(5) THE PRESENT IS A TIME OF EXERCISE
([p. 226] 5) THE PRESENT IS A TIME OF EXERCISE
FER There are points of similarity between our position, and the position of Israel. At the same time there are strong points of contrast.
DLH But we are put to the test like Israel.
FER I think that is so. The first question is in a certain sense a point of similarity — “Who was it, who, having heard, provoked? but was it not all who came out of Egypt by Moses?”
C-IB In what way similar?
FER I suppose we have come out of Egypt. It was a people who were on the ground of God’s deliverance who provoked. The same may be true in regard to us.
Rem It was they who fell in the wilderness.
FER Yes, and the principle of it was, they did not hearken to the word.
Ques Where is the contrast?
FER They were brought out of Egypt by Moses, and the point of contrast in those spoken of in the epistle is that they had fled for refuge. That was the position of the Hebrews, and our position too, to a certain extent.
DLH We have had the gospel preached to us as they had a gospel preached to them.
FER Yes, we are in the same position in that sense.
ER Would the gospel take in the purpose of God?
FER Yes, I think so.
C-IB I suppose the contrast is that there is One who has entered into His rest?
FER Well, I suppose so. Israel had been taken up after the flesh, but these had not been taken up [p. 227] after the flesh. If there were not a point of contrast in that way, it would really be a repetition of what had been, which certainly God never intended. I think there are two great tests to which we are subjected. One is the presence of the Spirit, and the other is the glad tidings. You get the one in chapter 3 and the other in chapter 4.
ER In what way are we tested as to the Spirit?
FER I think it is by the voice of the Spirit — “Wherefore as the Holy Spirit saith”. If we are God’s house and the Spirit is there, we have to listen to the voice of the Spirit. I think christendom has failed entirely in regard to that test, having disregarded almost entirely the presence of the Spirit. The consequence is, they have hardened their hearts. Apostasy has set in to a very large extent, because they have practically ignored the presence of the Spirit.
Rem It is very striking that in 1 Timothy where the house of God is spoken of, it is immediately followed by “The Spirit speaks expressly”.
FER Yes; and so in the third chapter of this epistle — you have to listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit.
PRM Why is the Spirit brought in before faith in the report?
Rem I did not think the Hebrews were brought into blessing by faith in the report.
FER No, they had fled for refuge — it is more that kind of idea.
DLH You get the same order in other places — for instance 2 Thessalonians 2: 13 — “Salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth”.
FER You really never get faith in the truth characteristically except by the Spirit.
DLH Will you please explain that. I think there are difficulties in a good many minds in regard to [p. 228] that, for we have understood that you get faith first, and then the Spirit.
FER Faith is a characteristic — “The just shall live by faith” — and faith characteristically is by the Spirit. I think every man is responsible to believe in the testimony that God addressed to men, but when you come to look at faith, as a characteristic, you must have the Spirit.
DLH What about the Old Testament folk — those who lived by faith?
FER I think God helped them, everything was in view of the time when He would give the Spirit.
DLG In that way anticipating in some sort?
FER Exactly. Whatever this life was, they lived by faith — “The just shall live by faith”. I think in all that they were divinely supported. God has just as much regard for them as for us, and there cannot be a doubt for a moment that God supported them. Faith is simply a fruit of the Spirit.
WB Do we not receive the Spirit on the principle of faith?
FER Yes, you must believe God’s testimony. Man must believe the report — God gives him grace to do so; but the Spirit becomes the spring and source of faith. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit.
DLH That scripture makes it quite plain — that faith is a fruit of the Spirit.
FER Every man is responsible to believe God’s testimony, and God gives man grace to believe it. Then the Spirit is given and faith is characteristic of the principle of life in that way. It is a fruit of the Spirit. Anyone can see it is one thing to believe a testimony which God addressed to man and another thing for faith to be the principle of man’s living. Now, for instance, faith is the substantiating of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. It is the principle of our life.
[p. 229] Ques Would you say the Old Testament saints were helped by the Spirit? David said “Take not thy holy spirit from me”.
FER Undoubtedly they were helped by the Spirit.
Ques The first aspect, I suppose, would be the obedience of faith?
FER No, I think the obedience of faith is the test of faith. That is really the place of the Scriptures — the test of faith.
WB Is not the first time that it is mentioned in Genesis 15? “Abraham believed God”.
FER Yes.
WB Well, that was a faith that was grounded on a divine work.
FER Quite so, he believed what God said to him. “Sanctification ... and belief of the truth” (the latter follows upon the first) “whereunto he called you by our gospel”. I think the great thing is to apprehend what God has in view in regard to man — that men should receive the gift of the Spirit. Everything has its source and spring in the Spirit. You get expressions such as “faith in Christ Jesus”. That is not exactly faith in Christ Jesus as the object of faith, but faith in Christ Jesus is characteristic of the christian.
PRM Is the “report” here by the Spirit on the day of Pentecost?
FER We have no report of the land of promise except by the Holy Spirit.
WB But is not that report found in the Holy Scriptures?
FER No, it is recorded but not reported. It is reported by the Spirit. The Spirit has come to bring report of Christ in the land of promise — that is what I take the report to be.
WB That reached people through [p. 230] the gospel?
FER Yes; but I think it goes beyond the gospel of the grace of God.
WB Yes, but “Whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel”.
FER But the truth of the gospel covers everything. Evidently, it is as easy as possible to see that the Holy Spirit has brought down a report of Christ in relation to the world to come. The Lord Himself gave commission that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name, but the Holy Spirit has brought in something different — He has brought in the light of Christ in relation to the land of promise.
Ques Would “faith” in the gospel of John be characteristic?
FER Always, from beginning to end, it is characteristic of the person. It is the believing person all through John’s gospel. The term “gospel” is a little too conventional — it is “glad tidings”. Hebrews occupies a very peculiar place, and you cannot put the Jews exactly on the same platform as the gentiles. The announcement to the gentiles was “repentance and forgiveness of sins” but the Jews had “fled for refuge”. They take up in a way the position of the man-slayer — they had been the man-slayer.
C-IB That makes Hebrews rather difficult for the gentiles.
FER It is difficult for the gentiles. They have not been guilty of crucifying Christ but they have come under the guilt of blood and they are those who have “fled for refuge to lay hold on the hope set before us”.
Ques “We which have believed do enter into rest” — what is the “rest”?
FER I think it is the purpose of God in regard to believers, that they should enter into rest. It is really God’s rest in regard to His works.
DDH [p. 231] Then in the full application of that, it must refer to the world to come.
FER Undoubtedly. It refers to the seventh day. The seventh day has been a very long day, because it has never had its completion yet.
C-IB The seventh day is the day in which God will be able to bring everything under the new covenant?
FER I think so, and it will be a time when God will have complete complacency in everything. The Israel of God will enter into God’s rest beyond all doubt.
HCA I suppose everything in the rest of God takes its commencement in Christ?
FER I think it does, and where God will find His complacency is in gathering up everything in Christ. So the Lord Jesus is spoken of as the beginning of the creation of God, and if He is the beginning, He is also the crown of the creation of God. When He comes in as the true Witness — as the beginning of the creation of God, then it will be that God will find complacency in all His works. The rest of God is dependent on Christ filling all things and the one who enters into that, enters into His rest. If Christ is capable of filling a heart that was once estranged from Him, I think He is capable of filling a universe.
C-IB Because all hearts are alike.
FER Yes.
C-IB Then did He not bring in a rest constantly in the Old Testament?
FER Well, the Lord Jesus said in Matthew 11 — “Come unto me ... and I will give you rest”. If I had the capability of entering into the thought morally that Christ is capable of filling “all things” then I think I should enter into His rest morally.
DLH The great conclusion here is — “There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God”
and however one might enter into it morally, it remains.
FER Well, one very good thing is this — the present is a time of exercise. Some may be quite exceptional christians, but at the same time they need exercise.
Ques Would there be some allusion here to Joshua and Caleb — “we which have believed do enter into rest”?
FER Caleb and Joshua did not enter into rest — the point is, faith characterises those who enter into rest. Hebrews goes on the ground of “He that shall come will come, and will not tarry”. So it says “Unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation”. It does not go on the ground of anticipation of death but of the coming of the Lord, and the coming of the Lord will bring in the rest of God. I think the present is a time of exercise, and when people get out of the way of exercise it is an uncommonly bad lookout for them.
C-IB Does not God put exercise in our way?
FER Well, I think some seem to have little of it. If you get people who are callous and indifferent, I think the word of God will not always prove itself a test to them.
Ques What is the special character of the word of God here?
FER It is what the word of God is morally — it is God in the expression of Himself. When God expresses His mind, you may depend upon it it is His word, and it will detect everything in you.
DLH It seems to me to come a little more on that side, than on the side of nourishment and blessing — it is more to expose and discover what is unsuitable.
FER Yes. The point is the word of God brings God to you — “All things are naked and opened unto [p. 233] the eyes of him with whom we have to do”. God brings Himself to you in all that He is morally. In the word of God, God comes out in mercy. Suppose you do not show mercy, you will be detected. If a man does not follow righteousness — God comes out in righteousness, and he will be detected. Suppose a man is bent on self-pleasing, or has some particular object before him — God has not pleased Himself; He has come out, if I may use the expression, in the sacrifice of Himself, and that man would thereby be detected.
ER It is the greatest blessing to be detected.
FER I think so.
ER The point is we are detected to ourselves.
FER No.
Rem Actions expose you to others.
FER Exactly. All that kind of thing tends to a good bit of exercise in the course of the christian. In this is the life of the Spirit in a kind of way. The great object of it all is that you may be in accord with God, “holy and without blame before him in love”. I think it is very wonderful that the word of God should come in in that way. It is so morally perfect that it will detect everything in us.
Ques How far are you referring to the Scriptures when you speak of the word of God?
FER I am referring to the word of God morally. My point is that you want to get into contact with God and all that God is morally. What you have to take account of is that you have the Spirit of truth. You would never get anything whatever detected if you had not the Spirit of truth.
ER In that way it is “quick, and powerful”?
FER Yes, because it is really God in you dividing asunder soul and spirit (that is, what you may call the animal and moral), discerning the thoughts and intents of the heart. One knows how much there is in one, in object and purpose, that [p. 234] is contrary to God. One is very often bent on self-pleasing, and that kind of thing — having some ulterior motive in doing a good thing. You must accept the searching power of the word of God because the great point of it is that you may be morally according to God. You could not conceive of a greater thing being brought about in a man down here.
Ques Would the effect of that be to cast you upon the Priest?
FER Yes, I think so.
DLH Then the priesthood is not connected with all these evil motives but with the helping of a person who is really anxious to get on the right road?
FER Yes, it has regard to infirmities, not to sins.
HCA It is interesting to see that the exposing of motives does not make you lose confidence in God, rather the reverse.
FER Yes. I find in all that I do, though one does not want to speak about oneself, there is a tinge of self-pleasing.
ER How do you get comfort in regard to that?
FER You do not get any comfort in regard to it. I am only thankful that God exposes it.
HCA I suppose you do not get the help of the Priest in regard to infirmity whenever you act yourself by the grace of God on a right line, you are sure to get help in yourself.
Ques Was Peter an example when he said, “Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord”?
FER Yes, he really was exposed by God and the Lord helped him.
WB But an exposure of that kind is always accompanied more or less with a revelation of grace, so that while you are convicted, you are led to confide in the One who has convicted you.
FER [p. 235] There is no expression of God apart from grace. The word of God exposes but it brings in immediately the grace of God. Grace is the essential characteristic of the word of God. “The new man, which according to God is created in truthful righteousness and holiness”. It is a new creation. You could not get that brought about without the exposure of yourself. You could not have put on the new man without having put off the old. The character of the old man has been detected in a man, and he appreciates the new man. That is the truth in Ephesians 4: 22 - 24. What could be more wonderful than that we should be morally according to God — it is inconceivable.
JMcK I suppose it comes out in chapter 3?
FER Yes. You take the ablest men of this world, there cannot be a doubt of their very great natural powers and capabilities, but then if you put things in comparison, the moral thing is very much greater than the natural; and the divine idea is that man should be according to God morally — not simply in faculties.
Ques Is that why the Priest is the Son of God?
FER Yes, I think so. God’s idea about them was that they should be a kingdom of priests, and they had to learn the character of their calling. We learn it now in the Son of God.
DLH Will you say a word about the throne of grace?
FER I think the throne of grace depends upon your having the good of the word. Grace is enthroned in the heart of the christian; if you have not the sense of that, you will hardly come to the throne of grace.
DLH It gives the idea of supremacy of grace.
FER That is the idea — you must have a sense of that. Grace must be enthroned in your heart else you will not come to the throne of grace.
[p. 236] I think it is all consequent upon the place which Christ has with God on our behalf. But then if a man is going to avail himself of all that, he wants grace enthroned in his heart. It is the moral idea, and really indicates that grace is supreme.
Ques Do you mean he is governed by grace?
FER No, but I think in itself, grace is supreme. Grace has carried men through anything and everything.
Ques What about the ‘mercy’ — does it suppose failure?
FER No. I think it indicates more weakness on your part, and you need mercy.
Ques Does the detection you have spoken of bring about the enthroning of grace in your heart?
FER I think the Spirit of God does that. You could not survive the exposure if it was not for the grace. You do not simply get grace but you get mercy, and what I understand by mercy is that everything is taken into consideration with God. I do not think mercy is the enduring kind of thing that grace is. Mercy comes in where people stand in need of mercy. For instance, it says, “That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace” — it does not say “mercy”. I think grace has given us a place in the scheme of divine counsel, and that grace will be seen.
C-IB But you will not be in the condition in which grace is needed.
FER No, but grace will be seen.
HAC I suppose it shows that there is no obstacle to our getting on?
FER No. People want to consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession. I think people would do well to study the tabernacle and all connected with it.