READINGS ON EZEKIEL (8)
[p. 293] READINGS ON EZEKIEL (8)
Ezekiel 36: 24 - 38; Ezekiel 37:1-14; Ezekiel 37:26-28
AAT Are these the two chapters that you associate with the work of God in quickening Israel?
JT Yes, the work of God is alluded to in John 3 by our Lord when speaking to Nicodemus; then chapter 37 would correspond with John 5, where the Lord says, “For even as the Father raises the dead and quickens them, thus the Son quickens whom he will” (verse 21).
AFM Would, “I will put my spirit in you”, correspond with the gift of the Spirit in John 4?
JT Well, I think that is how it stands; the work of God in chapter 3 in connection with new birth; then the gift of the Spirit in chapter 4, and the question of life involved in chapter 5.
AFM And chapter 10 of John would answer to the one flock and one shepherd of verse 24.
ANW Going back to chapter 36, would the idea of new birth be more fully shown in the new heart?
JT Well, I think that is what is alluded to. He says, “I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your uncleannesses and from all your idols will I cleanse you. And I will given you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you” (verses 25 - 27). You have here “a new spirit” and “my Spirit”.
FL I suppose continuing the thought to the end of chapter 37, there is a covenant of peace made, suggesting Jesus in the midst, saying, “Peace be to you”, as corresponding with John 20.
JT That is very nice; He comes into their midst and says, “Peace be to you”. We have a passage parallel with this in chapter 34, and then [p. 294] chapter 35 treats of Edom. The reference to Edom in chapter 35, I suppose, has some bearing on the work of God at the present time. We have been seeing the connection between these chapters and the current work of God. The reference to Edom shows that he had perpetual hatred against Israel. If we take account of those in the position of shepherds in chapter 34, it covers a very large number in christendom, with whom, in one way or another most of us have had to do. We may also see that there is that which corresponds with Edom in those who are in the place of brethren. Edom had that place in relation to Israel but there was perpetual hatred on his part. Undoubtedly what corresponds with that, at the present time, is that there are those who have the place of brethren, and yet instead of love, there is hatred.
JEH Why is it mount Seir here instead of Edom?
JT That was Esau’s mount, was it not? I suppose signifying what they would rest in.
FL I suppose that Edom represents that unspeakable and irreconcilable element in religious flesh, which destroys everything that has to do with the purposes of God, whilst still holding the name of Christianity. It would have a broad aspect in that way. Those that name the name of Christ in the Christian world nominally take the place of brethren, but never can be reconciled, so that among all the kingdoms named in the prophetic word, Edom is the only one which is not recovered.
JT The Spirit of God emphasises the sovereignty of the judgment of the different nations, and particularly those judgments executed by Israel itself.
ANW Did you intend to be more specific in respect of Edom?
JT It has a general bearing on all Christians,
[p. 295] but there is that which corresponds more specifically in those who take the place of brethren.
AFM Did not the judgment fall upon them on account of their violence against Israel in the time of their calamity; and have we not seen similar features of violence in our own time?
FL Edom is marked throughout Scripture as utterly implacable. Herod was of Edom, and in a way would seem to represent that element of the religious world which positively refuses the power of life. So that Edom sets out to destroy the people of God.
Ques Do you think we might take into account an element in christendom, which although apparently spiritual, brings in death, as Unitarianism and Christian Science?
JT Yes. Herod is a striking representative of Edom, as showing hostility to those that are related according to nature, but who are walking according to the purposes of God.
DMR Would you say that verse 5 of chapter 35 indicates that God is justified in His sovereign movements in relation to Jacob and Esau: “I loved Jacob, and I hated Esau”, Malachi 1: 2?
JT It is remarkable how the Spirit of God pursues this thought; that although Edom was in the position of a brother from the very outset of God’s movements towards His people, yet he was opposed. And so in the last book of the Old Testament we find God stating clearly that He hated Esau, and in the first book of the New Testament we have Edom again, in Herod, in bitter hostility to Christ. God is again moving for the accomplishment of His purposes, but Edom was there to oppose Him.
AFM That would be true in regard of the assembly: another Herod sought its hurt; laid his hands on some, and slew James (Acts 12). He was dealt with very summarily in judgment.
JT [p. 296] It is very striking how this line runs through, and how it may be found in those who have the position of brethren today. The Lord did not even answer Herod (Luke 23); a most significant condemnation of that line.
AFM That is rather striking, as suggesting a sort of introduction to chapter 36, where you get recovery brought in; recovery answering to what has taken place in our own day, as gathered out from the nations, and brought to appreciate the work of God and the gift of the Spirit.
JT So that the true idea of family and of brethren, is dependent on the work of God. John says that, “As many as received him” (which stand over against the line of Edom), “to them gave he the right to be children of God, ... who have been born, not of blood nor of flesh’s will nor of man’s will, but of God”, John 1: 12, 13. The true family depends on the work of God, beginning with new birth, not on any act of man.
JS In John 9 we have the blind man brought in by the work of God.
JT So that it is not those who have the position in a hereditary way, for there can be no doubt that Esau was Jacob’s brother; that is what Malachi says definitely, “Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” (Malachi 1: 2). There can be no question as to the historical position, but what has to be observed is the spirit of animosity shown.
FL It is doubly interesting to see that, because when Jacob returns from Padan Aram, Esau is perfectly willing to take him up on natural lines, ignoring everything of the purposes of God; but when Jacob moves on spiritual lines, we see Esau on the line of hatred.
JT Yes, indeed, so that finally he went off to Seir (Genesis 36); whereas Jacob prior to this, had caused the maidservants and their children, Leah and [p. 297] her children, to pass before him. Then Joseph’s turn came, but he is placed before Rachel, for Joseph is a type of Christ, you know. Joseph, being thus distinguished, Esau had a good opportunity of seeing in this child a type of Christ. Jacob knew him thus, for he moved spiritually from Syria when Joseph was born. Thus Esau had a wonderful opportunity of seeing Christ typically, as Jacob had seen Him, in Joseph.
AFM Very interesting. The wise men embraced their opportunity of seeing the little Child, whereas Herod sought His life. The same hostile spirit is seen when Israel wanted to pass through the extremity of Edom; they said they would go by the highway; they not only were refused, but Edom came out against them.
JT Well, I think all these scriptures bear on one point, that is, the danger of having a hereditary position as brethren without the brotherly spirit, because if the work of God does not underlie it, you will have hostility to what is of God, and the most bitter hatred.
BTF Would you say that there is no work of God in the souls of people represented by Edom?
JT They typify the class that have that hereditary place of brethren that God will put an end to. They have every favour shown to them, and yet we find perpetual hatred.
DMR In speaking of the lack of the brotherly spirit; how would it apply to us?
JT Well, I think, by disregarding the covenant, and the fellowship into which we are brought, so that we are delivered into the hands of Edom, the implacable enemy of the people of God, although nominally brethren.
AAT Do you mean to say that there are brethren today that answer to Edom?
JT Well, we have to see how it bears upon us.
FL [p. 298] I think we need to enlarge our apprehension of the use of the word ‘brethren’ to really cover all who take the name of Christ, and assume the position of brethren; I do not know where to draw the line. You have to regard those, who in the religious world, take the name of Christ, and if they are opposed to the purpose of God, you will find the deadliest enmity amongst them.
JT It is not a question of individuals, it is more the spirit that animates certain classes. One has noticed it in the taking up of a specific position, a position that cannot be denied historically, and yet this hatred is manifest; this readiness to attack those who seek to go on in the light of God’s purpose. I think that it has a particular bearing in that connection, because it throws into greater relief the necessity for chapters 36 and 37, where we have the work of God on the line of Israel, which line supports the spirit of brethren. When the work of God has not freedom, it has lost its power.
AFM The first epistle of John says, “He who does not love his brother abideth in death”, chapter 3: 14. The judgment upon Edom was death; whereas in loving the brethren we know we live.
Rem Confirming what you are saying: there was trouble between these brothers even before they were born!
JT Yes. Jacob is seen as a model in Hosea, in that he took his brother by the heel, and wrestled with God, so that evidence of the work of God was seen in Jacob from birth.
AAT From a hereditary standpoint Esau would have come first?
JT Quite.
ANW I was thinking of brethren who are not connected with us in the testimony. What about them?
JT Well, one comes in contact with the question [p. 299] constantly. Edom had a remarkably strong position which influenced his territory; it was mountainous, and therefore peculiarly calculated for defence on natural lines.
FL As a basis for offence, the application in chapter 36 is to the mountains of Israel, and the contrast is rather beautiful.
JT It is very beautiful in that connection. The enemy said, “The ancient high places are become ours in possession”; these high places had become the possession of Edom. They undoubtedly allude to spiritual high places.
FL The high places of Israel are to be characterised by fruitfulness, they were places of spiritual prominence; productive of that which is beautiful to God and blessing to the people, a contrast to mount Seir which will be a desolation.
JT In chapter 36: 7 - 12, there is a beautiful allusion, I think, to the purpose of God for His people in these ancient high places. What God had indicated for His people was now coming into their possession, and would issue in fruitfulness.
AFM Will you show how that would work out at the present time?
JT Well, I think the “high places” for us, would be Colossians and Ephesians.
ABP Is there not a suggestion of this fruitfulness in Genesis 32; when Jacob went over Peniel the sun rose upon him?
JT He had already received the secret of this, typically the Spirit, and was weakened in the flesh; which Esau never was. It is by the Spirit we come into all these things.
AFM He was now morally suited for the house of God, as having the dignity of a prince.
FL Where do you bring in chapter 36, as applying to us?
JT Chapter 36 is the work of God in us in the [p. 300] way of moral cleansing. The first thing that is mentioned after they are gathered out of the nations is, “I will sprinkle clean water upon you”; for if we are to be maintained in the holy circle of brethren according to God, this element must be prominent. The hereditary thought does not make much of that; one may have a fellowship without it; but with God the idea of cleansing comes first.
FL Do you apply this to those who have backslidden, or to the initial work of God in souls?
JT In making the application now, it refers to the way the work of God shows itself in the presence of all this profession. God asserts Himself in His own work, and the principal feature at the outset is cleansing.
JEH Is it the new heart?
JT Yes, that goes with it; “Except any one be born of water and of Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit”, John 3: 5, 6. The Lord alludes to this when Nicodemus (who should have known these things) came to Him.
AFM Water has a great place throughout John’s gospel: John baptised with water, in chapter 1, and “blood and water” came from the Lord’s side, in chapter 19.
JT It all bears upon this subject of cleansing. When the Lord answers Nicodemus, He puts the water first. And so we have water, and then a new heart and a new spirit; the emphasis would be on ‘new’, and then He says, “I will put my Spirit within you”, which is an additional thing, but first it is a new heart and a new spirit. Which means the old is discarded.
JS Discarding the old makes room for the Spirit.
FL “Born of water and of Spirit” would be according to verse 26, and then verse 27 is the Spirit of God personally, “I will put my Spirit within you”, which goes on to John 4.
JT That is right, the law’s requirements are fulfilled in those who walk after the Spirit.
AFM Would the new spirit answer to the Lord’s word, “that which is born of the Spirit is spirit”?
JT I think that is what the new spirit would mean. It is distinct from God’s Spirit.
DMR Would the lack of this cleansing be applicable to clericalism, as disallowing the Spirit, in Christendom?
JT Quite. The need of cleansing is apparent if God is to bring out a family; there must be at the very outset of the work of God, the principle of cleansing.
JS Because of what we are?
JT Quite. It is a remarkable expression, “born of water”.
AAT The work is done by God.
CAM Would you say that cleansing in baptism is more positional, and “born of water” has more to do with nature?
JT Born of water is the principle of cleansing that goes with the work of the Spirit, the principle of purity.
FL In regard to baptism, it is largely positional.
JT No doubt baptism is a figure of it.
Ques Would you say that the “new spirit” would suggest the Spirit of Christ in overcoming a lawless spirit?
JT Quite, so that there is in you what we might call divine instinct, for which Jacob was remarkable. At the very outset, be took his brother by the heel.
DMR What would Jacob holding his brother by the heel typify?
JT It marks the believer, or one born anew, from the very outset; he took hold, it is the instinct of a [p. 302] babe.
JS Would you say that it was an evidence of the initial work of God?
JT Well, I thought that. The Holy Spirit speaks of his wrestling, prevailing and weeping in Hosea. And then God found him at Bethel, so that these exercises led up to the house.
CAM When God tells him to arise and go to Bethel, he sees the necessity of being cleansed by telling his household to put away the strange gods among them.
JT He knew what was befitting to God in His house.
FL That is what we are getting here in Ezekiel, cleansing from idolatry, and moral preparation for the sanctuary. Then the process of reviving the nation has to be gone over on totally new and divine lines.
JT So that new birth and cleansing are to enable us to emerge from the pollution of the flesh into which we are born naturally, and with which we are surrounded. Chapter 36 shows that feature of the work of God which enables us to move out of that; but chapter 37 brings us into the scene of God’s activities where life is. There is no question of cleansing in that chapter, but of dry bones, and flesh coming upon them, and breath coming into them, etc. It is all to bring in a state of things according to God. At the end of chapter 37 we are brought into a world of life, unity and of peace, where God is in His sanctuary.
JS That is by the power of God.
JT John 5 is very much in keeping with Ezekiel 37, because there you see divine Persons operating from Their own side: “My Father worketh hitherto and I work” (verse 17); and “as the Father raises the dead and quickens them, thus the Son quickens whom he will” (verse 20). “He that hears my word, and believes him that has sent me, has life [p. 303] eternal, and does not come into judgment, but is passed out of death into life” (verse 24). Then He goes on to say that there are those that should “hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that have heard shall live” (verse 25). John 5 is the power of God applied so as to bring in a world of life, in addition to the thought of cleansing.
JS The power of God applied to those in whom there is a work of God?
JT Just so. We have the work of God in an initial way in chapter 3, the gift of the Spirit in chapter 4, and then the quickening power of divine Persons in chapter 5, introducing us into a scene of life.
BTF Would you say that Ezekiel 37 sets forth the full Christian position?
JT I think the full Christian position is in chapter 20 of John, where He breathes into them His own breath. John 5 is the general thought of divine Persons operating to bring in a scene of life.
BTF But at the end of Ezekiel 37 you get the sanctuary mentioned.
JT Yes. It is the covenant of peace and the sanctuary; but John 20 goes beyond that.
CAM Is there any correspondence between Genesis 1 and the subjects we are considering? Would the dry land suggest a thought of what has been cleansed?
JT I think the third, fifth and sixth days synchronise: the third day is the end of one part of the divine work, bringing about vegetable life; the product of the fifth and sixth days’ work is animal life, including man.
DMR I was wondering whether there is a correspondence between chapter 37 and Acts 1, where Peter stood up in the midst of the brethren, where the number of names is given.
JT We do not get the suggestion [p. 304] of names here.
All the names there (120) would represent different features of life. Here it is typically the composition of the assembly, the material for it. The Holy Spirit would record those who form the assembly, and each has his own distinctive feature as of it. In a peculiar way they come under the influence of Christ. Here we have an exceeding great army, for God would show that it is not a remnant now, it is the whole house of Israel; it is the fulfilment of the divine thought, in that the whole nation is brought into life.
Ques Is it preparatory for the assembly?
JT You must understand life before you can come into the assembly, otherwise you have a mere shell without the substance. Peter says, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God”, and the Lord says, “thou art Peter, and on this rock I will build my assembly” (Matthew 16: 16, 18); it is a living organism.
FL The living aspect of it comes in in verses 11 to 14, “I will put my Spirit in you, and ye shall live”. That is the point reached here. It is the divine thought in connection with the vast army raised out of the vale. The development of this in John’s gospel explains that, I think; the introduction of life is the great thing here.
JT The reference to the Spirit in chapter 36, I think, would correspond more with John 4, the Holy Spirit in the believer, but then you have the Holy Spirit in John 7, coming down from a glorified Christ for testimony, and then you have Him in John 14, in a collective sense, and it is in that way that you come into unity, so that the second part of chapter 37 depends on the Holy Spirit. The “one stick” in verse 17 is a sample of unity that God looks for among His people. It is the unity of the Spirit.
AFM Why are they said to be “an exceeding great army”?
JT [p. 305] It represented power, indicating the means that God would use.
FL It is organised too; it is not a mob, or simply a collection of people.
ANW It would suggest power, in contrast to the “dry bones”.
JT It is an expression of power, and then the two sticks becoming one stick in Ezekiel’s hand suggests unity in the hand of Christ. The idea of an army is something powerful, but it is in His hand as one, there is no divergence of thought or action among them.
AFM The valley here is evidently the same valley as in chapter 3: 22, which is typical of Christ’s vicarious death. The Spirit in commenting upon the prophecy of Caiaphas; that Jesus should die for the nation, said: “and not for the nation only, but that he should also gather together into one the children of God who were scattered abroad”, John 11: 49 - 52. They were to be “one stick” in His hand.
DMR Would that correspond with the latter part of Ephesians 2, “But now in Christ Jesus ye who once were afar off are become nigh by the blood of Christ”?
JT That is good.
BTF Why does that work of power take place in the valley?
JT God is showing His sovereignty in the place where man is.
Ques Why is the work done in two sections first, the bones came together, then sinews and flesh came upon them and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them? Then, as Ezekiel prophesies, they are breathed upon and live.
JT It is symbolical. You can understand how the work of God goes on, quickening and forming us after the pattern of Christ, as the disciples were.
[p. 306] They had been formed after that pattern, and then too, the Lord breathed into them.
FL Israel had been clothed upon and by God’s power raised up. It could not be accomplished by any other means. The breathing is an additional thought; they are on a new footing.
JT Yes, indeed.
AFM Why does the breath come from the “four winds”?
JT I suppose it would be a reference to general interest. All that God commands, as it were, is available; it is not a local matter. I think the revival of Israel will not be confined to a locality but to what is general. So today you are impressed in John’s ministry with the emphasis on what is general such as the Spirit’s operations; John 3: 8. What is available on God’s part is intended for the carrying out of all His thoughts.
Ques Whether in Christ as Son of God, or Son of man, or in the Holy Spirit?
JT Just so. And then you have the prophesying at the outset, which brings about an action; that is, the mind of God is brought to bear upon the state of things, and then the bones are brought together, and clothed with sinews and flesh, and the breath came into them. It is a remarkable feature: a noise, a rustling, and the bones coming together in rapid succession, and finally, they stood upon their feet, an exceeding great army. Then they become “one stick” in Ezekiel’s hand. This great army is available for Christ to fill some office for His pleasure. It is in His hand in unity.
FL The great army is raised up and joined into one stick in the hand of the One who sways supreme power. The stick is the symbol of power that sways all that army, and David (Christ) is their prince for ever.
JEH Would that [p. 307] be the sceptre?
FL The stick would be the symbol of power. It was given to Moses and indicates the exercise of power. The sceptre would go further than that.
AFM The thought of unity — would you mind enlarging on that?
JT It says, “take thee one stick, ... for Judah ... and another stick, ... for Ephraim ... . And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thy hand”. Now they are brought into unity; it is the divine answer to the disunion in Christendom. It is not only outward unity here but the spirit of the thing. We become one as in the hand of Christ; He is the one King to us.
FL It is deeply interesting to see in Zechariah 11 the very reverse of this. The two staves, Beauty and Bands, are taken and broken, the intent being that all shall know that both Judah and Israel are discarded.
JT Quite.
DMR Would you say that the apostle Paul was in the light of this? He said to king Agrippa, “And now I stand to be judged because of the hope of the promise made by God to our fathers, to which our whole twelve tribes serving incessantly day and night hope to arrive”, Acts 26: 6, 7.
JT Quite.
Pages 308 - 325 “Three Readings in France”, 1926 (Volume 80).