EDUCATION FOR EFFECTIVE TESTIMONY (1)
[p. 12] EDUCATION FOR EFFECTIVE TESTIMONY (1)
JT The Lord may help us to see from these scriptures the initial features of the dispensation.
One’s thought is not to call attention to what is merely historical, but to show that the initial features were intended to run right through. What may be noted at the outset is the fall of one man, and the exaltation of another, that is, Christianity is displacement. There is the definite fall of what had a place, and then in chapter 2 the exaltation of another.
We read: “And Ahaziah fell down through a lattice in his upper chamber that was in Samaria, and was sick: and he sent messengers, and said unto them, Go, inquire of Baal-zebub the god of Ekron whether I shall recover of this disease”.
Then we have in chapter 2, “And it came to pass, when the Lord would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal, etc”.
AHC Do you take Elijah as being a type of Christ?
JT Yes. One who was tested here. Elijah had come out suddenly unannounced, to assert the rights of God, and he did assert them, God owning him in a most striking way, and then follows a comparatively long period of patience. Ahab and Jezebel represented a state of things that called for immediate judgment. Yet there is long patience, but Ahaziah, notwithstanding all the patience and consideration shown to his father, is wholly apostate. He is turned to Baal-zebub, and hence the fall. He fell, whereas Elijah represents the Lord Jesus, or the great principle of what God approves. We may regard him as representing the Lord personally, in whom there was [p. 13] that which was absolutely for the approval and pleasure of God. I think Elijah also represents what God approves right through.
JAB Then Ahaziah illustrates a condition of unbelief?
JT I think he does; a peculiar kind of unbelief. In the presence of demonstrated sin in his parents, and of all the long patience with them, he was doubly guilty. It is said of him in 1 Kings 22:52, “And he did evil in the sight of the Lord, and walked in the way of his father, and in the way of his mother, and in the way of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, who made Israel to sin: for he served Baal, and worshipped him, and provoked to anger the Lord God of Israel, according to all that his father had done”, so that the arraignment is convicting. He is convicted. Before the judgment of God there is conviction.
WJY Do you suggest that the exaltation of Elijah implies that the man who came before him had to go?
JT I do.
JAB Is not that principle of unbelief existent in Christendom today?
JT That is what I wanted to reach, and the importance of conviction. It is God’s way to convict before He judges, so that the Lord said that when the Spirit was come He would bring demonstration into the world of sin, and of righteousness and of judgment. “Of sin, because they believe not on me; of righteousness, because I go to my Father ... of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged” (John 16:9 - 11). There was to be in this world a means of conviction. The Lord had in principle convicted this world, but the presence of the Spirit would be that in a subjective way. There would be a demonstration in this world, an obvious evidence of the guilt of it, so that its removal in due course is justifiable — “That he might be justified”, as it says.
RGD Would you say that Ahaziah resisted the conviction of the Spirit when he sent a company to apprehend Elijah on the hill?
JT That is right. He was resisting the testimony of Elijah.
GHMcK Could you tell us who Ahaziah stands for today?
JT The principle covers any person or power having an official place.
JAB Exalting itself, and yet in unbelief?
JT Yes.
JAB Do we all have to come to a judgment as to that, before there is positive movement in the power of the Spirit?
JT I think so. I think that in coming to that, he that nameth the name of the Lord would withdraw from iniquity. In naming the name of the Lord you are withdrawing from something that God must remove, and will remove. You have come to a judgment about it; that is, our position is established on moral grounds.
WJY To use your expression, would you say that this conviction is one of the initial features of the day in which we live?
JT That is what I hope to come to, that every Christian today should come to this conviction. He should have an estimate or judgment of what there is here that is outwardly in relation to God.
JAB So our souls would recognise the breakdown, and the ruin?
JT Yes, and concurrently with the conviction to which you come, there will be governmental action on the part of God. Great Babylon, for instance, is fallen. That was a governmental action on the part of God, in order to make way for what we are enjoying now, but there was a conviction as to it — conviction had come in — the thing was convicted. The [p. 15] address to Thyatira shows that Jezebel was exposed, what she was doing was exposed. A way is made for the remnant, to whom the Lord addresses Himself, “To you I say, the rest who are in Thyatira” (Revelation 2:24), and what is in view is exaltation.
RGD Would you say in that sense that great Babylon is judged typically in Ahaziah?
JT That is the principle of it. The governmental action of God has brought her down, and she has become a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. She is a cage.
GHMcK Would you say that is the case now, morally?
JT That is what exists, exactly.
ALM Where does the conviction take place?
JT In the people of God. The point is that there is such a thing as conviction. It does not appear that Ahaziah was in any way convicted, but the conviction is here. The evidence is against him.
WJY Do you think that it is fundamental for our souls to enter into it?
JT I do not see how we can be representative in any way now, save as in that conviction. What comes to light in 2 Timothy is that we have got a seal, which I apprehend signifies the power of representation.
JAB Does the third captain that presents himself before Elijah represent a man who has got some light as to what God is doing?
JT I think that is important to notice, showing that grace was available where there was self-judgment. No doubt, in the history of the assembly this very feature has come out where the mind of God has been seized in any measure, even though one is in the employ, or officially identified with, the man who is fallen; grace is operative, and it saves. The Reformation, as we call it, in Christendom, may illustrate this. Grace was operative.
[p. 16] JAB So that mercy really shines through God’s government?
JT That is it, I think. It is most important to see that the government of God acts concurrently with His operations in His people, so that the way is made for us. We can reckon on that.
JNB Then we can take notice of every public action of God of that character?
JT Yes. And you pray for those in authority, because God uses them, whether they may be aware of it or not. God uses them.
WJY Might we not be a good deal separated from all that is official around us, and yet be very weak in the conviction you are speaking of?
JT That is what I thought. You get at something which establishes a great moral foundation when you have the seal, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord withdraw from iniquity”. Then the other side is, “The Lord knows those that are his” (2 Timothy 2:19).
WJY So that, in coming to a judgment and withdrawing, you get a sense of the Lord; and His power supports you.
JT Yes, and also that He will in due time deal with that from which you have had to withdraw, because if you have to withdraw it means that God has to deal with it, otherwise you would not withdraw from it.
RGD Is that illustrated in Moses when he says, “Get ye up”?
JT Just so. God was going to destroy them. As withdrawn, I think we may hope to be in some sense representative, because the seal involves representation. That is, you are representative on moral grounds.
JNB Of what are we representative?
JT Of God, in those altered conditions.
JAB So, as our brother suggests, the two sides [p. 17] would be withdrawing from evil, marked by separation, and that which is positive, marking the people who have come to that judgment.
JT Quite. There is amongst them, or in each of them, the conviction of this world as it stands, especially as to what pretends or professes to represent the Lord.
RGD Would you say that we are in the midst of that which is withstanding the testimony all the time?
JT That which claims to represent the Lord is really the opposing element now.
GAvS Would you say that there is a great deal of acquiescence without conviction among God’s people; that they acquiesce in the thought of God’s judgment of things without having really received the conviction of the Spirit, and until there is that conviction wrought in the souls of the people of God there is no room left for God to come in governmentally?
JT That is right. Hence, one who is really convicted of the conditions around keeps clear of them. He holds himself free of them, and thus he has got moral power. He knows that God’s people are in these things, and he knows that the Lord knows them, too. But his power of representation lies in his rigid separation.
AHC Like Abraham and Lot?
JT Quite. Lot had no power, whereas Abraham had.
TRY Would you say that conviction is continuous?
JT It has to be maintained. Abraham, it says, dwelt by the oaks of Mamre. That was where he dwelt. Lot was captured. Abraham was available to rescue his brother, but, on returning after the rescue, he steadily refused to take anything from the king of Sodom.
JSB Has not conviction always to do with the conscience? If so, where does the heart come [p. 18] in?
JT The heart is the seat of the higher affections, and it leads you to seek after your brother. It was the heart that was active in Abraham’s case, and he undertook, and was in readiness, to rescue his brother. He had three hundred and eighteen trained servants in his house, and he took his life in his hands with these men, and pursued the enemy to Damascus, a long way from Hebron, and rescued his brother.
ALM Does Rahab suggest the kind of spirit you are thinking of?
JT Yes. She had the flax spread out on her roof. It is the same thing. It is the principle of purity, so that it is, “Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness” (2 Timothy 2:22). Because in the pursuit of righteousness, as in the position of judgment of the official systems around, one has moral power, and, in some sense, there is a representation of God in these days.
GHMcK With regard to this question of conviction, Ahaziah had a fall, but he did not immediately die.
JT I think that is how matters stand today. Everything is put off. The government of God is going on, but the final act of judgment is yet future.
GHMcK Ahaziah was suffering from the fall; he knew something was wrong.
JT I do not think that Babylon has taken any notice. No doubt, they are well aware of their changed circumstances, and they are making every effort to recover lost ground, but they cannot. The fall is irretrievable.
JAB Does Elisha represent soul movement that follows conviction?
JT I think he understands what is imminent. He understands that the Lord is about to take up Elijah. That is, he is in the full light of the one who is exalted. The great thing is the principle of exaltation, what is going up. With everything in the world [p. 19] now the trend is down, no matter how you look at it, down, down! Whereas the testimony of God is up. That is the principle. That is how matters stand now. I believe the Lord would encourage us on these lines to see that the principle is elevation or exaltation. We are waiting for it, and the expectation should be reflected.
AHC In Revelation 4, it says, “Come up hither”. Is that the viewpoint we should have?
JT I think so. John had gone through the experience recorded in the earlier chapters, and now it is “Come up”.
WJY Does that which you have before you as to exaltation come out fully in 1 Corinthians 15, that without the understanding of the resurrection of Christ, and the raising up of Christ, everything was gone in Christianity?
JT They were denying the resurrection. Here the sons of the prophets would deny the ascension. That was the great effort of Satan through them.
ESW Do the sons of the prophets in any way represent Christendom today?
JT Yes, I think they do. They represent those who have inherited light. It is not light that has been reached by one’s own experience or exercises, it has come down. It is a common heritage, but that does not help. It may be turned into the most insidious opposition. You see, they knew about the exaltation of Elijah, but then they did not follow him, and, finally, when it came to the Jordan, they were fifty men strong. There is a worldly touch with that; they were in keeping with the principles of Ahaziah, and these fifty men are employed to set aside, if possible, the great truth of the ascension of Christ. It shows that we may be doctrinally right — many may have the doctrine of the coming of the Lord and the rapture — yet really not believe it [p. 20] in heart.
ALM Whatever they knew did not constitute them followers of Elijah.
JT No. Moreover, Elisha knew better. There are those who make much of these things — the coming of the Lord and other truths — but there are those who know better. “I also know it: be silent!” He had it first-hand.
RMY He knew the moral reason for it.
JT Quite.
ALM They did not believe it, or else they would not have sent the men to look for Elijah afterwards.
JT No, they did not. So I think we are warned of the danger of holding things merely as crystallised doctrine.
JAB And yet that place of inherited light is a place of privilege in a sense, is it not? Because, later on in the book, we find certain movement and exercises, movement in position. To have a place of light is a privilege.
JT Surely. They come out later, the sons of the prophets. Some of them came into accord with Elisha, but I think these fifty represent the worldly features of those who profess to hold the fundamental principles, as a creed, as a doctrine, without really believing them, without being characterised by them.
WJY Would it suggest what is Laodicean?
JT I think it contributed very largely to Laodicea, because Laodicea is just what is around us today. It is enriched by borrowed things. What comes out later in the sons of the prophets is that they borrowed. One of the wives was in debt, and another had borrowed a hatchet. They live on borrowed things. So that Laodicea is enriched by what she has taken over, borrowed from others. There are seminaries now in which the writings of those whom the Lord has used are recognised text-books; but that only adorns the professing system.
AHC [p. 21] They get light by it, but not life.
JT They get light, but it is not their own, not having obtained it through the ordered way, that is, through Jordan. You have to go through Jordan for permanent light from God. Christ had to go through Jordan for it, and He is not going to clothe the flesh with the thing that He had to die for. He had to die in order that the light should be available. You have got to follow Elijah like Elisha. You see, these men did not deny the Spirit, they recognised that the Spirit of Elijah was on Elisha. They did not deny the Spirit, but then they denied what gives the lustre and power to Christianity, that is, the ascension of Christ. They would nullify that.
WJY Are we not in this day peculiarly liable to that line of things?
JT I think the word is to go through Jordan particularly. Elisha followed Elijah from Gilgal to Bethel, from Bethel to Jericho, and from Jericho to Jordan. When they come to Jordan there are fifty that stand opposite. The same thing is to be seen now. Elisha is the model to be followed: “As the Lord liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee”. It is the tenacity of faith and appreciation of what one knows to be there, that follows all the way.
JAB The principle of committal is seen in Ruth, is it not?
JT Just so. She would go all the way, even to death, with Naomi.
RGD Where does baptism come in there?
JT Well, I think our baptism enters into it, only it is a question of being true to it. That is really Colossian ground, that we are buried with Him and risen with Him. You are attached to Christ in your baptism; it is not a mere ordinance to you.
PDS When would you say Elisha was true to [p. 22] his baptism?
JT When Elijah cast his mantle on him he slew the oxen, and cooked them on the ploughing implements, and gave them to the people. He then followed Elijah, and ministered to him. That is to say, he had full respect for the great vessel that God was then using. He ministered to him, and so, later, he poured water on his hands. That is to say, he was entirely with the Lord. It is the spirit of a Christian who is entirely with the Lord.
JAB Do these four places that Elisha touched in the company of Elijah suggest necessary exercises before he comes to the light of the ascension of Christ?
JT I think so. They doubtless represent different features of the testimony of God. Each one of them represents some feature of the testimony, and we have to go that way if we are to be in the testimony, because it is a question, not only of being saved, but of being in the testimony, which involves being representative of Christ here. So that we begin with Gilgal. Gilgal, as we know, would be the judgment of the flesh. Really, it is the putting off of the body of the flesh, in circumcision, so that we have no confidence in the flesh.
JAB I have to learn that I cannot be in the testimony in any power belonging to flesh and blood.
JT That is the thing to come to; you begin with that. Gilgal means that I have no confidence in flesh. The most cultivated, the most learned flesh, is of no account at all now. That is what you have to begin with if you are to be in the testimony. And Elisha had the great advantage of being in these positions in the company of Elijah, and clung to him, so that, as he reached Bethel, he would be made conscious of Elijah’s appreciation of that place. Think of how the Lord would appreciate the things of God as He was in the temple, for instance. If you were with Him you would have a sense of how [p. 23] He regarded the temple of God. As He says, “My Father’s house”.
AHC That would be Bethel, would it?
JT Quite. So that it is a great thing to apprehend Christ in any of these positions. He gives you a sense of what these positions are, and you get consciously into these things.
ALM Does the journey of Elisha with Elijah suggest our entering sympathetically into the pathway of the Lord, and His sufferings, and the object of His death?
JT I think that is it. As you accompany Him, I think you come into the consciousness of these things. How blessed to be in the company of the Lord in all these positions, and to realise in your soul through His influence what they really mean.
JNB What does Jericho stand for?
JT I think it is the testimony of the power of God in overthrowing the world. He has power to deal with the world system. The Lord said that if they had faith they would say to this mountain, “Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done” (Matthew 21:21). That is to say the Jewish system, representing the world system, would be removed by the faith of the disciples.
TRY What do we learn from the double passage of the Jordan by Elisha?
JT It is our death with Christ. That is, you are going through it now in faith by the Spirit. The first, I think, is that you go through it with Him; the second, that you go through it in His power by yourself. That is a question of the power you have in your soul.
JNB In the first place it was his own experience, and the second time it was his coming back to the land for service.
JT I think that he is coming into it now in the power that he had in himself. He went over first [p. 24] in the company of Elijah, now he smites the river himself.
JAB I suppose the test of the sons of the prophets, as applied to ourselves, is that we might get light as to these things, and be content with that, and not really know what it is to reach the Lord in the power of His glory, so that there is that which is positive marking us.
JT That is the thing, to get into the consciousness of what these things really mean. Has one ever been conscious that the flesh, however cultured or educated, is of no value in itself in the things of God?
GAvS I suppose the absence of that really constitutes you one of the sons of the prophets, does it not? Really what characterised the sons of the prophets was that there was very little soul exercise very little conviction wrought in their hearts. The consequence was that they took up things merely in their minds, without having passed through those soul exercises, which involved the appropriation of the real thing in their souls. Is not that the case?
JT Quite. And then when we come to Bethel, it is a question of consciousness. One wants to be conscious of the house of God, what it is to be where God is. How Elijah would impart to Elisha the sense of that. With Jacob, in the first mention of the house we have in Scripture, there is the recognition of the presence of God in it. Although He was above the ladder, nevertheless, He was standing there in relation to His house, and the second mention shows that God had actually come down and stood in a certain position, and spoken to Jacob, so that Jacob rears up the altar in the place where God had stood. He had the consciousness of being in the house of God, and in it to the pleasure of God, because the drink offering is put on the pillar. If we are in the consciousness of that, we want every saint upon earth to be in it. It is worth being there, and it gives us [p. 25] immense power in dealing with souls, to be conscious of such a place as that.
ALM Would you say it is the great end to which God is moving, to have everything for His own pleasure? Is that the thought that is suggested to us in the house of God?
JT I think so. We would love to get the ear of every one of the Lord’s people, and tell him that there is such a place. It is not mere doctrine, we have been there in the company of Elijah, and we speak of such a place and the way to it. Then in regard to Jericho, I suppose one would be made conscious of the power of God to overthrow it. What seems insuperable opposition may be easily disposed of if we understand the power of God.
RGD Bethel is inside, I suppose, and Jericho outside.
JAB So that to reach Jericho is really the end of that which began with conviction. We find that God’s power is evident against everything that is unreal, everything that Satan uses to hinder that which is living.
JT Philadelphia has a little of that. “Thou hast a little power” (Revelation 3:8), that is the thing is there, not simply the light of the power of God.
AHC I suppose we see how God works in regard to Jericho, that faith acts, there is nothing done by man in regard to the fall of Jericho.
JT It is the power of God, so that the ministry at Ephesus was the word of the Lord. In the ministry at Corinth, it was the word of God. Because the point at Corinth is to bring in the mind of God, setting up the tabernacle, but the point at Ephesus is the overthrow, everything is down at Ephesus. Nothing can stand against the testimony of Paul. It is the word of the Lord, what it is to be strong in the Lord and the power of His might. At Corinth it is the word of God, because it is the unfolding of the [p. 26] mind of God.
ALM In opposition to idolatry.
JT You have, therefore, order emphasised at Corinth, but in Ephesus it is the word of the Lord; and then the love and counsels of God, and so forth. The world’s power is disposed of by faith.
WJY Would you say something about the double portion of the spirit?
JT Well, I think it indicates the character of the dispensation. That is, the first-born’s portion, which distinguishes our dispensation from all others. It is the very best that there is; what we may call adequate testimony here through the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, being here. Hence, there is plenty, abundance. No one can pursue these chapters, concerning the ministry of Elisha, without being profoundly impressed with the power that there was in one man, the power of God in grace. It is a question of the ministry of grace. This chapter is to show the way of it, the secret of it, how we may be in the possession of all the wealth of heaven.
WJY The spirit of the Man who has gone up.
AHC Is that why the Lord says, “I have a baptism to be baptised with” (Luke 12:50)? He could not give the Spirit to others until He had gone up.
JT The Spirit was not yet, because Jesus was not yet glorified, so that, “If thou see me when I am taken”, is a question of the mind in that way being elevated. Christianity is something come down from an ascended Man. It belongs to heaven, as the sheet in Acts 10 indicates, and comes down and goes up. So that, it is the testimony at the present time against the trend of this world, which is down. Governments are falling, all institutions are falling, however ancient. The most ancient one is about to fall entirely and be destroyed.
RGD Would you say that the double portion involves sonship?
JT [p. 27] It is the portion of the first-born; it refers to the Spirit as we have it.
JAB Why is it spoken of as a hard thing?
JT I suppose it points to what it cost to establish this dispensation.
ALM He could not have asked for a more wonderful or blessed thing.
JT No. God values our appreciation of what has been made available.
JAB Does it suggest the sufferings of Christ and the glory that should follow?
JT I think so.
PDS The Lord says, “Whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son” (John 14:13).
JT I think that passage emphasises how God appreciates our desires. “How much rather shall the Father who is of heaven give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him” (Luke 11:13). God values the desire, we see the need and we ask. It is, therefore, to those who ask. It seems to me that Elisha was fully seized with what was needed. He knew it was available, and went in for it fully.
JNB Does not the acceptance of the Spirit involve displacement, and that is rather hard for most of us?
JT I do not think that is what it meant there. It involves so much; it is no light matter that the Holy Spirit is here upon earth. We think of it now and speak of it lightly sometimes. Think of what was involved, before it could be possible.
WJY Is there not a tendency for us to underestimate the presence of the Spirit here?
JT Now, that is the point. Think of the cost — the cost to God, and to Christ, ere it were possible.
GHMcK It suggests the smitten rock. The rock had to be smitten before the water could come out.
JT That is very good. The rock had to be smitten.
WJY “Greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father” (John 14:12) suggests what is involved in the Spirit being here.
JT It is a greater day in that sense than even the day in which the Lord was here, but we ought to take to heart what is involved, and what it has cost.
JAB How does the testimony operate? Is it suggested in the incidents that follow?
JT I think so. Elisha comes to Jericho, so that, instead of judgment in Jericho there is grace. That is our attitude still. We do not want anything else than that. We know the power that there is to overthrow the world, but instead of that, it is the new cruse, and the salt, so that the waters are healed. Grace flows out.
AJL What is involved in the garment? Elijah’s garment fell from him.
JT I think that we give up all that we have got ourselves, whatever it may be that is not effective. The garment of Elijah is effective; it stands for the measure. There is a standard of service, which must never be lowered, so that it is the garment of Elijah that he takes up. We do not want to take up anything else. If we cannot fill that mantle, then we pray and seek to make room for the Spirit in us. That was the sign to Elisha at the beginning; he cast that mantle on him. It was a sign to him that that was the principle of service. Elisha would just be concerned as to how he could fill that mantle. So the presence of the Holy Spirit here is sufficient to enable us to correspond with Christ. It is, therefore, incumbent upon us to rend our own garments, whatever they may be. They have to be discarded. I think that Colossians is the discarding of the garments, but Ephesians is the complete putting on.
JAB Do the children manifest the spirit of apostasy which was seen in Ahaziah, and therefore nothing could remain for that spirit but [p. 29] judgment?
JT I think that is right. They could be regarded as another generation descending from the sons of the prophets. We see how mere light without heart degenerates into open opposition. It is a generation now, there were forty-two destroyed. What do you say?
JAB I thought that they showed the continuity of the spirit of opposition and unbelief. It had been in the parents, and finds full expression in the children, and could only go on to judgment.
JT It is no longer veneered in the children. Children are just what they are, you know; here, perverse.
ALM I think it could not be little children. It is not exactly an infantile condition, it is the outcome of the generation.
JT Their will is active, they are old enough to have wills. I think it refers to a generation with these characteristics, they are opposed to the testimony of the ascension. “Go up, thou bald head”. It was ridicule, the worst kind of opposition. It is well to see as to inherited light that in itself it does not save us from the keenest opposition, as to what may be pre-eminent for the moment, as the ascension here.
JST It seems such a serious thing that that should have been at Bethel.
JT But then what comes out is that, notwithstanding this opposition, Elisha goes on his way. “And he went from thence to mount Carmel, and from thence he returned to Samaria”. He is not deterred by the opposition. He goes on; he goes to mount Carmel, which is, I suppose, an additional feature, the place of pleasure, spiritual elevation, and then he goes down to where the opposition was, as you might say, set up officially — Samaria, where the power of evil was recognised officially.