INDIANAPOLIS DECEMBER 1925, READING (4)
INDIANAPOLIS DECEMBER [p. 293] 1925, READING (4)
JT It helps in the understanding of this epistle to read it in relation to the facts recorded in the Acts. That is so, of course, in regard to other epistles, but in none is it so important as in this one, I think.
AFM Do you refer to particular chapters in the Acts?
JT Yes, chapters 19 and 20, particularly chapter 20, because it brings out the result of the testimony in the saints in the way of affection. We need hardly think of understanding this epistle without affection.
AFM Do you refer to the three embracings in that chapter?
JT Yes; Paul embracing the Ephesians, the embracing of Eutychus, and the elders embracing Paul, because he has to be taken as representative of God and of Christ. He is said here to be an apostle by the will of God, and they would so regard him.
WM Do you not think this is a higher form of address than in the case of Colossians? I mean, he does not address them as brethren, he just addresses them in connection with what they are as come from God.
JT Yes, “saints” and “faithful in Christ Jesus”. In the Acts (chapter 20) it says that Paul, after the tumult, “called unto him the disciples, and embraced them, and departed” (verse 1); and then at the end it says (verse 37), “They all wept sore, and fell on Paul’s neck, and kissed him”; so that there was reciprocal affection. Paul has to be taken there, I think, as representative of Christ, so that their feelings and affections are of all the greater importance. “They ardently kissed him”, so that one can understand the liberty with [p. 294] which he would unfold these wonderful things from the divine standpoint, not as meeting man’s need, but as meeting the requirements of the love of God — the greatest possible platform; so that he is moved at the outset, saying, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ”.
AL I suppose we have here the love of God in its own movements and its own sphere, rather than meeting our need, what love would do for its own satisfaction.
JT That is what it is, and so it requires love in us to appreciate what is presented.
You have in the address to the elders an expression that perhaps may be regarded as unique: “The assembly ... which he has purchased with the blood of his own” (Acts 20:28); possibly the strongest expression of divine love that you can get, “The blood of his own”. And so here: “He has taken us into favour in the Beloved”.
AFM What comes before us in this epistle is rather God Himself, whereas in Colossians it is Christ.
JT Yes. Perhaps what is least known amongst us is love. It is spoken of most and known least; but it marked the Ephesians saints.
Rem Would you say that was what they failed in at the last?
JT They left it. “Thou hast left thy first love” (Revelation 2:4). I am not saying that it is a question of what one observes in the brethren, but what one is conscious of: how little one knows of love as it is in God! The Colossians had “love in the Spirit” (Colossians 1:8) which is near to it.
AFM Why were the Israelites detained on the plains of Moab? Was it that they might be qualified through the covenant so as to go over in perfect suitability [p. 295] to God?
JT I think so. Moses in that encampment opened up to them his own affections for them. It was a very notable period. Deuteronomy is the opening up of the personal affections of Moses, and he calls attention, in the last chapter but one, to the love that God had for the people. “He loved the people” (chapter 33:3). I suppose He loved them in their tribal, or family relations. That is the testimony of Deuteronomy, and one feels the importance of it, because the understanding of Ephesians is contingent on love in the saints. Colossians, therefore, represents a state in the saints that leads to Ephesians, because they had love for all saints and they had “love in the Spirit”. But the facts in Acts show that the Ephesian saints loved God in His representative. They loved Paul ardently.
GAT It is very nice to see the spirit shown. They were sorry to see him leave.
JT They wept sore, and were pained that they should see his face no more. I think he expressed what God was to them. There was a wonderful display in him of the power of God and the love of God as he laboured amongst them.
GWH He says that he had not shunned to declare unto them the whole counsel of God (verse 27), which perhaps had led them into the place that they had in divine affections.
JT Quite; there is significance in the time he spent there, affording a complete testimony, three years. Undoubtedly there were new features enlarged on in the letter, but the time he spent there was adequate to unfold not only the doctrine, the truth, as he did in the school of Tyrannus daily (Acts 19:9), but to make himself known as the representative of God. This would be specially in the house-to-house work.
GWH In the Spirit of the Lord Himself [p. 296] he went about commending the truth in his own deportment.
JT He was expressive of God in Christ, coming down and entering into the circumstances of His people in their houses, unfolding the heart of God, and the counsels of God, and the place they had in the heart of God; so that one can understand how their affections would take account of all that.
GWH They were especially pained that they would see his face no more.
AFM This house-to-house work would bring Paul near the saints, and the saints near to Paul, so that what had been given publicly would be helped on privately.
JT One finds that in house-to-house work in visiting a locality you get at the saints in their everyday circumstances. You feel that in visiting the saints thus, they are in your heart, each of them, as you are doubtless in theirs.
AMH Do you think in that there is more opportunity of really bringing before the saints what is of God in anything one may have? Ministry conveys it in words and has the support of the Spirit, but in what you are referring to there is more opportunity of explaining it. You see it livingly in Paul.
JT Quite. The Lord came eating and drinking (Luke 7:34); He did not come in the arbitrary way in which John the baptist came. The Lord came eating and drinking, and was ready to accept invitations. They would see Him as He was; He “dwelt among us” (John 1:14). It could hardly be said of John that he dwelt among them. The Lord did, and so: “We beheld his glory, the glory of the only begotten of the Father” (John 1:14). I have noticed, in this house-to-house work of Paul at Ephesus, that the assembly was built and developed in the souls of the saints in a way that perhaps it was not elsewhere.
WM This affection of Paul’s was much more than brotherly love.
JT That was what I was thinking. He was a brother, of course, but he was representative of Christ.
GWH While in Philippians he speaks of their being in his heart, that was perhaps more connected with the gospel.
JT Well, Philippians is a sort of counterpart of Ephesians. They had fellowship with him in the gospel from the first day until the day on which he wrote. His presence in their houses during his service at Philippi was a marked feature.
GWH At the start, do you mean Lydia’s house?
JT Yes, and the house of the jailor.
HD Is there not an indication, in his visiting from house to house, that our houses would be a preparation for us for the house of God — a sort of representation of it?
JT Quite.
AL It is remarkable in this epistle, is it not, that it is addressed to the saints and not to the assembly?
JT I think that is important, because it is not a question of principles governing a locality in this epistle. Evidently it was intended to be of universal bearing, although addressed to those at Ephesus, because it really has in mind all the saints, the Jews and the Gentiles.
AFM He says in verse 15, “Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints”. He knew their faith, while it might take the character of that which is general.
JT I think he alluded to what was there with them. He alluded to what was local, undoubtedly, but it would apply generally — characteristically.
GWH Would it not be in view of the character of his labours at Ephesus, a kind of crowning work in connection with [p. 298] the assembly?
JT Yes; the assembly at Ephesus was his crowning work.
Ques As to this house-to-house work, is it much done nowadays, or is it possible?
JT It is very important that it should come to our attention, because I am sure it is the most effective service that can be rendered; that is, visiting the saints in their houses in the endeavour to bring God to them, to bring God in as He is in Christ.
JS I think the apostle finished his course, perhaps, in this connection; that is, receiving all that came in to him. Was not that the thing at the close of his course?
JT “In his own hired house” (Acts 28:30).
JS I thought they went to his house and proved the things that he had spoken.
JT There was not the full apostolic energy in the Latin world. There is nothing of the planting of assemblies that you get earlier; he is there as a prisoner. It is more a question of his being available to anybody that sought him, but in his apostolic labours it was not coming to him, but he going to them. That is the idea of an apostle — one that comes from God in a representative and authoritative way.
Ques Would the seeking of him in his own house correspond to the present moment? I was thinking of Timothy. He speaks of one who sought him out very diligently and found him (2 Timothy 1:17).
JT Yes, just so. He was a prisoner, of course, but nevertheless he was available to all who sought him. It says, “Received all”. It was not only that he was compelled to open the door to them and give them an audience in courtesy, but he received them.
AMH Would you say that dispensationally Paul has to be found, everything having become clouded by the break-up in Christendom? Those who need the truth have to seek it to find it. On the other hand, in our dealings with one another we can still [p. 299] carry on this house-to-house work. It is available to us.
JS I think that when it is a question of seeking out a servant, souls can go when they are ready, whereas when it is a question of looking people up today, you find saints do not always find it convenient for you to go and see them.
AMH They would be peculiar saints.
JS Well, the circumstances under which they live make it difficult. At any rate I thought there was a peculiar dignity about a servant as available for the saints when they were ready to wait on him.
AFM I believe there are plenty of doors open if we had the energy to go in. I have found that myself.
JS I would like to have my own door open.
JB-t Is there a way by which we can locate the apostle now and seek him out?
JT No doubt. The principle in John’s ministry is, I think, that we come to God. The principle in Luke is that God comes to us.
EGMcA May we not find Paul today, in Colossians and Ephesians?
JT Oh, yes; these epistles specially present his ministry.
GAT Do you not think it is a poor testimony if I am seeking Paul? I ought to be with him.
JT Yes, you should be of his ‘company’, but then many are not.
GWH-n Speaking of the love that was found in the Ephesians, how is that produced?
JT There was the full presentation of God in Christ, but he arrived at Ephesus by the “upper coasts”; there is the idea of elevation in his approach, that is, the truth presented from the heavenly level, I think. He comes into Corinth more on the lower level. There are two levels, I think, that run together. The one is meeting man’s need here — Romans is that. He comes to Corinth, more on the lower level, but,
[p. 300] passing through the upper quarters, he arrives at Ephesus, and then it was while Apollos was at Corinth. Apollos was holding the ground, I apprehend, on the lower level, that is, the adjustment of the saints in regard to the public assembly. There is that which is here before man’s eye which has to be maintained — “While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul ... came to Ephesus” (Acts 19:1). Apollos, I apprehend, was holding the ground in relation to the public body on earth — a man mighty in the Scriptures. Paul arrives at Ephesus, finds twelve men, and the point he raises is the Spirit, because the heavenly system of things depends on that. “Have ye received the Holy Spirit?” (Acts 19:2); they say, “We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Spirit. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptised? And they said, Unto John’s baptism”. And so they all receive the Spirit at one time. They had therefore an excellent start; it was the Spirit as come in in a collective way amongst them.
AL When you speak of the upper quarters, is that in keeping with what is in our scripture about the heavenlies?
JT That is what I was endeavouring to get at. The question was raised how the love that they had was developed. The truth of God in Christ was presented to them on a high level. Of course, the gospel was preached there and the world was brought down by it, but what is to be observed is that it is “The word of the Lord” — that is, the Lord, I think, as presented typically in Canaan, because it is a question of bringing down high things — Jericho, and the like. He is thus presented in relation to the purpose of God. Their affections would be formed on the highest possible platform.
AFM Do you think the fact that there were twelve, and that they were men, had some ulterior end in view, not the knowledge of God which [p. 301] would characterise this work, but the thought of administration?
JT I think so. Without mentioning it formally, there should be that which is heavenly here in testimony.
AL Would you tell us where the heavenlies are? It is not heaven, is it?
JT No, it is the heavenlies in Ephesians. I have no doubt one point is to show that He has gone beyond them all. He has gone beyond all the heavens. There is what we may call the atmospheric heavens, and then the sidereal heavens. Beyond that there is evidently what is called “the third heaven”, which would be a spiritual realm. The first two are evidently material; the third is evidently a spiritual realm, into which Paul went (2 Corinthians 12:2).
WM But you would not call that the heavenlies?
JT It was in the sense that that was one of them. The word ‘heavenlies’, I think, would be general, covering them all. Where we are actually blessed is probably the third; I am not prepared to say much beyond that. Certainly it is not a question of what is atmospheric or sidereal; it is a spiritual realm.
GWH It says we are made to sit down there. Clearly, that is spiritual.
GAT Is the third heaven God’s immediate presence?
JT Oh, I do not know that you can say much about it.
GAT Paul was caught up there; he is our apostle, and it would show the limit, would it not?
JT Well, it would, so that is what he would consider. There are the two thoughts — elevation, the third heaven; and the other is that it is a place of blessedness, that is to say, paradise. He uses two words.
WM I suppose we sometimes limit the extent [p. 302] of the heavenlies, because it speaks of combat being with wicked spirits in the heavenlies.
JT That shows that it is a general term. It is a general term, I have no doubt. Satan is said to be the prince of the power of the air. The atmospheric heavens appear there.
RSS But he would not have access beyond that?
JT I should not like to think so, but the point is that it is in that realm; not on the earth.
GAT “Where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God”, would that be the same thought?
JT He is said in this epistle to have gone beyond all the heavens. Where that is we cannot say much; it is a question of supreme elevation, where God Himself is.
AMH Referring to holding things at Corinth, do you mean that it is essential to have what is local in order, before there is the readiness for the reception of this truth? If there is not love working, if divine principles are not recognised, it is impossible to introduce this line of things. That is why we know so little about it, perhaps.
JT So that the Old Testament does not help you much in Ephesians, though there are, of course, references to it. The Old Testament helps enormously in the ordering of things down here, Corinthians and Romans, so Apollos, being mighty in the Scriptures, was of great value at Corinth.
AMH When you come to love you cannot expect the Old Testament to help you. Now, God is revealed; we know the Son of God has come. The Old Testament could not unfold that.
JT What we have here was hidden; it was a mystery.
GAT Would you say that Joshua gives us a good bit of Ephesians?
JT I am not denying that there are types, but [p. 303] Ephesians is from the standpoint of the love and counsels of God before the foundation of the world. Romans and Corinthians correspond with the previous ways of God, sin having come in; Ephesians treats of what is outside all this, what is eternal and heavenly.
GWH-n In coming from the upper regions, it is God moving of His own volition, to secure for Himself that which He had set His thought upon.
JT And so he proceeds to speak about the eternal thought of God, as he says here, “According to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the Beloved”. He immediately proceeds to the eternal thought of God for us; it all originated there before the foundation of the world; so we are dealing with that which the Old Testament did not treat of. There are types, of course, as we said.
AMH Here we have divine choosing; God has chosen. Think of God selecting! What kind of selection? He would have us, holy and unblameable before Him in love. It is the movements of divine love before the world.
JT “In love”, that is what one would wish to get hold of — “Holy and without blame before him in love”.
GWH-n We are creatures of nature and spend a great deal of time in thinking of ourselves, but is it not a helpful occupation to stand aside and to contemplate God in movements like this?
JT Yes; it lifts us out of the realm into eternity.
JB-t Everything is for God here.
JT It is for Himself; and so, that being laid down as a general basis, we have His will, “The good pleasure of his will”, “The mystery of his will”, and “The counsel of his will”. Now, God is having His way, as in the material creation, when “He spake and it was done, he commanded and it stood fast” (Psalm 33:9). Otherwise, you could not have had a [p. 304] system such as we have. Here it is the “good pleasure of his will”. Think of what that must be! Then there are the “mystery of his will” and the “counsel of his will”.
AMH Would ‘will’ be the way in which love would take form?
JT That is what I was thinking; He says virtually, ‘I have got the very best thing there is; I am going to unfold that and nothing can stand in the way’. His will means that everything must give way. Is that what you think?
AMH Yes, though I feel very weak on Ephesians. Blessed in the heavenlies, I suppose that is, in a sense, to be outside of ourselves, in the place where He has secured the blessing for us. Spiritual awakening to the position in which we are set would enable us, when it comes to our side, to meet every obstacle.
EGMcA Would you tell us the difference between His will in Colossians 1:9, “That ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will”, and in Ephesians? Here it is “The good pleasure of his will”.
JT There it is simply that the saints should have the knowledge of it, but here it is working according to it. It is not a question of our side; it is what He is doing. It is an immense thing to get it into your mind that the thing that He is going to unfold and establish permanently (His will) will break down everything contrary. “He spake and it was done; he commanded and it stood fast” (Psalm 33:9).
WM This was before the principle of responsibility entered; there was no human responsibility when this counsel was taken.
JT God is acting from Himself here for the satisfaction of His love, and the result in blessing must correspond; and nothing can prevent it.
AFM Just cite those three things again, please. Would you mind applying [p. 305] them?
JT The first is the good pleasure of His will in verse 5, “Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the Beloved”. This is where the good pleasure is seen. It is an eternal thing; the saints are brought in before Him in the Beloved, holy and without blame in love. That is the good pleasure of His will, the delight that He has in us as set up before Him in Christ.
AFM In sonship, I suppose?
JT Yes.
WM Is it not astonishing how brief the presentation of it is? The whole thing is summed up in six verses.
JT It is indeed, the greatest possible things being unfolded.
Well, the next thing is the “mystery of his will”. It is on a lower plane, I think, but essential, because it has reference to the coming day on earth. Then the third thing is the “counsel of his will”, according to which everything is worked out. But the “good pleasure of his will” is the prominent thing.
J.B-t. The full result?
JT Yes.
WM The others are a matter of working it out.
JT I think the other two are subordinate to the first. ‘Counsel’ would involve the wisdom underlying it all.
Ques How does that connect with the scripture in Hebrews 10:10, which says, “By the which will [p. 306] we are sanctified, through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all”?
JT There it is in contrast to the offerings. It is a reference to the Old Testament system — “Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first that he may establish the second, by the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ”.
AL It seems to set forth the sovereignty of God’s will here: “After the counsel of his own will”.
JT It is very strengthening to the heart to rest in what God is doing. He is acting for Himself. I like to go back to the physical creation. There was no one to interfere; there is not a word said as to any opposition to God then. The thing was done by His word and by His commandment. Well, now He is operating in a spiritual sense; there is opposition, but everything must be brushed aside for this. It is a question of His will.
WM The material creation was for His pleasure also.
EGMcA The wonderful thing for our hearts is that He works according to the counsels of His own will that we might be brought to the highest place of blessing.
JT Is not that wonderful? All is subordinate to the first main thought; that is, what He purposed in Himself before the foundation of the world. That is final; it is to abide. It is the good pleasure of His will to have us before Him in sonship, holy and without blame in love. He has got that before Him, and now all else must be subordinate.
AMH That gives you great confidence in your conflict and your exercises for the saints in prayer. Would it not be what gives you great stability there? God’s will, as you say, must go through. Whatever obstacle you see, you are content to wait; you know you have got the mind of God, and what is of God will stand. Is that why he goes on to the thought of conflict at the end of the book?
JT I have no doubt; we are fully furnished, because it is a question of the whole armour of God. That is the manner in which God comes out to fulfil [p. 307] His counsels. He is clothed with a certain armour, as it were, and we take that on.
RSS Would you say that that is the ark? It had such a place in the book of Joshua.
JT I think so. It represented Christ, first of all, as an attractive object, but when you come to Joshua 6 it is carried around Jericho. It is the beauty and power of Christ carried by the priests, and the testimony of the priests blowing the trumpets.
AMH How do you mean that? Do you mean that it is a place He gets in the hearts of His saints in a priestly way?
JT That is what I think. It is first going on through the Jordan. He is the object to draw us over, but then in Canaan we are delighted with Him. He is without a peer; the ark was carried by the priests, and seven priests blowing the trumpets. It is Christ as in heaven presented in testimony in complete spiritual power.
HD The people are now in the land, and God tells them that He planned this for them long before the foundation of the world for the satisfaction of His own heart.
JT So at Jericho the saints are contemplated as following the ark around. Typically, they would be delighted, as we see in Philippians 3. As you look at the perfection and beauty of Christ as in the land, you are delighted with Him. He becomes all to you, as we see in Paul in Philippians. And you see that you are apprehended to be like Him as in heaven.
AL I would like to get a little help on the difference between Colossians and here. In Colossians the Godhead works; here it is “After the counsel of his own will”. What is the difference in the presentation?
JT This is on a higher plane than Colossians 1:19 - 22; it is “The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ”. Of course, it is the same in Colossians as it is here, only the Godhead is presented in Colossians [p. 308] as coming out in Christ, and to reconcile everything to itself. It does not go this far. Here you have God the Father Himself moving for the accomplishment of His eternal thought.
JB-t Speaking of counsel, would it bring in all the Godhead — I mean, Father, Son and Holy Spirit?
JT It would when you think of counsel, but I think it is the Father here. It is not so much the three Persons acting as the Father.
JB-t “Let us make man”, that is what I thought.
EGMcA He has taken us into favour in the Beloved. That would express the thought.
AFM When Paul starts the doxology, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ”, that would give the setting to it.
JT Yes, it is God and man in this epistle, what God has purposed to bring about in man for His pleasure.
WM In Colossians, where reconciliation is brought in, it is on a lower level. Here it is the purpose of the Father before the principle of responsibility entered, or reconciliation was needed. It is higher in that way.
Rem We had this morning about being risen, but this is farther on — to be in the heavenlies.
JT Yes, this supposes that we are risen, of course, but being in the heavenlies is farther on. But what we were saying about the ark in Canaan appeals to one, that He now comes before us in His personal, heavenly greatness, so that the seven days’ marching round would give every Israelite a view of Him typically. You are being impressed at the outset with the greatness of Christ in His own realm, in the heavenlies. It is an important thing to see that — the difference between the going forward through the Jordan and the ark carried for seven days, and on the seventh day seven times, so that every Israelite [p. 309] would be impressed with the greatness of that, and then the walls of Jericho falling — what a testimony!
GAT Will you say a word in connection with the different positions that each one had going round the city?
JT Well, the priestly element is what predominates, and in connection with this Christ fully before the eye. His beauty and power command the saints now. It is a military position in which Christ is supreme.
Rem David had the spirit of it in Psalm 132:8.
GWH There the thought is rest for the ark, is it not? Affection would long for that.
JT Yes, but we are blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus; that is, it is in Him, so that it is of all moment at the outset to get a clear view of Christ in that relation. It is not what He is as coming out, or the work of God through Christ, but what He is there — “Blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ”.
Ques Would it be right to say that in Colossians we become extinct, and in Ephesians we are merged into one mind, “Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all”?
JT Quite, the body is for the expression of Him.
Rem His complement.
JT We come down to that at the end of this chapter. He is Head to His body, the assembly, the fulness, but, first of all, there is this thought of getting hold of Christ as He is in heaven, apprehending Him as He is in heaven, and I have no doubt that this was the point in the Israelites following the ark round Jericho. They would get a wonderful view of it.
AFM This marching round Jericho was a military exercise, yet your attention is drawn to this Person as supreme.
JT Yes, that is what is important. The Old Testament never gives you the very image of the [p. 310] thing. You do not get the transaction at Jericho repeated; it is for one purpose, that Christ may come into prominence in the minds and hearts of the saints; that He may come into prominence as He is in heaven; and that is what you get in John 20:17, “I ascend”. The emphasis is on that. “Say unto them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father”.
AFM There were seven days, and seven times on the seventh day.
JT So you can see what an opportunity they would have to get a view of Christ, day after day, and then seven times. How a true Israelite would be impressed with that! It would bear on him ever afterwards. It would enter into all that followed. What do you think about that?
AMH I thought it would in that way identify the people in their state with the ark, what is made good in the Spirit down here; that is, in affection in the saints. Apprehending what is set forth here in a measure, going round the city with the ark, would be the continual fresh impression of Christ in that character.
JT Joshua at the end of chapter 5 says, “Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?” But that is not the thought at all. This book is what Christ is in relation to the purpose of God — that is a different matter altogether.
Rem In Philippians 3 Paul is pressing forward to the calling.
JT That is the thing. He was aiming at “The calling on high of God in Christ Jesus”.
AL This thought of the heavenlies in Christ seems to unfold. We could not enter into it unless we had the second chapter. It involves resurrection; it is not on earth, it is in the heavenlies. It has been pointed out that you must be in the heavenlies first.
[p. 311] JT The point is the place of the blessings, to show the greatness of the thing. It is what God purposed in Christ before the foundation of the world for Himself. That is the important point in Ephesians.
We must get hold of what the Spirit would emphasise in this consideration. Joshua was told, “Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy” (Joshua 5:15). You are impressed with having to do with heavenly things, and so in the next chapter the city was shut up on account of the children of Israel. They were to take possession, so the ark has to be carried by the priests, because the thing is to get a view of Christ as He is in heaven.
GWH Would not the transfiguration help?
JT Somewhat; it is the power and glory of our Lord Jesus Christ, but this really goes beyond anything else — what He is in heaven.
WM Do you not think that this is manifested by the fact that the testimony of the Ephesians was not to men on earth? It was to principalities and powers in the heavenlies.
JT That is the thing. You see the elevation we are on, that it is “To the principalities and authorities in the heavenlies”.
WM In Corinthians it was to men.
JT Quite, what is down here, but in Ephesians what is to be displayed is the assembly, “In order that now to the principalities and authorities in the heavenlies might be made known through the assembly the all-various wisdom of God” (Ephesians 3:10). How can we come into that save as we apprehend Christ there, and I think that in the seven days in which the ark is carried around, the saints are impressed with the greatness of Christ.
Rem These two words we have here are suggestive, “the beloved”.
JT You are now dealing with expressions that [p. 312] belong really to heaven. We are dealing with wonderful things, and one feels how important it is to, as it were, take off one’s shoes and follow the ark, so as to be impressed with the greatness of Christ.
AMH That expression very much gives you the difference between Colossians and Ephesians. It is the beloved One in whom God finds His delight and satisfaction. The kingdom of the Son of His love is more the way in which He has come out to us down here, but this is what God is doing up there and bringing us into it.
JT That is the thing; the difference is just there between the Son of the Father’s love, in relation to the kingdom, and the Beloved.
WM I suppose that this is the moral reason why there is no mention of the rapture in Ephesians.
JT We are already in heaven according to chapter 2. Our blessings are all in the heavenlies; then we are raised up. It is not resurrection in the ordinary sense; it is elevation — “Raised us up together and made us sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus”.
EGMcA Then in this seven days’ march the children of Israel would be occupied, not with Jericho, but with the movements of the ark.
JT The movements of the ark, that is the thing.
GWH And the overthrow of Jericho gives occasion to display His greatness.
JT And it makes very little of one; they do not have to strike a blow. The thought is to get into your soul what He is in the heavenlies, that is the thing.
RSS We get that, and it perhaps accounts for what follows in verse 12, etc., where it says, “That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ ... in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until [p. 313] the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory”. Is not the Spirit introduced here as the power by which we may enter into these things?
JT Just so, and the earnest of our inheritance would be that we have the thing already. You know you have the thing already, in principle, in the earnest.
WM It is much easier to understand Apollos than Paul.
JT Very much easier. It is very much easier to see Apollos at Corinth, because most of us have not advanced further. You feel that. Of course, we are glad to have the saints even there, and I suppose it is almost entirely the service at the present time to keep the saints at Corinth; there is not much apprehension of ascension.
Rem We must know Him there to get power.
JT What comes out now is what our brother has called attention to — the Spirit. He is presented as “The earnest of our inheritance”. We have the thing in principle, but, knowing certain things, the apostle says, “I also ... cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him”. There are the three things that we have often dwelt upon, “The hope of his calling”, and “The riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints”, and “The exceeding greatness of his power”. These are the three things that are essential to what we have been dealing with.
GWH It refers to “The God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory”. What is the thought in connection with the Father of glory — the source of glory?
JT The source of glory, I think it is.
WM James calls Him the “Father of lights” (James 1:17) where all the light comes from.
EHT God has got Christ where He intended to have Him, and He is occupied with Him there, whether we are or not.
JT “That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, would give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge of him”. It is not simply now a question of studying Christ, but the “spirit of wisdom and revelation”. That is something given, not acquired. God gives it.
WM Ministry does not impart this.
JT No, it is a question of God giving it to us.
WM So that Paul, after all this ministry, has to pray that this may be effected.
AFM Is that the fruit of knowing God, or is it to help us to know God — the spirit of revelation?
JT It is in the full knowledge of the Son that you have it; that is to say, it is a collateral thing. The knowledge of God is presented in Paul’s ministry in Ephesians; God is presented to me in Christ in the fulness of the revelation of Himself, in His nature and His counsels. The spirit of wisdom and revelation in me is collateral to that. I have got the spirit of it, that is, I have a way of taking things in, not merely by the study of Scripture; I have got a way of taking things in that is beyond what is natural.
GWH-n Here it is the capacity to take in revelation.
JT The spirit of wisdom and revelation enables you to understand everything. “Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God” (Hebrews 11:3). Now, the spirit of wisdom and revelation enters into that. The man who has got the spirit of wisdom and revelation knows very much more about the physical system than the scientists do, but then he goes beyond that, and he has got the “hidden wisdom”. He has got access to the hidden wisdom. He understands God in His secret thoughts and counsels, which goes far beyond what is displayed in the physical creation.
WM He has the mind of Christ, that is, the thinking faculty of Christ.
EGMcA Why are the “eyes of the heart” brought in here?
JT Oh, I think to keep the affections in accord with the mind. He is dealing, not with man’s lower affections, the soul, but with the higher affections, the heart.
AFM What is there for God, is that the thought? “What the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints”.
JT That is a question of what God has. He would have you to know what God has in the saints.
WM The inheritance is below. Is it what God inherits in the saints?
JT I think that the saints are the inheritance, for, after all, what would be an inheritance to God save what is set up in living affections? And then “the exceeding greatness of his power”. That corresponds with His will. The will of God is carried out because of His power. There is no power to compete with the power of God as wrought in Christ.
GWH-n You mean that the power is at the command of His will, to give effect to the counsels and will?
JT Just so, and it “worketh in us”; and so the Spirit in the apostle, whose heart is filled up with the truth of these wonderful things, runs on to where God has set Christ, “Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come and hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the [p. 316] assembly, which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all”.
GWH It says that He “set him down at his right hand in the heavenlies”.
JT That has reference, I think, to what God is doing. His “right hand” signifies what He is doing.
GWH His hand being that by which He works; and in the heavenlies, referring to the sphere of the operations. He is above everything.
EGMcA In Colossians we find Him the Creator of all principalities and powers, etc. Now He is set down here above them. Would you say a word on that?
JT Well, this is to show the elevation to which He has gone, and the means God has thus of carrying out His divine thoughts, His eternal thoughts. His operations are carried on from the highest point.
AFM The thought of the assembly being brought in at the end is to add lustre to His glory; He is given to be “head over all things to the assembly, which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all”.
JT God has brought her in for Him. The divine thought was expressed in Adam and Eve. The fulness of Christ is in the assembly, so that we can see what a vessel, what a wonderful thing it is.
JB-t We see Him in the vessel.
JT One feels that one hardly knows anything of it; what a wonderful vessel it is! Consider all of this, the elevation of it, and that He is set over all things in relation to the assembly, that there should be the shining out in her!
EAS “In whom we have redemption”, that would touch our affections.
JT Just so, coming down to the needs of our souls. That is taken in incidentally.
JB-t Noticing the assembly in this way, as [p. 317] the vessel of display throughout all eternity, is not that the reason why He does not speak of the assembly locally at all?
JT It is the whole thing that is presented here.
WM He does not go beyond the world to come in this chapter, but in chapter 3 he goes into eternity.
JT Here the assembly is Christ’s body; but in chapter 3 it is for God; it is “Unto him (God) be glory in the assembly by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end”.
GWH It is in chapter 3 also that the assembly is the vessel here in which is manifested to principalities and powers “The all-various wisdom of God”, (chapter 3:10).
Rem Will you say a word on the difference between the power for us here and “in us”in chapter 3?
JT I think it is the same power; it is no less. The power that “worketh in us” is the power that wrought in Christ. It is the “exceeding greatness of his power”. That could not be said about the power used in the material creation. It was power, of course, “his eternal power” (Romans 1:20), it says, but here it is “the exceeding greatness”. It exceeds all other power; it is working silently and obscurely in this world to bring about the divine counsels.
Rem It is a little like the end of Psalm 72, going further, of course: “The prayers of David, the son of Jesse, are ended”. He has no need to ask for anything more.
JT There is prayer and bowing of the knees, but it ends in a doxology, the apostle being moved in his feelings, which is befitting in the presence of such a subject as this.
GWH Is it that he recognises that there is reached now, and will be perpetually, the glory of God in this vessel, the assembly?
JT Yes; therefore, at the end of chapter 2 it is what we are down here provisionally, but at the end [p. 318] of chapter 3 it is what we shall be eternally, so it says, “Unto him be glory in the assembly by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end”. That is final.
AL That is like the psalm our brother has quoted, “Blessed be his glorious name forever” (Psalm 72:19). He can well get glory throughout all generations through the ages of ages in the assembly.
JT This “Amen” has to do with eternity.