HOW LIVING CONDITIONS ARE PROMOTED
HOW LIVING CONDITIONS ARE PROMOTED
JT This scripture helps as to moral power, something we shall all, no doubt, admit we are greatly in need of. They sent officers to take Him; they had official power to arrest Him, but no moral power. The officers report that “Never man spake like this man”. It occurred to me that it would help us to see how the Lord rises morally above the opposing and conflicting circumstances in which He was, so that the opposition is baffled and rendered impotent. The chapter shows that whilst the Lord refused to go up to the feast officially, He nevertheless went up; and, being there unofficially, He is marked by superiority to all that is there. The chapter, too, seems to me to present a picture of our own time, in which there are those who are official, whose time is always ready, and there is also division of thought as to Christ: “So there was a division among the people because of him”. Some think this, and some that; amongst other things they were puzzled that, not having learned, He knew letters. There is a state of uncertainty and confusion, and, amid all this, direct opposition which showed itself in sending officers to take Him. We see how the Lord shines out in these circumstances, and triumphs, as we may say, on moral grounds; then He brings out how a believer may do the same. The secret of all this for us is the presence of the Spirit from Christ in heaven — from Jesus glorified. “This spake he of the Spirit”. It is a remarkable passage in that way. The Lord is speaking of the Spirit in believers.
JMcM It is said by Him in this chapter, “[p. 197] He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory”.
JT Just so. The Lord was here as sent, and as He heard, He spoke.
JMcM The Spirit always glorifies Christ.
JW Was the moral power which was lacking in the feast found in Him?
JT Yes; there was no moral power attached to it — no satisfaction.
HES Is your thought, then, that this chapter presents the contrast between what is official and what is moral?
JT That is what I was thinking. The manner in which the Holy Spirit is brought in here is very striking, because the Lord is speaking about Him as in the believer, not exactly as in chapter 14 — another Comforter, but as in the believer. Another thing to be noted is, He is speaking in reference to the Scriptures — “as the scripture hath said”. This would lead to diligent inquiry, because He does not give chapter and verse, nor even the book. It is a wholesome reminder of the importance of reading Scripture. It is a very striking fact that John brings in the Scriptures in view of the last times; he emphasises in a most striking way the importance of the Scriptures; as it says in chapter 2:22, “When therefore he was risen from the dead ... they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said”. Many of us, I fear, are very deficient in regard to Scripture; unless we read it we cannot believe it, and, again, we are cast on the Lord as to understanding. Reading in itself is of little use; Philip said to the eunuch, “Understandest thou what thou readest?” (Acts 8:30).
FWB Why do you think John gives such a large place to the Scriptures?
JT I think it is with a view to meeting moral conditions. The enemy has been endeavouring to discredit the Scriptures, if not to dispose of them entirely,
[p. 198] and John brings them in in his own way. He builds the thought of the importance of the Scriptures into their souls as he proceeds.
JB There is no moral power in the believer apart from the indwelling of a divine Person, is there?
JT I think the work of God in John tells us so in a moral way from the beginning. Nicodemus evidences the work in the believer, in that he comes to Jesus by night and says, “We know that thou art a teacher come from God” (John 3:2). John has a way of giving his thoughts informally. Here is a man who knows something. It is a very important thought in the beginning of a Christian’s career, that he knows something; and what Nicodemus knew he knew on moral grounds; he is enabled to discern where God is.
ELM I suppose faith would not lean upon the official recognition of what the Lord is saying. I was thinking of the inquiry in verse 48, “Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on him?” If there is faith, we would not lean upon an official recognition.
JT No. And what we find here is that the work of God is always true; we may rely upon it. Nicodemus had shown that the work of God was in him, and he is the only one whose voice is lifted up in this chapter according to God. He makes an undeniable remark: “Doth our law judge any man before it hear him, and know what he doeth?” That is the one voice lifted up in the midst of this confusion — a very feeble voice, indeed, for Nicodemus was one of them, like many a Christian at the present time.
ETS What do you mean by “one of them”?
JT One of the councillors; he was a member of the Jewish Council.
ETS What do you mean by saying ‘like many a Christian at the present time’?
JT A Christian who is in the council — it may be in the town council, or Parliament, or any such [p. 199] place.
ET Would you indicate something that would help us to understand verse 38, “Out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water”?
JT Well, I think the thought is that a Christian becomes influential for good. The idea of rivers in Scripture generally is influence for good. The first mention of a river is in Genesis 2, and its influence was for good; it went out to water the garden, and from thence it was parted and became four main streams, so that the Lord alludes here in a general way to the meaning of rivers. That thought should appear pre-eminently in those who believe on Christ.
AG Would that be the evidence of moral power, “Out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water”?
JT Yes, I think that is the thing. The inward parts are those in which the lower affections are developed. Man became a living soul, in contra-distinction to all other creatures, by the breath of God. He received his life from God.
ET Would you say that there is the thought in it of another Man, who was always before God, and to whom Scripture is ever pointing from the very beginning? It is out of your believing on that Man that rivers of living water flow.
JT One can understand that a very great change must come about in man, if living water is to flow out of him, considering that his affections had become corrupt; so that it could only be by receiving the Spirit as from Jesus glorified.
JMcM Is this dependent upon apprehending Him where He is gone? Faith would lay hold of that.
JT I think that what has been suggested that another Man has come in with the elements of cleansing is most important. John tells us elsewhere that He came by water and blood; the water, I think, deals with the inner part of man, as the blood disposes of his guilt and meets his conscience. In the gospel the blood comes first, in the epistle the water comes [p. 200] first; it is to cleanse man inwardly, so that he may be a suitable vessel. The woman in chapter 4 may be taken as a representative of corruption, and yet the Lord says to her, “The water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life”; that implies that there must be cleansing. I think Proverbs 5:15,16, helps us as to this scripture: “Drink waters out of thine own cistern, and running waters out of thine own well. Let thy fountains be dispersed abroad, and rivers of waters in the streets”. There I think you have something that corresponds with chapter 4. You have your own fountain to drink out of, and then it is poured forth; that corresponds with chapter 7.
AG Is this all consequent upon our being the subjects of a divine work?
JT The early chapters in John are constructive. Chapter 2 shows that there is no confidence at all to be placed in a faith in that which is external, but chapter 3 shows a man judging of things on moral grounds. He comes to Jesus by night. Then you have the uplifted Son of man, which has direct reference to Numbers 21, and Numbers 21 refers to Genesis 3. It is a dealing with the source of evil in the uplifted Son of man. That the believer understands, so that a way is made for the living water.
Ques Would you say that in chapter 2 the water comes down, in chapter 4 the water comes up, and in chapter 7 the water flows out?
JT Yes, that is right.
WSS You were referring to the rivers in Genesis. They were to flow out universally in blessing, I take it. Would you say that, in John 7, God’s thought is thus secured?
JT Yes. Jesus is the source; but we read, “the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because that Jesus was not yet glorified”. We have the rivers flowing out from Jesus through the believer, as [p. 201] having received the Spirit. The believer in John is regarded as a trustworthy vessel, not again to be corrupted.
Ques Are the vessels purified in John?
JT I think chapter 3 deals with the state in which they were — with the source, hence it is dealt with thoroughly in the uplifted Son of man, so that the woman in chapter 4 supposes the light of the previous chapter. Then you have the source of evil and then the source of all good: “God so loved the world”. The Spirit is the testimony to that here — to what is in the heart of God; so that we have the source of evil dealt with effectively, and then the source of good opened up, so that all that is of God flows out. You can then understand how a corrupt woman can become a vessel. She left her waterpot she was to be the vessel — that is the idea. The believer is to be a vessel. She “went her way into the city and saith to the men, Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did”. She is a vessel for the communication of light.
HES Is your thought that John always deals with things from the source, and if the source is right, the outflow will be right?
JT That is how it works, I think. So now you have the vessel typically in the woman; she is true to the light. She says, too, “Come, see a man”. That is another principle with John; you “come and see”. By coming, the men of the city discovered that He was the Saviour of the world. That vessel is set up, too, in quickening; “The Son quickeneth whom he will” (chapter 5:21); the person is made to live; he is a living vessel; then chapter 6 is to show how we are to be sustained here by the principle of the Son of man coming down, because the principle with God is coming down. He came down and died, gave His flesh for the life of the world. Thus the vessel is sustained with suitable food, hence in chapter 7 [p. 202] we have moral power. It is a hint as to how all the difficulties arising among the saints are to be met; it is a question of moral power, not of official power. We cannot rely on the official; it is what is moral that prevails.
Ques Was there not moral power evident in the life of John?
JT You see it working out in him.
JC What is the thought of Jesus being glorified?
JT I think it is that a Man glorified God on earth, so that He received glory in heaven in return.
Ques Were you suggesting that there should be moral and spiritual conditions found in the saints that correspond with what was here in Jesus?
JT That is exactly the position today; what power have you got if evil arises in a meeting; how are you going to meet it? It is not a question of a man’s age, but of what power he has acquired.
AEC And would you lay emphasis on the “he that seeketh his glory that sent him” in connection with this moral power?
JT I would indeed.
FWB It is remarkable that in John believing is not in the past tense, that you have believed, but you do believe — “believeth”.
JT Yes, it is the kind of person. They would make little of Christ, but He points out that even a believer in Him would be greater than the feast of tabernacles.
JMcM Is it in Him as the Son? John does not speak of Him as the Lord Jesus Christ (it is the same Person), but in that way.
JT When the Jews said to Him, Who art thou, Jesus said to them, “Altogether that which I also say unto you” (John 8:25). It is entirely a question of moral power here.
Rem The Lord says, “Whither I go, ye cannot come” (chapter 8:21). Is not that so today? It was impossible [p. 203] to go where He is in the position these people were. What is official has no life and power to reach it.
JT Just so.
JHT Would that moral power have already been presented in the Old Testament?
JT Yes; quite.
HES Do we get experience of God on these lines?
JT Yes, that is the thing. The Lord was what He said. What you see here is that every man went to his own home; this was how matters stood. But there was one Man who did not go to any home on earth, He went to the mount of Olives. We see how one Man in the crisis can be effective by maintaining a link with heaven; that is what the mount of Olives stands for. And early in the morning He comes again into the temple. Then we have the working out of the exercises of this chapter in the next. The Lord comes in and teaches; “All the people came to him; and he sat down and taught them”. What appeals to me is that in the midst of this confusion the people of God are to be taught, and that not according to the education of a university, but with thoughts that are like the Teacher Himself. What is needed is one coming from the mount of Olives, and that suggests a heavenly Teacher; the Holy Spirit is the prominent feature. The secret is that we have access to heaven by the Spirit.
HES Then is your thought that John maintains the link with heaven by the Spirit?
JT I think the mount of Olives here is to carry on the thought of the Spirit. Now the Lord comes in, into the midst of all the confusion, and you have teaching from heaven.
ETS Would you say that the fact that we have received the Spirit does not necessarily imply that there will be “rivers of living water”?
JT It is the characteristic believer here — those [p. 204] who are marked by faith in Christ in a characteristic way are the vessels out of whom the rivers flow.
ETS When it is said, “This spake he of the Spirit”, is that the thing worked out in the believer as it comes out in moral power?
JT That is what I understood — “the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive”. I think we should note the word ‘receive’. It is my reception here, not exactly those to whom He is given.
CC Do the activities of the Spirit in us depend on our knowing the Lord in the place where He is glorified?
JT I think so. That is what the mount of Olives suggests. The Holy Spirit, though here, operates on the basis of our dependence on God and prayer.
ELM Do we not see the thought you suggested of the link with heaven being maintained unbroken, in the blessed Lord? At the very end, He lifted up His eyes to heaven, and would not that be the secret of moral power with us?
JT I think so. It is a wonderful thing that there is a living link with heaven.
JP Do you think there is any connection with the last chapter of Zechariah? The mount of Olives is spoken of there, and the living water.
JT Yes. To understand this I would read all the scriptures that speak of rivers in a good sense. Ezekiel speaks of water issuing from the house, from underneath the altar.
JP There was healing for the salt sea, was there not, in Ezekiel?
JT Quite.
WSS Is your thought that the flowing of a river is irresistible?
JT Yes. What can you do with a river? It is a power. The source of all good is the heart of God ([p. 205] chapter 3), and the source of all evil is met in the death of Christ; now God is free to let His heart come out. Chapter 7 is to show how believers may become vessels for what is in the heart of God.
WSS I thought in that way, referring again to Genesis, that, whatever we may see around us officially at the present moment, we see that God’s purposes of blessing are being secured.
JT Yes, that is what John brings out. Think of what one believer may be!
Ques How would you connect that with the beginning of Revelation 22 — with the river of water of life clear as crystal?
JT I think it is the same idea; the clearness of it is spoken of, and stands over against the streams of this world, which are corrupt. Governments are maintained by manipulation; there is darkness, whereas in the throne of God everything is open; there is nothing to disturb it at all. The water is clear, bright as crystal, and on every side of the river, on this side and on that side, is the tree of life.
Ques Is your thought that if there is moral power in the Spirit, we shall not only be superior to opposition, as in chapter 7, but able to teach as in chapter 8?
JT Yes. Now you have the key, not only for heavenly influence, but for positive teaching; He sat down, and taught them in the temple.
RW Is that the moral result of retirement from the people?
JT He is isolated by the fact that every man goes unto his own home.
Rem That teaching stands out in very sharp contrast to the confused thoughts to which you have already drawn attention.
JT Yes. In Ecclesiastes 12:11 the preacher sought out acceptable words; “The words of the wise are as goads, and the collections of them as nails fastened in”. Something to carry both the [p. 206] conscience and mind is wanted. All ministry should be authoritative. John is concerned about a man who knows; “We speak that we do know”, the Lord says, “and testify that we have seen” (John 3:11).
HES Do I understand that you are suggesting that what is presented in the Lord should be an exercise in regard of ourselves? The Lord taught as One who had authority.
JT That is the thing — to know what you are speaking about. In chapter 8 they bring to Him a woman taken in adultery; well, what is He going to do now? They say, we are going to baffle Him. They could baffle a man who was ignorant, but not one who knows. The Lord stoops down, and writes on the ground, then He lifts up Himself. “He that is without sin among you”, He says, “let him first cast a stone at her”. What had they got to show? Nothing is a greater work than to get people’s consciences active against themselves. They went out one by one.
Ques What does writing suggest?
JT I think the first writing would suggest the tables of the covenant, the second would be His own death. The accusers need not have gone out, they might have stayed, for all the grace of heaven was there, but they did not stay; being convicted, they went out one by one. The second writing involved the new covenant — forgiveness, and the writing in the heart. The multitude are not affected at all, but there are a few here and there who are consciously affected for God.
HES Would it be right to say that John suggests to us that it is rather a question of quality than of quantity?
JT That is true; he is concerned about quality.