INDIANAPOLIS DECEMBER 1925, READING (3)
INDIANAPOLIS DECEMBER 1925, [p. 269] READING (3)
Colossians 2; Colossians 3:1 - 4; Joshua 3:1 - 6; Joshua 5:1 - 9
RSS For the benefit of those who were not with us yesterday, as well as for the benefit of those who were, I think several would be very glad to have you give an outline of what we had in connection with the first chapter of Colossians.
JT It was thought that at the beginning a word on the Spirit would enable the younger ones to follow more intelligently our consideration of the epistle to the Colossians, so we looked at Exodus 17 and Numbers 21 in connection with Romans 5 and 8. We saw that the Spirit is given in answer to the sufferings of Christ. Not only is He given administratively, as expressing the wealth of heaven, the divine gift as at Pentecost, but He is given in answer to the sufferings of Christ (the Rock was smitten), and as so given and recognised by the believer, formation takes place and the believer progresses and acquires territory — spiritual territory. He learns to acquire territory, as illustrated in Numbers 21 in the Israelites taking the cities of the Amorites and dwelling in them. It was thought that Romans 8 answers to that and that the believer, having the Spirit, has begun to use the Spirit and by the Spirit to acquire things; he cries “Abba, Father”, by the Spirit. He consciously knows relationship with God as his Father. And then we dwelt on the first chapter of the epistle to the Colossians, in which we saw that the Father delivers us from the authority of darkness and translates us into the kingdom of the Son of His love.
We saw also that the Spirit is mentioned but once, and this in connection with love, the saints having love in the Spirit, so that the work of the Spirit is more in [p. 270] evidence than the Spirit Himself. As translated into the kingdom of the Son of the Father’s love, we are prepared for His benign rule and influence, so that He becomes all to us; He becomes attractive. The Spirit of God enlarges on His personal greatness, and then we are brought into correspondence in that we are reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, so that God should present us holy, unblameable and unreproveable in His sight; and I think that a word from Joshua helps here because in the verse following that with which we finished in chapter 5 it is said that they encamped at Gilgal. The encampments of the people, beginning in Exodus, signified spiritual stages. God usually bound up some special phase of the truth in each encampment. I think that Colossians contemplates an encampment — a point reached. Certain lessons are learned, for what is presented is impressed on us daily during the period of the encampment.
GAT Would you say we encamp in the territory we have taken?
JT Yes, although the idea of taking territory does not appear until we come to Numbers 21. There were many encampments before that, but this encampment at Gilgal, which was of long duration, was an important one. The saints, having entered Canaan, were to learn daily the meaning of the rolling away of the reproach of Egypt. It is a lesson hard to learn.
GWH And even though they proceeded from Gilgal, yet they returned.
JT They returned after their conflicts so that they might ever learn that the flesh profits nothing.
JB-t Did they encamp there all the days of Joshua? I thought they went further.
JT Yes, they set up the tabernacle at Shiloh; but after Joshua’s death the angel of the Lord went from Gilgal to Bochim. It was after they lost the meaning of Gilgal that the angel removed from Gilgal [p. 271] and went to Bochim (Judges 2:1); there had been a breakdown.
AFM I suppose after Gilgal, in contrast with an encampment, you have a dwelling.
JT Quite. They had reached a land of promise; Caleb, who was the first to claim it, refers to his lot as a possession for ever; (Joshua 14:9).
AFM You might speak of Romans as being an encampment; possibly that which we considered yesterday morning, that is, Colossians, another one. I mean Gilgal as suggested by Colossians.
JT Yes, I think so. Jephthah speaking to the king of Ammon, outlining the territory acquired by Israel as having come out of Egypt, would indicate, I think, what was recovered during the Reformation. It was territory outside of Canaan, but nevertheless territory acquired; Jephthah outlined the extent of that territory, pointing out that it was taken from the Amorites — not from Ammon and Moab; (Judges 11:15 - 22).
AFM Do you think that the truth of the presence and operation of the Spirit was recovered during the Reformation?
JT I think Romans in a general way.
AFM Justification by faith.
JT I do not suppose that Romans 8 was understood, but later the heavenly territory has been acquired, and that involves Colossians. I think the word may be regarded to mean correction. It is so given. It would be, therefore, Gilgal in a general way. It would be a point reached which involves constant correction or discipline. “Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth” (Colossians 3:5).
RSS What is meant exactly by rolling away the reproach of Egypt?
JT It is the putting off of the body of the flesh in the death of Christ; the flesh, as marking Egypt, is a reproach now. It must not be brought into service [p. 272] in relation to the things of God. We know how extensively it is seen in the religious world around us, how Egyptian ways and principles are employed. They are employed almost generally, and without any sense of shame at all, in the religious systems around us, whereas circumcision implies that all that is rolled away. God has done it.
AFM Are the things in chapter 2 what you refer to — the things that are in the world?
JT Yes, Colossians 2 deals with them. What may distinguish one in the world is a reproach in the assembly.
GAT So that if the parents were taking account of it in the way you are speaking now, they would have circumcised them while in the wilderness. They were careless about it.
JT They were careless about that, exactly, whereas when you arrive at Gilgal, the Canaan side of Jordan, the question is raised. God impresses it upon them. The Canaanitish kings become terrorised and that, of course, would tend to elate the flesh and give the flesh further opportunity of exalting itself. God immediately brought in this principle — there must be circumcision; that is to say, the flesh is not to clothe itself with the results of divine power; it must get no credit at all.
AMH In Romans it would be more what the conscience would have to say, but here, do you not think, it is a question of circumcision as a result of affection working in us, that what is not according to the new pattern is unseemly in our eyes?
JT That is it. Perhaps you might have something to say about it.
AMH It is more elegant things, things that man might approve of. In Romans 7 it is things you must disapprove. They are contrary to the enlightened conscience and become offensive on that ground, but the things that have been brought in, as you were [p. 273] saying, in regard to divine things are more what is elegant in the eyes of the world. The apostle refers to them — a Hebrew of the Hebrews, things that men might boast in, but not boasting in what is in relation to Christ.
JT Just so, so that in this chapter he brings in the mystery — not as it is in Ephesians, the mystery of God’s will (Ephesians 1:9), but the mystery “In which are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge” (verse 3). He says, “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit”. Having in the mystery all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge, they did not need philosophy and vain deceit.
JB-t Is there not reference to the reproach of Egypt in these — the wisdom of the Egyptians?
JT Yes, all that which attaches to Egyptian ways, what marked the Egyptians. We are exposed to what would pass in the world of refinement, the world of literature, the world of learning — philosophy and vain deceit would hold there.
AMH Is not what precedes this in chapter 1:27, “This mystery ... Christ in you, the hope of glory”, the displacing power, as you might say — the Lord and all that marks Him, having a place in our affections, would not that have a displacing effect and prepare us for recognising the other as reproach?
JT Quite so. One has often thought of the Lord as He came into the company of His disciples after He rose from the dead, if one were to bring Mary Magdalene, for instance, a book of science or philosophy, and say, Now, this is a very good book, what would she think about it? She would think of the Lord and say, All is here — not only the wisdom seen in the physical system, the wisdom which all the sciences professedly seek after, the science of astronomy or geology, or whatever else, they all professedly seek after the wisdom in the physical creation. Doubtless later she would understand that there was [p. 274] not only that, but the hidden wisdom which had not been brought into action in the physical system, which God before the world prepared “unto our glory” (1 Corinthians 2:7). Christ was this among the Gentiles, particularly in the Greek world, I think; because, as a matter of fact, Paul’s personal ministry was generally confined to the Greek world, from Jerusalem to Illyricum (Romans 15:19). His active apostolic labours were mainly confined, as far as Scripture goes, to the original Greek world, and he would bring there, not only what wisdom was employed in the physical creation of the world and the formation of the universe, but the hidden wisdom. The word ‘hid’ is prominent in this epistle. God has been most lavish in the physical system, in what He has displayed, but He has reserved something.
WM It is now hidden in the mystery.
JT It was hid before the world. It was prepared for us — “which God ordained before the world unto our glory”. It is a very wonderful thought that there is wisdom which God prepared before the world for our glory.
WM It was like the introduction of a new library into the Greek world. The believer did not need to consult any other books.
JT And so the testimony, as Paul presented it in its full height in Ephesus, brought down the books of this world. They went down before it, for what were they in the presence of the wisdom brought in by the Spirit and the unfolding of the mystery of God?
AFM They were just books of “curious art” and “charms”.
JT Just so, and those who had them brought them and burnt them (Acts 19:19). It is a striking testimony to the power of the truth in the saints. The books were not ordinary, but such as had especial power over men’s minds.
GWH It says, “So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed” (Acts 19:20).
WM I suppose the Greek mind was the most cultured that has ever existed in the world, before or since.
JT It was known to be that. It had that place, and has it today.
GAT Why did they burn the books?
JT That they did so shows how completely the truth had laid hold of the saints. The books were not only useless and damaging to them, but to all others.
EHT What connection is there with the physical world and the mystery?
JT Well, Proverbs 8:30 says, “Then I was by him, as one brought up with him”, as the physical system developed, but then in Proverbs 9:1 it says, “Wisdom hath builded her house”; that is another thing, and it is an allusion to the assembly. If Wisdom builds her house, you have that in which is displayed the “all-various wisdom of God”.
AMH Do you think the “seven pillars” suggest the spiritual character of everything there, including the thought of spiritual beauty? Our tendency is to be attracted by something that strikes the mind. There is spiritual excellence and beauty in everything that is introduced by Christ.
JT One is reminded of Paul’s labours at Corinth, which was renowned for its architecture. Corinthian architecture is famed even now, and what is so remarkable is that the ‘architect’ of the assembly, as he calls himself in that letter, dwelt there as a tent-maker. He was actually labouring in that city as a tent-maker, that is, he had no thought at all of corresponding with what was in Corinth, or vying with them in any way. He was just a tent-maker. The word ‘craft’ is used. He was of the same craft as a man and his wife, and yet in his soul, or, as I should say, in his mind, by the Spirit of God, there [p. 276] was the full design of the assembly — a greater thing than is spoken of in Proverbs 9. The physical system is not comparable with Wisdom’s house. Chapter 9 is Wisdom’s house, and Paul was the architect, or the master-builder, of that. He had all the light of God in his soul, as you may say, while working as tent-maker in the reputed city of architecture!
AFM I think the connection there is very beautiful. In coming to Corinth he was in the truth of Gilgal. He said, “I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified” (1 Corinthians 2:2). His power lay in that.
AL Is it not important in that connection that the name of the place was called Gilgal “unto this day”? Paul kept it up, and I presume “unto this day” would bring it down to our day, would it not?
JT Well, it brought it down to the day of the writer. That often appears in Scripture. But it is sorrowful to note the discontinuance of the principle in later days, as you get in Amos 5:5: “Seek not Bethel, nor enter into Gilgal”. These places had lost their spiritual meaning. “Seek ye me”, God says, instead of these places; but while they retain their spiritual force let us abide in them.
AL So that Paul maintained the truth of circumcision, not only in his soul, but in his testimony in the face of all the learning and philosophy, and do you not think that we would get rid of a great deal if we burned a lot of our books — I mean morally, burned the thought and idea of having in our minds any trace of what is human? For instance, Samuel, in connection with Agag, the king was a desirable person, evidently, in Saul’s mind, but Samuel hewed him to pieces before the Lord in Gilgal (1 Samuel 15:33).
JT Very good. He came to him ‘delicately’, that is, he had the marks of refinement about him.
AL And he said, “Surely the bitterness of death is past” (1 Samuel 15:[p. 277] 32).
JT You can see how in Paul, according to the way he presents himself in this epistle, we have before our eyes a model — a man who had every means of acquiring the wisdom of this world; he had access to the princes of this world; the princes would be the leaders; he had every means of acquiring all that they had. He was brought up at the feet of Gamaliel, he said, and yet see him at Corinth, he abode at Gilgal and maintained that outward lowliness — outwardly “a simple person”. As he says, he came “not with excellency of speech or of wisdom” (1 Corinthians 2:1), but maintained his relations with Gilgal. But it was not that he had not got the hidden wisdom: “We speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought, but ... the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory” (1 Corinthians 2:6,7). Now, that is what he would open up to us in this epistle; with this in view we get what you may call negative ministry, stressing what Gilgal represents.
GAT Do you connect that with baptism?
JT It precedes baptism here. Circumcision is the leading feature, I think, of the negative teaching of this chapter.
AMH That is, you mean it is viewed here as done in Christ.
JT We are circumcised in the circumcision of Christ in the putting off of the body of the flesh, that is to say, the whole thing. That is what I understand; the whole thing has been dealt with effectually in Christ.
AMH We are taken back to the cross, and I suppose if we could feel it more, the shame there is in clinging to anything of the flesh, in our ministry or in our conduct with one other, it would make room for increase of power, and the apprehension of [p. 278] the mystery.
AFM Would you tell us the difference between concision and circumcision?
JT I suppose concision was a kind of half measure; it was not the whole thing.
AFM It was more like an appearance or a show, and so was deceptive; the saints were warned against it (Philippians 3:2).
JT ‘Circum’ is the whole thing; it goes all the way.
WM Concision would retain the religious flesh.
EGMcA Now that we are not supposed to go to Gilgal nor Bethel, where do we go? Is it to the Person?
JT Well, where there is general departure we have got to begin over again, and that is what Amos 5:4 insists on: “Seek ye me”. You will have observed that in Amos.
AMH I was thinking in connection with that how everything is revived in Christ personally. I was thinking of Elijah’s journey, how he leads Elisha through all that series of places in which breakdown had occurred, to recover the principles of them in vitality in himself.
JT That is the thing. Elijah would represent the Lord and, as in the company of Elijah, Elisha would understand what each place signified. It would be a new start for him, and so I think in our own times the ministry of John begins with the Person of Christ, not what He was genealogically, nor humanly, nor ministerially, but what He was personally — “In the beginning was the Word” (John 1:1). He establishes a basis on which every true Christian can stand. A man is not a Christian at all unless he is interested in the Person of Christ. John is like Amos in that way — “Seek ye me”. That is the thing, not Gilgal, nor these religious things. They had a place, but departure has robbed them of their force and we have got to begin over again. Hence the Lord gives no name
to the dwelling-place when John’s disciples, who followed Him, inquired where He dwelt (John 1:38).
AMH They were attracted to the Person. They were leaving Gilgal. All had broken down and John calls attention to Him, and they were attracted to the One in whom everything was embodied. I was interested in Elisha, that the first step Elijah went with Elisha was from Gilgal; afterwards, Elisha goes with Elijah. Where there is any movement on this line, recovery of what God has introduced, God is immediately with you. He (Elijah) went with Elisha from Gilgal and then touches all these places, that Elisha might be enlarged, and he crosses Jordan. Do you think that is right?
JT Very beautiful indeed, very suggestive; so, in going over Jordan with Elijah, walking and talking with him, and seeing him go up, Elisha, coming back with a double portion of his spirit, would visit these places with intelligence. There was therefore a new start for himself and for the people.
AMH A new cruse is introduced, an entirely new one.
GAT Would you mind repeating what you said about how I get on?
JT Well, just to see the Person of Christ as brought in in John. The Person of Christ is brought in, and if one is not ready to listen to Him, what is there? If I am not interested in the Person of Christ Himself, as presented in John 1, I am not born of God.
GAT So, “If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maran-atha” (1 Corinthians 16:22).
JT Just so, John therefore, instead of bringing in doctrine, brings in the Person. There is a new beginning. “Seek ye me”, it says in Amos. “As many as received him” (John 1:12). If the Person is received there will be following; therefore, as you [p. 280] said, Elijah tested Elisha. He would go further, but Elisha would follow — even through death itself.
AMH It might be well to refer to that scripture in Amos 5:4 - 8. “Seek ye me and ye shall live: but seek not Bethel, nor enter into Gilgal, and pass not to Beer-Sheba; for Gilgal shall surely go into captivity and Bethel shall come to nought”. Then the passage runs on to the creatorial questions of Jehovah, who is to be sought.
EGMcA Is the secret of the lost significance of Bethel and Gilgal found in verse 4 of the previous chapter?
JT Quite: “Come to Bethel, and transgress”, etc. People take up these religious things and pursue their own will, so that there is need for a new start. John, I think, contemplated the departure and began over again. He begins with Christ, with His Person. He is the test to everybody.
AMH He begins by the contemplation of His glory.
AFM John seems to drop names and terms that are used in the epistles. It is the Person Himself.
JT That is it. Things are to be learned afresh in Him. The temple, for instance, was His body.
AFM He infers the house of God, but does not call it by name.
JT Quite. The Son — Himself again — abides in the house for ever.
AL It is very remarkable that in our difficulties in the present day the presentation of Christ meets them all.
JT “As many as received him”, it says. One is tested by Him. “He came unto his own and his own received him not” (John 1:11). That is the line on which John works. There must be a work of God in us, for “The flesh profits nothing” (John 6:63)
WM John does not enlarge on His relative titles so much; I mean he does not call Him Priest [p. 281] nor Head; the titles he uses are generally personal.
JT Quite. So in John’s ministry we have a new beginning, and everyone that loves Christ is sure to be affected by a right presentation of His Person.
Now, the next thing is there are those who have contemplated Him — whoever they may be, thank God for them. “We have contemplated his glory”; those who have affection for Him, and speak about Him. Then we got the testimony of the baptist; John 1:15. Here is a man who comes from God; what has he to say about this Person? “There standeth one among you ... who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe’s latchet I am not worthy to unloose” (John 1:26,27), and he goes on to call attention to Christ, and how he became acquainted with Him: “And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God” (John 1:34). So that competent witnesses are brought forward to call attention to Christ, persons who have contemplated Him and “a man sent from God”.
Now, that is the way that recovery is brought about at the present time — the presentation of the Person of Christ. The next thing is, therefore, who will follow Him? The ministry of the baptist is so effective, so free from himself that his disciples turn away from him and follow Jesus, and they want to know where He dwells. There is no raising of questions about the Old Testament; it is simply a question of the Person. Later on the disciples of John and a Jew were disputing about purification (John 3:25), but there is nothing like that in the true followers of Jesus. They are not occupied with questions; they are occupied with the Person, and where the Person dwells.
EGMcA Is that the force of the expression, “As therefore ye have received the Christ, Jesus the Lord”?
JT There it is. The Colossians had [p. 282] received Him.
EHT I was wondering why the title “Christ” was brought in so prominently.
JT Through the Christ God effects everything and sets out His pleasure. The Colossians had received Him and they were to move on accordingly; “walk in him”.
AFM If you leave it entirely with Him, He will lead you aright.
JT Walking in Him implies that you disallow all that is contrary to Him. As our brother pointed out, the movements of Elijah tested Elisha. But he was equal to the test: “As Jehovah liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee” (2 Kings 2:2); and then there are the sons of the prophets at a distance intruding, as if they knew better than Elisha. We have to contend with the sons of the prophets, but the great point is to cleave to Elijah — “I will not leave thee”.
JB-t Speaking of the Lord, John says, “And I knew him not” (John 1:31), there was that which was hidden, but made manifest to faith.
JT Yes. The point as to John here is ‘sent’ — “a man sent from God”. “He that sent me ... the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptiseth with the Holy Spirit. And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God” (John 1:33,34). So you have a competent witness.
GWH-n In this ‘encampment’ there are some very positive lessons: “In him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead”; Paul was greatly concerned that the Colossians should not be diverted from this of which they were in danger.
JT It is now ‘bodily’. We have to distinguish this from the mystery “In which are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge”. This refers to the assembly, Christ’s body here, but all the fulness [p. 283] of the Godhead dwells in Christ bodily, so that we have all that now brought within our range. The Godhead was pleased to dwell in Him (chapter 1), but here it is in Him bodily, meaning that it is within our range.
AL It is in a glorified and unlimited condition now.
JT Yes, but the thing is the Godhead is in Him bodily. You can understand it.
AFM Was not the truth of the first chapter true of Him here as a Man on earth? It was there; that is, as Man here.
JT Oh, I think that was true always.
JB-t His personal greatness.
AFM He was personally God.
JT Yes, only I think He occupied a mediatorial place even before: “By whom also He made the worlds” (Hebrews 1:2). I mean Colossians 1 is a question of His Person, who He was. He is spoken of as creating everything. It is a question of the Person, but in the second chapter He is brought within our range; it is in Him bodily. The first chapter is not so much the condition He took (although this is stated) but the greatness of the Lord’s Person whether as Man or before.
AMH “Bodily”, that is, it has taken form. Would you connect it with “The image of the invisible God”? It is all that God has given in a Man for our apprehension and appropriation. That is ‘bodily’, I think.
JT The thought in the second chapter is that He has brought it all there, available to us. The point in the first chapter is to stress His Person, and so many glories are predicated of Him, but in this chapter it is a question of things being in Him bodily. He is a real Man in whom God in all that He is, dwells, and through whom He makes Himself known.
AFM Is not the viewpoint of chapter 1 from [p. 284] His manhood, that this Person whom we know was Creator, etc., and as Man here, all these qualities are found in Him?
JT Yes, it is the Son of the Father’s love, but it is very like John 1. It is the Person, because all that He was divinely is necessarily in Him as a Person presented to my affections; but when it is a question of my participating in the things then it is what is in Him bodily.
AMH It is very important to see that the fulness dwells in Him personally. That is one of His glories contemplated. The fulness of the Godhead dwelt there.
JT If I think of the Person, I think of Him, whether in the body or before, but if I think of what is brought within my range for my appropriation now, it is what is in Him bodily.
AMH As we already touched upon, “In the beginning was the Word”, but there is no appropriation of Him, or life brought to us, until He comes in flesh. “The Word became flesh”, it says, but we like to contemplate Him as “In the beginning”. That produces adoration.
WM Do you not think there was a mediatorial thought from all eternity?
JT Well, I think it is quite right to say that, because it says “By whom”.
WM In Philippians 2:5 it says, “Let this mind”. The mind was there when He was in the form of God.
HD The fulness of the Godhead dwells in Him bodily, and then follows, “Ye are complete in him”. The complete thought as to us is suggested in that all fulness dwells in Christ bodily.
JT There are two thoughts there. “In him dwells all the fulness”, and then “Ye are complete”, or “filled full” in Him who is the Head of all principality and power. The first is what He is to me from God; the second is what I am in Him towards [p. 285] God.
HD One is consequent upon the other. One comes to me in all His fulness, and I am presented Godward in completeness.
JT And so He is Head from our side, which is a very great thing. As it says, “Which is the head of all principality and power, in whom also ye are circumcised”. As “complete in him”, all the things are stated to show how we correspond with Him, that is to say, in circumcision and in baptism. These are negative things. Quickening is positive. “With him” has to be noted here all through.
JB-t Circumcision and burial would be negative.
JT Yes.
AFM Raised with Him is positive — raised and quickened.
EHT Do you want to say something about the opening verse of chapter 3 before we close?
JT Well, it is based on this chapter. “If ye then be risen with Christ”. It is important to see that, inasmuch as we are brought into correspondence with Christ through circumcision and baptism, and resurrection and quickening, there were certain things in our way, such as “The law of commandments contained in ordinances” (Ephesians 2:15). These things were in the way, and they are taken out of it by God. Men have brought them back again in the religious world.
WM Do you think that the word ‘us’ here would confine these obstructions to the Jewish believers particularly?
JT I think it would. They would suffer most, but also some of the Gentiles; they knew law. Men have brought these things back, and that is the thing to notice. Men are going contrary to God. God took them out of the way, nailing them to the cross — a most remarkable statement — and men have set them up again in the most prominent and [p. 286] pretentious way.
AMH What would be the difference in practical effect (just to go back a moment) between circumcision and baptism? Frequently in the death of Christ baptism is presented as buried with Him.
JT I suppose circumcision has to do with the state in which we are, the flesh — “In his flesh”, therefore. Baptism has more to do with what is outside of us, with the world. One thus disappears out of the world.
AMH ‘Risen’, what is that?
JT Well, I think it is to take us beyond the domain of death — into God’s world indeed. It is not here dead to the world, as in Romans (”Reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin” Romans 6:11), but I am taken out of it altogether, because Colossians is looking on to our going into the inheritance. This chapter is crucial; it is the chapter by which adjustments take place; I gradually pass out of the world and death altogether into the wide region of life.
AMH “Through the faith of the operation of God” would be the laying hold of the power of God. Does that mean something which we enter into here — not that which is effected in His death merely, but faith is in operation?
JT I think so. It is faith in the work of God, but now you are in the light of what God is doing for you, leading up to Ephesians 1:19, “The exceeding greatness of his power”.
JB-t Is not there the thought that there is something buried here that never will be raised?
JT I think the thing is to see that it is “with him”, that you have been in the company, so to say, of Elijah all the way through. You are moving with Him; He has become an object to the affections. It is “buried with him”, “raised with him”. Faith is spoken of here once, because it is a question of being [p. 287] in the light of the operation of God, as seen in the resurrection of Christ.
RSS It is not that we are actually raised, but we are raised by faith.
WM That includes all Christians, whether advanced or not.
JT Certainly, from the divine side all is done, but it is said here of those who had faith in the power of God.
AFM Is not this the Jordan? Is not “buried with him” here the passage of the Jordan?
JT Oh, it is. It is not the Red Sea that is in view. As has often been remarked, the Red Sea and Jordan are one thing, only in Jordan we are occupied with going into the land, not simply walking “in newness of life” and living before the world in testimony; going in, I am in company with the One I love and He knows where He is taking me.
AMH Going over Jordan suggests a deliberate act. It is true of all Christians on the divine side, but it supposes a certain state arrived at and which can appreciate this feature of the truth.
JT The work of God, as you intimate, lies underneath it. There is appreciation, or the ability to appreciate what is presented.
HD I was thinking of the eunuch. Was he buried in baptism at the death of Christ or at the time he was baptised?
JT He could not be buried in baptism until he was baptised. As Elisha (2 Kings 13:20) died the subject of burying came into evidence. They were burying a man; now, burying is a great thing, because if a man have no burial he is worse off than if he had not been born at all (Ecclesiastes 6:3); and so, as Elisha died, they were burying a man, and the bands of the Moabites invaded the land at that time, and those who were burying him cast him into the sepulchre of Elisha. It was a very irregular thing, as if to point [p. 288] out that burial according to God had been interfered with by the Moabitish bands. I think the religious systems have interfered with the idea of burial according to God. Nevertheless, the man was cast into the sepulchre of Elisha and he went down. It was real burial.
AMH Touching the bones of Elisha brought him to life.
JT That is it. He went down and touched the bones of Elisha and that is where life came in. I think that here in Colossians you have the true idea of burial; that is, we are buried with Him in order that we should be raised with Him. It is a real thing. This is the divine idea and then, alongside of that, you have quickening, that the man who is buried and raised is actually living. He is a living person. The man touched the bones of Elisha and he stood on his feet.
HD When does that actually take place, when I am actually baptized — buried with Christ, I mean?
JT You see, we are contemplating burial through baptism as it is in the mind of God, and it involves faith. It is not the mere ceremony; [p. 289] it is the faith that is in it, the faith of the work of God in which I come to my baptism. I may have been baptised when I was young, as most of us have been, but I come to it. God brings me back to it, because it is not real burial to me until I am brought back to it. It is a matter of faith, and faith in the work of God. I have been really buried with Christ, and as He has been raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so shall I. I have got faith about that, but in the meantime I am quickened, like the man in Kings, I am standing on my feet in living affections with Christ. I am quickened with Christ. Correspondence with Christ is the great feature in this chapter.
EHT Would you say that the acceptance is by faith, but the consciousness of it is in the quickening?
JT Yes; they go together.
AMH So in the scripture you referred to in Joshua 3:4, everything was secured when the ark went over Jordan; and you have to go two thousand cubits behind. You recognise the greatness of the Lord as going before; and then it says, “Ye have not passed this way heretofore”. That is a matter for us to take up in divine energy, in a right spiritual state and love for Christ.
JT Then there were things that stood in the way. Naaman says to Elisha, “Then let there ... be given to thy servant two mules’ burden of earth” (2 Kings 5:17). It is really “Of this earth”, the earth on which Elisha stood. Now, that would save Naaman, as he went back to Syria, from mere religious ceremonies. He would be in the light of Elisha’s God and (the earth) the sense of what man is according to the testimony of Elisha. Now here death, burial, resurrection and quickening have fitted me for a new order of things entirely. But there were things that God had ordained, “The law of commandments contained in ordinances” (Ephesians 2:15). These stood against us, and it is a very remarkable thing here that these are also disposed of. I could not get rid of them, of course. The high priest at Jerusalem might bring them to bear on my conscience and say God has ordained these, but this passage says that God Himself has nailed them to the cross. He has taken them out of the way and all principality and power, religious or otherwise, they are all dealt with, so that the believer is free to enter into an entirely new order of things. His conscience is not troubled and his affections are released, so that he might be with God in association with Christ.
RSS You said that burial has become irregular. What was your thought in regard to that?
JT Well, things have become very irregular in [p. 290] the sphere of Christian profession. But what comes out is that the man got down to the bones of Elisha in spite of that.
RSS Is that an illustration of what is true of Christians, that in baptism, accepted by faith, we are brought into touch with Christ and resurrection ensues?
JT Yes, even if things have become very irregular, as they are. The man went down; it is a question of being with Christ. He went down.
HD He went down because Christ went down.
WM And he was quickened by touching the bones of Elisha.
AFM The form is all around us. They all baptise, but there is no power with the form. I was thinking of verse 18 for a moment — that would characterise what belonged to the unburied.
JT Just so. I do not think that the religious systems around us, although they baptise, understand it, nor mean it to be burial at all. But what you get here is that all these things release us. This chapter releases us in mind and affections, and consciously, so that we hold the Head. We “hold fast the head from whom all the body ... increases with the increase of God”.
AMH Do you think that burial would free us from what is authoritative? Circumcision frees us more from what has become a reproach. I was thinking of John 12, how they were free from the natural relationships which to a certain extent excluded the Lord, but they make Him a Supper, and these relationships are no longer mentioned, though each person is there. Lazarus sits at the table, Martha serves, and Mary fills the house with the odour of the ointment. Every one has his place, but in relation to Him now. Do you think burial would make room for [p. 291] that?
JT That is very good. The relationships of nature do not enter into resurrection; they terminate in death.
AFM In Genesis 22 Christ is raised in figure. In chapter 23 Sarah is buried, and in chapter 24 the assembly comes into view. I thought all the natural relationships are buried with Sarah.
JT Sarah’s is the first burial we get in Scripture and I think there is a divine principle in it. Being the progenitress of the family of faith, it was right that her burial should be mentioned as in the light of resurrection.
WM And Sarah is the only woman whose age when she died is told in Scripture. This is, no doubt, an additional honour.
JT Indicating, perhaps, what her life had been to God.
The beginning of chapter 3 is based on chapter 2, “If ye then be risen with Christ ... Set your affection on things above”. I am released; there is not a thing in my way now, not a thing against me. The flesh is disposed of, the world is disposed of, and the religious law that stood out against me is disposed of. I am free to enter on my heavenly portion where Christ is.
WM Nothing but heavenly things now; we are ready for Ephesians.
AMH “The Christ” here suggests that He stands out as the only One before the heart, that particular One.
AFM Does that suggest “The old corn of the land” (Joshua 5:11) being brought in?
JT Quite, that is where we get it; we begin to live on the food of heaven; what is indigenous to heaven. How many of us know what that is, that which belongs to heaven?
Rem It says they “kept the passover” and “They did eat of the old corn of the land on the [p. 292] morrow after the passover ... And the manna ceased on the morrow after they had eaten of the old corn of the land” (Joshua 5:11,12).
JT Yes, the manna does not end on the wilderness side of the Jordan. God supports us right over with the food we have been accustomed to, because you must have food. He says, “Prepare you victuals” (Joshua 1:11). You cannot pass over Jordan without support; you must have food. He supports you right to Gilgal, and then you begin to partake of the old corn of the land. The manna ceases. To be heavenly I have to live on what belongs to heaven. Thus I begin to realise that I am heavenly; for “As is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly” (1 Corinthians 15:48).