WATER
WATER
Exodus 17:1 - 16; Numbers 20:2 - 13
JT Lately some of us have been looking at the water of purification in John’s gospel, which alludes to the death of Christ as cleansing us from the state effected in us by sin, not as dealing with our sins, but from the state caused by sin. In John’s gospel there is also the drinking of water, which is another thing, water viewed in another way, as a type of the Holy Spirit, which is always refreshing and vivifying. It is from this standpoint of the water in John 4 and 7 that these scriptures in Exodus 17 and Numbers 20 should be considered. The water for drinking is a subject that is specially calculated to help young christians, because we are apt to be so general in treating types, so that the water of purification is not distinguished in our minds from the water of refreshment and life. There are two features of water running through Scripture.
Ques Where does this come in, “Every one that has this hope in him purifies himself” (1 John 3:3)?
JT That is the water of purification. So that John in his epistle speaks of the water flowing from the side of Christ before the blood, but in his gospel he speaks of the blood first. The water cleanses us from the practical effect of sin in us, it is the death of Christ viewed in that figure of water.
Here in Exodus 17 it is a question of people thirsting and complaining in their thirst. Young christians are apt to be dissatisfied with what they are brought into though having christian parents and being brought up outwardly in the truth; they are like the Israelites here who all passed through the Red Sea, and were all baptised unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea and all ate the same spiritual meat and drank the [p. 20] same spiritual drink, but still they were contentious and dissatisfied. Young believers may not always say so but there is dissatisfaction and I think this chapter would help to show how the Lord Jesus suffered that they might have the Holy Spirit.
Ques How does Marah come in? It is earlier than this?
JT It is akin, a sort of combination of the water of purification and the water of refreshment. It was brackish but capable of being made sweet by the wood thrown into it, typical of Christ Himself. The wood in these early books is a type of Christ viewed as a Man here. So that the two waters coalesce in that way; the water of death was bitter and brackish, almost as bad as if they had not any, but it is capable of being made sweet. It is the cleansing effect of the water of purification, as we have it in John 2, capable of being made sweet like wine, which maketh glad; it is stimulating. Generally speaking, the Red Sea is a figure of baptism; the drinking of it at Marah is a type of baptism. According to Romans 6 we see that Christ’s having been into death has changed its character for us; then there is what is sweet, the Spirit becomes that in our souls, sustaining us in our souls.
Ques If a young convert gets a bad conscience as to something he is going on with, what is the remedy?
JT The first thing is to tell God that he is guilty of it. If it were my case or your case that is what we would do, get down before God and tell Him about it; tell the brethren too, that would be a wholesome thing. Then there is the application of the death of Christ. “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins” (1 John 1:9).
HMcM What the psalmist says is, “Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his path?” (Psalm 119:9).
JT Then the Spirit of God is so considerate of us that He furnishes a scripture to meet that person.
[p. 21] The cleansing of the leper in Leviticus helps. God takes very great pains where sin appears. Chapters 13 and 14 of Leviticus show how the soul is relieved and made clean. You will find in the types that sometimes a thing happens and you are not made clean till the evening. In other occurrences you are not made clean for seven days, and even for longer sometimes. So that God does not let us off, He chastens us so that we will not go that way again: “He that has suffered in the flesh has done with sin” (1 Peter 4:1). We ought to see that God takes account of our weakness and inability to take things in, but He will give us to understand that if we do these things and there is the allowance of sin, we cannot escape. But as we go on and experience these things, sin becomes more and more terrible in our eyes; we begin to see how bad it is.
AL “He that has suffered in the flesh has done with sin”. What is the character of the suffering?
JT I think there is suffering; you cannot escape. Where sin has to be dealt with on account of something you have done, there must be suffering. Christ had to suffer for it in the most excruciating way; to look at this is what tends to make us suffer and deepens our spirituality, that we have to do with God — God who is not mocked. “Thy God is a consuming fire” (Hebrews 12:29). It is love, corrective, not punitive — but suffering lies there.
Rem There is the other side, that those who do not indulge the flesh suffer.
JT Yes, no doubt that is true also. But a sense of having sinned, as seen with David and others, involves suffering.
Ques Would the man who is unclean till the evening feel it?
JT I am sure he would. All that day he would be in a miserable state, although he might have had the word from God that he is forgiven, there is the [p. 22] effect that has to be removed. It says here they “journeyed from the wilderness of Sin, after their journeys, according to the commandment of the Lord, and pitched in Rephidim: and there was no water for the people to drink. Wherefore the people did chide with Moses, and said, Give us water that we may drink” (Exodus 17:1,2). Yet they had seen wonderful things. They were themselves witnesses of the mighty power of God present in the cloud. So that young people brought up amongst the saints see the thing, what God is to His people, yet they may complain.
Rem I should have complained if I had been there.
JT No doubt you did in your youth and so did I, but that is why we can tell young people about it now and help them to avoid it.
HB It seems to have been taken up as a challenge as to whether Jehovah is among them or not.
JT It is a test. “Wherefore do ye tempt the Lord?”, Moses says. They complained against Moses, but Moses represented God. So that when young people begin to complain about the elder brethren, saying there is nothing much amongst us and so on, well that is complaining against God, that is what the enemy is aiming at.
Ques Did Gideon raise a similar question? “If the Lord be with us, why then is all this befallen us?” (Judges 6:13).
JT It is what you see ofttimes, as if God was not there. God does not like that. He is very patient however and there is no rebuke for the people here. God is very patient with the young, but the time will come when He will have to rebuke them, and there may be penalties. This complaining is met by authority in Exodus 17. Moses is to take the rod with which he smote the river, he and the elders of Israel; it is a question of authority, and what is to [p. 23] be noted is that although the rock is smitten, it does not say that the people drank. They are hardly credited with being able to drink, but the water is there. What is needed at this point is the authority of God, and the assertion that someone has to suffer if this case is to be met. I do not suffer, but Christ has to suffer. Moses was told to go on before the people and take the elders of Israel and the staff “wherewith thou smotest the river, take in thine hand, and go”. A great matter; the rock is to be smitten, that is Christ had to be smitten.
Ques. Why is it Horeb?
JT It is the same range as Sinai but rather denotes grace. Somebody has to suffer, that is what we forget, this condition has to be met, it does not please God; the Sufferer is Christ.
Ques Would this touch our affections as to the sufferings of Christ?
JT That is what I thought. If we are sensitive at all this ought to touch us.
Ques Is there a word as to the elders; they go on?
JT Yes, they do not fall down to the level of the complaining people. But what a leader we have! Moses ought to be regarded as a type of Christ; it is the combination of authority, and yet there is suffering in mind — a smitten Christ.
Ques They were all there by the command of Jehovah. If this is done in the sight of the elders should they be intelligent as to what is being done?
JT That is the idea; they are the elders in the assembly — “the assembly in the wilderness” — to suggest to us that it is God’s thought that they should know and reason with the young, with all those who complain. They are witnesses now of things that have happened before them. These elders can give an account of what happened. In Numbers 20 all [p. 24] the assembly is gathered, not only the elders; it is an advanced thought.
Ques Is the truth of the Spirit’s presence confined to a few at first?
JT That is right. It is a principle that God is witnessed to, “ye are witnesses” Paul says (1 Thessalonians 2:10). That is the idea here: the complainers have to be testified to. If there be not this element of headship in any meeting, there is great weakness; it needs intelligence and experience to witness to what happened. That is how the assembly was inaugurated, on the principle of witness.
Ques Do you not think many young people go on with soul difficulties because there is no one to meet them?
JT There is a need of elders. We cannot face these matters and have them adjusted without experience with God. These elders who went forward with Moses saw what happened. A most solemn matter! Jehovah was there, Moses was there, and the elders were there; the rock was smitten and the water flowed. But for the moment the point is not that the people drank; they are really not in a fit state to drink; when there is complaining like this a process has to be gone through. The Holy Spirit is given to persons; God gives the Spirit, but the point here is that it is given through the sufferings of Christ, not through His exaltation, but through His sufferings. When He is exalted to heaven it is not a question of smiting, but of speaking as in Numbers 20. People are ready now to drink, and God says, “Speak ye unto the rock”. Moses smote it, but that was in rebellion. In spite of his rebellious act the water flowed. That is to bring out the wonderful character of the dispensation, that in spite of the clerical system, in spite of rebellion, the water flows and flows abundantly, so that the people and their cattle drink; there is abundance of water.
[p. 25] Ques How do you connect the conflict at the end of the chapter with what we have had?
JT That is to bring out the state of the people. In their complaining Satan had come in through Amalek, now they have got conflict, agonising conflict, because it is up and down, Amalek prevailed sometimes — how serious that is! In these complainings we have not judged ourselves at all. The enemy is only too ready to attack, and he does attack. This prevailing has to be understood.
Ques Would this be like the spirit of complaint seen early in Acts?
JT Yes, the enemy comes in there. He got in in chapter 5, in the sin of Ananias and Sapphira, which was dealt with summarily. Then in chapter 6 they complained because their widows were neglected, a convenient thing to say; it was a national thing, a question of the Hellenists complaining of the Hebrews, that a certain section of the saints were neglected.
HB Why is it “thy staff” in the first part of chapter 17 and the “staff of God” in the conflict?
JT Well, it represents experience, something to lean on. God says to Moses, “What is that in thy hand?” when He took him up first. What have you got in the way of experience? God says, ‘I will use that’. It became the staff of God though it was Moses’ really, as God said, “See, I have made thee God to Pharaoh” (Exodus 7:1). In principle every minister is representative of God. Experience is what makes an elder — your experience with God.
AWR God would encourage him as at the riverside (Exodus 7:20).
JT He knew the power that was in the staff. That makes the thing all the more serious as to complaining against the elder brethren, because they represent God in measure. There can be no testimony here without representation of God, hence “ordain elders in every city” (Titus 1:5), or “assembly” (Acts 14:23); it is a question of authority based on experience or qualification. You can have no testimony without that.
HB We find later that the nobles of the people had staves.
JT Quite so. John had one too. At Patmos he had a stave to measure things with.
Ques What is the idea in verse 14?
JT Joshua is, I think, a type of Christ here, only in a small way, not yet as the great military leader. When the enemy is attacking, complaining having come in, I begin to see I am powerless, and then the Lord comes in. He is waiting for that opportunity, you acknowledge your weakness. The Lord is ready to come in then; He says as it were, ‘I am taking this matter up’; He gives you to understand that. Even if Joshua does take it up, it is dependent upon intercession above. God is on my side in this, in spite of my complaining spirit.
AL How would you bring in Aaron and Hur upholding the hands of Moses?
JT We have to take these things as negative, they come in to show the perfection in Christ, He does not need an Aaron and Hur. It is well that we should feel the position as weak: we have got to go through this now, and it looks as if after all I may be defeated. It is to make me see the seriousness of complaining against God, and the elders and Moses.
AL It fluctuates because of our weakness, and in seeking to do things in our own strength.
JT I think so. They complain, and the enemy gets in and they get into trouble. It looks as if you may be defeated. What comes out is that the whole divine system is in my favour, Aaron and Moses and Hur and Joshua; all that God has, the very best, are all in my favour. When I see that it makes a man [p. 27] of me. I am connected with this great system that God has set up. The Holy Spirit is present now. Though it does not say they drank, the inference is that they did, the principle is there. So the first writing you get in Scripture is in favour of young christians.
Ques Do you think this is an effort of the enemy to keep young people from drinking the water?
JT I begin to learn to be a military man now, all through my own folly.
Ques Is this the beginning of the conflict that leads to spirituality?
JT “Choose us men”, it says in verse 9, implying that you are to choose yourself. Young people are apt to have a critical spirit. Moses says to Joshua, “Choose us men”. The principle is that the great divine system is all in my favour.
HB Does that imply that the whole position is at stake? Should the spirit of intercession mark us too?
JT I think it includes the saints’ intercession too, although it is on high; all intercession is on high, that is our position morally.
Ques Would it have in view that young christians should distinguish between the flesh and the Spirit?
JT That is how the truth is developed in young people. They begin to see power outside themselves. It is Christ known spiritually. I believe Romans 8 gives you Joshua. In Joshua, the Lord Himself takes our place and becomes Captain of the Lord’s host. Romans works this out.
AL Here it is Massah and Meribah. In the second case only Meribah.
JT It is taken up spiritually in Deuteronomy 33:8, “And of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, and with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah”. I believe the priesthood comes out here.
AWR Why does the altar come in here (verse 15)?
JT I think the thought is that it is worship. You see that progress has been made; an altar brought in is to remind us that some headway has been made. God is going to get something out of this.
HB Does the name Jehovah-nissi suggest a definite experience with God?
JT That is what is meant. You can put a name on it. That is the principle running through Scripture. When you have put a name on it you have learnt something. The war is to be carried on, Satan would put his hand on the throne. God will not have that. He wants to be on the throne of our hearts. Satan would get hold of you and slay you.
Ques Was there an attempt of Satan in Luke 10:17? “Even the demons are subject to us”.
JT Yes, quite so. The Lord saw the full end of Satan. The first great conflict was with the devil himself. ‘The Lord is my banner’ is the one who has dealt with the enemy Himself.
Rem You think this fluctuating experience is chiefly in the young?
JT I think not. The most spiritual of us may come under the influence of the flesh and Satan might get an advantage. But you would be recovered quickly. I know how to use the armour of God, whereas the young christian may not.
Rem Every victory would build up a young believer.
JT It is a great thing to see that the Lord is here, that is Joshua. I think it is the first glimpse the young believer gets that Christ is a military Leader on my part against the enemy. Satan entered into Judas, and even Peter was turned against God.
HB Romans concludes “The God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly” (chapter 16:[p. 29] 20).
JT That is the sort of thing. He is under Christ’s feet now, but he is going to be under our feet.
Rem Satan would hinder Paul coming to Rome.
JT Yes. Paul was greatly afraid that the devil might get in amongst the young christians.
Ques Would “and his people” in verse 13 be spoiling his goods?
JT Well, just so. That indicates what this conflict is. The eye is directed to Christ. Our Joshua broke the power of Satan, He took away the strong man’s armour in which he trusted. Then at the cross He annulled him who has the might of death.
HB Is Numbers 20 more the thought of the assembly?
JT It is more advanced. Moses is there, of course, and Aaron too, but it says in verse 8, “Gather the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes”. But in spite of the disobedience of Moses, as seen in verse 11, the water flowed to bring out the character of the dispensation. In spite of man’s disobedience in the service of God the water flows. Otherwise we should not have so much ministry as we are getting now. In spite of the rebellion of the servants in the great hierarchical system, the water flows. God caused the water to flow. The principle here is speaking to the Rock. Why should I not speak to God? If I have need in my soul it is a time for speaking, a time for prayer. “How much rather shall the Father who is of heaven give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?” (Luke 11:13), showing the character of the dispensation, that it is a time of asking.
Rem The assembly are able to drink here.
JT We are on a high level here, a state of intelligence contemplated in the assembly. You were saying, Mr. I., something about Elisha seeing Elijah go up; that would be in keeping with it.
FI You cannot come into the good of this [p. 30] in your soul unless you are in the good of Christ in heaven.
Ques Would you say that the action of the Spirit here is in accord with Christ in heaven?
JT The Holy Spirit really comes down. He is sent down, we are told. Sufferings are the prominent thing in Exodus 17, whereas the speaking is the prominent thing here; there is no need of smiting here. Christ is in heaven; it is now a time of speaking. The staff contemplates that you are fit to be used; this staff can be used. Moses represents the ministerial side and he is qualified to be used. The staff represents previous experience.
HB Was the breakdown that he used the staff in the wrong way?
JT He was not to use it at all. It was to be Aaron’s staff, which denotes the priesthood of Christ. It contemplates the whole christian position. Moses is the ministerial side of it. The smiting the rock was disobedience — the whole hierarchy is included in this. In spite of that the water flowed, and flowed in abundance, God having His way after all. It was the priest’s staff that had budded; that is resurrection. If He were on earth He would not be a priest, but He is in heaven and hence there is plenty of water. What follows is the brotherly spirit in Israel now. We have to do with brethren all round us, like Edom. Are we going to be sons of peace with them? “Thus saith thy brother Israel” (verse 14). We are speaking as brethren now. There are people around us, our brethren, but they will not listen to us. What are you going to do — fight with them? No, it says, “Israel turned away from him”. You do not want to quarrel with the brethren around, you have to leave them. Here they are in keeping with the mind of God. There are thousands of brethren around us; what we want to do is to go through. Israel were not going to take anything from them.
[p. 31] Ques What would you say we get in the next chapter as to the springing well, and then the thought of Sihon and Og coming in?
JT That is another feature of the flesh also. They were speaking not only against Moses but against God, a terrible state of things. And what meets it is Beer, the digging by the princes with their staves. Moses is not the only one to have a staff now; the elders have got staves; authority is used now to bring in refreshment.