THE SPIRIT HERE TO DISCLOSE ANOTHER WORLD
[p. 279] THE SPIRIT HERE TO DISCLOSE ANOTHER WORLD
Rem I suppose the being “offended” is a very real thing today as well as in that day?
FER I think people get offended and are stumbled over Christ because they get their minds full of what is of man. They get exaggerated ideas of the importance of man so Christ is not good enough for them.
W They want to use Christ as a help to themselves?
FER I think so.
P What are “these things” the Lord refers to in verse 4?
THR You get the same words “these things” in chapter 15: 21. There was the same kind of stumbling in John the baptist (Matthew 11: 3). He could not understand Christ being rejected, though he had had the testimony. “Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending ... he it is who baptises with the Holy Spirit”. Yet afterwards John said, “Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?” The disciples would have to meet this rejection, and might be stumbled by it; but Christ had foretold them.
AH Is this the treatment the witness for Christ in this world would get from the hands of the world?
FER The world of which the Lord speaks is the religious world; at that moment it was the Jew. I do not think the religious world cares for vitality; I think that has been proved over and over again. If vitality comes in it shakes a person free of the religious world.
THR And God helps us by the opposition to be free of the world. The Lord says, “They shall put you out of the synagogues”, not, you will have to go out. If we are Christ-like they will not have us, which is a greater test than having to leave them. Often when we do something we think something of ourselves; but when we are cast out that is a different case.
FER Christ has come, not to produce some effect in the present world, that is not the thought in christianity. If we were to run on that line we should not incur so much opposition. Christ is accepted in a way to put honour on man. That is the idea today, but Christ never could attach Himself to this world to put it right.
AH I suppose that was the line the Lord’s brethren were on in chapter 7: 4, “If thou do these things, shew thyself to the world”?
FER Christ could not come to put this world right. Everything in this world is tested by Christ, for if He comes in He must of necessity be the Head and Beginning of another world; in the nature of things He is the Beginning, He could not be the end of an existing system.
THR Christ is going away in this chapter, and the result is that everything is put in its true place. The Comforter comes as witness of the truth. It was necessary that Christ should go away in order that the Comforter should come. He bears witness as to Christ in His right place as Head over all things, and as to the world in its right place, as judged.
GG “They have not known the Father, nor me”?
FER There had been the presentation of the Father’s works and words; I doubt if the test would have been complete apart from that. In Him all the fulness was pleased to dwell. There was the full presentation of God in Christ; and the works He did and the words He spoke were the Father’s works and the Father’s words, carried out and spoken in [p. 281] the power of the Spirit. There would not have been the same completeness of testimony had not the presentation been so complete.
AL That brought out the state of man — absolutely incapable of receiving anything.
FER Yes, and you can understand that there would not have been the exposure of man without that presentation.
ER “Believe me for the very works’ sake”.
M In what way would the world know that the prince of this world is judged?
FER I do not understand that the world would know it, it is more that we should know it; the presence of the Spirit here is the evidence of it, and those who have the Spirit have the evidence.
AL Then I suppose it is only those who have the Spirit that get the benefit?
FHB Then if we do not enter into what is true as to the world, we cannot enter into what follows — the things of Christ?
FER People have an idea sometimes that Christ came to set this world right, even the disciples had; we must get clear of that idea; He never did.
FC To set this world right would be to recognise man.
FER The world around is a system that has grown up around man departed from God. The Spirit has come to make known another world. “All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you”. The Spirit has come, that we, “being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height”.
AH And that really is the “hidden wisdom” Paul speaks about to the Corinthians.
AL What is the connection, “of righteousness, because I go to my Father”?
FER The world is convicted on that plea. Christ was rejected here, but He has gone to the Father and righteousness is established there.
GG Would it be that He is the only righteous One and He has gone to the Father?
WW I thought that the idea is, that He was rejected in this order of things, but accepted in another order of things.
FC Is He not the righteous One, and if righteousness is to be found anywhere it must be there?
FER Yes, righteousness is secured there.
WHB What is the difference between the statement, “If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin”: (chapter 15: 22), and this in chapter 16, the Spirit coming to convict the world of sin? Is the one abstract and the other the conviction in the minds of those who have the Spirit?
FER I suppose so I think most of us understand the position of the world in regard of God, that its position relatively to Him is sin; but I think what we are less acquainted with is the other side, the things of Christ, that is, another world.
WHB Is it not as the other side comes into your soul that the affections go out more and more?
FER I think when people are awakened to recognise the presence of the Spirit, they recognise, on the other hand, the absence of Christ, and they will make some move as to the world. I think the move made of late years has been in leaving the worldly religious systems.
FHB Then that prepares the way for the opening out of another world to us by the Spirit?
FER Until people recognise the presence of the Spirit and the position of Christ in regard to the world they cannot make much progress. The moment people get a sense of the Spirit’s presence, it is sure to bring home to them that Christ is rejected, and thus their position relatively to the world is [p. 283] altered; it was so with every one of us. The two things go together.
DLH It is a remarkable thing that in the christian world there is no sense of Christ being rejected.
FER Things are all taken up simply as facts and not in their significance; the death, resurrection and ascension of Christ are merely facts to them and all is interwoven with the world.
WHB How are saints awakened now?
FER The Spirit of God from time to time will stir. Defection is allowed to go on, but the Spirit will make His presence felt, and it has been felt over and over again. In every movement of God it has been the Spirit making His presence felt.
WHB Does He not awaken from outside? “Awake thou that sleepest ... and Christ shall give thee light”.
FER Yes; but no one will awake but by the movement of the Spirit, though there is the responsibility. The Spirit is here in the saints, and thus the movement comes in connection with them, and this, in spite of all the defection in christendom. It is really the revival of the Spirit of Christ in the saints.
GG The movement of the Spirit, the recovery spoken of last night, would be really a revival of Christ.
AL Does not that apply now — “If any man hear my words”.
FER Yes; but none will hear His words apart from the movement of the Spirit.
WJM When there is defection, God must begin to work?
FER I think so.
THR It is a great thing to apprehend that there are two scenes: one scene dominated by sin, and another scene where righteousness is established. Take Romans — I think people think a great deal [p. 284] more of the forgiveness of sins than of quitting a scene dominated by sin, and being alive to God in righteousness.
FK You take that in connection with “Of sin, because they believe not on me; of righteousness, because I go to my Father”.
THR It is not conviction of sin and righteousness. It is conviction concerning.
AH Then the demonstration is “of sin” in this world, and “righteousness” with the Father?
HD'AC J.B.S. said that righteousness is not here. It went to the Father.
THR I think it is a wonderful thing, that there is a scene where sin is not. Righteousness is not here; even in the millennium righteousness will look down from heaven. The scene here is dominated by sin.
GG Then you do not think it is a question of a righteous umpire, like Psalm 17?
FK Is it that righteousness is seen there in His person?
FER I think it is that all that is of the Father is with the Father, and all will come out from the Father.
THR The Spirit brings the demonstration concerning righteousness and sin, that sin is here and righteousness is not here.
FER There are two things — the world has proved its lawlessness, and would not have righteousness. In refusing Christ the world has refused righteousness and therefore in regard to the world righteousness is an absolute impossibility, and the practical effect of that is we must look for all to come out from the Father; all that is going to be displayed must be evolved from Him, and we can look for nothing from the world. God is allowing the world to run its course, but in due time we shall see a universe set forth in [p. 285] a day.
THR Christ being there, everything is ripe to come out, though all awaits the working out of God’s ways.
FER Yes; God allows the present world to run its course and works His own will.
AL Is it not true that though the Lord speaks of the world, and the demonstration, it is that we may understand it?
FER Yes; the Holy Spirit demonstrates sin, righteousness and judgment, that we may understand the true position of things in regard of this world, and thus be prepared for the things of Christ being shewn to us. That is the position of things whether anyone understands it or not.
THR I think it is an immense thing to get things put in place.
GC “Let my sentence come forth from thy presence”. God’s sentence is a righteous one.
THR I think the devil got his sentence when he touched Christ at the cross; he brought all the world to crucify Him. He had a title to touch us, but he had no title to touch Christ: “The prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me”. He touched Christ, and touching Him involved his judgment.
FER All between God and the world came to an issue in Christ. His coming was a test to the world, but He was also the Beginning for God. God being presented in Christ has fully tested the world, and the world has proved itself lawless in rejecting Christ, and so, for the moment, righteousness is in another scene with the Father, and all must come from the Father.
AH Everything here is closed now, and He opens up another world.
FER Yes, and I think that is what the saints have to be [p. 286] occupied with.
FHB I think we want to “comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height”.
FER Yes; we need the apprehension of all the extent of these things, of all that which is purposed by the Father and centred in the Son.
AC In a sort of way, the world was judged when Christ came into it.
FER I think so — “All things that the Father hath” — it is most wonderful to think of: everything that the Father has is established in the Son — in the righteous One who is with the Father. It will all come out; I think God will greatly surprise the universe one day. He will set forth a new world in a day. The power of God will set it all forth thus, and for this reason, that all is there, it is all prepared, ready to be revealed. You have “the church of the firstborn”, and “the spirits of just men made perfect”; everything is there.
WHB Then the Spirit of God is here to give enlightenment and power?
FER The Lord says, “He will shew you things to come”. I think God would have our hearts to apprehend all that is before Him, “breadth, and length, and depth, and height”. God would have us to be in the divine secret. There are two things necessary for us — the one, entering the holiest; the other, going over the land, where you learn the expanse of all that which Christ is going to fill. I think the holiest is where you learn the secret of God, His resource — that is, Christ. Then, in going over the land, you get to know the expanse which He is going to fill; that answers to “things to come”.
Ques Will you explain why you must go into the holiest?
FER I think every one has to learn the resource of holy love. I see holy love in God, but I want to learn the resource of holy love, how God is able [p. 287] to make His holy love effectual to fill the universe of bliss. You will never learn Christ in that light but in the holiest.
DLH Is not that “Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith”?
FER I think so. Christ is the secret of God — “the hidden wisdom”.
Ques Is the land the Father’s house?
FER It may be, but I think the land is typical of the inheritance. No one is suitable to act as a priest till he has entered the holiest; he is only a believer till he enters the holiest.
WJ Do you connect this with Ephesians 1?
FER I think so. The fact is, that the practical effect of the holiest would be that people would sit lightly to things here. In coming in contact with people, I do not find that they have divine things much in view. See how occupied people are with their health — very careful of their life here; it would be different if they had Christ before them as the One able to fill everything with the holy love of God.
WJ “Until I went into the sanctuary”.
FER Yes; when there we find that the best things in the world are really slippery places.
Ques How does a believer become a priest?
FER By learning that he is kindred to Christ in the love of God. Then he is a priest; he proves his genealogy. Christ has the calling, and we are priests in virtue of being kindred to Christ.
AL Saints by calling; priests by association.
FER By being kindred to Christ, that is by the Spirit. The priests must also be consecrated.
Ques Is that shewn in Aaron’s rod that budded? (Numbers 17.)
FER Aaron’s rod budding was the proof of Aaron’s priesthood; it shewed that all priesthood must be in the power of resurrection. If a man is [p. 288] not on that ground he is not qualified to be a priest as to his own sense of things. It is life out of death.
FC What you say would account for there being so little priestly service. If souls do not know this there cannot be priestly service.
FER I think not. How may people bring the holiest into the meeting? You can hardly find the holiest in the meeting except you bring it there. People cannot jump into things when they come together.
THL You hear a great deal of thanksgiving to the Lord for what He has done, but very little sense of association with Christ.
FHB Then I expect the general thought is the other way about — not to bring the holiest into the meeting, but to find it there.
FER You are not going to find it if you do not bring it; you are not going to reach it in a moment. I think people must have a sense of the holiest, and familiarity with it, if they are going to get it in the meeting. I should think the ideal meeting would be when every saint brings the holiest there. If we eat the bread and drink the wine, it is not to put us in accord with the death of Christ, we should be in accord with that death already. Then you realise the presence of Christ. You realise the holy love of God. It is only in the holy love of God that you can realise the presence of Christ, for that is the atmosphere in which Christ abides.
Ques The priests carried the ark?
FER So we have to carry God’s testimony, but that is not the holiest ... I think we are all fitted in private for the place we take in the assembly. You may depend on it every man carries into the meeting the best he has got. I think the holiest is the apprehension of a scene which is characterised by the holy love of God, and when you get there you find what God’s [p. 289] resource is.
THR When Christ was here everything was veiled. Now there is no veil: all God’s glory shines forth in Him, and we are privileged to be in the light of all God’s glory as set forth in Christ.
FER Exactly.