult times shall be there”, it says, and these have to be met.
ECR He says, “Be of good courage: I have overcome the world”.
PB Have you in mind that we learn this freedom in Christ Himself?
JT It is a question of the Lord Himself. John refers to Him as no other gospel does. What the Lord says in the end of the gospel, “If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?” (chapter 21:23), is a suggestion of what the ministry is intended for.
AG He “will bring to your remembrance all the things which I have said to you”. Would that have a wider bearing than the apostles themselves?
JT I think so. We have to remember it in the light of the last days. The fact that no allusion to the Lord’s supper is made directly, and that there is no word as to what supper it was from which He rose up, would indicate that He is speaking in a setting by itself, ignoring as you might say, what has come about in church history, that is, feasts and days. The Lord can act at any time. That is the idea; it is before the passover. Chapter 12 says six days before, but here (chapter 13:1) it is simply “before” it. He is not regulated by the passover at all.
— Y. Is it more regulated here by eternal life?
JT That enters into it, of course, but it begins by the testimony left here among us to wash one another’s feet. That is not simply in view of some particular feast or some preparation for the Lord’s supper; it is for having part with [p. 163] Him.
PB Has it a bearing generally or particularly in relation to the Lord’s day morning meeting?
JT It has a general bearing. I am not thinking of days. “Ye also ought to wash one another’s feet”. It is in order that there might be a state of love among us. Church privileges and services cannot be held otherwise. It is the state in which they are to be held.
COB If the Lord has shown the way in liberty, He would have us to follow.
JT Quite so. It is a question of His example here.
JHB I take it that you have been referring to the whole section, chapters 13 to 17, as having rather a special character.
JT That is what I was thinking of. Those chapters begin with an allusion to the passover: “before the feast of the passover”. Then it says in verse 2, “And during supper” — the thing is very informal; the passover is not regulating them.
JHB Do you regard this section of the gospel as having a special bearing on the assembly in its present light?
JT Yes. The introduction of the section lifts us out of church festivals and customary religious observances.
Ques Is it your thought in not being governed by religious customs that we shall be governed by what comes to light in Him?
JT That is it. What is He doing? Satan works too, in this section. It says, “The devil having already put it into the heart of Judas son of Simon, Iscariote, that he should deliver him up” (verse 2). Satan’s activities are taken note of. Satan knows what is going on. He has been occupied with the Lord’s wonderful preparation for this period. The Lord has set before us an opened door, and Satan puts it into the heart of someone as in the early days of the revival, so that almost immediately [p. 164] there was an attack, showing well enough that the devil was working.
JHB It is a great comfort to know that the Lord has the key of David.
JAP I suppose it is important that the Judas element should not be at the Supper.
JT Yes, if you can keep him out. Satan knew he would be there.
JHB What would be the difference in the application of these chapters to the assembly compared with that of the second part of chapter 20?
JT There you get the assembly in its persons, not ecclesiastically, not as a body, not as an organism, nor as an organised assembly, but just the persons that form it. Things must be carried through in certain persons: if you have the persons, things will be safe. Jesus came “where the disciples were” (John 20:19); ‘assembled’ (as in Authorised Version) should not be there. It is a question of the persons, and how great they are in relation to Him and the Father. The Lord coming in and out among us gives the spiritual side, not the public official side as in 1 Corinthians, where the local assembly is in mind.
HB What is the bearing of departing from this world to the Father?
JT It bears directly. He is not yet ascended; chapter 20 is as ascending, but this is preparatory to that, to show that He is in relation to this world, though He is going out of it. Current religion is for this world; it is part of this world. It is needed; governments see the need of it, but the Lord would show here that He is going up to the Father, whence He came. He came from God and He went to God.
JHB And His thought is to leave something here according to these chapters in keeping with Himself.
Ques Would the thought of testimony be in it?
JT First He leaves an example in the way of [p. 165] love. There is a testimony that we love one another to the extent of serving one another in a most humble way. That is the first great thing we learn in this section.
AG Is that why the persons are so often mentioned as disciples in this section?
JT Quite so. “By this shall all know that ye are disciples of mine, if ye have love amongst yourselves” (John 13:35). We learn from Him that the great thing is to have love among ourselves. I must contribute to that.
HLT As the day gets weaker and darker, we grow in that which grows strong, in love.
JT It is the state of things that enables the Lord to carry on. In chapter 14 we see that if the Spirit is coming, there must be obedience. He says in verse 15, “If ye love me, keep my commandments”. The Holy Spirit comes in in that connection.
JAP How is the thought of eternal life connected with what you are saying? The Lord speaks of it in chapter 17:3. Do we enjoy it in any special way in connection with the thought of the assembly?
JT I think it is brought in there, as part of what is in His hands administratively. He is going to speak of something more than that. I think the bearing of it is the millennium in this section. “As thou hast given him authority over all flesh, that as to all that thou hast given to him, he should give them life eternal. And this is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent”. It is a part of His administrative position. The Father has given Him authority over all flesh. That would work out in the millennial day. Of course it has a bearing in this day; it is worked out earlier in the gospel for us in chapters 3 and 4. John 3 speaks of it being given to those who believe on the Son, and John 4 is suggestive of the Spirit as the power to enjoy it. It is brought [p. 166] in here to fill out the general administrative position, but we are the subjects of His prayer as being connected with the testimony.
WRP Would you say a word as to chapter 16? Chapter 14 begins with love, and goes on to obedience.
JT Chapter 14 finishes with “Arise let us go hence”. There is a change in the position. Chapter 15 is a setting of fruitfulness for the Father, and chapter 16 is the battlefield. “These things I have spoken unto you that ye may not be offended. They shall put you out of the synagogues; but the hour is coming that every one who kills you will think to render service to God”. The 16th is the battlefield, with the Spirit here in that relation. In the 15th He is here, but it is the question of fruitfulness.
WRP Would you also say what is the connection between these chapters, 13 to 17?
JT Chapter 13 is the assembly, that we should have love among ourselves; chapter 14 is the operation of love in connection with obedience, keeping His commandments as loving Him. The 15th is the vine indicating fruitfulness to the Father; that is another position we occupy. The 16th is the battlefield, the Spirit in that connection bringing demonstration to the world of sin, and of righteousness and of judgment.
WRP In all those four chapters the Lord is speaking more or less to His disciples, but in the 17th He is not speaking to them.
JT He is speaking to His Father there, evidently in their hearing.
— Y. He has something in view greater than what they had before.
JT It is that we might know how to say, “Father”, and that we might understand the new kind of love, not the love of chapter 13. Of course, that is divine in another sense, but here it is the love wherewith the Father loves. So it qualifies us for [p. 167] assembly service, that we might know how to say, “Father”, and that we might know the place we have in the circle of divine affection, and the kind of love that belongs to that circle, the love of the Father to the Son.
HT The conditions of the first four chapters in this section are necessary to chapter 17.
JT Quite so.
PB I was wondering whether the four chapters would form the “men” of chapter 17.
JT That is where you get the idea of the men.
Ques Would the desires expressed concerning them, in verses 9 - 21, be in relation to their being maintained here in accordance with these four chapters?
JT He says, “I demand concerning them”; but when He comes to having them with Himself, He says, “I desire”. The demand shows the urgency with regard to our position here, not demanding that we should be taken out of the world. The urgency is to be here in the testimony.
JHB Would the last verse — I “will make it known” — have reference to after His resurrection?
JT In verse 6 He says, “I have manifested thy name”. That is not quite so deep a thought as “I have made known to them thy name, and will make it known; that the love with which thou hast loved me may be in them and I in them”. Verse 6 is something open, but the making known here is more something known in us. It is inward, not something before your eyes.
ECR Would you say a word about the difference between the covenant love of God and the love in those verses?
JT The covenant love is not dealt with in John properly. It is akin to the love of chapter 13, the knowledge of God in Christ and the service that is rendered, as the slave in Exodus 21. It is that kind [p. 168] of love, that has made the love of God effective by dying, which works out in service. It is a perfect love; it is the way the thing affects us publicly here. The love of this chapter is more than that: it is the love of the Father to the Son, which is to be in us. It makes way for Hebrews, the Lord on our side carrying on the service of God.
JAP Is not this beyond Hebrews?
JT Hebrews greatly assists us in this. It does not speak of us as sons, nor does it set us in relation to God as His Father and our Father. It is initial, showing how the Lord Himself carries on His service in the midst of the assembly, and how He is such a great Person, Minister of the sanctuary. It assists us as to what is in mind here; He is Minister of the sanctuary: He is in us, on our side.
HB “I in them”.
JT Yes; it is on our side.
— G. You were speaking of feet-washing having in view part with Him. It mentions that He had come out from God and was going to God. I suppose chapters 14 to 16 would have that in view, the continuation of His pathway, the pathway of the will of God.
JT Having come from God — you might introduce the covenant there. He has come from God and is going back to God, but He is going to the Father too. In His prayer after saying these things He says, “Father”. The point is that we might know how to say, “Father”.
Ques Does what you say indicate the importance of the covenant as leading up to this?
JT Yes; the covenant’s perfect love would set our hearts free. John does not present that here, but only in connection with His coming from and going to God. The feet-washing sets us free. Having part with Him takes us beyond [p. 169] the covenant.
ECR Is this the highest kind of love a creature could know, in the last verse of John 17? Do we need to understand the covenant to set us free to move forward on this line?
JT We were saying here this morning that in the synoptic gospels you have only a brief account of the Lord’s supper. It is in Jerusalem, where there is evil all around. Then they sing a hymn, and then they move on. These communications here, especially in His prayer, belong to the mount of Olives. It is the Lord’s own link with the Father. He was accustomed to go to the mount of Olives after teaching in the temple all day. They were brought outside Jerusalem to a spiritual realm. The Father’s love to the Son belongs to that realm: that is Ephesians.
PS “Having loved his own who were in the world, loved them to the end”. Does that contemplate right through to the end, or the end to be reached in chapter 17?
JT I think it is more that He loves them through in spite of opposition, whatever may arise. It is the love that never fails.
WRP He was leaving them in Satan’s world: He would love them with a love that would see them through.
COB He proposes in chapter 1 that the two disciples should come and see where He dwelt. In chapter 8 when others went to their own homes, He went to the mount of Olives.
JT He says, “Come and see”. It is spiritual; He gives them no street nor number. In chapter 8, they all went to their own homes, but Jesus went to the mount of Olives. Luke tells us that at night He went to the mount of Olives (Luke 21:37). We have to bear that in mind in thinking of Matthew and Mark’s version. There they went to the mount of Olives. They got the thought; it is not His leading them there: they went.
COB How would “Arise, let us go hence”, come in?
JT That is a change. Satan, the prince of this world, comes. The Lord says, “Arise, let us go hence”. I do not suppose they actually moved then. The Lord intimated the change. He goes on. We are so prone to be alarmed when the enemy comes in. In Nehemiah’s day, the people were alarmed when there was an attack. The Lord says, “The ruler of the world comes”. You could not have anything more alarming; but the Lord goes on to say that He is the true vine. He provides for the enemy’s coming.
HT Do you connect that with the word ‘demand’?
JT Yes. It is different from ‘beg’. That is used in chapter 14 — “I will beg the Father, and he will give you another Comforter”. We have great comfort in that such a One is demanding for us. This matter of Satan is important to notice. Satan will accost us; we can be sure of that. Satan always comes, even with the sons of God (Job 1:6). But provision is made; we are not to be turned aside.
JHB We go on bearing fruit.
JT That is to be attended to. God has to have something.
JAP Where you have the expression, “boldness and access in confidence by the faith of him”, is that higher than what we get in Hebrews? Is it a special kind of approach in the light of sonship?
JT The approach in Ephesians is stated in the words, “Through him we have both access by one Spirit to the Father” (chapter 2:18). That belongs to the assembly proper. Hebrews is approach “by the new and living way”, which is more in the light of the covenant. I would like to render that clear. Hebrews 10 is the consummation of a long course of instruction as to the covenant: “Boldness for entering into the holy of holies by the blood of Jesus, the [p. 171] new and living way which he has dedicated for us through the veil, that is, his flesh, and having a great priest over the house of God, let us approach with a true heart, in full assurance of faith, sprinkled as to our hearts from a wicked conscience, and washed as to our body with pure water” (Hebrews 10:19 - 22). The covenant leads up to that. Ephesians is on higher ground than that. It is access through Christ by one Spirit to the Father.
WRP Would you not connect John 20 with that?
JT Yes, I should.
ECR In John 17 the Lord lifts up His eyes to heaven before He says, “Father”. It would indicate the Father’s realm.
JT “These things Jesus spoke, and lifted up his eyes to heaven”. In chapter 11 He lifts up His eyes “on high”, but here it is heaven itself, the Father’s realm.
JTC We have His glory mentioned on several occasions. There is the glory which, He says, “I have given them” (verse 22) and in verse 24 it says, “that they may behold my glory”. Would you give us a little help as to that?
JT The first verse is a general side. “Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee”. That refers to His exaltation to heaven, and the giving of the Spirit, and the working out of the assembly. That is the general thought. Then there is the administration in connection with the authority of the Father’s kingdom as to eternal life, and then the desire to be with the Father, in verse 5. He says, “I have glorified thee on the earth, I have completed the work which thou gavest me that I should do it; and now glorify me, thou Father, along with thyself, with the glory which I had along with thee before the world was”. That is in Deity. It is the greatest thought possible.
[p. 172] In verse 6 He comes to the men that the Father gave Him. They were intelligent. Then He went on later to say that “the glory which thou hast given me I have given them, that they may be one, as we are one; I in them and thou in me, that they may be perfected into one and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and that thou hast loved them as thou hast loved me”. Then “Father, as to those whom thou hast given me, I desire that where I am they also may be with me, that they may behold my glory which thou hast given me, for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world”. So we have the glory that He shared with the Father, and the glory that the Father gives Him that He can communicate to them, and the glory that they are to behold in connection with the Father’s love upon Him.
ECR The glory of verse 5 is incommunicable.
JT I should think so.
JHB We do not even expect to see that.
JT What we behold is in verse 24.
JHB You said at the beginning you had the assembly before you. How does all this bear on that line?
JT Link on the first verse with the last. He lifts up His eyes and says, “Father”. It is after He spoke “these words” (chapters 13 - 16), suggesting the culmination. This is what He leads us to, that we might be able to say, “Father”. Then there is the love of the Father to the Son, what is proper to the assembly, not simply covenant love but the kind of love that is between the Persons themselves. I think it is a great thing to see that there is something beyond covenant love, something between the Persons themselves that we are brought into.
WH What is the meaning of “Righteous Father”?
[p. 173] JT That is over against the world. In this chapter, there is “Father”, “Holy Father”, and “Righteous Father”. “Righteous Father” is over against the world, as He says, “The world has not known thee, but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me”.
JAP “I in them” is a matter of affection.
JT As in their hearts in that way, He has room to come in in service.
COB What is the setting of “Holy Father”?
JT Sanctification, I suppose. “Holy Father, keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one as we”. Then He goes on to say in verse 16, “They are not of the world, as I am not of the world. Sanctify them by the truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world; and I sanctify myself for them, that they also may be sanctified by truth”. It is a sanctified company.
COB Would it stand against the son of perdition? You get the world against “Righteous Father” and the son of perdition against “Holy Father”.
JT There is not much distinction between the two thoughts. The idea in “Holy Father” is that there is to be a sanctified company to enter into the service of the assembly, in spite of conditions externally. The full result is indicated in Ephesians 3.
JHB What do you refer to in Ephesians?
JT Glory to God “in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages” (verse 21). That is a service carried on in suitable conditions.
ECR What is the difference between “sanctified by truth” — “Thy word is truth” — and “I sanctify myself for them”?
JT “Sanctify myself for them” is His present place on high. It alludes to His setting Himself apart for us.
WRP [p. 174] Do you think the service of the assembly goes more on the line of family relationship if you bring it into Ephesians as drawing near to the Father?
JT Yes.
Rem Covenant relationship would not carry us so far.
JT That goes on to Israel. Just another word on the question of being sanctified by truth: “Thy word is truth”. It is the Father’s word that comes into our souls. Then it says, “As thou hast sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world; and I sanctify myself for them, that they also may be sanctified by truth”. First it is “Thy word”; here it is by truth in general.
MW Referring to verse 24, do we understand that that privilege is open to us now, the Lord’s desire that we may be with Him where He is?
JT I think it is future properly to be with Him where He is. It is not that we should behold the Lord, but be with Him where He is. The great place that truth has in chapter 17 should be well marked: sanctified by truth, first by the Father’s word, and then by truth in relation to the position of Christ as sanctifying Himself on our account.
— G. Would that mean that the assembly’s position on earth would be in moral accord with His position on high?
JT That is His desire. The truth as to Christ’s present place in view of the testimony here and the Spirit having come, is a great point.
ECR Does it involve the present communications of the Spirit at all?
JT The Lord differentiates between what He says, and what the Father says.