(2) THE APPROACH EQUAL TO THE REVELATION
([p. 196] 2) THE APPROACH EQUAL TO THE REVELATION
Hebrews 1: 8 - 11; Hebrews 9: 1 - 28
FER It is plain that in chapter 1 we get the Apostle and in chapter 2 the High Priest. I think the entire system of the world to come depends on the Priest touching the mercy-seat. Christ has entered in as Priest, but in the very fact of His being the Mercy-Seat of course, the Priest touches the mercy-seat. What it really means is, the approach is equal to the revelation: the revelation is identified with the Apostle, and the approach with the Priest.
JSO You approach by Him who is the revelation.
FER Exactly. Aaron was not equal to Moses, but now you get the Apostle and High Priest of our profession as one — Christ Jesus — you get perfection.
PRM Do you use the term ‘touching the mercy-seat’ in the sense of identification?
FER Yes; He goes in as priest but in the very fact of the two being One, the priest touches the mercy-seat.
ERC Does the apostleship cease at the cross?
FER Well, it holds good now. God has spoken but the effect of what has been spoken abides — it is all maintained. The law was given by Moses, but grace and truth are come to pass by Jesus Christ.
ASL You said the approach is as great as the revelation — is that in connection with the saints?
FER The High Priest has gone in, and we are priests in virtue of being kindred to the High Priest — like the sons of Aaron were kindred to Aaron. It comes out in chapter 2, “I will declare thy name unto my brethren”.
JSO As He is the only way of approach, we come unto Him.
FER I think so; you get in through Him. “Through Him we have both access by one Spirit to the Father”. He is the measure in a kind of way, of our approach.
DLH Is not the thought on the one hand of God coming out to man, and on the other of man going in to God?
FER Yes, but you could not get it brought about apart from Christ — you can only bring perfection in by Christ.
JSO You would use the word ‘approach’ a little differently with Christ than with us?
FER I would indeed, but there is the idea of entering in.
JSO He goes in in all the value of what is accomplished.
FER Exactly; but then He goes in entirely on our behalf, and that is why it is not without blood. He must go in on the value of redemption. I think people have to distinguish between what you may call the perfection of christianity in itself, and the imperfection of those who profess it. You get the coming outside and the entering inside in perfection in Christ. It is in proportion as man appreciates Christ that he has power to approach.
ED On God’s side our approach would be equal to Christ’s.
PRM It is not as man that He is Apostle?
FER No: God has spoken by His Son, who is the effulgence of His glory, and the exact expression of His substance, upholding all things by the word of His power.
JSO For the sake of those Hebrew christians to whom he was writing the apostle presents the Son in contrast to all that had gone before.
FER Exactly. You get the throne, and [p. 198] everything,
hanging on the Speaker. When everything is changed — “Thou art the Same, and thy years shall not fail”.
DLH There is a point of contact in His Person — He is the Son who is Apostle and the Son who is the Priest.
FER That there is a point of contact, I quite admit. On the one side He touches God, and on the other side He touches man. In that way you get God and man brought together, and the whole system of the world to come depends upon that.
ASL What is the difference in the thought of mediator and apostle — they are not the same?
FER The Mediator is spoken of as between God and man. Hebrews contemplates God taking up a remnant of Israel, but that remnant becomes the church.
ED It is the Mediator of the new covenant in Hebrews.
FER Yes, not the Mediator between God and man.
Ques Does the thought of Apostle go on to the end of verse 4, chapter 2?
FER I think so.
MS'D Why did you say the apostleship ceased at His death?
FER I did not say so. I tried to modify it. All the light of God came out at the cross when the veil was rent from top to bottom. The revelation therefore was complete. He could not leave anything else to be revealed.
DLH I think there might be some little misconception as to the meaning of the word ‘revelation’. When you use the term you mean the revelation of God?
FER I mean the revelation of God in His mind and thought toward man.
[p. 199] DLH Exactly, and it must be pretty clear that there could be nothing left to complete it.
FER The work of the Apostle was done and the revelation was complete. The system has been inaugurated. The Apostle has inaugurated the system of our profession by the revelation of God.
JSO I suppose the word ‘revelation’ is in connection with the mystery of God?
FER It is the mystery of His will which has been hid.
ASL “Has spoken to us in the person of the Son” (verse 2) — that is the revelation of God?
FER Yes: the mind of God made known — and we have to take heed to what we have heard.
SLJ Has not the revelation of what christianity is come from the glory? — we do not get it at the cross.
FER You do not get anything added to the revelation — the Holy Spirit added nothing to that. Everything came out when Christ was here. He was the expression in His Person of what God had to say. It culminated in the veil of the temple being rent in twain from top to bottom.
DLH The words here seem to suppose the completeness of the revelation — “Who, being the effulgence of his glory”.
JSO There was no competency to take it in until the Holy Spirit came?
FER No.
ASL It is generally said that when the veil was rent God came out. Did He not come out fully when Christ was here?
FER All that Christ did in His service here was in view of His death, but it was in death that God came out fully.
WJ The Son was the only One competent to set forth God, and the Spirit is the only One competent to make it good in us.
FER Exactly. “God commends His love toward us ... Christ died for us” — there is the expression of the love of God; but then the “love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit”. Every detail of the life of the Lord is explained by His death. You could not understand the detail of the gospels except by the death of Christ. All that came out at the cross governed all His ministry. Take for instance “thy sins be forgiven thee”; how can you understand that except by the anticipation of His death? Giving sight to the blind, hearing to the deaf, and so on, was all an expression of the mercy of God, but it was all lighted up by His death, because He came in to give effect to the mercy of God. Then again, all the time the Lord was here, He would never tolerate anything of man, because in His death He was going to terminate man. On the one hand He was introducing the mercy of God and on the other there was the putting aside all the pretension of man. He went about doing good and healing all that were oppressed of the devil for God was with Him; but it was not likely that He was going to put any sanction upon man in the flesh, because He was going to put him to death. You will find these principles in everything the Lord did.
WJ It is remarkable to notice the quotations from the fourth book of Psalms.
FER The whole of the Hebrews is built up on the Psalms. You get in the Psalms the testimony of the Christ very distinctly.
ED Is there any connection between the Apostle and the world to come?
FER Yes; the epistle all has reference to the world to come. Christ has come in as Apostle, but He comes in as King and Priest also, and that brings in the world to come. The great point of the first chapter is the apostleship. Then the throne comes in;
[p. 201] you must have security against lawlessness within and enemies without in any country and God is going to establish a universe on that principle. All that transpires here now is allowed in the providence of God — not in the light of God: but God is going to build up a universe according to the light of God.
WJ In Psalm 94 you have the throne of iniquity.
FER Yes, quite so, and there will be the throne of iniquity when Satan gives his authority to the beast — “Shall the throne of iniquity have fellowship with thee, which frameth mischief by a law?”.
HCA The priest maintains for God the company within.
FER That is during the time of God’s providence but when God comes out, then the Priest comes out. In Zechariah we read — “He shall be a priest upon his throne; and the counsel of peace shall be between them both” (chapter 6: 13). The church is the vessel of testimony now and the church will be the ruling seat then. Jerusalem on earth had become desolate because it was under law; then it is that God brings in the heavenly Jerusalem which rules over the kings of the earth. The earthly Jerusalem never has the place she had before, but she gets her character from the heavenly Jerusalem.
Ques Will the Lord come out as Priest because He is Priest after the order of Melchisedec and not after Aaron?
FER Yes. When Christ comes out. He comes out as King and Priest and He comes out to establish blessing. Moses and Aaron came out to bless the people — you get the figure of it there.
SLJ Is Israel looked upon now as in the city of refuge?
FER I think so. God provided for the true Israel in the church. Jerusalem on earth was bound to go. Like Moses, he could not enter the land, not [p. 202] simply because he failed, but because he represented the principle of law. The old Jerusalem is in bondage with her children, and God puts that aside and brings in the heavenly Jerusalem. In connection with that, what you get in Isaiah 60 is very beautiful — it is a challenge to “Arise, shine; for thy light is come”. The earthly Jerusalem will be lighted by the heavenly, but she will shine as never before. It is in the heavenly city God shows forth “the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus”. The earthly Jerusalem will shine in that light.
JSO And the Sun of righteousness arising with healing in His wings will be through the medium of the heavenly city?
FER I think so.
DLH What do you understand by the great salvation in the second chapter?
FER I look upon it as being Christ Himself. Where can you make salvation out except in Christ? You cannot find any escape from the world as it is except in Christ.
Ques Is not that why it is called a great salvation?
FER I think so.
Ques In what sense do we inherit it (end of chapter 1)?
FER That verse is speaking in a kind of way of what angels were “sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation”. It is indefinite. But if you look at salvation as a present thing, Christ must be it, because there is no salvation apart from Christ. What possible outlet is there from the world except by Christ? “By me if any man enter in, he shall be saved”. I think the disciples in a sense enjoyed salvation in the presence of Christ. Nothing could harm them. The Lord kept them, and they [p. 203] were saved by His presence. I think we are saved by being brought into attachment to Him.
JSO When the Jews refused his word, Paul says — “For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee ... for salvation unto the ends of the earth”, Acts 13: 47.
FER That will do, will it not? It is very wide. That is what Christ is to us — salvation.
Ques Is there any connection with that in Simeon?
FER Yes. He took the babe in his arms and said, “Mine eyes have seen thy salvation”, Luke 2: 30.
WJ It is very interesting in the 80th Psalm, where it is repeated, “Cause thy face to shine, and we shall be saved”.
FER Yes. That is why the world to come is brought into view here. If you want to be outside the judgment of God, it is by being in attachment to Christ.
JSO Like Noah and his house — “Come thou and all thy house into the ark”.
FER Exactly.
Ques In Timothy it speaks of the salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus?
FER The salvation is in Christ Jesus. Faith is the way you come into it. I think it is that you get out of bondage and you can only do so by being in Christ.
Ques Salvation is a continuous thing?
F.E.R. Oh yes!