READING

READING

Ezekiel 36: 24 - 27; Ezekiel 37: 1 - 17

JT The Lord may help us to see how the work of God, as indicated in this prophet, corresponds with the writings of John. Here we see that work culminating in unity — Judah and Israel are brought together in life. John’s gospel corresponds very much with this prophet, indeed the reference, I suppose, in John 3 by the Lord is to this very passage (chapter 36), and there are many other corresponding features, particularly in signs, that we get throughout Ezekiel. As we all know, John’s gospel, and indeed the book of Revelation, are on the same principle — “He sent and signified”; so that John’s testimony is largely based on signs with, of course — a spiritual import. Ezekiel, as we know doubtless, signifies the strength of God, and it opens with the prophet among the captives, sharing with his brethren their afflictions, but he sees the heavens opened and an array of power in certain symbolical features, whereby the will of God is enforced, and maintained in this world. But the government of God can only subserve His purpose, and His purpose is that His people should live, and that they should live in unity, and that that unity should mark them: “I will make them one nation in the land”.

Then, as following this teaching (chapters 36 and 37), the prophet is brought in the visions of God into the land of Israel in chapter 40, and the man whose appearance was like that of brass with a flax-cord in his hand and a measuring reed, takes him to the gate by which Jehovah was to enter into His house, and the measurements all correspond — one reed. Thus we have in John’s ministry life developed, and then unity, so that conditions may exist for God to ^[p. 46] come in and be with His people. There is, therefore, not only a very strong analogy between Ezekiel and John, but an analogy that suggests our own time, that is, times in which many of the professed people of God are fast drifting into apostasy, so that life is the only thing that stands; mere outward forms will not suffice.

EJMcB Then do I understand that you look on Ezekiel as answering to the ancient people in his ministry, as John would answer to the assembly?

JT Exactly, both having in view the end that God intends to reach, so that victory is certain. The name of the city shall be Jehovah Shammah — Jehovah is there; there is no doubt about that; it will most surely come to pass. And so John shows us the heavenly city coming down, so that the desired end is a certainty. How we are to correspond now with the work that leads up to that is the point.

JB Would you say that what you have been bringing before us from Ezekiel as to the union of the two sticks in the hand of the Lord corresponds with His prayer in John 17, “That they all may be one”?

JT Just so, and we see in the earlier part of the gospel (up to chapter 7) how life is developed, and in chapter 10 the principle of unity is worked out in the sheep, “There shall be one flock, one shepherd”.

DLH You get the two things again in Psalm 133, “How good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity”; the psalm begins with that, and concludes with the thought of life for evermore.

JT Well, it seems to me that that is what is proceeding now. God is working, and He is working to bring about a living state of things amongst His people to the end that there might be unity.

EJMcB Then is your thought that the mere revival of form is not likely to effect anything, but we have to come back to things by way of vitality?

JT I think that is how the matter stands. We ^[p. 47] reach the structure, as Paul presents it, through John’s ministry. To endeavour to set up a pattern of the assembly apart from living conditions is sure to end in failure, but if the living conditions are brought about, then we have something that goes through.

AW So the union of the two sticks cannot be accomplished without the sprinkling of the clean water first?

JT Just so, and then the breath entering into them, so that they live.

AW An entirely new principle is introduced by the sprinkling of the clean water.

JT In John 3 the work of God affects the whole man; chapter 36 contemplates that there should be a new heart and a new spirit. It does not say exactly a new soul, but there is a new heart and a new spirit; then He says, “I will put my spirit within you”. Now I think we have in John 3 the work of God as it begins, its initial stages, and it may be very aptly illustrated in Jacob who, according to Hosea, acted on divine instinct in taking his brother by the heel; that is, the work of God in its initial features in the believer leads to the instinctive displacement of the man after the flesh. It begins that way, and Jacob began that way, and he ends that way. He began with taking hold of Esau by the heel and he ended with putting Ephraim before Manasseh; so there was perfect correspondence between the beginning of his spiritual life and the end of it. In between there was much discipline; but the great weakness amongst the people of God is largely due to the want of that instinct, the instinct that sets the natural man aside to make room for the spiritual.

Ques Is that what you mean by taking Esau by the heel?

JT Yes, the supplanter. There is no babe in Scripture (except the Lord, of course) to compare ^[p. 48] with Jacob in that respect; even before his birth he is actuated by divine instinct (Genesis 25: 22, 23), and as he is born he takes his brother by the heel. Then the prophet Hosea goes on to say that he wrestled with the angel and in his strength he had power with God; all that is from the side of the work of God in the man. God setting Esau aside is another matter. The work of God in me corresponds with the sovereignty of God, it is sure to, and I believe in that way we know just where we are by an introspective examination.

EJMcB I am sure that is true — that the actual work of God in any believer, the instincts and features of it, are according to God in all His operations.

AW So at the very beginning of that work in the soul, the sense is present that there is an order of man that will not do for God; it may not be entered into, but it is present at the very beginning.

JT Yes, many believers could not give you an intelligent account of that, but in observing them, one can see it.

EJMcB Even young believers have the instinct of it in themselves; there is a certain measure of dislike to what panders to the flesh, and what would support the Spirit appeals to them.

JT We see in the after history how accurate Jacob’s instinct was; he knew nothing about the prophecies obviously, or that it had been foretold that the elder should serve the younger and that he should replace Esau, but his later history shows the accuracy of his instinct. All along the line Esau’s conduct proves that Jacob is right. Hosea says nothing about the buying of the birthright, the purchase of the inheritance, nor about his deception, but it does speak of his wrestling with God, following upon his taking his brother by the heel.

GWW We have been accustomed rather to ^[p. 49] look on that action of Jacob with considerable disfavour. You think it was a right instinct?

JT I think Hosea shows that. It is quoted to show that Israel then were contrary to that; Hosea 12: 3 - 5. What is said of Jacob is set over against the conduct of the people at that particular time.

GWW You mean that there had been the re-admission among them of certain principles that were not in line with Jacob’s action? These principles had been re-asserting themselves, and hence were destructive of unity.

JT Yes. Here he says, “Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments and do them”. We see, I think, in this passage how the work of God bears on our natural associations.

EJMcB It would be in that way that John would use the expression, “Little children, keep yourselves from idols”, 1 John 5: 21.

JT Quite. It is not here simply that one goes by precept. This passage deals with us inwardly — a new heart and a new spirit given, connected with purification, for the truth is that the new birth is purifying as well as life-giving.

Ques Why do you think it is sprinkling?

JT I suppose it is just the reference to the work of God in its cleansing feature.

Ques Is the thought purifying their hearts by faith?

JT Yes, the new birth is according to that.

Ques What is the force of Jacob taking hold of ^[p. 50] the heel?

JT It means supplanting Esau, and inasmuch as it was the act of a babe, it was instinctive. It was not an act prompted by any acquired intelligence; it was instinctive, which is an important thing to take account of in the work of God. The instincts that mark the believer at the beginning develop and enter into his intelligence in all his spiritual growth, but they are the fundamental principles that mark the work of God from the outset.

EJMcB Have you in mind that in coming into life in the history of our own souls spiritually with God, we become more accustomed to take account of these instincts in the people of God than in mere outward actions?

JT I think it is very important in dealing with the people of God to accustom oneself to discern instincts.

Ques Are these instincts the new heart and the new spirit?

JT The new heart and the new spirit would be the seat of these instincts. It is more important that we should discern these instincts at the outset in souls than to look for mere intelligence in the things of God.

EJMcB Is that why in John many of the mere formalities are rebuked by the Lord, because there were no divine instincts behind them?

JT Yes, many of them believed because of the miracles, but those were not divine instincts. There is no credit to be attached to believing in a Man who can feed a multitude, or who can raise a dead man, or turn water into wine. The Lord did not attach any importance to that; what He looked for was the instincts that mark the work of God in men’s souls.

Ques Is that what He took account of in regard of Nicodemus?

JT Exactly. “But there was a man from among the Pharisees, his name Nicodemus”. He ^[p. 51] came to Jesus by night; he had certain right instincts, for he recognised Jesus as “a teacher come from God”.

Ques That is what He can commit Himself to; is that what you mean? At the end of the previous chapter it says, “Jesus did not commit himself unto them ... for he knew what was in man”.

JT Yes. I may be occupied with what you say, but God is looking at your heart. Jesus knew what was in man and He knew all men, so He did not commit Himself to them, but there was a man who came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “We know that thou art a teacher come from God”. That is the sort of thing to look for in dealing with souls; there is a certain instinct that recognises what is of God. If they come into a meeting where the Spirit of God is active, they are affected. “If any one desire to practise his will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is of God, or that I speak from myself”, John 7: 17.

NL Is it on the principle that “that which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit”?

JT That is the principle exactly. Do you not find that helpful in dealing with souls? If a young Christian wishes to break bread, for instance, what you look for is the instinct.

Rem That calls for consideration with us.

JT It does. But instinct is the feature to go by. You can easily impart knowledge; that is a comparatively simple matter, but to give souls divine instincts you cannot; that is the work of God, and when given they are there for ever. A soul may forget many things that you say, but he will never lose the instincts. Therefore, our concern in dealing with a soul is not to find out how much he knows, but to find out if there are instincts there as the result of divine operations. You may ask questions, and he may ^[p. 52] answer them perfectly, but that does not prove there are instincts there.

DLH I remember J.N.D. used to say that the Lord did not always answer people’s questions, but He always answered them, meaning that He knew the state of the people who were asking questions and dealt with that, so that if there were a divine instinct He responded to it.

JT So that Nicodemus, although he has the instincts, was evidently governed by Pharisaical thoughts, and there are many Christians like that. They have the instincts, but they are under a tremendous disadvantage because of bad teaching and wrong associations; hence the great labour to be expended that such might be extricated from these hindering influences. The Lord says, “Ye must be born again”; that is the first thing. He immediately brought into evidence the work of God in a man, and that was the point for the moment.

Ques What is the difference between the instinct you are speaking of and the unction in John’s “babes”?

JT There it is the Spirit given to us as a power of intelligence — of understanding.

Ques Is the extrication you are speaking of seen in detail in John 9?

JT Well, there you see how the work of God proceeds, not only in its initial stages, but in leading a man on until he is outside all religious associations. The work of God is true to itself. In every instance that man is true; he is able to give an account of himself. John 9 is a great advance on John 3, it is the works of God in chapter 9. There is variety in the features of the work.

EJMcB In the case of Nicodemus, he was extricated first of all by the injustice of the council, and lastly by the effect of the death of Christ upon him.

^[p. 53] Ques Would you receive a person who wants to break bread if his instincts are right, or would you wait till he has the Spirit?

JT He cannot be in the assembly without the Spirit; and not only that, but he has also to be adjusted in regard of the truth. The truth has to be brought to bear, but the first thing is the work of God — that is the basis.

Ques Was it the work of God in Nicodemus that made him come to Jesus?

JT Yes. He came and said, “We know that thou art a teacher come from God”. He was a teacher in Israel, but there was a Man there who superseded him in his own mind. He evidently recognised One who eclipsed him, though he himself was no ordinary man.

GWW There was an immense deal went on in the soul of Jacob between the time when instinctively he got hold of his brother by the heel, and the moment when he wittingly crossed his hands; then his education was completed, I suppose.

JT His history shows the extent of the work of God in a believer — from the outset to the end.

GWW Therefore you would look for something done wittingly, not merely instinctively.

JT You have got one now who is intelligent; “I know it, my son, I know it”, Jacob said.

GWW So there is a vast difference between instinct and intelligence; but you will not get much intelligence without instinct.

JT You will not get any according to God.

EJMcB Taking account of saints in any locality, you would look on them as intelligent people, although there might be amongst them those who were very unintelligent?

JT Yes, you could hardly recognise them as on the ground of the assembly unless they were intelligent; the very idea of the assembly involves intelligence.

Paul writes to the Corinthians, “I speak as to intelligent persons: do ye judge what I say”. These are very elementary remarks, but they are extremely important now, because there is so much darkness, and men may hold the very worst things and yet have these instincts underneath. You cannot throw them overboard at once; you want to be sure they have not got the instincts before you reject them.

FWJ You were making a distinction between Simon and Cephas the other day.

JT Yes; Luke says that “the Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon”, whereas Paul says that He appeared unto Cephas. Now it is quite obvious that in Luke the thought is to show the exercise of grace on the Lord’s part to restore an erring one, for He had just gone to Emmaus to bring back two erring ones, and Peter had also been met by Him; so it was all a question of grace for recovery. But in appearing to Cephas He had the assembly in view; the word ‘Cephas’ signifies material for the assembly. Peter was an erring disciple — he had failed — but nevertheless he was underneath a true lover of Christ.

EJMcB It would be evidence of the difference between Jacob and Esau.

JT The thing is to distinguish the work of God from what may belong to the responsible life through bad teaching, etc., for the darkness there is around is beyond description — it is appalling.

EJMcB Then do I understand that in proposing these two chapters you wish to bring before us the importance of there being with us the conscious sense that there is a work of God, and if this is in its proper setting, it will bring about unity.

JT And to help us to deal with souls on abstract lines — to identify them with the work of God, for all else is refuse, and how to dispose of that refuse is what brings out the skill.

^[p. 55] Ques What is the connection between the work of God by the Spirit in the soul and the water that came from the side of the Lord?

JT I think the water the Lord referred to in John 3 is the water that came from His own side “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit”; there can be no cleansing apart from that.

AW In that respect, would it be worthy of note that the vessels in John 2 are stone vessels to hold the water?

JT Yes. They were there; it was creditable that they were there. What you get in the beginning of John 2 is a set of conditions in which you may look for results. At the end of that chapter you have a set of conditions in which you may look for no results for God. In the first part of the chapter you have a wedding and Jesus and His disciples were invited; now that shows that it was not a mere matter of patronage. Simon the Pharisee invited the Lord but no one else. If I invite you and your wife and children, I am interested in you; I am not merely patronising you. But here all were invited, and the mother of Jesus was there too. It does not say she was invited, she was probably intimate with the family. So the circumstances are all favourable for a work of God; and alongside of that, you have the six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, that is to say, there were conditions that the Lord could operate in successfully, and He did. You may look for these conditions; one of them is that there is a certain sympathy and favour towards the Lord.

AW Is there any connection between the reference in chapter 1 to Cephas, a stone, and the stone vessels?

JT The material of the vessels indicates durability — they were there. In the second part of the chapter you have the Jew. The Lord is at Jerusalem and the Jews’ passover was at hand, which is a very different matter from a marriage in Cana of Galilee where He is invited and His disciples, and where His mother is. So in Jerusalem He cleanses the temple; what effect is that going to have? If you introduce the principles of the house of God, and insist on them, what response are you going to get? You soon find out. Go out into the religious circles today and introduce the principles of the house of God; you will get a cold reception. The Lord brought the scourge in and cast them all out, but there was not an atom of sympathy. They say, “What sign shewest thou to us, that thou doest these things?” He says, “Destroy this temple” (not that temple), “and in three days I will raise it up”, and not a word more. They are left to themselves to determine what He means, and there is not the slightest evidence that anybody understood it, not even His disciples. It says, “When therefore he was raised from among the dead his disciples ... believed ... the word which Jesus had spoken”, but not then. Then it goes on to say, “Many believed on his name, beholding his signs which he wrought. But Jesus himself did not trust himself to them”. That is a set of conditions you may labour in and there is no result, but where you find the Lord is respected and His people are respected, and there is the evidence of some sort of cleansing, there you may hope for results. So it says, “This beginning of signs did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested his glory; and his disciples believed on him”. There were definite results there. In Scripture, water in this respect is for moral cleansing, so in John’s epistle the water comes before the blood. In John’s gospel the blood comes first, as meeting the claims of God.

Rem The reference in Ezekiel is to water.

JT That is what corresponds to John 3.

EJMcB I like your reference to the first part ^[p. 57] of John 2 — the value of taking account of the elements which are present, for evidently there was a desire for purity there. The Lord operated in those conditions; whereas in the last part of the chapter the Lord speaks, but gives no explanation of what was in His mind.

JT No. He leaves the matter.

Ques Would you say that in the opening of chapter 2 there are instincts with the Lord’s mother, but they were on natural lines?

JT But she soon came into line. The Lord said, “Woman, what have I to do with thee?” but she was equal to the moment, therefore she said immediately to the servants, “Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it”. There was subjection. You will always find that if God is working there is immediate subjection to the word of God. So later, after He manifested forth His glory, He went to Capernaum and abode with His mother and His brethren and His disciples, but as regards Jerusalem He simply says, “Destroy this temple”; there is no explanation whatever on His part as to what He meant. What would be the use of explaining to people such as these Jews were? You cannot make anything of them.

EJMcB Then what was your thought in regard to the opening part of this chapter in Ezekiel in regard to prophesying to the bones?

JT The point is, I think, that you have to bring in the mind of God. The two things go together: the work of God, and the mind of God being made known.

EJMcB Will you say a little as to prophesying to the wind?

JT There I suppose it is the Spirit. You get the mind of God as to the bones. I would say, if it be applied to ourselves, that we bring in the mind of God in regard to the assembly and all that relates to ^[p. 58] the saints, and that is prophecy, and God works in relation to that.

EJMcB Do you look at the work of God in a moral way then, as setting a person on their feet?

JT Quite. Then there must be the mind of God brought in; there must be intelligence; so that in John 3, after the Lord speaks of the new birth and cleansing. He says, “Even so must the Son of man be lifted up”, and moreover, the Son of man was in heaven, and He could speak with authority. “We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen”, the Lord said.

Ques Would you say a word as to the thought of the Son of man in Ezekiel?

JT The term is found more frequently in Ezekiel than in all the rest of Scripture combined, and that must mean something. Now in John you have it in chapter 1; after the truth of the Lord’s Person is outlined. He says to Nathanael, “Thou shalt see greater things than these ... . Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man”. That was something for an Israelite to think over, and it was an Israelite to whom it was said. A godly Israelite would sit down and ponder the thought, and refer to the scriptures which speak of the Son of man. He would refer to Ezekiel, he would refer to Daniel, and, as a spiritual man, he would begin to see that God was going to operate on wider lines than those He had hitherto been operating on. And Israel has to learn that now, before they come into their portion.

Ques Is it not, too, the only title the Lord gives Himself?

JT Yes, just so. An “Israelite indeed” has to accept that the thoughts of God about the race take precedence now of His thoughts about Israel; that is a very serious matter. One of the signs to Ezekiel is that he is to lose his wife, the delight of his eyes,

^[p. 59] and he is not to mourn. That is a sign, meaning that the Lord was going to suffer the loss of Israel; He was going to take things up on wider lines; and that is what He is doing now. Nathanael says, “Thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel”. The Lord says, “Thou shalt see greater things” — that is, the Son of man, so in chapter 3 we have the Son of man which is in heaven.

Ques Does that come out in chapter 17, “The men which thou gavest me”?

JT Yes; the men.

GWW And was not that the stumbling-stone on which they stumbled, the fact that He was now moving as Son of man?

JT They would not have that; it was a definite stumbling-stone to them. Stephen sees Jesus in heaven and testified, “Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man”, and Jesus announces Himself to Paul. These are the lines on which the testimony moved. Take Saul himself, an Israelite indeed, he had to learn that it was a question not of the promises to Israel first now, but the thoughts of God about the race of men.

GWW So Stephen when he bore his witness says, “I see ... the Son of man standing on the right hand of God”; that finished it, they rushed on him.

JT Does not that open up the position immensely?

GWW It does.

AW So the whole race comes into view after Acts 7 in chapters 8, 9, and 10.

JT Yes, you have the African, the Asiatic, and the European all coming in, one after the other, so that there is the further confirmation of the truth that “There is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus”. And the Jew — the “Israelite indeed” — has to learn that.

Ques Have you got the climax of the thought ^[p. 60] of the Son of man in John 13, “Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him”?

JT Quite; that is the climax; the Lord said that when Judas went out. It is wonderful how the idea of the Son of man is woven into John.

Ques What is the idea of the apparent reference to Genesis 25 in John 1, the angels ascending and descending?

JT That means, it was not on Jacob, but on the Son of man. Jacob would bring in the promises, but now God is acting through all this dispensation on a wider basis, but He has not lost sight of Israel. Israel is ever in view, so at the last the land is carefully divided amongst them all, and the tabernacle of God is there.

Ques Is the term “Son of man” used in the gospels by any one else but the Lord Himself?

JT No, not as far as I remember; He uses it Himself.

Ques Is there a principle in Ezekiel 37 that no visible person puts the bones together — they come together?

JT I think it is the work of God. The prophesying brings the mind of God to bear on everything. These things do not run together in Christendom; there are numbers in whom you find divine instincts, but who find themselves in unholy associations. The thing is to identify the person with the work of God in the soul, and endeavour to remove the refuse.

EJMcB It brings in the great value of prophecy.

JT Yes. Prophecy is not a mere recitation of doctrine — it is the mind of God brought in.

EJMcB And the driest bones respond to it.

JT Yes.

Ques Does the proving of the spirits (1 John 4) require maturity?

JT Quite. Those that respect the apostles’ doctrine are of God. I think the spirits that we have ^[p. 61] to try are the teachings of men, and the world is full of these teachings now, but they are not of God.

DLH In 1 Corinthians 12 Paul says, “Covet earnestly the best gifts”, and in chapter 14, “but rather that ye may prophesy”.

JT And just for the same reason we have here; prophesying brings in the mind of God. If a simple person comes in and there is one prophesying, he will fall down and say, “God is in you of a truth”. Every brother who ministers should aim at there being some authority with what he says, not a mere recitation of doctrine, but the oracles of God; for, as I understand gift, it involves a commission, and that, as we know from military matters, involves the authority of the king. Therefore, a man’s uniform represents something, so the ministry of any brother ought to have certain authority with it — the mind of God should be there.

Ques Would that discover the instincts?

JT I think the saints would recognise them. If there are the instincts, they will recognise the voice of God.

GWW By the prophetic word the instincts are fed, fostered, and increased until the subject of the work of God is able to act wittingly, and that results in the people of God being found in unity; they know the principles that are of God and those that are contrary to God.

JT So you have the result of this in chapter 37 — the two sticks become one — the stick of Joseph and the stick of Judah.

GWW It is very beautiful, and all this ought to go on now; we should have before us the great end that is in view — unity.

JT So when you come to the house itself everything corresponds; there is no discrepancy.

Rem Peter says, “If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God”.

JT Yes, it is not merely going over things that you know, as I was saying, but a word that comes from God. It has not the weight Scripture has, otherwise we would not be called upon to judge it, but nevertheless there is a voice of God in it.

Rem Samuel was a child who was prayed for. He very early displayed right instincts, and the result of it was that the Lord was with him and let none of his words fall to the ground.

Ques Should we not be concerned to take account of the work of God and associate ourselves with that?

JT Yes, you find a principle that “He that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God”, John 3: 21. So right through John the principle of the work of God underlies everything.

Ques Would you say that in the sheep in chapter 10 the knowing and following the Lord is the result of divine instinct?

JT Yes.

Ques Would there be a principle of discernment in a prophet as to whether there were instincts in the company or person he was speaking to?

JT Quite. Here the work of God proceeds, so that the bones begin to take on life. Sinews, and flesh, and skin are brought in, and then the breath comes into them and they stand on their feet, an exceeding great army; all that is connected with the work of God.

DLH Is not the thought of life connected very much with power in Scripture, and not entirely connected with instinct, important as that is?

JT Quite. The Spirit is life. That comes out in Jacob; in his strength he wrestled with God; evidently there was a great increase on what he was as a babe. He wrestled with God, and, it says, ^[p. 63] he prevailed.

EJMcB So here you have after the bones were clothed with sinews, flesh and skin, the prophecy that brings in the four winds — the Spirit connected with what is universal. A man who has the Spirit is connected with the whole work of God in the earth; they lived, and stood up upon their feet.

JT Quite so; Joseph sees his sheaf standing up; there was power — life was there. It says here He puts a new heart and spirit in them; but then He goes on to say, “I will put my spirit within you” — that is what I understand to be the power. The new heart and spirit would be the seat of the instincts we were speaking of; His Spirit coming in involves power and intelligence. That would result in the believer doing things wittingly.

Ques Would you say a word as to the river Chebar; Ezekiel 1: 1?

JT Well, it seems to be morally right that the prophet should be there, far away from Jerusalem. He is identified with the captivity, with the sorrows of God’s people, like the Lord Himself — “In all their affliction he was afflicted”, Isaiah 63: 9. So the Lord is not working in Jerusalem now, but far away from it. I have no doubt it corresponds with our time. God is working far away from places where we might expect Him to work; the heavens are universal in their bearing. In the Acts, where Christianity is brought in, we see how heaven comes into view — a light from heaven — a sheet from heaven.