SONSHIP
[p. 32] SONSHIP
Luke 24:4; Acts 1:9 - 11; Luke 9:30,31
JT My thought was to look at the realm in which men are to be, that is, in the divine domain of sonship; and I thought it would be profitable to consider the kind of being, as we may, in which the thought is expressed, as to the resurrection, then of the ascension, then in the Lord Himself on the mount of transfiguration. Luke says at the outset that the angels were saying, a multitude of them, “Good pleasure in men” (chapter 2:15). That is what a multitude of them were saying according to Luke; he is the only one that tells us these things, showing that heaven is not one angel, but a multitude, and that they are conversant with this great thought of Christ, and very jealous as to it — “Good pleasure in men”. In the first passage they are seen as men, representing the thought; they are “in shining raiment”, indicative of the lustre and glory of the order of manhood now brought in in resurrection. Then we have the shining in “white clothing” in Acts 1:11. Then on the mount of transfiguration it is “two men ... appearing in glory”; their names are given, that is, they have personal distinction, showing that each one will have personal distinction in heaven. But the first thought is men, each having a distinction; each name indicates that. And they are there in dignity too: they are speaking with the Lord. “Lo, two men talked with him, who were Moses and Elias”.
W Does “men” convey the thought of full growth?
JT It does not seem so in this passage, but is rather to bring out the order of being. When God made Adam, He made a complete man, to bring out [p. 33] the order of being. God sets out His great thoughts in the creation; and so in Christ, there is no idea of development in what He brought in. Adam represents the order of being; he is that kind of being.
AWR At the outset does He indicate the adequacy of the testimony to men?
JT That is right. Not ‘good pleasure in man’ but in “men”. God has the plural idea in His mind. We have the thought of man too; John makes much of that. Pilate says according to John, “Behold the man!” (John 19:5). John the baptist calls attention to Him, “Behold the Lamb of God” (John 1:29,36). Attention is called to the Person of Christ, as pre-eminent in the divine thought. The counsels of God require men.
AWR The tabernacle of God is with men; is that a cumulative thought?
JT Quite so. We are all “raised ... up together”. The only single Man that goes into heaven is Christ. Paul goes in in testimony, the Lord goes in alone, but we all go in together. Israel went into the land together. There was no thought of anyone wanting there, of anyone absent. Though the two-and-a-half tribes elected to stay on the other side of Jordan, forty thousand of them went over, the whole of Israel was secured.
HB Does that principle apply, the going into the divine domain together?
JT I think so. You embrace all in affection. Some are not with us, but we have them in mind in the assembly; we think of them. We do not come together in assembly in remnant character, the whole assembly is in mind. The Lord said, “Why persecutest thou me?” (Acts 9:4). That is, the whole assembly is in mind.
Ques So the twelve men found at Ephesus receive the Spirit together?
JT You mean the twelve that Paul found; yes,
[p. 34] that is significant, it was no accident that it was twelve men, they all got the Spirit together, an important matter, suggestive of a good foundation there.
HF Is your thought men in contrast to angels?
JT That is what I thought. The angels are seen, in Luke, as serving without any feeling of envy, multitudes of them, representing the full angelic thought. They are so taken up with what has happened. “God was manifest in the flesh, ... seen of angels” (1 Timothy 3:16). The first time they saw Him was in manhood.
NF What is in your mind as to the three passages read? Are they progressive?
JT The first, Luke 24:4, is how manhood appears in resurrection; the lustre and glory attaching to that order in resurrection. Then in the second scripture, Acts 1:9 - 11 the intelligence as to the ascension, the manner of it, “This same Jesus, which is taken [p. 43] up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven”. The manner of the Lord’s ascension is perceived, “as ye have seen him go”. “If thou see me when I am taken from thee”, Elijah says (2 Kings 2:10). I think wrapped up in this is the manner that becomes us whilst He is away, what goes on in the assembly in the interval. So when they were selecting an apostle it was to be one that had assembled with them “all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us” (Acts 1:21), I think that is what they would convey — the manner of the Lord’s movements — “white clothing”. Then thirdly, Luke 9, those on high appear “in glory” — that is a further thought. John says, “It doth not yet appear what we shall be”(1 John 3:2) — although he saw much, there is something more; but anyway they “appeared in glory”. So that we shall have bodies of glory, the same persons not in bodies of resurrection merely, but in bodies of glory, “fashioned like unto his glorious body” (Philippians 3:[p. 35] 21).
HF They were perfectly at home in that scene.
JT That is what I thought. In heaven we shall be perfectly free to address the Lord; we do not wait for Him to hold out the golden sceptre. Heaven will be a place of liberty.
HF Had you thought that if we enter in spirit into these three passages, we should know something of it now?
JT I think it is to teach us liberty, to teach us the dignity, the liberty that the speaking would suggest. It is the greatness of the Person that is in mind — the Lord is before us — then these two men who were Moses and Elias, were the greatest men you could think of up to that time. They were there and talking to the Lord; they were talking with Him, not He to them. I think the talking was according to what they ministered here, what Moses had been engaged with, what he saw on the Mount, the pattern of the tabernacle; all that would appear to be without effect if this was not so. And so with Elijah.
FI Do you mean that the place of distinction they had here was greater than their service? Each one would be known in his distinctive character in heaven?
JT Our place in heaven will be greater than what we have here as men.
Ques Does that link on with His receiving up in the same chapter?
JT “The days of his receiving up”, corresponding with Man “received up into glory”, the glory being beyond what was here in flesh, or even in resurrection. That is what we are to be conformed to, “His body of glory”, not merely as One risen, but His body of glory.
HB Would these two men suggest the heavenly saints in glorified bodies?
JT Yes, they come out here according to the power of God, representing that He can bring them [p. 36] out for this purpose. Elijah had gone up into heaven even without dying but he did not go up in a glorified body; all that was awaited. “Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming” (1 Corinthians 15:23). These are what you might call provisional, to bring out the thought.
W It is worthwhile laying this up in our souls, how we really stand.
AWR What is the point here in men “in glory” — these two men have their own distinction?
JT We receive our glorious bodies: “afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming” would imply that all still await the consummation of it, even these two men. Although we read in Matthew 27 that many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after His resurrection, we cannot say much about it; it is just a testimony of what God can do.
WA What is suggested in the suddenness with which these things take place?
JT It is suggestive of the possibilities that lie in the Spirit: “Two men suddenly stood by them”. The Spirit in that way would present what is heavenly to us, so that we enter upon it immediately; there should be no need of delay.
WA Does it have any bearing on our present position?
JT I suppose the Lord is working and stirring us up in that way just now, in view of what may happen suddenly at any time. The Lord may continue in testimony. He may do so, but we do not know; the time is ripe in a way.
HB Would it be in contrast with the gradual transformation which is our moral experience?
JT The Lord may come as we are engaged with Himself. These women were looking for the Lord, you know. “As they were in perplexity about it”,
[p. 37] though in perplexity, still they were looking for the Lord.
Ques Is it in the same circumstances that the Spirit comes in in Acts 2? It comes suddenly.
JT I think so. It says, “Behold, two men stood by them” as they were gazing toward heaven in Acts 1. Then in Luke 2 it says, “Suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host”, as the shepherds were caring for their flocks by night.
HF Did I understand you to say that Moses and Elias could enter into conversation with the Lord because they were intelligent as to what was happening?
JT I think that is what is meant to be conveyed. Their ministry would be futile aside from this that they were speaking of. The Lord was about to depart out of this world. Moses well understood what exodus meant, “His decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem”. Aside from that, all their previous ministry would be ineffective; it would be futile. God brings these two men there. No doubt they were filled with intelligence at the moment so as to present a complete picture.
AWR How would that apply to us?
JT Well, in all these three scriptures it is a question of personal dignity, for even John says, “It doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him”, although he was here and had seen this, he does not even know as to the whole thing! It is a question of laying hold of what we shall be there, of course; that enters into our service here.
The first thing in these scriptures is the kind of man, the radiant character of it, even in resurrection. This is what appears in resurrection; no doubt the heavenly thought enters into the shining of the two — but it was there in resurrection. If the women were [p. 38] equal to it, it was as much as to say, ‘this is what you are going to be’.
HF Is it significant that it follows on “They found not the body of the Lord Jesus”?
JT They were looking for Him dead, a poor thing in a way, and yet there were thousands of others that did not even look for that! You are thankful to see people going to the orthodox church, there is something in that, for there are millions that do not even do that. But then these women are looking for the Lord; they loved the Lord, but it was teaching they needed. Like thousands of christians, it is teaching they need, they really love the Lord, but they are looking for Him in the wrong place, they are looking for a dead Christ.
AWR If room is made for affection, intelligence would follow.
JT Affection is the basis of education. These two men could not only tell them things, but they represent in themselves what the divine thought is; as any minister ought to represent morally what he is saying. They would come back to that afterwards. Paul’s doctrine would unfold what the saints are going to be in heaven.
AL The angels rebuke them in saying, “Why seek ye the living among the dead?”.
JT There are thousands of christians around us seeking the Lord but seeking Him in the wrong place. Our business very largely is to instruct them. I believe these angels mean that; the shining garments would indicate that the truth is to shine forth. You do not see much shining in what comes out of cathedrals, but what comes out of death enters into this. “We all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord” (2 Corinthians 3:18).
[p. 39] Ques Would it enable us to stand by them, as these two men did?
JT Yes, that is the idea in shining raiment. It is oil that makes your face to shine — it would shine a bit on them.
HB The shining suggests something inside shining out.
JT It is the Spirit that shines, not merely on people outside, but as effective inside.
W Aquila and Priscilla would instruct in the way of God more perfectly.
JT Yes, that is the kind of thing. I am sure Apollos would say something afterwards he had not been accustomed to say. He had come from Alexandria, an eloquent man and mighty in the Scriptures, but the shining was needed, and I believe these two would furnish that. I think there is a lot of instruction for us as to the kind and order of man. Paul says, “Other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ” (1 Corinthians 3:11). It is that kind of man. I believe the testimony of God today is more what the saints are, than what they say; what we are, the manner and spirit.
W “They took knowledge of them [Peter and John], that they had been with Jesus” (Acts 4:13).
AWR The Lord said to the lepers, “Go, shew yourselves”.
JT Yes, “Shew thyself to the priest, ... for a testimony to them”, “Go, shew thyself”. (Matthew 8:4).
FI When the women saw these two men, they could really take their thoughts to heaven. If we are here as shining spiritually amongst the saints, our very contact with them would direct their thoughts to heaven.
JT Quite so, the shining is the point all through; do you not think that is rather more what we are?
FI Our thoughts would be more on what is [p. 40] heavenly instead of occupying ourselves with circumstances here, and things of interest in this scene.
JT It says of Stephen in his introduction into heavenly things, “All that sat in the council, looking stedfastly on him, saw his face as it had been the face of an angel” (Acts 6:15); he was a reflection of what was there.
W The Shunammite woman perceived that a man of God passed by.
JT Yes, he passed by her door, and she saw that he was a holy man of God. When the Lord was here He shone; He is not here, but we are here. “Why persecutest thou me?” indicates that there was a reflection of Christ in the saints.
HMcM Is that why it says “they remembered his words”?
JT Quite so. I believe that is how the church is formed characteristically. The apostles had opportunity to see how the Lord Jesus moved: “All the time in which the Lord Jesus came in and went out among us, beginning from the baptism of John until the day in which he was taken up from us”. The thought was that from the movements of Christ, there would be knowledge acquired of who He was. When the Holy Spirit comes down the thing is confirmed. That is, christianity is inaugurated; what they were was carried down as formative material in the church, carried down to the present time. Those in the upper room really refer to the kind of material there, even the Lord’s mother, all is carried down.
AL When Peter goes to Cornelius he bears testimony that they had eaten and drunk in His presence, and in his epistle that they were eyewitnesses of His majesty.
JT That is a resurrection thought — “eyewitnesses of his majesty”.
HB What is the thought in “white clothing”?
JT [p. 41] I suppose that should mark us in view of the period of His absence, from the time He went up till His return. A simple suggestion, I think.
HB He has a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments and “they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy” (Revelation 3:4).
JT I think that is helpful; the characteristic feature of the garments is purity. Then they tell them that He will come back “in the manner in which ye have beheld him going into heaven”. Now He is ascending and coming down. The Lord says, “Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man” (John 1:51).
AL Would you explain that, the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of man? Do we see that?
JT The allusion is to Jacob’s ladder. The passage we are referring to is in John, the other is in Genesis 28:12. “Upon the Son of man” is a question of His Person; He is the beginning of the movement. The angels here are descending on Him. It is a question of the greatness of the Person that was there. I think it is a marvellous tribute to the Lord’s Person.
AL To bear witness to what is now here on earth?
W In Hebrews they are ministering spirits sent forth to minister to them who shall be heirs of salvation.
JT “On account of those who shall inherit salvation”. They are not presented as coming down, though they must have come down; they are presented as going up first.
FI If He had not been here to ascend from, there would be nothing to go up. It is the same kind of principle before He comes down in the way of blessing, there must be the ascension, the going up,
[p. 42] the appreciation of Christ here; our appreciation of Him as having been here serving in blessing.
JT Just so; He was “seen of angels”. It is a principle that runs through Scripture, ascending and descending, in relation to what is connected with the Lord. Ascending on Him implies that we should begin there; it would refer to His incarnation, He is here in that position.
WA Would the same thought appear in the sacrifices?
JT The going up there would be more typical of Christ.
FI Is there an alteration here? They are not looking into the grave now, they are looking up into heaven.
JT They needed this adjustment because the glory had received Him. They were looking up, that period had ceased. The glory had received Him, the natural sight was shut out.
Ques What is the thought in the men of Galilee?
JT That is reproach. They were not men of Jerusalem; they were men of Galilee; Galilee was under reproach, Nazareth particularly; it was intensified reproach. That is really what the people of God experience. I think we ought to get the thought conveyed in their remarks, not only in their garments but in their remarks. You might say it was a right thing to look up; Colossians tells us to do that. It is not that faith had not existed before, for it had been present from Abel onwards. In the absence of Christ things are on the principle of faith. When He comes back again it will be a period of sight. The period of the cloud is ceasing now. Stephen looked into heaven, there was no cloud. Hebrews is a book of opened heavens, but not for sight, but for faith; “while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen” (2 Corinthians 4:18). That is one thing. Here it says, “This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven”. That is to be maintained in the interval, the manner of His going up: it is a heavenly thought. We are to go up too. It is one great thought to keep before us, the thought of going up. We have to understand how He went up.
Ques Do you get the full effect of this ministry in Revelation 4, in the twenty-four elders in white raiment?
JT Quite so, they are there. John was received up when he saw that. I think there is much in this; there is wrapped up in it the ministry of Paul, the idea of going up; there is the idea of coming down too. “I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven” (Revelation 21:2).
Ques Would that be like 2 Kings, mount Carmel and then Samaria?
JT Elisha saw Elijah go up. The children say, “Go up, thou bald bead”, they ridiculed it, and bears came out and slew them. God would not have that, that the thought of going up should be ridiculed; it belongs to christianity.
W When the coming of the Lord was revived sixty years ago, it was ridiculed. People said these christians will go up in a hand basket.
JT That gives you the idea of the ridicule; we do not go up in a hand basket.
AL He says to the two going to Emmaus, “Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?” (Luke 24:26).
AWR So the Spirit of God would call attention to Paul, to his manner.
JT I am sure there is a great deal wrapped up in that. Paul’s ministry is wrapped up in that, in the manner of things. I believe that word ‘manner’ is bound up with what follows in verse 21, as to the way He “came in and went out” amongst them.
[p. 44] What are you going to do now? Every movement would be suggestive of something. The Lord is calling attention to the manner in which things are to be done. The Lord broke the bread — how did He do it? What did He say? The Lord did it, and it is the bread which we break, not only which we eat, but which we break.
HMcM What follows is “in like manner”.
JT Just so, the order of the cup, “in like manner also”.
FI When we see the meaning of the thing, the breaking of bread takes on a different character; there is a divine movement.
JT The way the clergy present the sacrament, and the whole service in any church is not the way the Lord gives us things. That is what is in mind here, how He does things. So that the assembly convened is a reflection of heaven; it is the same thing; He is “the minister of the sanctuary”, you are there in a spiritual way. The Lord said to Nicodemus, according to John’s gospel, “No man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven” (chapter 3:13). That was implying not that He went, but that He is there characteristically as belonging to it. The fact that He came down here for a little while, does not alter that fact, that He is characteristically in heaven.
Rem This takes place on the mount of Olives, near to Jerusalem.
JT Jerusalem was the place of testimony, and they went into it from the mount; Luke says it was Bethany which was a bit further back from Jerusalem, but the Spirit here says it was from the mount of Olives. Acts looks on to the assembly more; Luke finishes up with the Jewish remnant. So you have the Lord assembling with them almost immediately here, not simply in the same room as they were, but “being assembled with them”. So that the idea is He would continue to assemble.
Rem Association with them would be an advance on standing by them.
JT Yes, indeed. This is suggestive of an innovation after He arose, not before He rose. So that the book of Acts is more a book of precedents, how the Lord did things, and how the apostles did things, as much as what they said. The Holy Spirit is here to bring things down to us. In other systems of religion it is more what is said, but in regard of christianity the Holy Spirit is here to bring things down, to revive them when they need to be revived.
HF Is there anything answering today to the Lord going in and out amongst them?
JT I think so, the Lord has promised to come to us.
Rem David went in and out amongst the people of Israel.
JT That is right. He went in and out amongst them, and he led them in, and led them out. You may lead people out and not lead them in; many have done this; but David led them back; he led them into conflict, but he brought them back.
Now the last scripture, Luke 9, is the heavenly. The Lord says in verse 27, “There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God”. It is a very solemn thing to deny oneself, to take up one’s cross, and be His disciple. It is not leisurely sitting down, but involves “standing”. We do not taste death until we see the kingdom of God. Then about eight days after this, He takes Peter and James and John and was transfigured before them; evidently it was a spiritual transaction; a Person who is in heaven, and a picture of what is in heaven, that is what these two men Moses and Elias represent. We shall appear in the heavenly [p. 46] city; we shall appear in glory. It is how we will come out, appearing in glory.
WA Qualifications are formed today.
JT Just so, the Lord’s supper in the assembly is all educative in that way.
HB “The fashion of his countenance became different”.
JT Just so. “As he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering”.
Rem “We shall all be changed, in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye” (1 Corinthians 15:52).
JT The Lord is carrying on a great work quickly, all to bring us back to who He was and is, in view of His suddenly appearing at any time.