THE PERFECTING OF THE SAINTS
[p. 351] THE PERFECTING OF THE SAINTS
Acts 11:19 - 26; Ephesians 4:11 - 16
JT The proposal is to consider the perfecting of the saints as a marked feature of the ministry of the apostle Paul. After the death of Stephen, many were scattered from Jerusalem, all, indeed, “except the apostles”, and we are told in the passage read in Acts 11 that they went as far as Antioch and preached not only to Jews but to the gentiles, so that a great many believed and turned to the Lord. We are not told who these people were by name, nor is it said that they were sent, so that we have to regard them — to use a common expression — as unskilled in their work. Philip, even, who preached at Samaria, is not said to have been sent, nor is he said, till afterwards, to have been an evangelist, but in his case, and in the case of those who went to Antioch, there were results from the numerical point of view, and, not only so, but they “turned to the Lord”, we are told in our chapter, and, indeed, were “added to the Lord”. But still, in both cases, skilled labourers were required to carry on the work in the souls of these converts. In the case of those at Samaria, they did not even receive the Spirit immediately. Peter and John came down from Jerusalem so that they should receive the Spirit, and found indeed a condition there that would have been extremely detrimental to the work had they not discerned it. Peter discerned the state of soul of Simon Magus. And in chapter 11 at Antioch, Barnabas came also from Jerusalem, and the Spirit tells us “he was a good man and full of the Holy Spirit”, for as he arrived he recognised the work. He also discerned that other ability, another workman, was needed besides what was there, and he went and sought out Saul, we are told, and found him,
[p. 352] and brought him to Antioch, and he and Saul taught a great crowd in the assembly for a whole year. The object in bringing all this forward is that we should be reminded of the need of perfecting, that numbers, while to be valued in themselves as having light and a measure of knowledge of God through the gospel, need to be perfected, that, indeed, the work today for those who have the Lord’s mind, who know Him as Head in the assembly, is largely to perfect what the Lord brings forward of the labours of others. Much has been done abroad in christendom for which we can thank God, but very little of it, alas! is available for the assembly in a practical sense, and the Lord would lay it upon us, as having any knowledge of Christ as Head and the assembly as His body, to see to the perfecting of what there is, that there may be something for God. That is what comes out at Antioch, that there was an assembly there; after the service of these skilled men for a year there was something there for God: “they ministered to the Lord, and fasted”. Perhaps the latter is as great an evidence of perfecting as the former — ability to fast.
CAC Does that begin with individual labour? Paul speaks of presenting “every man perfect in Christ” (Colossians 1:28).
JT It would show how much is in mind. In Ephesians it is, “until we all arrive”, with a view to the body, the organism, edifying itself. Evidently ministry can only go so far. God uses it to perfect us in the sense that our senses are all in action, that things are normal with us spiritually, so that there is growth “until we all arrive at the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, at the full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ; in order that we may be no longer babes”. Apprehending the organism, that is, what we are as related to one another by the Spirit, there is self-edifying [p. 353] in love.
ELM Do you see the same thing in Ezra’s day? They discovered there was a lack of Levites, and Ezra sent some back to Babylon to bring further help in relation to the remnant that was recovered from Babylon, and “by the good hand of our God” (Ezra 8:18) certain men were brought to light.
JT Ezra himself represented the skilled side, the priestly side of the ministry. We have his genealogy given so that there is no doubt as to who he is from the standpoint of spirituality and refined thoughts. So that we get with him not only number but weight — quality.
SJBC Are the gifts persons here, or are they gifts given to persons? “He gave some”, it says, and also, “Gave gifts unto men”. Would the gifts be universal here?
JT These are persons — apostles, prophets, evangelists, and so on. But what is to be noted is that Saul at the beginning had no converts from his preaching. Peter had three thousand from his first address, but we hear nothing of converts of Paul’s for some years after he began to preach. That is, we have to learn how to think of quality in our service. At the outset, young men are apt to think of quantity, of outward results from what they are doing, but in this great vessel we do not get any converts at the outset, although we get preaching and we get him a whole year labouring here in Antioch, not in the gospel, as we speak of it ordinarily, but teaching in the assembly.
CAC Were things ever perfected at Jerusalem?
JT I do not think they were. What had you in mind to say about that?
CAC I was thinking of the strong trend of legal influence that remained there, and that even acted upon Paul himself later, indicating an imperfect condition of [p. 354] things.
JT The Lord had said that if they were persecuted in one city they should flee to another. Apparently they all did save the apostles, and those that fled seem to have been the ones used. As regards the apostles remaining at Jerusalem, whilst they gave further evidence of the patience of God, and whilst God worked with them too and there were results, it was not His mind that the truth of the church should be developed there. It was His mind that the full testimony of the gospel should be presented there as marking the dispensation, but what was in His mind as a vessel of testimony here was evidently reserved for Paul, and the way the converts were withheld, or the non-mention of them, from Paul’s ministry at the outset, is something for us to notice. It cannot be alleged that God is not with us because of the lack of these outward evidences. We have to consider whether there is any perfecting going on. I think that is a word for all who would essay to serve or who are serving in a small way, to have in mind that the ministry of the greatest vessel was not marked by great outward results at first. It is as if God would remind him that, whilst there were many converts through the testimony of the twelve and others, these needed perfecting.
EuR Is the exercise that those who had previously been characterised as a crowd might become intelligent as to functioning as an assembly?
JT That is what we shall see if we pursue the history. After the first missionary journey, Paul and Barnabas chose them elders in every assembly. Titus was told to appoint elders in every city, but they chose them elders in every assembly, meaning that they were to be set up in themselves severally with the means of going on and serving God — self-edifying. That is what was in mind. You do not get that with Peter and John. There was a great numerical result at Pentecost and what followed.
[p. 355] We are told in chapter 4 that there were five thousand converts, a great outward genuine result, the work of God manifestly there in the description given of them, but there is no special allusion to the thought of forming assemblies. Not that they were not formed, because the assemblies are spoken of, but Paul makes a point of ordaining elders in each assembly.
EuR It says even of the work at Antioch that “the report concerning them reached the ears of the assembly which was in Jerusalem”.
JT Showing that the thought was there, and God would have us respect the assembly, that it was still with Him thoroughly, so much so that it had ears — a very great tribute to it — and a readiness to send out persons to help. All that is metropolitan, but it is not perfecting. The dispensation is not to be marked by a metropolis on earth, but a metropolis in heaven, and that comes in under Paul.
COB Would you say that we should not be discouraged if there is a lack of converts from our preaching?
JT We ought not to rest content if there is a lack of converts. One is not bringing forward these things today to suggest that we should relax any efforts in the gospel, because the apostle Paul did get wonderful results, even numerically, in due course, but I think the way the facts are presented is intended to put it upon us to have quality before us, not to belittle what is being done around us by others, not to forbid anyone, but to get a hold on what there is in order that it should be perfected. That was in the mind of Barnabas in seeking out Saul, that what was there, that is a large number of converts, should be perfected — and they were perfected. Instead of those two great servants saying, We must go on with the gospel, we must get the gospel before all, they settled down to teach for a [p. 356] year, according to this account, and in the assembly. It was not simply teaching with a view to the assembly, but in it, that is, the idea was there in the teaching.
Ques Would the exhortation of Barnabas for “all with purpose of heart to abide with the Lord”, lead up to perfecting?
JT Yes; if you abide with Him, He will look after you till perfecting comes.
Rem I thought it was remarkable that it is “with the Lord”.
JT Could he have put them in better keeping? If saints who are wanting in the truth of the assembly cleave to the Lord, it will come. That is what He has in mind. You may say, Why did not the Lord teach them Himself? That is simply to ignore His way, that He provides special persons for the purpose, that He has His own workmen, and we must find them if they are to be found. Barnabas found this man and brought him to the spot. May we not say it was the Lord that Barnabas had prayed to about this matter and he had asked Him about it, and the Lord went with him every step to Tarsus, and was with him in finding Saul and inclining him to go back with him, and filling Saul’s heart with what was needed? The Lord was in all that, and the Spirit of God tells us just what happened outwardly, so that those two men should be before us in the idea of skilled labour.
HEF Are you implying that, if those servants are not found in a local company, we should seek them out and bring them there?
JT That is the thought — if they are to be found, if they are available, why not get them? That is what comes out here. In chapter 9, Peter is sent for from Joppa; Cornelius sends for him, and Barnabas goes for Saul. That is, there are men for the work, and if we are with God we will ask Him about those [p. 357] men. If He has them, where are they? And if they are available, avail ourselves of them. It is a question of honouring what God does. Hence in Ephesians it says, “He has given some apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists, and some shepherds and teachers”. He gave them with perfect wisdom according to the need and their measure — “some”, it says.
Rem It perhaps requires considerable grace to go for somebody else when there is a work going on.
JT I think it does; it is an acknowledgment of our own insufficiency that is always wholesome. God may order it that we are insufficient, but sufficiency is elsewhere; there is an equalising in that. On the other hand, we are to make the most of what there is in a locality. “What is under thy hand?” (1 Samuel 21:3), David said to Ahimelech. We have to use that, but if there is insufficiency, it is well to acknowledge it and not pretend it is not there.
GEG Is there any special thought in the idea of a whole year?
JT God appointed the seasons at the beginning: “seed time and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter”. I suppose the cycle brings out certain conditions that test us, and it is well to go through the year.
EuR With the brethren.
JT Yes. We read of Paul wintering with them (1 Corinthians 16:6). A whole year would give occasion for the actual conditions in the great crowd that had already believed in Antioch to come to light.
CAC Is there any distinction between the power of the Spirit acting relative to numbers as at Pentecost and the power of the ascended Christ conferring gifts with a view to perfecting? Is the perfecting connected with the power of the ascended Christ, perhaps as distinct from the power of the Spirit down here?
JT [p. 358] I suppose there is a distinction, not that the gifts do not come under the Spirit, but the link with an ascended Christ, as you suggest, is of great importance in this matter, for what is in mind is heavenly, what is to be perfected is for heaven.
CAC Evangelical christendom has got some thought of the power of the Spirit to effect conversions and the like, but is there any thought of what is the expression of the ascended Christ? All would be skilled labourers who were given from heaven, surely.
JT They are classified, showing that in heaven the idea of skill has great place. The Lord has gone up as the great Masterbuilder Himself. “On this rock”, He says, “I will build my assembly” (Matthew 16:18). So that the classification of the workmen as from heaven is very suggestive, that it is not beneath the counsels up there to classify labourers and give them in measure — “some”, heaven knowing well what was needed for the foundation, and what was needed following on that in prophets, and what was needed following on that in evangelists, and what was needed following on that in pastors and teachers. It is very suggestive as to how things are thought of in heaven, for the incoming of heaven after the Spirit came, in various ways, links on with all this; that is, heaven thinks of what is needed and acts with perfect wisdom in supplying what is needed, but all to one end, for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, the ministry being the great general thought. The work of the ministry is to be carried on in a skilled way and not haphazardly.
HEF Why do you think the evangelists are put third? We should have thought they might have come first.
JT That is heaven’s wisdom, heaven’s way. There must be a foundation, and I suppose apostolic service is foundational, according to what we get in the heavenly city. The prophet is to bring God in,
[p. 359] not that the apostles were not all prophets doubtless they all were, but it is the order, one, two, three. If you have apostolic service, the prophetic service brings God in; God is there.
EuR And that makes a man fall down on his face.
JT Quite so. “God is known in her palaces for a refuge”, (Psalm 48:3).
SJBC Is the “full-grown man” individual or collective?
JT It is a great general thought, the same as the new man.
HEF Then would the evangelist have in view the bringing in of material for the assembly?
JT Yes. You have the foundational thought fully there and developed, and God being there. I apprehend the prophet brings God in and is concerned about all that would affect God; the gift of the prophet is that God is brought in in power — not simply mentioned but brought in in power. The evangelist is for addition. What you get in the Acts are conditions for additions, first the conditions and then the additions. When Joseph was born, Rachel said, “Jehovah will add to me another son” (Genesis 30:24), and on that, Jacob immediately thought of leaving, but he did not leave, but remained and added earthly things which only hindered him. What was really needed was Benjamin, and Benjamin is added in Canaan.
HEF Then, referring to Luke 10, would you say that when the Samaritan found the man who fell among thieves there were conditions to which he could bring him and in which he could leave him?
JT Yes, the inn. You get in Acts 2 that “there were added in that day about three thousand souls”, but before you get that there are beautiful conditions for addition. Then you get a description of those three thousand and the whole position at Jerusalem so beautifully given at the end of that chapter: “They persevered in the teaching and fellowship of the [p. 360] apostles, in breaking of bread and prayers. And fear was upon every soul, and many wonders and signs took place through the apostles’ means. And all that believed were together, and had all things common ...”. They were together, and “the Lord added to the assembly daily those that were to be saved”. The conditions were there. Then, in chapter 5, the severe discipline administered to Ananias and Sapphira brought in other conditions. The additions were not hindered, and it says, “and believers were more than ever added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women”, and they were in Solomon’s porch, that is, the additions were in that relation.
EuR Would you have us concerned in any locality as to whether the conditions are such to which the Lord can add?
JT Yes — conditions for additions.
EuR Is that suggested in Acts 11, that, as the result of the teaching, right conditions were brought about in that the disciples were first called christians?
JT The work is dignified in putting that name upon them. That is not stated until after the year’s work of those great servants.
SJBC I suppose they were called christians because they were so much like Christ.
JT That is the inference. It is not simply that outsiders called them that, but God had part in it and ordered that it should be so.
EuR Does it link on with 1 Corinthians 12:12: “So also is the Christ”?
JT Pretty much; it is an honour to what was there after the year’s service.
HES Do the evangelists then secure the material, and are the pastors and teachers for the perfecting of it?
JT The pastors and teachers come in after the evangelists, because the saints viewed as a flock [p. 361] need to be looked after in a shepherdly way and taught in detail.
Ques Should all these gifts be found functioning in any one assembly?
JT Well, you would not look for apostles now, of course, but it is well to get the great general position at the outset, as has been remarked, from an ascended Christ. It is most interesting to think of an ascended Christ thinking of all this and providing classified labourers so that the ministry should go on: “with a view to the work of the ministry”. The ministry is a great dignified thought, and is to be marked by skill. “As a wise architect”, the apostle says — the allusion is to the skill with which he laid the foundation — “I have laid the foundation, but another builds upon it”.
SJBC “Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets” (Ephesians 2:20). The foundation is laid now because the structure is going on. The apostles and prophets had to do with the foundations.
JT It is to bring out the quality of the foundations, the very best possible.
SJBC So that the thought of apostolic succession is laying a series of foundations really.
JT Yes.
Ques Should not the thought of perfecting weigh with us in inviting brethren to a locality for special meetings?
JT I think so. All these meetings would have that in view. It is a question of ministry: “with a view to the work of the ministry”. As it says, “For the perfecting of the saints ... until we all arrive”. That is, there is an end in view. It is not that we should have a big meeting in W — ; the point is the perfecting of the saints, and with the universal outlook. So that the idea of sending for a qualified workman is quite in order, the one that will suit best for the moment. Of course, we have not got much [p. 362] now; it is well to admit our deficiency, and the Lord would have us to accept things as they are, but the word is, What have you got? — “What is under thy hand?”, David said when rejected (1 Samuel 21:3) — to make the best use of what we have got, and the Lord has provided for these meetings. It is well to have in mind that there are those who may be better suited than others for the particular occasion, and I think that is what we get here. The first two that were sent out from Jerusalem to perfect the work of others were Peter and John, an excellent combination for what was needed at Samaria. When we think of what the woman said to the Lord, we can understand that what was current at Samaria was rivalry of Jerusalem. When there is anything like that you need some particular workmanship, because rivalry is always detrimental to the work of God, and God withheld the Spirit from them until Peter and John came down. When it was given, you can understand what exercises there would be. Why did we not get the Spirit at once? The Samaritans had to learn something from that. They did not get the Spirit at once; they did not get it until Peter and John came down and prayed that they might get Him. It is as if heaven was considering all this, that Samaria will have to be brought down. The Lord said to the woman, “Ye worship ye know not what” — they were full of rivalry — “we worship what we know”. That is, He would assert the positive thing, that there is something that God can point to: “we worship what we know”. There is that today; there are those who know, and those who do not know may as well learn that they do not know — it is to their good.
EuR This would involve not only concern that there might be right conditions in the local gathering where we may be set, but the recognition that the Lord is well able to maintain similar conditions among [p. 363] His people in every locality. You would regard the saints in each locality on earth where gathered from this standpoint and unify them in that way.
JT That is right. Heaven is in control and operating from its own point of view, not building up any particular gathering for its own sake.
Ques Would you say a word as to the distinction between Ephesians and Corinthians? In Ephesians Christ as the ascended Man gives the gifts for the assembly, but in Corinthians God gives them in regard to the local assembly.
JT You can understand heaven is operating universally. Christ is ascended in Ephesians where the instruction is universal; it is the church as a whole, Jew and gentile brought together and builded “for a habitation of God in the Spirit”. It is the great thought of God as to the assembly as a whole, looking on to the future too. But Corinthians is in the main occupied with local conditions; we do not get evangelists in the gifts in Corinthians. It is humbling that the evangelist is not mentioned, meaning that there were not the conditions there to be added to. Would you say that?
Rem Yes, and I thought there was something special in the fact that they had all the gifts at Corinth, but had to be reminded that they were the sovereign gift of God.
JT What is stressed in Corinthians is the activity of the Spirit, because what was in mind was to bring out the importance of the anointing. So that, while chapter 12 begins with the Spirit, it fully recognises the three divine Persons: “But there are distinctions of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are distinctions of services, and the same Lord; and there are distinctions of operations, but the same God who operates all things in all”. The three Persons are brought in, but having said that, the apostle resumes the question of the Spirit, that the Spirit gives some [p. 364] nine different gifts, leading up to the idea of the anointing: “so also is the Christ”, that in the local company at Corinth — the Greeks known for their wisdom — there should be in the assembly of God that which was infinitely superior to anything seen or known in Greece. All that would allow for the anointing. At the end of the chapter, he refers to the general gifts, and brings in apostles, that is, he widens out, but his concern in the main is as to the anointing and how it works out in the local company organically. So that the Greeks had never seen such a thing as this — the local assembly, “the assembly of God which is in Corinth”.
SJBC Can the spiritual features seen in Philadelphia be expressed in a local company now? Philadelphia does not present an impossibility to us, does it? It actually existed.
JT Quite so: “Thou hast a little power, and hast kept my word”, “Thou hast kept the word of my patience” (Revelation 3:3,10), and so forth. We should certainly have that before us.
Rem One was impressed by the fact that where they were boasting in all these gifts you have brought before us, they were failing to recognise that they were sovereign from God. They were connected with the exalted Man, and the Corinthians should have been rejoicing in all His operations from heaven.
JT It is said of the Spirit, “as he pleases” (verse 11), and similarly of God (verse 18), in 1 Corinthians 12, and then it ends up with “God has set certain in the assembly: first, apostles; secondly, prophets; thirdly, teachers ...” (verse 28). They are in perfect order, firstly, secondly, thirdly, and so on. God calculates in that way, showing how He thinks of what is needed, and how there is the order of one, two, three, in all His calculations to bring us into His mind and into the ordered mind of heaven. So that the instruction ends in chapter 14: “But let all things be done comelily and with order”. We are so extremely loose-ended, whereas God is perfectly in order in everything He does. In His provision for His people He has got order, and we have got to abide by it.
EuR What do you mean when you say we have a tendency to loose-endedness?
JT Because we are not with God. “For God is not a God of disorder”, we are told (1 Corinthians 14:33).
EuR You mean that “thus I ordain in all the assemblies” (1 Corinthians 7:17), would involve the assemblies all rightly ordered of God?
JT Yes, and God is seen in that way. What is in one assembly is in all the assemblies.
EuR Is that the idea in the anointing, that what was set forth in the Lord Jesus at Nazareth, as anointed of Jehovah, is to be seen now in each local gathering?
JT He sets out the great thought. It says, “He has anointed me”. That is what Luke presents, and all must conform to it. Hence the tabernacle was anointed, we are told, first in its parts — the material — that is, every saint is anointed viewed as part of the structure, and then the priestly family is anointed. That is, the same people, only looked at as serving God. So that every saint, old and young, viewed as of the tabernacle, is anointed, for the anointing signifies that God is committed to something, committed to us as in the assembly, that is material, and He is also committed to us as priests to serve Him. The idea is that there is something here in this world in the way of testimony that is of God, and hence infinitely superior to anything religious in this world.
OW Did the perfecting take place in the days of Paul, or is it still to take place?
JT It is going on now. It is the point in this meeting that we should have perfecting in our minds,
[p. 366] that God is finishing things. The assembly is about to be translated, and we should have in mind, even if there be no concrete results numerically, that there is something going on in the way of perfecting. That is the point, I think, whilst not to leave the other undone surely, for the dispensation still stands. God is not willing that any should perish — we must never forget that — but that all should be converted. At the same time, Paul’s calling out in the early part of his ministry points to what God had in mind — quality and the perfecting of what was already there.
SJBC Would the perfecting of the saints be individual? We have to start with the individual.
JT That was said at the beginning, to “present every man perfect in Christ”, but Ephesians is the whole thought. If you are ministering to a number of christians, as the minister has to, you cannot attend to every person — even Paul could not. They taught a crowd for a whole year in the assembly — it was a collective matter, and I believe school is the best place to learn it, to learn with others, not that each is not attended to — each is to be attended to — but it is “until we all arrive at the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, at the full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ; in order that we may be no longer babes”, but full grown, and able to grow together; even if gift or ministry be in a person in a special way, there is the growing together, and self-edifying in love.
ES The apostle speaks of preaching publicly and going from house to house in Acts 20.
JT Quite so.
Ques Would what you say have in view the Lord’s coming?
JT Manifestly so; to “present every man perfect” has that in mind.
EuR “With a view to the edifying of the body of Christ”; would that give us at all times to recognise, whether individually or locally, that we are part of one spiritual whole on earth?
JT Quite so, and this self-edifying in love is a quality which is not contingent upon gift. Gift may not be always present. We are told that Paul laboured a whole year at Antioch, and came back there with Barnabas, and at Corinth we are told the time expressly, but when it expired, he left. What happened after that is another matter. We cannot count on the special gifts being present all the time, but love must be present all the time, and it is in love we grow. Perfecting is one thing, that is what the minister has in mind, but growing is another thing. The thing is to get all the saints uniform, to get them perfect. That is to say, a child at any given age is perfect, there is no malformation, but the growth is the next thing, and that is by love.
EuR So if love is in activity in any local company, however small, the saints in that locality can function in the way you speak of as organically.
JT That is the idea that Paul had in choosing elders in every assembly, that there should be the continuance of growth. I do not suppose he would have left without being sure that things were normal so far.
EuR So, in this thought of perfecting, have you in mind that every brother and sister should be concerned to be a spiritually healthy member in the body?
JT That is right. I think the apostle had in mind before leaving that normal conditions existed, and perfecting implies that a normal state exists, whatever the growth may be, and the elders are chosen for each assembly that there should be that self-containedness locally and growth in love, for an elder should be just a joint [p. 368] of love.
COB What is implied in the “knowledge of the Son of God”?
JT It is the full idea that God has in mind, it is the Son of God as a pattern for us. It is not a question of His deity there, but what He is as Man, the divine thought for men.
EuR As we have in Hebrews, the pattern of things in the heavens?
JT That is right, the heavenly things themselves we have. The Son of God and all that attaches to Him are the heavenly things themselves; in fact, we belong to that.
HES I suppose the Lord has this perfecting in view. Is His thought expressed in the book of Ruth, where Naomi says, “The man will not rest until he have completed the matter this day” (chapter 3:18)?
JT Yes, and he goes into the city to do it.
Ques Do you think the idea of perfecting is connected with the giving of assembly ideas to the saints in contrast to the individual, the individual being more elementary? As the saints are built together they get assembly ideas.
JT That is right. Ephesians contemplates the great general thought of God, what He has in mind. As has been remarked, the gifts are given by the ascended Christ. Think of how heaven looks at things, at things up there! What a great outlook, and what a great end in view, so in truth, it is “the heavenly things themselves”. We are not dealing with patterns, but the “heavenly things themselves” and we are essential to them.
OW Would you say a word as to the distinction between the “Son of God” and the “fulness of the Christ”?
JT A clear knowledge of the Son of God is one thing, and then there is the “measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ”. I think the anointing is in mind in the Christ, that is, what God has in the [p. 369] Man of His right hand. The Son of God is a great inward thought. “Dost thou believe on the Son of God?”, the Lord said to one (John 9:35). It is a great inward thought leading us out of the world into another world. Still, it is the idea of One who does things for God, the One who carries out His will.
EuR And do we need to recognise all gift as the present activity of the love and service of the ascended Man towards the assembly?
JT Yes. The ascended Christ is a great thought to have before us. “He that descended is the same who has also ascended up above all the heavens, that he might fill all things; and he has given some apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists, and some shepherds and teachers, for the perfecting of the saints; with a view to the work of the ministry, with a view to the edifying of the body of Christ; until we all arrive at the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, at the full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ”. What a great thought that is, and especially if we link it in our minds with Him who gives the gifts up there.
EuR So things are going forward, you might almost say, triumphantly, and accomplishing the divine end on these lines.
JT And we want to get into line with all that. The thing exists. In any local gathering there is self-edifying in love. Love is the great thing; it never fails us.
Ques Do you connect the apostle’s ministry with an ascended Christ?
JT Quite so.
Ques Is the ministry of Peter and the eleven more connected with the Spirit, in that way?
JT That is what has been remarked, but heaven began to move in a light from heaven, and then a sheet from heaven, and all that underlies the apostle’s [p. 370] ministry. So it is a question of what is in heaven, and what is stated in heaven, and hence the need for perfecting.
EuR If there is self edifying in the local gathering, gift will function freely when it comes in.
JT Quite so.
WRP You have said nothing about the first clause of verse 13: “Until we all arrive at the unity of the faith”.
JT “The faith” is the system of truth involved, not exactly what is in the Bible, but what was held in the power of the Spirit at the beginning. It is the system of truth. There is “the unity of the Spirit” and “the unity of the faith”.