EDUCATION FOR EFFECTIVE TESTIMONY (2)
EDUCATION FOR EFFECTIVE TESTIMONY (2)
JT We shall be helped if we see that the privilege of testimony or witness for Christ is within the range of all. In the little maid in chapter 5 it will be seen how every saint may be effective in testimony for Christ. Having this in view, we may see in the preceding chapters how we are to be developed in the light and spirit of the dispensation, so that any witness rendered may be effective. Elisha is a model for us as to the place the Lord must have, if we are to understand different features of the testimony, and if we are to understand how the testimony of God is become possible. All should understand the cost, and be able to render that which is due to God in the way of dignity and power. As the Lord said, “I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued (or clothed) with power from on high” (Luke 24:49). It is due to God that we should understand what these requirements are, so that as vessels, as knowing the testimony, we may be in keeping with it. To be suitable we should be clothed in dignity and power.
WJY Is your thought that the features of this chapter would follow on what we had last night?
JT Yes, including the intervening chapters, particularly chapter 4, which I think develops for us how the Holy Spirit being now here (for we are in the double portion of Elisha) a believer, having the possession of the Spirit, comes into the appreciation of Christ risen, as that chapter indicates, and then also partakes of the heavenly supply. Thus he is qualified to rightly represent God. He is beyond all thought of aspiring to a place among the saints,
[p. 31] because his calling is too great for that — he is set up in heavenly power. He is too great for any such aspiration or distinction that might come to him in the testimony, because of his gift. The little maid, I think, is a type of the witness thus formed.
WJY Although she was small and youthful, there was divine intelligence behind her testimony?
JT Yes, and her remark to her master was an exclamation. It was not a mere reference to a fact — she was impressed — it was an exclamation!
WJY Do you think our gospel preaching should be exclamatory?
JT I think it is a feature — one is impressed with the greatness of the thing. I only say that to indicate what was before one. Chapter 4 is linked on with chapter 2, if we are to be effective witnesses.
GHMcK You refer to the intervening chapters — what about chapter [p. 32] 3?
JT I think it refers to the importance of any good that there may be; grace being established, we should take account of any good even although it may be in questionable associations. The good should be taken account of — there was good in Jehoshaphat. Elisha was very reluctant, and rightly so, to have anything to do with the circumstances but he acceded because of Jehoshaphat. Besides, there is a slight improvement in the king of Israel compared with his father. Grace takes account of every bit of good that there may be. It is the possession of grace, and the sense of the understanding of the magnitude of the reign of grace that enables one to take account of every bit of good there is.
JAB Does Naaman typify a soul in exercise that becomes an object of the testimony?
JT Quite.
GHMcK I was wondering what is the meaning of the water being in abundance at the end of chapter 3.
JT I think it refers to the supply of grace, which rises above the objectionable confederation of the king of Israel, the king of Edom, and the king of Judah, and takes account of Jehoshaphat. There was something good there. God does not ignore evil, but he recognises the good, “Were it not that I regard the presence of Jehoshaphat the king of Judah, etc”. So that, we should take account of whatever good there is in the world, whatever the surroundings, for, as the Lord says, “He that is not against you is for you” (Luke 9:50). When you come to test it out, he may be against you if it is a question of the truth of the assembly, but if it is a question of the gospel, he may be with you, and we can leave it at that.
WMcK Could you tell us the significance of Elisha asking for a minstrel?
JT There was no help in the environment, I think. It was a difficult matter to bring in ministry under such circumstances. The minstrel, I think, would take account of that. It takes peculiar grace to witness in such surroundings, but grace is never wanting, you are never at a loss, the minstrel will supply what the servant needs. So that power came in thus, and a remarkable intervention it was.
GAvS Do you think the presence of Jehoshaphat in that company, in that association, is in any way analogous to the assembly in its broken state upon this earth; that, notwithstanding the conditions, divine grace is towards men?
JT Yes, and there is recognition of the good that there may be around us in these associations.
ALM Taking account of them and identifying oneself with them are two different things, are they not?
JT Yes. I think we ought to go with them in our prayers. It is good to be well established in the apprehension of the position which this book indicates. It is the reign of grace, and according to Luke [p. 33] the preaching must begin at Jerusalem. God rising above evil, it must begin there. Then chapter 4 is the important chapter for every one of us, because it is there that we are furnished. So that one is impressed with what there is, and out of the abundance of his heart he speaks. It would be the epistle to the Romans, and the epistles to the Colossians and the Ephesians, so that it covers a wide field.
WJY Would you develop your reference to these three?
JT Chapter 4 gives you the whole three. I mean you have the oil — the woman pays her debts and lives of the rest — and then you have the great woman, the Shunammite, who is the continuation of the woman who pays her debts and lives, she comes to appreciate the vessel of the testimony. She had no previous knowledge of Elisha, it was a question of discernment. It is one thing to hear about the Lord historically, but it is another to discern who He is. She said to her husband that she discerned that this was a holy man of God. That is an important point to reach, you discern the Lord. And not only that, but she makes provision for him, and her provision is suitable. The room in the wall, the bed, the table, the stool, and the candlestick, are all suitable, so the man of God, as he passes by, turns in. He passes by, it says there; that is what comes out as the truth is understood. The Lord passes by, because now it is a question of coming to know Him. You must come to know Christ. I think in the passing by you should know Him, and it gives you an opportunity to think of Him and provide for Him.
ALM How would you connect this with the epistles you mentioned? Would meeting the debts signify Romans?
JT Yes, the great woman herself is a Roman Christian. She was great in a spiritual way. Then she has the power of discernment, which is of immense [p. 34] importance. He passes by your door. The Lord puts Himself in evidence, “Who do ye say that I am?” (Matthew 16:15). It is a question of your discernment, and not only that, but now you begin to make provision for Christ. He cannot turn in if you have not got everything ready at His disposal.
WJY And all that is suggestive of the work of the Spirit in your soul, and makes us understand what is available in Christ before there is any thought of testimony.
JT Yes. The woman perceives that Elisha is a holy man of God, connected with God. Then the understanding of the Lord in this way as connected with God leads to another thing; the woman had no children, which suggests that you have not produced anything yet. You have paid your debts, and you are living, but what about the continuation of the testimony? She had a husband, but no children. And the man of God inquired what was to be done for her.
GAvS I was thinking what a solemn thing it is for the saints to get to a certain position, and then overlook the importance of being productive, so that there could be that which can take account of the testimony and carry it on in increased power and fulness — that is where the resurrection comes in.
JT She gets a child, but she qualifies beforehand. She qualifies by saying that she dwelt amongst her own people, she did not want to be spoken for to the king. She had her own people, but no children. It is one thing to be among the brethren and to stick to them, but if the testimony is to be continued you must have children. So that she gets the child, but she has got to learn that the testimony is not to be continued on the line of nature. It is to be continued on the line of resurrection.
WJY Is that Colossians?
JT I think so. It is not Christ as He was here [p. 35] after the flesh, it is Christ risen. We have got to learn that.
JAB What is signified by her turning away from Gehazi? She seems to realise that he could not help her in a spiritual way.
JT I think that is spiritual intelligence. Elisha has to come himself. “He stretched himself upon the child; and the flesh of the child waxed warm”. The thought carried through in this chapter, I think, is complete identification with Christ in death. If there is to be representation, there must be identification with Christ. Colossians brings that out — correspondence with Christ in us.
JAB I suppose in the child she had an object for her affections, an answer to her desires that could be carried on in spiritual power?
JT All the exercises she went through and the sorrow were only to qualify her the more. Things after the flesh have to go, so it says, “The child is not awaked”. Gehazi’s effort was not enough. It was not a question of experience, which the staff would suggest; more than that was needed. It continues, “And when Elisha was come into the house, behold, the child was dead, and laid upon his bed. He went in therefore, and shut the door upon them twain, and prayed unto the Lord. And he went up, and lay upon the child, and put his mouth upon his mouth, and his eyes upon his eyes, and his hands upon his hands: and he stretched himself upon the child; and the flesh of the child waxed warm. Then he returned, and walked in the house to and fro; and went up, and stretched himself upon him: and the child sneezed seven times, and the child opened his eyes”. It was a remarkable operation.
RGD Does it speak to us of the travailing exercises of the apostle? “My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you” (Galatians 4:[p. 36] 19).
JT I think it goes deeper than that, because it is a type, I think, of the Lord’s complete identification with us.
ALM Is Elisha here a type of the Lord?
JT I think he is. It shows us how real everything was to the Lord in bringing us into life; how the Lord had to take account of every detail. It is a picture of the Lord taking account of what we were in, and what He went through.
JH Do you say that this is Colossians?
JT I think so. I think it is Christ apprehended as risen, and we risen with Him, “Wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead” (Colossians 2:12).
JH You were speaking just now of children, is it not right for a gospel preacher to look for children and desire them?
JT Surely. Every Christian should have it before him that the testimony has to be continued, and it is only continued in the power of resurrection. It is not to be continued on the line of nature. You train up your children with that in view, not on the line of nature, and you would obtain children through ministry.
JAB Gehazi seems to have an official position, and a place of nearness, and yet is unable to accomplish anything. Do you think that might be amongst us? There might be desires to produce something, and yet while acting in the light of experience there is no power to bring the child to life.
JT I am sure that is so; it was very humiliating to Gehazi to have to admit that the child was yet dead.
GAvS I suppose all this comes under the character of spiritual experience with a view to being efficient in the testimony?
JT Yes, so that now she has got a child; that is another step in the progress of the soul, to apprehend [p. 37] Christ risen from the dead, and you risen with Him.
The next thing is “the great pot”, here the sons of the prophets are again in evidence.
JNB Will you make a little plainer what you mean by believers having children?
JT It is just that you have in view that the testimony is to be continued. If one is not prolific for God, there is something wrong. It should always be kept in mind that the testimony is to be continued.
JNB And you think every believer should be interested, therefore, in this fruitfulness for God.
JT I do indeed, and this chapter is to show you how it comes about. It is not on the line of nature, but on the line of resurrection. Children are to be on the line of resurrection. This chapter is formation, so that the experience of this woman all culminated in the little maid, and qualified her. She was effective, yet obscure.
JAB Paul had a son in Timothy to carry on the testimony effectively.
JT Quite. The difficulty is to hide your identity when you become effective, to retain your obscurity. Effectiveness brings you into prominence in spite of yourself, but to be able to hold yourself in obscurity is the great thing. It requires skill.
Ques That seems to be an important point, will you enlarge a little upon it?
JT I think the secret of it is in this chapter. It is the way God leads you into the life of Christ through His death. You get prominence in His service. No man can be continually effective in the service of God unless he is greater than his service. If he is greater than his service then he is content to be obscure. The Levites are all first-born ones, their greatness is assured. We should get the light of that in our souls. It does not rest on our effectiveness.
[p. 38] It rests on our calling. Even the apostle Paul’s service could not add to that.
JDU Is it from that position that this exclamation bursts forth?
JT I think so. You see how Paul, even in Romans, is moved emotionally. Perhaps the thing we know least about is spiritual emotion. Even in Romans you get it; you also get it in Ephesians.
Ques Were you going to say something about the great pot before you went on to the next chapter?
JT With reference to the great pot, it is a question now of what we have in common. It refers, I think, to what comes into evidence as we go on, but it is a mutual state of things in which we all contribute. The danger with young people, and with all of us, it may be, is of introducing something wild.
AHC Letting our imagination come in, and bringing in things that are not according to the mind of God?
JT Quite so, and we all have to admit our part in that; with the very best intentions you allow your mind to act a bit, and that is bringing in the wild gourds. Anything outside of the Spirit is wild.
JAB The man who brought in the wild gourd desired to help, but he was not intelligent.
JT I suppose if he had listened to Solomon he would have known that it was poisonous. To use it for food was poisonous. Solomon would tell you all about botany, so that you would not be deceived by anything. Apparently, he had good intentions, but the thing was wild. The encouraging feature is that it is not beyond remedy; hence, the great importance of conference among the saints of God, readings, etc. God has blessed them because they give opportunity for correction. Scripture which is inspired of God is profitable for correction, so that the wild gourd is corrected, and you discern the evil in it.
WJY Would it be a practical application [p. 39] of gathering what is wild, the question of our private reading? If we read what is merely interesting to our minds, it might come into the common pot, and have an insidious influence that we little suspect.
JT Brothers who are studious and have access to books are in danger of admitting the principle of philosophy; Colossians deals with this very thing. Philosophy is wild. It may seem plausible, but it is wild and poisonous, so that we have to be on our guard against the activities of our minds. In the book of Proverbs there is training for us, and Solomon reminds us of the man that speaks froward things, and the woman that flatters; and these two are to be avoided. The man that speaks froward things has authority, he speaks philosophically; Colossians urges that that man has to be watched, and a guard set against him. The woman that flatters with her mouth represents the light side of things in the world.
JAB The reading meeting forms an important part preparatory to proper representation.
JT I think it does. It enables us to adjust one another.
WJY If you were asked for a scripture for reading meetings what would you say?
JT I should quote Acts 20:11. Paul conversed after the breaking of bread. Before that there is discourse. Conversation means that others speak besides yourself. So, also, I think John takes account of interchange in his second epistle (verse 12). He was not going to say it all. Mouth to mouth seems to signify mutual contribution. Do you agree with that?
WJY Yes.
JT Acts 20 says that after the breaking of bread they conversed until daybreak. So that the present meeting should be a time of mutual contribution.
Ques What does meal typify here?
JT I think it is the ministry of Christ which is corrective. As Paul says, “Not according to Christ” (Colossians 2:8), and “as therefore ye have received the Christ, Jesus the Lord, walk in him” (Colossians 2:6). What is in the great pot corrects and builds up. The man from Baal-shalisha comes in with what is excess. You have not only meal, you have got the “bread of the firstfruits, twenty loaves of barley, and full ears of corn in the husk thereof”. We are now in the presence of the fresh supply — freshness. We all know what there is about the early yield — there is a relish about it that people seek after. Cold storage things are not to be desired when you can get the fresh things. There is a great deal of cold storage stuff. First comes the bread of the firstfruits, twenty loaves of barley. You are impressed with what is fresh, the very beginning of things, you know. The barley is the first cereal that comes up. It ripens first. It refers to Christ personally, I think. It involves Ephesians.
JAB Does the barley suggest all the strength there is for us in Christ?
JT I think it is the suggestion of starting over again from another spot. From another point of view you really begin in Romans. We begin in Romans from our side, but from God’s side we begin in Ephesians.
RGD Does it include “every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies” (Ephesians 1:2)?
JT I think so. It is brought from there. It says of the virtuous woman that “she bringeth her food from afar” (Proverbs 31:14).
AHC Ruth gleaned in the field of Boaz to get the barley.
JT And she continued until the wheat harvest. The wheat is the saints, I think. The twenty loaves is the abundance of supply. It is not the administrative thought, which is twelve, but twenty. It is more what Christ is Himself. Ephesians is really God’s [p. 41] starting point. Our starting point is Romans. So that the testimony as set out in this world is fully furnished. God sets great store by right furnishing in those who serve — we are to be thoroughly furnished.
ALM Would you say that in Ephesians it is what God has found in Christ; in Romans, what God has found in us, that which has to be removed?
JT Yes, so that in Ephesians it is “the glad tidings of the unsearchable riches of the Christ” (Ephesians 3:8). Ephesians is a letter written from the standpoint of divine counsel. “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ” (Ephesians 1:3).
GAvS I was wondering in regard to Ephesians — there we have the Lord brought before us as brought out of death in the power of God. Would that express the thought of the barley loaves?
JT That is right, and we are to know, “What is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places” (Ephesians 1:19,20). He is in heaven, and one goes out in the fulness of that.
WJY You seem to imply that very much spiritual formation is needed in those who serve.
JT That is exactly what we have to learn, and I believe that if the saints of God had learned it many years ago it would have saved us from very much sorrow. Many undertook service before they really knew Romans. Those who were effective in their service were men who continued on in their toil until they knew Ephesians. Without that furnishing you simply expose yourself to the enemy, because you are sure to fall back on the prominence that your service gives [p. 42] you.
RMY When you speak of furnishing, you are not speaking of gift, are you?
JT It is not that yet, but Ephesians gives you that, too. That is where you get it. Ephesians renders you greater than your gift. Thus you use it according to its relative value, and you see that it is for the edification of the saints.
JDU You said near the beginning that all of us can have a part in this.
JT That is what we see in the little maid.
ALM What you were saying just now about service is borne out in Mark 3, where it says the Lord called unto Him whom He would, and of them He chose twelve that they might be with Him, that He might send them to preach.
Ques Would it be right to say that before service, lessons must be learned through following Christ?
JT That is what Elisha sets out. We have to receive the Spirit and then see the relation of the Spirit to that. Chapter 4 shows you what the Spirit is to you. You are furnished and sustained now from heaven.
JAB I often wonder why this little maid so completely disappears: she had been formed for the purpose of testimony for God, and speaks in power, and then nothing more is recorded of her.
JT She is brought in here to represent the result of chapter 4. The Scriptures are always constructive; incidents are not thrown together promiscuously. So chapter 4 is to form us for effective service. The little maid was effective in obscurity. There is not the slightest evidence of any national resentment in her because of her captivity. If I am governed by national influence or feelings, I cannot represent heaven.
GAvS I suppose she shows in that way that she is one of the family of God, because she has [p. 43] those characteristics.
JSB We can think of the little maid as one who had no gift, but who had an impression.
JT It is not a question of preaching here, but of speaking, the outcome of being impressed.
RGD Where do the servants come in who subsequently speak to Naaman?
JT As the work of God proceeds all that is necessary for its completion comes into evidence. It is wonderful how things come in to help us where God is working.
AJL What do you call service? What this little maid did here?
JT She was impressed by the greatness of the position. She knew what Elisha could do, and she did not keep it to herself.