Reading 3—Wednesday morning
John 5: 17-30; 6: 37-40; 51-69
A.J.G. We have had before us the activities of God in relation to the rest of God, and we have noted the words of the Lord Jesus that the sabbath was for man; that is, rest by His sanctifying, which of course had the Lord’s own pleasure in view, and also that God desired that man should share in His rest. The writer of the epistle to the Hebrews refers especially in chapter 3 and 4 to the fact that the saints should know what it means to enter into the rest of God in the present time. He is very anxious because He says, “To-day, if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts”, Heb 4: 7. Yesterday morning we saw that the Son is the Son of man, who was lifted up on the cross, that everyone who believes in Him should not be lost, but should have eternal life. Yesterday afternoon we saw the Holy Spirit as the power, which practically frees us from the power of the flesh and enables us to be worshippers.
Chapter 5, which we have read, especially brings the Father before us. The Lord indicates that the Father is supreme, and that He Himself, the Son, could do nothing of Himself except what He saw the Father doing. The Father, on the other hand, did not hold anything back from the Son, but showed Him all that He did. Thus it was a great concern of the Lord to show that the works which He did were the works of the Father, and that the words which He spoke were also the words of the Father. So He wanted the Father to be the greatest in our minds. But He also introduces Him in this chapter as the One who raises and brings the dead to life, that is, the Father is seen as the One who exercises the power of the resurrection. Therefore, even in chapter 11, when the Lord brought Lazarus out of the sepulchre, we see that He prayed to the Father before He did so, and said, “… on account of the crowd who stand around I have said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me”; that is, the Lord was concerned that the Father should have supremacy in all that He did.
C.deK.F. Why do you think John mentions the two thoughts in verse 18: “because he had not only violated the sabbath, but also said that God was his own Father”, as if he were bringing together these two thoughts, the sabbath and equality with the Father?
A.J.G. These were two things that brought about the hostility of the Jews. According to their way of thinking, the Lord continually violated the sabbath because He exposed their system as formal and without life. But they also acknowledged that the Lord’s speaking of the Father in the way He did included that He Himself was a divine Person. How much the Lord spoke and did in the presence of hostility is very striking in the gospel of John, and this emphasises the vitality of life, for the power of life cannot be denied.
E.E.P. Does verse 19 in chapter 5 give us an idea of how this wonderful system of divine activity is worked out and how it should affect us?
A.J.G. Yes, it is remarkable how the Lord maintained the appropriate position for the place He had taken as a man. Therefore He did nothing in independence from the Father, but in everything He said and did, He wanted to leave an impression of the Father.
E.O. Did He say, as a boy at the age of twelve, “did ye not know that I ought to be occupied in my Father’s business”, Luke 2: 49?
A.J.G. It shows that the Lord was devoted from the very beginning to the will of His Father and His glory. It is as if we should understand that the Lord wants the Father to be supreme in our thoughts. That is why the Father judges no one, even if God judges. We have come “to God, judge of all” (Heb 12: 23), as it is said, but nevertheless the Father, in the order of this Economy, hands over all judgment to the Son, so that there is no thought of judgment with the name of the “Father”.
E.E.P. When the Lord Jesus Himself says in verse 17, “My Father worketh hitherto”, He does not set aside the work of the Father, but we come here to a wonderful expansion of the activity of divine Persons in order to achieve in a greater way this thought of rest that you have before you, and this wonderful addition is made, “and I work”.
A.J.G. Yes, the fact that the Lord speaks of the Father as being active shows, as you say, that rest has not yet been reached; for the Father is working, and the Son is working, in view of conditions in which God can rest, and in those that man can rest with Him.
A.S.T. What does Jesus refer to when He says, “My Father worketh hitherto”?
A.J.G. The Father worked in the souls of men. That may go back to the beginning, to the fall, I do not know.
E.E.P. Does it also reveal wonderfully what divine Persons know of each other?
A.J.G. Yes, there is no difference in thought or outlook between the Father and the Son and the Spirit, nor is there any independent action.
C.deK.F. I would like to ask what it means here, where the Lord says, “save whatever he sees the Father doing”? He sees what the Father is doing. Is this what is being dealt with in the gospel of John?
A.J.G. It shows how the Lord was completely dependent in His movements and in His activities. He was on guard, so to speak, in relation to what the Father was doing, and moved in accordance with it. But He seems to be leading everything to the great thought that the Father raises the dead and quickens them. This shows that the world of life in which God can find His rest lies on the other side of death. We are very slow to accept it even if we accept the truth of it.
A.S.T. I would like to know whether the activities in this sense did not already extend to the previous dispensation; and then did the Lord and the Spirit work in this dispensation to bring to light the complete work of God, which then leads to rest?
A.J.G. Surely that must be the case. It is quite clear that the Father could not rest until He had come to finality regarding Christ and the assembly.
E.B. Can you say something more about what lies on the other side of death?
A.J.G. We saw yesterday that God worked on the line of what is spiritual: “that which is born of the Spirit is spirit”. God is a spirit. We are not yet fully spiritual, even though we also have a spirit and God has given us His Holy Spirit; but at the moment we are not completely in a spiritual state. But the natural state must be set aside so that a spiritual state can be brought forth. It is said in 1 Corinthians 15 “that which is spiritual was not first, but that which is natural, then that which is spiritual”. This is figuratively presented to us in the fact that the land of promise was on the other side of the Jordan, and they had to cross the Jordan to reach this land. This means accepting death as the end of all that belongs to the natural.
E.O. Do we have this in John 12 in Bethany?
A.J.G. Yes, there was the dead man Lazarus, whom Jesus had raised from the dead. Lazarus had died to all that Bethany represented as a place. But he lived with Christ as one out of death.
D.Pf. Do we have an example of this in Ephesians: “Wake up, thou that sleepest, and arise up from among the dead, and the Christ shall shine upon thee”, Eph 5: 14?
A.J.G. I think that goes further than any relationship with the old man. It is something to judge the flesh, but something else to accept death in relation to the natural. Of course, we still have to allow the natural while we are here, so we cannot remove it completely, but the spiritual should have the first place with us.
W.E. Mr Raven writes about the more we have divine Persons before us, the more we could or would increase in true knowledge.
A.J.G. And then we see what the objective is. Thus the Father, through His own glory, raised Christ from the dead, and all that the Father can find His pleasure in is now on the other side of death in Christ. The Spirit has come from Christ in glory, so that through the Spirit we may have life in Christ and also live in relation to things that are above.
A.S.T. In this connection, would you help us about the difference between raising the dead and quickening?
A.J.G. The raising of the dead brings them to a whole new ground, but quickening means that they also live there.
A.S.T. Is quickening connected with the development of the spiritual?
A.J.G. I think that is right. I think it is important that we always remember what the Lord says here, that the Father judges no one, and that He has given all judgment into the hands of the Son. One reason is that they all honour the Son as they honour the Father. The Father makes sure that the Son should not lack honour by becoming a man. But then it is still important that no thought of judgment should be associated with the name of Father. The character of the Father is stamped on the whole world of blessings that God will bring forth, it is pure grace.
E.E.P. Is it your thought that you have with the Father the thought of rest? “For the Father himself has affection for you” (John 16: 27), but it takes the work of the Son to bring us on to the right ground to enjoy it, and it takes the activity of the Holy Spirit to be sustained and to enter into rest.
A.J.G. Yes, chapter 6 presents the Lord as food to us, that is, spiritual life can only be preserved among us on the basis of the principle of nourishment by the living bread that has come down from heaven. But in chapter 6: 63, the Lord says, “It is the Spirit which quickens, the flesh profits nothing”. That is why we are dependent on the Spirit to value the living bread and to appropriate it.
E.E.P. We not only receive these glorious thoughts from God in relation to His intentions regarding His rest, but also all the activities of divine Persons so that each one of us can come into that rest.
A.J.G. Yes, that is right.
A.B. May we also think of Luke 15: 24: “for this my son was dead and has come to life, was lost and has been found”?
A.J.G. Say something more, please.
A.B. I wanted to ask if this was one of those of whom it says, “whom he will” (v 21)?
A.J.G. Quite so, we can see that God rests in a scene of life, and one of the Godhead has become Man, so that we may have life in Him. We have no part in Godhead, but we share in the life of a Man who is God in His Person. He has brought about a way of life as a Man that is excellent, and through the Spirit we are part of this life. In the present time we are sustained by nourishing ourselves from the living bread that has come down from heaven.
P.Sch. Is it the same as what we have in 1 John 4? There it speaks of completion in terms of rest, and it goes on to say: “as he is, we also are in this world”?
A.J.G. Yes. Therefore there is no fear in love, as it is said. We know that, as He is, we too are in this world.
P.Sch. Is this the completion in the rest that God has before Himself?
A.J.G. Yes, we can say these are final conditions.
O.D. Why does the Lord use the words, “Verily, verily” mostly twice, when everything He speaks is true?
A.J.G. Yes, but the Lord would like to emphasise this for us. When the Lord says, “Verily, verily”, He is pointing out something He wants to impress us with in a special way.
O.D. Is this like an oath?
A.J.G. Yes, there is such a thing. The Lord thus emphasises the truth that He brings to light.
C.deK.F. Why does verse 51 state that the Lord said, “the bread withal which I shall give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world”?
A.J.G. The Lord had a world before Him. God had a world before Him; in Genesis 1 we see how He called living souls into existence, first those that swam in the water, then those that flew in the air, and finally cattle and beasts of the earth, so that there was a great world of life in infinite variety; and then He brought forth man, male and female, and set them over the whole position, over this whole world, that they might represent God in all creation, and to keep all creation under the influence of man for the pleasure of God. The Lord speaks of a world in this way here.
C.deK.F. One has a wonderful impression of the greatness of what was before the Lord in His service.
A.J.G. That is why everyone who is drawn to Christ is included in this world. Living souls are gathered to have a part in this world in which God rests.
E.E.P. And the heavens give colour to this world, because here in this chapter 6 it is very often said: “from heaven”.
A.J.G. It is living bread from heaven. “I am the living bread which has come down out of heaven”, the Lord says.
D.Pf. Why is the thought of the voice brought in here in this chapter regarding divine activities?
A.J.G. At the beginning of this chapter we see the man lying by the pool and the Lord speaking to him. The Lord did not touch him. In many miracles the Lord touched the person in question, but in this case He did not, it was about the power of the voice. I believe the Lord showed how souls are quickened through the voice of the Son of God. Then the Lord said in verse 25 that the hour is coming and now that the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and which they that have heard shall live. I believe that this has come about in our souls in a moral way, that the Son of God went into death to bring in the testimony of God’s love, and that has brought us to life.
W.E. The Lord has brought life and incorruptibility to light. Is this what it is?
A.J.G. Yes, in Himself He has brought life and incorruptibility beyond death to light, and we share in it through the Spirit. Thus we are incorruptible to the extent that we remain in Christ. Soon we will have incorruptible conditions in our bodies, but at the moment we can abide in Him through the Spirit, who has proved Himself to be the incorruptible One. The temptation in the wilderness showed that in the Person of Jesus there was a Man who could never be corrupted.
A.S.T. Is life in verse 26 being traced to its source? “For even as the Father has life in himself, so he has given to the Son also to have life in himself”; and He gives us life.
A.J.G. I think that is the idea. Thus, life is traced back to its origin, as you said. It is wonderful language that the Lord uses here, that He could say that the Father also gave the Son to have life in Himself. It is part of the construction of this Economy that one of the Godhead has accepted the condition as a man, so that He should have life in Himself as a Man; and that is why He can give life to those the Father has given Him.
H.G. Can we bring in the verse here that our life is hid with the Christ in God?
A.J.G. I believe hidden with Christ in God is in our life in the present time. It is not known to the world. At this moment, Christ is withdrawn from the view of the world, and we find our lives in the assembly. It is in things that are morally above, and it is hidden with the Christ in God.
A.S.T. There is no degeneration in life, because it comes to us. But we are elevated into life itself.
A.J.G. Yes, that is so.
E.E.P. Can one bring in the verse that says that we live by faith, not by sight, and faith comes through hearing?
A.J.G. Well, everything in Christianity is in faith, but life is through the Spirit.
P.Sch. Would verse 23 of Romans 6, link with this where it says, “but the act of favour of God, eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord”?
A.J.G. This is also very much before us here, because eternal life is something that we enjoy in the present moment, it is enjoyed in the Spirit in the present time.
E.B. Can you say something about chapter 6: 40? as to my Father’s will? The Lord had nothing but the will of His Father before Him, as we also see in chapter 5.
A.J.G. All that the Father has before Him, and wants to secure for His world, He has given to the Son, and the Son brings about the full answer to His objective. He presents Himself as food for our souls to be sustained, and He raises us up on the last day. Therefore everything is handed over to the Son, so that He can bring it through.
E.B. Therefore the will of the Father is directed towards the saints through the Son.
A.J.G. Quite so, and the saints are held together for the Father. The Lord says, “I will raise him up at the last day”, that is, the final thought is life in the Son beyond death.
E.E.P. Therefore, what we actually expect then is what we already now enjoy in the Spirit.
A.J.G. That is right. The only difference, of course, is that we are now in a weak and mixed state; but then we will be in a glorious state, which is completely spiritual, even our bodies will be spiritual.
E.E.P. But this verse 40 is a wonderful consolation for all of us, that we can leave everything in His hand when everything is in order on our side.
A.J.G. Yes, and I think verse 39 is very important, for there the Lord speaks of the work of God in its entirety: “that of all that he has given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up in the last day”. Thus we have the Father as supreme, how He gives everything to Christ and draws to Christ, and how the Lord receives everyone who is drawn to Him, and how He sustains Him throughout His life, presenting Himself as food, and then all raised at the last day.
A.S.T. Why is the expression used: “but should raise it up in the last day”?
A.J.G. There the Lord considers the work of God in souls as a complete whole.
C.deK.F. It is said once: “raise it up” (v 39), and at least twice: “raise him up”, vv 40, 44.
A.J.G. Yes, not the smallest particle of God’s work will be lost, and every single person included in the work of God will be raised on the last day.
E.E.P. Should this “it” perhaps also help us in relation to maintaining unity in all things?
A.J.G. Yes, I think so. This is not about so many individuals that the Father has. If the Father has the individual, each has his own value as a son, but we also have the idea of God’s work in its entirety.
E.B. Can you help us here again with regard to verse 40: “every one who sees the Son, and believes on him, should have life eternal”? What is seeing and believing? What I see, I do not need to believe anymore.
A.J.G. I think seeing is more in the sense of perception of who He is. The testimony of God’s love has come to us in the Son.
P.Sch. Is it a help that the Lord says, “Come and see”, John 1: 39? That helps our faith.
A.J.G. That is certainly the case.
Fr.Mö. Does the Father first draw us to the Son, that we may look at the Son and see in Him the features of the Father, and then be drawn to the Father?
A.J.G. Through Christ we come to the Father. “I am the way”, says the Lord, “No one comes to the Father unless by me” (John 14: 6), so that the Father draws to the Son, and the Son leads to the Father.
A.Chri. Can you help us about chapter 9: 35, 36: “Thou, dost thou believe on the Son of God? He answered and said, And who is he, Lord, that I may believe on him? And Jesus said to him, Thou hast both seen him, and he that speaks with thee is he”.
A.J.G. Yes. What question do you have?
A.Chri. Can this help us as to the question that was asked regarding seeing and faith?
A.J.G. It certainly involves a work of God in us to appreciate that Jesus is the Son of God. Once our eyes are opened to appreciate that Jesus is the Son of God, then His descent into death is for us the great witness of divine love; and His rising that He may take His place before God as a Man, that we may have life in Him is a wonderful expression of divine love and wisdom.
P.Sch. Does divine love help us in the epistle of John, when he says “as” there and brings before us what Christ is? “… as he is”, just as He is pure, and as He is in this world, 1 John 3: 3; 4: 17.
A.J.G. The Lord is presented to us as the One in whom we learn the truth.
E.E.P. In chapter 6, the word “come down” very often occurs. Is this in order to help us, so that we are not only satisfied with the fact that God has made a provision, but that we should also be spiritual and governed by the Spirit, knowing where everything came from?
A.J.G. The Lord came down from heaven to die, that is, to end the state of flesh and blood. He accepted flesh and blood conditions in order voluntarily to end this condition in death and then ascend to where He was before; that is, the Son of man has ascended to where He was before, and life is in Him. The Spirit quickens, the flesh profits nothing; and that is why we are completely dependent on the Spirit to understand these things. At the same time, however, we can also nourish our affections and thoughts from the fact that Christ came down from heaven and died. This is what He means when He refers to His flesh and blood. Our affections and thoughts should be nourished by the fact that He voluntarily came down and voluntarily died, and then ascended to where He had been before. Thus the thoughts of God for man are now expressed in Christ as a Man where He is. It is a new state of life for man, which was brought forth in Christ beyond death, and we share in it through the Spirit. It is a whole new area of interest connected to Christ where He is now. That is why the Lord says, “he also who eats me shall live also on account of me”.
H.Mö. And then He also speaks of the will of the Father.
A.J.G. Yes. Say something more, please.
H.Mö. I only thought that the Lord had accomplished everything in a wonderful way according to the will of the Father.
A.J.G. It is important to see that. The Lord presents the Father as supreme, the will of the Father rules everything. The Son has come in devotion to bring the good of it into our hearts. Thus we see how the Father and the Son and the Spirit work together in view of our being placed in life in Christ beyond death, in order to have our place in the rest that God Himself has brought about in Christ.
W.E. The Father loves the Son, and if we love the Son, the Lord Jesus, we delight the heart of the Father.
A.J.G. That is right.
E.E.P. The expression “comes down” occurs six times in chapter 6. There were six days of creation, and after that came the day of rest. If we understand this coming down in all its meanings, are we then equipped for the rest that God has before Himself?
A.J.G. Well, it is very touching that He came down from heaven. He has brought the heavenly to us in Himself.
A.S.T. Does not life in us have to be nurtured over and over again?
A.J.G. That is something very important. Many of us suffer from this, spiritually speaking, that we do not pay enough attention to the fact that we need to feed ourselves spiritually according to what the Lord has set out.
A.Chri. Is this food and drink?
A.J.G. Yes. We must first eat His flesh and then drink His blood, that is, to make His death our own, and also the love that was expressed in His death. Then the Lord says: “he also who eats me shall live also on account of me”. This is Christ, where He is, as the centre of the interests and pleasure of the Father.
C.deK.F. Peter seems to have an impression of it in this chapter, not as a revelation from the Father, but rather as verse 68 shows, what was valued in his soul.
A.J.G. That is very striking. Because when the twelve were asked, “Will ye also go away?” Peter answered, “Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast words of life eternal”. And then he said, “and we have believed and known that thou art the holy one of God”. It is striking that he valued Christ in this light. Peter seems to acknowledge that things must be morally in harmony with God, and that the Lord personally represented what God looked for in man. Holy conditions in manhood were in the Lord Jesus there under the eye of God.
E.E.P. That is why “spirit and truth” come first and then “spirit and life”, which we have here today.
A.J.G. Quite so. Things must be true, as we said yesterday. God is true. He must have right moral relations in everything and this is ensured in Christ as the Holy One of God.
E.B. Would you say that some suffer from not feeding enough of Christ? Can you say a little more about that?
A.J.G. In natural things, we must eat our meals every day. We know full well that if we neglect our meals, we will suffer in our health. The same can also be applied to spiritual things. If we do not always acquire the food that God introduces to us in Christ, then we will suffer spiritually. That is why, after God in Genesis 1 had created man, “male and female created he them”, that He would then give them instructions on what to feed. As soon as God brings forth life, He also brings food to light, so that this life may be preserved.
K.Pf.Sr. When the children of Israel came into the land, they fed themselves on the fruit of the land, of roasted grains and unleavened loaves.
A.J.G. Yes, quite so. We must have the unleavened bread in the wilderness and also in the land. And then there was also the food which was peculiar to the land, and they ate it. This is included in what the Lord says, “he also who eats me shall live also on account of me”.
E.B. Do you think it is important to have constant vigilance and then a constant link with the Lord?
A.J. G. Yes, that is right.
E.E.P. Is it interesting that verse 60 says, “Many therefore of His disciples”, but then He spoke to the twelve in verse 67?
A.J.G. Yes, many turned away and did not walk any more with Him. Spiritual ministry tests us. We are held by the natural much more than we think, but the spiritual ministry here tested the disciples.
E.E.P. Is it interesting that this new unfolding that Peter received, “thou art the Holy One of God”, is what this gospel confirms?
A.J.G. It is interesting to see that this was the impression that Peter and those who were with him had received from Christ. Undoubtedly, his impression of Christ continued to grow. We can see from the first chapter of the 2nd epistle of Peter what impressions he had received from Christ, as a result of being on the mount of transfiguration. There they had received an appreciation of Christ as the centre of the Father’s affections. But here at this point in chapter 6 they received an appreciation of Christ as the holy One of God, that is, conditions of holiness must be there first before restful conditions can be enjoyed.
E.E.P. Is it important that it first says “believed” and then “known”?
A.J.G. Yes, that is so. But then the Lord had also spoken words of life eternal to them, He had not preoccupied them with what was going on in the world around them. They were words connected with the purpose of God which the Lord had spoken to them.
W.M. Can we associate Hebrews 10: 19-20 with this, because the blood of Jesus and His flesh is spoken of?
A.J.G. Well, the blood meets the demands of God, and the flesh refers to His death, which brought to an end our old man, who could never please God. Therefore, in the acceptance of death, we can enter the presence of God—the sanctuary.
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