Reading 2—Tuesday afternoon
A.J.G. We are considering the activities of God that have His rest as the objective. As we have already seen this morning, the Lord said that the sabbath was on account of man. When God sanctified the sabbath, He had man before Him, as well as having His own pleasure before Him. We read in Exodus 31: 17 that He rested on the seventh day and was refreshed. All this is very touching when we remember that God had man before Him. Proverbs 8 shows that He possessed wisdom before He even began an activity. It is said in verse 22 of Proverbs 8, “Jehovah possessed me [wisdom] in the beginning of his way, before his works of old”, that is, before He even began any activity, He possessed wisdom. It says: “I was set up from eternity”, or, as it is noted in the footnote, ‘anointed’, so that God possessed wisdom in all that He wanted to bring forth. I believe that the expression of divine wisdom was first to be seen in the incarnation, that is, how One of the Godhead came into manhood condition, and then in how the Holy Spirit came to dwell in man. I believe that these two things are the great expression of divine wisdom. Others, of course, are related to wisdom, as followed up in the epistle to the Romans, chapters 9-11. But I believe that the wisdom of God is seen in a special way in these two wonderful movements of these two Persons of the Godhead. This is what verse 30 of Proverbs 8 says: “then I was by him his nursling”, which implies a special object of affection, which we see in Christ as becoming Man. The other meaning, however, is also ‘artist’, or ‘artificer’, which is a remarkable suggestion of the Spirit, as it seems to me. So this morning we saw how the Son is predominant in what we had before us. He is the Son of man ‘lifted up’, and He is the only begotten Son of God. But in this chapter 4 (John 4), the Spirit is now predominant. All this is in view of the fact that man is brought to the true knowledge of God and made capable of responding to it in accordance with God.
E.E.P. Would you say that it is then mainly the work of the Spirit to make us children of wisdom?
A.J.G. Yes, I think so. All that God is working out in men He is doing through His Spirit. That is why we should become very familiar with the Holy Spirit, because God works with us in line with what is of the Spirit.
E.E.P. Thus, the effectiveness of the Lord here towards the woman is quite different from what we have seen this morning.
A.J.G. Yes, it is very different from what we had this morning. This morning we had a man who had a great religious reputation, and the Lord introduces to him that which seems very deflating, that there would not even be hope for such a person if he were not born again. But with this woman who had a bad reputation, the Lord mentions what morally cleanses her and then makes her a worshipper of God.
C.deK.F. I thought of verse 4. It is different here than in the third chapter, where the man came to Him. It says: “he must needs pass through Samaria”.
A.J.G. The Lord makes Himself available in His movements to a person in whom God works. In chapter 3 we see how one came to Him. This chapter introduces Him as the One by whom God had worked or was going to work. For the first time He made Himself available where the woman usually went; He was sitting by the well.
C.deK.F. It is as if we have a connection here between the work of the Lord as the Son of God and the Holy Spirit.
A.J.G. It is very touching that we always find perfect agreement between the divine Persons in their activities.
W.Schr. This shows the word: “And he must needs pass through Samaria”.
A.J.G. Yes, quite so. In chapter 3 the Son of man had to be lifted up, and now He had to pass through Samaria.
E.E.P. This “must needs” is for us.
A.J.G. It refers to a woman.
W.Schr Is it not also related to the rest of God?
A.J.G. Without a doubt, because this woman is important, and every single one that the Father draws to Christ is important.
A.S.T. Is it not interesting that Jesus, the Spirit, the Father and God are all mentioned together in this chapter?
A.J.G. It is indeed very interesting. This shows that with such a person as this woman, the Lord has it before Him that she should be brought into the greatest privilege: she should become a worshipper of the Father and a worshipper of God in spirit and truth.
A.S.T. Does it include that the woman should be a vessel in which the Spirit dwells?
A.J.G. Yes, that is just before us, namely that each individual should become a vessel of the Spirit, and then the assembly as a whole should also be a vessel of the Spirit.
E.E.P. The idea of rest is an indication of what is eternal? It is the sixth hour here, and there were five men she had, “and he whom now thou hast is not thy husband”, he was the sixth; with the seventh man we should get to the thought of rest.
A.J.G. Quite so, that is what we were looking at this morning—finality; this gospel has been written that we may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that we may have life in His name. In all the glory associated with Christ, the Son of God, we should find life, and that is truly finality with God.
P.Sch. Can you say something about Jesus sitting down at the well? Then He says: “If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that says to thee (v 10), and then in verse 14: “… become in him a fountain of water”.
A.J.G. Well, the Lord sat at the well, and He sat there “wearied”. This is something very touching, that He had assumed a condition in which He knew exactly what it meant to be wearied. I believe that this should win our confidence. Although He is God in His Person, He comes so close to us as a Man in a condition that He knew exactly what fatigue meant. That is why this should encourage us to have to do with Him, with Him who, according to experience, knows exactly what our experiences are. With Him, of course, everything was without sin. But then He speaks to the woman and says, “If thou knewest the gift of God”. He refers to the Spirit as the great gift that God has for man, and He speaks in such a way that He directs her interest so that she would like to have this gift, and then He shows her what this gift looks like: that on the one hand this gift would provide complete satisfaction, so that the person receiving the gift will not thirst forever, and on the other hand, the Spirit in such a person becomes a spring of water that springs up into eternal life. This is one of the things that God has before Him, to ensure that we have this springing up. There was a time when there were no depths and no springs, abounding with water, but now in chapter 3 the depths have come, in the distance into which the Son of God has been. Now in this chapter springs, abounding with water, come to light, which characterise one by spontaneous springing up in answer to God.
Ques. Does not the Lord refer here to His own Person, the last Adam a quickening spirit?
A.J.G. That is so. This is a very interesting scripture because it speaks of Christ as a man. He is the last Adam, but He is a quickening spirit. Thus the spiritual is very much emphasised in all these things, and we will have spiritual bodies.
E.B. Can you say a little more about the 14th verse: “... shall become in him a fountain of water, springing up into eternal life”?
A.J.G. Well, the Lord has it in His mind that worshippers should be won, those who worship in spirit and truth. Now, worship has no value at all if it does not come spontaneously on its own initiative. In the religious world around us we find what is called ‘divine worship’, but it does not come of its own accord, it is formal. But God looks for what comes of its own accord, what comes out of the believers, swelling from within, and it is to bring forth this that the Holy Spirit has been given.
E.B. And what is the connection that it springs up into eternal life?
A.J.G. It connects us to what lies beyond death. Eternal life is depicted in the land of Canaan of old, it was on the other side of the Jordan, they had to cross the Jordan to reach it. And eternal life is for us that which lies on the other side of death; but the believer already knows it in the power of the Spirit.
K.H. You also spoke earlier, in regarding the woman in John 4, of the vessel which is the assembly. Is this to be associated with the “great sheet, bound by the four corners” in Acts 10: 11? Is the woman to be regarded as one of “the quadrupeds and creeping things of the earth” whom God has cleansed, and that Peter was asked to slay and eat?
A.J.G. Yes, that is so. It has often been said that John does not formally mention the assembly in his gospel, but he secures the personnel who make up the assembly. And this woman was an exemplary person to participate in the assembly.
E.E.P. Would you say that it is up to us whether we reach the seventh hour very quickly, for it says in verse 21: “the hour is coming”, and in verse 23: “But the hour is coming and now is”?
A.J.G. The term “hour” is very often found in John’s writings, and usually refers to a time marked by something special. When the Lord says, “But the hour is coming and now is”, He has before Himself this present time of the Spirit, which is marked by God securing the worship He looks for—worship in spirit and in truth.
E.E.P. The hour certainly indicates that which is eternal; it always helps us to see what passes quickly.
A.J.G. Yes, but in Christianity it has extended to two thousand years, that is, it is a perfect period of time, marked by one thing, and much concentrated action is associated with it. The formation of the assembly is a wonderful divine work containing an innumerable multitude of persons, and yet the work of God in them is so perfect that we have as the final result the whole fulness of Christ, where nothing is missing and nothing is superfluous.
A.S.T. The note in the passage we have read in Proverbs 8 points to Song of Songs 7: 1, to “The work of the hands of an artist”. Does this relate to the work of the Spirit?
A.J.G. I think that is the case. It refers to a complete work, characterized by skilfulness and beauty.
C.de.K.F. I wondered if we see this here with the woman, because her answer comes so fast, she is moving so fast, and you do not see that with Nicodemus.
A.J.G. She did not have as much to lose as he did. He had a great reputation, and all that had to disappear. She had only a bad reputation, and it was a great relief for her to be freed from it.
C.de.K.F. She was despised by the Jews.
A.J.G. Yes.
W.Schr. And then the Lord speaks to her about worship.
A.J.G. If we want to become worshippers, then everything must be morally right with us. As soon as she showed that she had an interest in what the Lord presented to her, the Lord put His finger on the mystery of her life. Because if something is wrong with us, morally speaking, then we cannot be worshippers. The Spirit can never support us in untruthfulness.
T.B. She was satisfied that she was exposed.
A.J.G. Yes, she was satisfied that everything was exposed.
O.D. Was it an hour of love for both persons, with Nicodemus and now also with the woman?
A.J.G. Yes, they both came into the presence of One who loved them and who opened up to them the thoughts of divine love.
D.Pf. Would you say that this morning we had, “we speak that which we know” and now, “we worship what we know”?
A.J.G. That is why it is so important that we know the Father and know the Lord, and also know the Spirit, because the question of our worship of the Spirit has arisen, and how this enters the service of the assembly in an appropriate way. Later in the gospel, we will come to the way the Spirit is remarkably presented as the Comforter. This is a very personal representation of the Spirit, which is to provoke worship in us.
E.B. Can I come back to verse 19: “Sir, I see that thou art a prophet”, said the woman. Was that a prophetic word? Does the prophetic word lead to such exposure?
A.J.G. The prophetic word brings us the mind of God, and it always exposes, of course, when there is something that needs to be exposed. So this morning we had that “the word of God is living and operative, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and penetrating to the division of soul and spirit, both of joints and marrow, and a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. And there is not a creature unapparent before him”, Heb 4: 12, 13. This woman had to feel that here. That is why she later says He “told me all things I had ever done”. It is good that everything is exposed, for this will not only bring liberty as a result, but it also means that we come into intimate contact with Christ, because He presents Himself as the one who has given Himself, so that all that is exposed may be taken away forever.
W.Schr. Was that a liberation for her? Because she went to the people and said, “He told me all things I had ever done”.
A.J.G. Yes, that is so. This is something that leads to liberty, that is, that everything is brought out before God.
H.Mö. Did the grace of God bring this about?
A.J.G. Yes, it is the grace of God that allows us to bring everything to light without being condemned by it. Therefore it is stated in chapter 1: 17: “For the law was given by Moses: grace and truth subsists through Jesus Christ”.
E.E.P. The woman stands here in the foreground. It is said only briefly in brackets about the disciples that they went away to buy food. They thought of food and did not know what the Lord’s needs were. He said to the woman, “Give me to drink”, and He probably detected that she might give it to Him; at least it is this question that He touches on with her.
A.J.G. Yes, the Lord found food by doing the will of the Father. This one was a person that the Father had given Him and drawn to Him. Thus every individual who is drawn to Christ is valued by Him in this light.
Ques. Is there a certain sovereignty, but also a responsibility in that it says: “whosoever drinks of the water which I shall give him”?
A.J.G. It is the grace and love of God that this has been made available to us, but we are responsible, we are to appropriate it. But the Lord seems to emphasise here how important it is that we are dealing with Him personally. Therefore He says, “If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that says to thee, Give me to drink, thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water”. And afterwards the woman says to the people, “Come, see a man who told me all things I had ever done”. It is then said that they went out of the city and came to Him. So the Lord does not meet the need at a great distance; although various miracles show that He was able to do so; He pours out this blessing being near to the persons.
E.E.P. Is this language in verse 11: “the well is deep”, the language of all those who have not come into this area of blessing? I am now thinking of those in the systems—or is it also an indication of one’s own activities in them, while we are seeing here what depth means in relation to the activity of God or the activity of the Spirit?
A.J.G. Yes; the well was deep, so you had to do a lot of work to produce only a little water. This is true of the world’s offerings in terms of refreshment. But since the Holy Spirit is given, He becomes a spring of living water in the believers—the source is what God has put in his heart.
E.E.P. And then there is no drying up.
A.J.G. No.
A.S.T. Do you think that the danger is that we are so slow in leaving Jacob’s well?
A.J.G. You mean that we are very slow to leave what the world wants to offer us, while the Lord told the woman that she herself should become a vessel of the Spirit?
A.S.T. He says, “… become in him …”—as if there is a certain development here, if we give room to the Spirit.
A.J.G. This is something very important, because here is the source that God has placed in us, but then there is also the well in which the spring rises.
W.M. Was the story similar to David’s? He was also told everything he had done.
A.J.G. What are you referring to with David?
W.M. He was in the dark at first. “When I kept silence, my bones waxed old”. And when he came into the light of God, sin was forgiven him.
A.J.G. You are quoting from Psalm 32.
W.M. Yes, it was just mentioned that for the woman it was a special grace that she was told this, and so it was also that the grace of God was told to David, otherwise he would have remained in the consuming state for even longer. He was told, “Thou art the man”, 2 Sam 12: 7.
A.J.G. God sent Nathan to David. Nathan was very skilful, but he was also worried about David. Therefore, before he told David what God had commanded him to say, Nathan produced something, one could call it a parable, so that David himself had to say that this man who had done this was worthy of death. That is why David condemned himself before he knew that he had done it himself. When Nathan then said, “Thou art the man”, the matter suddenly became perfectly clear to David. Then Nathan could say what God had commanded him to say; but first he had to bring out in David the state which would immediately receive what God had to say to him. It is very interesting to look at this incident carefully, because you can see that the first part of what Nathan tells David is not what God commanded Nathan to say. It is something that Nathan himself says in his affection for David, and the result is that a state has been brought about in David, that he immediately accepts what God had to say to him through the prophet.
E.E.P. We often do it in a completely different way, and there is little recovery. But if we go ahead on the line as you have just said, then restorations are possible.
A.J.G. Yes. But we are now going back to the point of the source. The thought is that there is the source that God is offering; but then the well must also be dug, that is, everything that prevents the water from welling freely must be removed. This is always necessary with us when we have received the Spirit, for what prevents the free movements of the Spirit in us must be removed.
C.deK.F. I thought perhaps one can speak here in two ways of the movements of the Spirit; first the woman was morally cleansed, she was freed from moral impurity, and then she was also freed from the religious world as it is represented here by Jerusalem, as well as by the Jews who are mentioned.
A.J.G. She is now beginning to talk about the right place of worship. People often talk about it when you start talking to them. But the Lord seems to set it all aside and say, that the most important thing is that persons are secured as worshippers.
E.O. Did the woman come into complete liberty? She left the water pot.
A.J.G. Yes. But she has come to appreciate that Christ is the Head that is destined for man. She had six men, but now God wanted her to be freed from the influence of all six men and brought under the influence of Christ. She shows that she saw this, because she says to the men, “is not he the Christ?” that is, Christ as the appointed Head for man.
E.B. Why does the Lord make a difference in verse 23 and 24 in terms of worship in spirit and in truth, once He mentions the Father and then God?
A.J.G. In spirit stands in contrast to everything formal and religious, and in truth shows that everything must be true, that moral conditions must be right. We have the two thoughts, first the worship of the Father and then the worship of God. The worship of God is the final thought, but the worship of the Father is on the way there. The knowledge of the Father puts us in complete freedom and we are then at rest. We are not in bondage or standing afar off, even if we are dealing with God. For God has accepted the name of Father.
H.M. Do we not also see an increase from the Father to God?
A.J.G. Yes, the Lord mentions this in John 20: “I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God”. Therefore God is the final thought, and the worship of God is the final thought from man’s side. But the knowledge of the Father brings us into freedom.
E.B. So on Lord’s days, when we worship God, the final thought is reached?
A.J.G. Yes, that is the final thought.
Rem. Does the term Father relate to His love in activity by the Son?
A.J.G. Yes, He is known as a Father in relation to the Son, and then the Son brings us in alongside of Himself, and therefore He says, “My Father, and your Father”.
E.E.P. You mentioned John 20, and here is already a hint of that in all that has been said to the woman. But the woman says nothing of these high thoughts, but she says only, “a man who told me all things I had ever done”. Does it need time for this to be fully developed?
A.J.G. She probably did not notice what was included in it. Every individual must first of all be brought to terms with moral matters. As we come to see Christ as our Head we can see how we can be practically freed from lawlessness. I am not talking about Christ as the Head of the assembly, I am talking about Christ as the Head of every man. We hold Him together and also individually as our Head, so that we are then freed from lawlessness. It says, “Whoever abides in him, does not sin”, 1 John 3: 6.
E.E.P. Is this the state in which we can arrive at all these thoughts in terms of rest?
A.J.G. That is right. It is very interesting when we think of the ways of God that when He brought in the human race, He did it on the principle of birth, and of generations, and of families. That was not the case with the angels. Each angel, as far as we know, has been created individually. In the case of angels, we do not have the concept of birth, or of generations, or of families. But man has grown up and has become accustomed to the concepts of father and son and children and family and so on. God had before Himself in all this the desire to bring man into relation to Himself. Therefore, when the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, He was seen as One who had a glory as of an only-begotten with a Father. This has been brought on to view.
W.E. It is said that God will be all in all, is that the ultimate thought?
A.J.G. Yes, that is the final thought: “God all in all”, that is, how God is known by us as Father and Son and Holy Spirit in the Economy into which He has come.
A.S.T. Is there a further thought in this chapter when it says: “the Father” and “God” to John 20: “my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God”?
A.J.G. Do you think that the Lord refers here to the Father, without referring to those who are connected to Him?
A.S.T. Yes.
A.J.G. Would you say a little more about it?
A.S.T. I thought, “my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God”, refers to God in His relationships with us. We must always acknowledge that while the assembly has the most unique and greatest place, it is not everything, and God should be known as Father and God throughout the world.
A.J.G. Yes, every family is named by the Father so that every family gets an impression of the Father. This shows, I think, that it is pleasing to God to be known in a presentation of love throughout the universe, and I believe that the secret of this is that every family is brought together under Christ as the Head, who is the beloved Son of the Father. That is why the whole system is one of love: the Father is the supreme One, the beloved Son as the centre and object of His love, and all the families are brought together under Him as the head. Did you think so?
A.S.T. Yes, I thought so.
E.E.P. Can we say that the content of verse 24 should touch us very much, because it is told to us by One who knew it best and understood how to express it that way?
A.J.G. Yes, God is a spirit. That is something, I think, that we should think very much about; and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth. There is no reason why we should not be marked by truth in all our movements, and since we have the Holy Spirit, we can rise up to God in a spontaneous way.
E.B. When the woman speaks of the Christ and the Lord answers her, “I who speak to thee am he”, I also thought of the similar word in John 9. Does this also have a connection with Romans 8? Is this position not a position of Romans 8?
A.J.G. Here in chapter 4, the Lord reveals Himself to the woman as the Christ. In chapter 9, the Lord reveals Himself to the man born blind as the Son of God. This is how the truth is developed; we really come to Christ, the Son of God.
P.Sch. Does all this include verse 10, “the gift” and “who it is”?
A.J.G. Yes, the gift of God refers to the Spirit, and “who it is” is, of course, the Son of God. What else were you thinking about?
P.Sch. We must have the Spirit to know Christ and the Father and God.
A.J.G. Quite so. That is why we have the Son in chapter 3 and the Spirit in chapter 4. We see how divine wisdom works so that man is brought into the knowledge of God in a complete way and is also fully able to give an answer to God.
E.E.P. Does this chapter show us how the Holy Spirit becomes the real effective power in us in relation to being born again?
A.J.G. Yes, the Holy Spirit is the One who is active in the new birth, but here it is of course more than the new birth. The Holy Spirit works in the believer, that is, He dwells in Him and brings the glory of Christ to our hearts, and also the glory of the Father as He is known in Christ. Then He also becomes the power so that a response is springing up in us.
E.E.P. What is brought before us in John 4 is to find an answer in us.
A.J.G. Yes, quite so, and I believe that the more we think of these things, the more we realise that God is the source of all that He does for Himself, either in Christ or in the Spirit. He Himself is the source of what He desires to secure in man.
C.deK.F. Do we get the thought of these activities of God in the word: “the Father seeks such”?
A.J.G. Yes. But God does not need to go outside Himself to bring His own thoughts to fruition. Therefore it is said: “of him, and through him, and for him are all things”, Rom 11: 36.
A.B. Is that so in Genesis, that God first created heaven and then the earth?
A.J.G. Quite so. Please continue.
A.B. I thought about it because it provided the environment for man whom God had in His mind.
A.J.G. That is what I think, and heaven was probably created so that we might know that God stands infinitely above us in all His thoughts and ways. Therefore it is said in Isaiah 55: 9: “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts”. I believe that the heavens and the earth were created in a way to help us become worshipful in our thoughts of God.
W.E. God gave the people of Israel water springs. Does this indicate the Spirit?
A.J.G. Yes. The land was full of springs of water. The other image used for the Spirit is that of a stream. A stream is always fresh, a stream never stops. Thus the things of God are intended to impress us with constant freshness.
E.E.P. Verse 14 states: “for ever”. Is that an indication of how the Lord Himself will deal with us in eternity?
A.J.G. Well, it is not exactly eternity, but eternal life. But you probably thought of “shall never thirst for ever”; that is, we are completely satisfied, in time and eternity we all find our satisfaction in God.
E.E.P. I thought that when the Lord said this, He would have had the rest before Him.
O.D. Do we find the whole nature of God contained in it? For God is love in His nature and as such, has revealed Himself as Father and Son and Spirit.
A.J.G. Yes. We know God in the way He made Himself known, that is, in the Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. This is the wise way in which love has come to creature man.
W.E. There is also a stream in the heavenly city. Rev 22: 1.
A.J.G. “A river of water of life”, Rev 22: 1. Psalm 65: 9 says “the river of God is full of water”.
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