CHRIST'S PRESENCE IN THE FATHER'S HOUSE MAKES A PLACE FOR US
CHRIST’S PRESENCE IN THE FATHER’S HOUSE MAKES A PLACE FOR US
Hebrews 9: 24; Hebrews 10: 1 - 22
Ques. What shall we read?
Rem Well, I was thinking we might go on with Hebrews and have a little more about the priest gone in, in the end of Hebrews 9. I suppose it is not exactly the priest here; it is not exactly priestly service, though it is He who is the Priest.
FER No; you get the priest again in chapter 10 as “great priest over the house of God”, verse 21.
Ques What distinction do you make between “heaven itself” (chapter 9) and the holiest (chapter 10)?
FER If you had not a place in heaven you could not enter the holiest. Christ has gone into heaven itself to appear in the presence of God for us. He is not only there, but He is there for us. If you have not a place in heaven by the will of God you could not enter the holiest, the idea in which is moral — the place of privilege of saints on earth.
Ques Does His place determine ours?
FER I think so. He has gone into heaven to appear in the presence of God for us.
Ques Is His place now the place we shall have hereafter?
FER I think so, as in the Father’s house.
Ques Would you call that our standing?
FER No; it is more place. He goes up and takes that place for us. He is there for us, that gives us a place in heaven. It is His presence in the Father’s house as man that makes a place for us. It is not the making a place in any material sense. It is more than title, because it is a place prepared for us.
[p. 121] Ques Is it as Forerunner He prepares the place?
FER As Forerunner He has entered within the veil, it is more a moral idea; heaven is a place.
Rem It was a question when the Lord left the earth whether He would return, the eleven only saw Him go into the cloud, they did not see any further. When the moment of His rejection came in the stoning of Stephen (Acts 7) the heavens were opened, and Stephen looked up and saw the glory of God and Jesus, and the moment he saw Jesus (he looked through the cloud, for he says, “I see the heavens opened”), that is home; he knew where he was going; going home. That makes our place. Stephen saw Jesus there and that made a place for him. We know the Person who is there. The moment you see the glory of God and Jesus in it, it is home.
Ques Would you say a word about the end of chapter 6?
FER The idea of the holiest is that which is within the veil.
Ques Are we to understand that “within the veil” corresponds to the place in chapter 10? Is chapter 6 moral and not exactly the heavenly places?
FER Chapter 6 is not exactly the same as chapter 10. In chapter 6 Christ has entered within the veil and become a priest, to lead us into it. “Which (hope) we have as anchor of the soul” in chapter 6. When you come to chapter 10 we enter in.
Ques In chapter 6 within the veil is connected with the hope. Does the hope apply to us?
FER Yes; for as a christian here on earth, whether you enter into your privileges or not, your hope is there. Even the Jew had fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope, but in chapter 10 we enter in; it is not the hope there, but a question of entering into privilege. You embrace your privilege. The Hebrews had not entered into privilege at all, because [p. 122] they were still in the camp; but their hope entered there; the anchor of the soul sure and steadfast.
Ques Can you tell us the meaning of within the veil?
FER You cannot understand the expression or what it is unless you apprehend what the sanctuary is. An Israelite knew what it meant, because he understood what the sanctuary was. “Within the veil” was the holiest of all, where the high priest went once a year. We have not, as they, a material sanctuary. I believe it is the presence of God; the revelation of Himself in that which is before Him for His glory. The sanctuary in its entirety is the full display of God. The sanctuary took in all, the holy place and the most holy.
Ques The veil being rent, it has all a different character?
FER You must understand what the sanctuary is before you understand the rending of the veil. It is the full revelation of God through Christ’s death.
Ques Why do you say the veil rent is God coming out?
FER The veil is never seen as rent in Hebrews, you go through it. Indeed, you do not get the rending of the veil except in the three synoptic gospels. It was rent from the top to the bottom, that was God coming out; but that is not what we have in this part of the epistle to the Hebrews.
Ques. Why?
FER Because you must go in through death, and that is death effectuated in you, you have to appropriate the death of Christ for yourself. It is not here a rent veil, an opened way, but a way through, which depends on the appropriation of death in you. The way is there.
Ques We must go in through it?
[p. 123] FER The great point is, Christ is gone in first. It is not simply God come out, but Christ has gone that way through death. He is the first to go in. He went in through death, and that is the way you go in, a new and living way. It is not merely by faith in His death, but that death is effectuated in you.
Rem You cannot go in as a living man in flesh. You must appropriate His death.
FER You cannot bring in anything that the rending of the veil has set aside. To put it in other words, it is the soul’s realisation of privilege, all is based on the virtue of the death of Christ, His perfect sacrifice. In my soul’s appropriation of death I am on an entirely new footing before God.
Ques Then in the gospels the rending of the veil would be God coming out, and in Hebrews we go in?
FER Yes; it is the end of man in flesh; it must be made good in us. It is the appropriation of Christ’s death, as bringing man to nothing as in the flesh.
Ques Is it not the place where every christian always is?
FER No; it is privilege. Access, if you like. In Hebrews it is not power but the way that we get in. It is the privilege of the saint here, the soul passing that way. It is the soul’s appropriation of privilege, you go in to your privilege. Privilege indicates something conferred on you through the grace of God. The soul passes into it. Every christian has the privilege; it belongs to him, but he may not be enjoying it. You must not confound privilege with moral state.
Rem The moral state is settled by the way you go on. Every christian has the privilege, but every christian does not take it up, he does not go in by the new and living way.
FER You must maintain the privilege, because that is on the divine side and our title.
Ques What is the new and [p. 124] living way?
FER The way by which He passed through. He has died to sin and lives unto God. He is alive, a Person out of death. He has taken up a platform on which we can be with Him. I think Romans 6: 10 explains it. No one could ever have been with Him after the flesh. He is the corn of wheat that has fallen into the ground and died, He has left the order of things connected with man in the flesh, and has taken up a place in resurrection, out of sin and alive to God, in which we can be with Him. We never could have had association with Him in the flesh.
Ques What is “through the veil, that is to say, his flesh”?
FER That refers to the fact of His death.
Ques I should like to know why you object to the veil rent in Hebrews?
FER Because if the way were perfectly open to man we should go in as we are, as alive in flesh; but we go in through the appropriation of Christ’s death to what we are as in the flesh, and you do not go in except that way.
Rem You must go in the same way that Christ went in, but you have to go that way, and you will not go in unless you do go that way.
Ques Does it correspond to John 6?
FER It is very much the same.
Ques Is it right to say that Christ went in in virtue of His death?
FER He went in in the full value of His death. He took the ground up for us, that there might be a divine basis for His people to go in upon.
Ques What particular part of John 6 corresponds to it?
FER “He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood”.
Ques What is “my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world”?
FER It is His flesh given which is the ground for the life of the world. We appropriate His death to enter into our place as sons. The privilege of sonship is connected with entering the holiest. The enjoyment of the place of sonship and all privilege with God lies wholly and entirely in the Spirit, not in the flesh. Our companionship with Christ lies wholly in the Spirit, and we must for that appropriate the death of Christ to all that to which He has died.
Ques. “I am the way”?
FER Yes; He is the way.
Ques Is this in Hebrews 10 any allusion to the rending of the veil when the Lord died, or is it Aaron entering in within the holiest?
FER We have the priest entering in in chapter 9. The allusion in the expression “through the veil” is to the death of Christ; but, as J.N.D. said over and over again, you never get a rent veil in Hebrews. If it were rent on our side as it is on God’s side we could go in as men in the flesh.
Rem And Israel would enter in by-and-by and they will not.
FER The point is, there is a veil to go through. To come to the assembly — we come into the assembly as christians (the Corinthians came together as christians), but when thus come together, then in the power of the Spirit of God we pass right away in spirit from all distinctions of the flesh (neither Jew or gentile, bond nor free) into the privilege of the sons of God. By the power of the Spirit of God we pass into the sense that we are all companions of Christ and sons of God. It must be by death, because it is only through death we can [p. 126] get free of the distinctions of flesh. It is only death that can abolish them. When we come out of the assembly we resume our individual position here; these distinctions exist and must be recognized in their place. You may be a free man; you may have a bondman; but in the assembly, in the power of the Spirit of God and of spiritual affections, you pass out of all this into the place of enjoyment and privilege with God. You pass into a new scene where Christ is all and in all, and that is the sanctuary, where there are no distinctions whatever.
Ques The veil will be up again in the millennium?
FER It has never, on our side, been taken down. You cannot alter the fulness of the revelation in which God has come out. The question of entering in, according to the full understanding of the revelation God has given, is another thing — that is a question of apprehension.
Ques The veil is not removed on our side?
FER No; but on God’s side it is rent from top to bottom. He is fully come out. I do not know whether you could say it is removed on God’s side, it is rent on God’s side, so that God has come out; and in Matthew 28 you see the full extent of it. The Lord gives the commission to go out and baptize all nations, “to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit”; that is, because God has come Out in that way; but it does not mean that all nations will necessarily enter into the meaning and power of that revelation.
Rem We want to get away from the material thought to the spiritual idea.
FER That is the great difficulty.
Ques Is reconciliation connected with the idea of God coming out?
FER I think reconciliation is God Himself removing the distance between Himself and man.
[p. 127] It affects nothing for you as to your state. It is God coming out.
Rem The rending of the veil has removed the distance.
FER Yes; in the work of Christ God on His own side has completely removed every barrier between Himself and man.
Ques How far will this epistle affect the remnant by-and-by?
FER I think it is all a question of what God will give them according to their spiritual state. They will get the law written on the heart which fits them for earth; we get the spirit of sonship which fits us for heaven. Everything is dependent on the purpose of grace. God has called us in this privilege. He will call them in another — we cannot go beyond what He calls us to.
Ques Is not the remnant contemplated in Hebrews? Is not that why the veil is not rent?
FER I think the apostle goes beyond christianity, and brings in the thought of the world to come. When “the world to come” is established, you are completely through. It is not then a question of going through, you are in. Everything has been completely met for God; every demand of His glory completely satisfied; Christ “once in the consummation of the ages ... has been manifested for the putting away of sin by his sacrifice”. Every claim of the glory of God in respect of sin has been met by the offering of Christ.
Ques Is not the blood always for God?
FER The blood is first for God, but also for you.
Ques What is the sevenfold sprinkling?
FER The sevenfold sprinkling is that everything has been met for God.
Ques Are there not two sprinklings, on the mercy-seat and before it?
FER [p. 128] Yes; but I think it is all for God when it is a question of carrying the blood into the holiest, it is what is suited for the glory of God inside.
Ques Will you say once more why you so insist on no rent veil in Hebrews?
FER Because you have to go through the veil, not an unrent veil, but through the veil; you have to go through by the way Christ made, and by that way alone you pass into privilege that cannot belong to you as a man on the earth.
Ques May we say that as God has come out through death we have to go in through death?
FER Yes; you can only get free of your position as a living man on earth by death.
Ques You get everything on the ground of death, as to title?
FER Yes; but you must go in by death if you are going to enter into privilege, which does not belong to you as a living man on earth, because it must put you away. It is only death that can put an end to you as a living man on earth — but then it is Christ’s death.
Ques How do we appropriate death?
FER I think we are attracted. It is by attraction. The soul is attracted to Himself, and then we are willing to accept the way. You will be where Christ is, nothing short of that will satisfy you; that is what love claims; I will be where He is; that is what makes it a privilege to accept death. It is wrought by affection. Love claims to be where He is.
Rem It is the known Person who attracts.
FER Yes; that is why the priesthood is brought in on your side first in Hebrews. He engages your heart and affections thus, then affection claims to be where Christ is.
[p. 129] Ques Is it the same thought as in John 6: 68, when the disciple says, “Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life”?
FER Exactly; it was plain there was no one else to go to. No one can minister anything to me but Christ, and I cannot get Christ anywhere else but where He is. The secret of Christ’s love to us lies in our having been given to Him by the Father. The lines —
“Thou gav’st us, in eternal love,
To Him, to bring us home to Thee”
express the thought.
Rem When we talk of having accepted death, we must remember it is not a kind of monkish effort; it is real affection and attraction to the Lord. I see it with Elijah and Elisha. “I will not leave thee” was always his answer; three times he says it, “I will not leave thee”; then he goes over Jordan with him.
FER When you come into the assembly you may for the moment think what a crooked person this or that is. You have partialities for some and prejudices toward others, but if your soul gets into the power of the Spirit of God, He carries you above all that, and all fleshly distinctions, to the place where Christ is all and in all. Assembly privilege is on the ground of death: you have gone out of life on earth, and are in the enjoyment of your privilege before God. He leads you into the enjoyment of the Father’s love outside all this.
Ques When you speak of being in the assembly, you do not merely mean sitting together with a company of saints?
FER Of course not! That leaves out the presence of Christ in the assembly, and it is Christ’s presence in the assembly that leads us to Him, outside all here, that we may be His companions. It [p. 130] is not going into the room, it is the power leading you in affection outside everything here into the holiest of all where He is. Of course we come together simply as christians.
Rem You take that ground when you are there. You begin with the Lord’s death, which abolishes all distinctions. Most people end with it.
Ques Do not people sometimes think mere outward connection with the assembly is sufficient?
FER That would be leaving out the place Christ has there. The soul must realize its privilege of companionship with Christ before the Father.
Ques What is the force of Hebrews 10: 19, 20, “by the blood of Jesus, the new and living way”?
FER The blood is the ground — the title on which you can be there consistently with God’s glory. The new and living way is the way you have to go in. It is not the power that is presented in Hebrews that takes you in, but the way you go in. People have not a proper idea of the sanctuary. The sanctuary is God’s blessed revelation of Himself, and of His satisfaction in His Son.
Ques I suppose the best way to learn the holiest is to be there?
FER I think you must learn what the sanctuary is first.
Rem I am not quite clear as to what the sanctuary is.
FER I think it is the delight of God in that which He has accomplished for His own glory in that Man. It is wonderful that His infinite and eternal satisfaction should be found in a Man! and One that is an adequate object for the love of God. You get the idea in the ark of the covenant and the mercy-seat. That is the wonderful thing that has come to light, not simply what God is from all eternity but what He is as come out, that He has [p. 131] found in a Man His infinite and eternal glory and satisfaction.
Ques Would you say Christ Himself personally was the sanctuary of God, and if we are found there in our affections and heart we are there with God?
FER I think so; other things come out in connection with the sanctuary; you get the connection of Christ with Israel; therein was the table, the shewbread. He is not only the antitype of the holiest, but the antitype of the whole thing. The sanctuary is, as I understand it, the revelation, the light of God in Christ in that which He has accomplished for His own glory. It is not only God has come out, but He has gained for Himself an adequate object in Man. It is a wonderful thing that man could be an adequate object for God.
Ques Do you mean that what is portrayed in the sanctuary is God’s delight in man?
FER Yes; the eye of God could rest on the ark of the covenant and the mercy-seat, and see a Man in whom was fulfilled all His counsels and purposes. We speak of the sanctuary in its application to us, but if you speak of the sanctuary in a broad way, you must go on and take in its application to Israel and all.
Ques Does it include the thought of God’s dwelling-place?
FER The sanctuary includes the holiest and the holy place. It is not only God’s dwelling-place, but that He rests in infinite satisfaction in what He has accomplished for Himself, not only for us but for His own eternal satisfaction.
Ques Does 2 Corinthians 3: 18 correspond with this?
FER Yes.
Rem If the veil had not been rent for God to come out, we could not have [p. 132] gone in.
FER Quite so; it involves it, but it is important to keep things as Scripture puts them. God must come out if we are to go in. It is of the very last importance to maintain that the veil is rent on the divine side, and that is equally true for the millennium as for now.
Ques Did it signify the setting aside of the whole of the old system?
FER Yes; the first system of things could not exist at all with a rent veil; that system could only exist so long as God did not reveal Himself; the whole thing must go when God came out, it must all pass away.
Rem God did come out in a certain way when Christ came into the world.
FER Yes; it was the beginning. The revelation of the Father in the Son was complete in His life here, but the revelation of the love of God came out in the death of Christ.
Ques If the sanctuary included the holy place and the holiest, why was the veil put between the two?
Rem You find a remarkable difference in Chronicles and Kings. In Chronicles you get the veil and the brazen altar. In Kings there is no veil and no brazen altar, but you get the oracle there. Israel itself, I believe, is much more in question in Chronicles; the outward display in Kings. Israel is the place on earth through which everything comes out from heaven. I do not think Israel goes in, but you get a company in the millennium morally near to heaven. The porch is specially dwelt upon in Kings. My own impression is that the porch figures the administration of what is heavenly to earth; it is not heaven or earth exactly, but the connection between the two. Though not in heaven, yet the one hundred and forty-four thousand (Revelation 14) are morally beyond the earth, they sing the song of [p. 133] heaven, and are thus a connecting link. You get in the first part of the sanctuary the holy place — what is heavenly in its aspect earthward. You get the oracle in Kings, because Israel are the people who get God’s mind from within.
FER The whole order of things then will be coming out, not our going in.
Rem We have gone in, they do not go in, but they communicate the heavenly, they learn the heavenly song, though not in heaven. They are the people to whom God’s mind is made known, and through whom the revelation comes out.
Ques Will it not be true in that day that Christ Himself will have come out?
FER I doubt if Christ is ever seen apart from the church. It is in the church, the heavenly Jerusalem, He is known. He does not come out apart from the church; there He is displayed. The body is the vessel in which He is fully declared. “Every eye shall see him”. It will all be made good, but I cannot tell you how. He comes to be glorified in His saints, and admired in all them that believe. It is there He is displayed, I believe. That is what I understand by the expression, “his body, the fulness of him that fills all in all”. He is fully declared. I do not think Israel will ever have again the same thing that has been in the presence of the Lord, as He was among them. I believe Israel missed their opportunity when Christ came among them in humiliation, and my judgment is, they will never have what they missed, they will never get that opportunity again, they will have to learn everything in the church. The identification will be complete there.
Ques I understand you to say that before getting into the holiest we have to learn Christ in the sanctuary. I do not quite get hold of that; will you say a little word [p. 134] about it?
FER I do not think I said you learn Christ in the sanctuary, but what I said was this — you must learn the revelation of God, the way in which He has come out, before you can enter in. The high priest could not go in until the sanctuary existed. You must know Christ as Apostle before you know Him as Priest. Moses inaugurated the system and Aaron maintained the system that was inaugurated. The system is inaugurated by Christ as Son and Apostle. It is maintained by Christ as Priest. You must first apprehend Him as Apostle before you can be led in by the Priest. What He leads you to is the Father. It is the Father’s delight in the Son, not only God’s complacency in Man.
Ques Is not the great intent of the Spirit in Hebrews to lead us into the holiest?
FER I think so. I came across a beautiful remark by J.N.D. which confirmed me in this thought and opened it out, that in the first part of Hebrews Christ comes to our side with sympathy and succour, in order to bring us to His own side; the great point is to lead you to God’s side where He is at home and where He orders everything. Christ orders nothing in this world, He sympathizes with me down here and succours me, but He orders everything for God. In the beginning of chapter 8 the “summary” is “We have such a one high priest who has sat down on the right hand of the throne of the greatness in the heavens; minister of the holy places”.
Rem We have nothing else but Christ.
FER No; and what can you want more? What can equal for a moment the fact that I am an object of the love of Christ and He takes me into His delight before God? You will not get to Him except by affection. Faith will not take you in, though you cannot get in without faith, because without faith you would not have light from God.
[p. 135] It is affection that takes you in. Power will take you in by-and-by, but nothing but affection will take you in now.
Ques Is to “draw near with a true heart” response in affection?
FER I think so, but it is a true heart — affection. Faith is light from God, but when it comes to the realisation of anything with God and with Christ it is always a question of the Spirit of God working in you by affection.
Rem That is the value of the illustration so often put before us of Rebecca and the servant.
FER Yes, if you go into heavenly places, it is all by affection; you only go there by affection now. By-and-by the power of God will take you there; so too in regard to the sanctuary. If you are going to be led in in communion with Christ it is a question of affection, appreciating His affection. Affection goes in with Him, nothing short of that will satisfy it. That is why 1 Corinthians 13 comes in in connection with the assembly, because love is your measure; without it you are nothing. You may have everything, “all gifts”, and be nothing. Your stature is measured by love and love abides when faith and hope shall cease.
Ques What is the “veil ... upon their heart”?
FER They were all in that state; that with which the veil was connected was Israel, who were clinging to the first order of things; and God has set all aside in the person of Christ. They were doing their utmost to maintain the first order of things which God had set aside and they could not see clearly.
Ques A christian may be in that state?
FER Yes, if you are clinging to “beggarly elements” you are in that state. Christendom is set up on the pattern of the first order.