READINGS IN JOHN'S GOSPEL (3)
READINGS IN JOHN’S GOSPEL (3)
JT Questions were raised yesterday as to sonship, and the thought is that it should come up now, taking it from the end of chapter 9. The subject of sonship enters into chapter 10 because it bears on the question of sheep.
CHH Does this section pass over from what is individual to what is collective? Sheep would be collective.
JT Clearly so; the word implies that. The chapter opens, “Verily, verily, I say to you, He that enters not in by the door to the fold of the sheep, but mounts up elsewhere, he is a thief and a robber; but he that enters in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the porter opens”. The term ‘porter’ here, without any allusion to a name or the person of the porter, applies to some secret power which is probably the Spirit. It is a question of opening to the shepherd. In verse 35 of chapter 9 it says, “Jesus heard that they had cast him out, and having found him, he said to him, Thou, dost thou believe on the Son of God?”, John 9:35. That is to say, the question is put to him directly as to whether he believes on the Son of God. The first ‘thou’ is emphatic, as if the Lord would probe the man and direct his thoughts to Himself: “Dost thou believe on the Son of God?”. The time had come for this and the man is ready for it. So he says immediately, “Who is he, Lord, that I may believe on him? And Jesus said to him, Thou hast both seen him, and he that speaks with thee is he. And he said, I believe, Lord: and he did him homage”, John 9:36 - 38. The Lord has been leading up to this and this man is ready for it. He says, “I believe, Lord”. It has entered into his soul, into the whole make-up of his being; the Lord would henceforth be before him as the Son of God.
[p. 347] SP Is this believing on a higher level than Peter’s believing in chapter 6, “We have believed and known that thou art the holy one of God”? John 6:69.
JT It is parallel, I would think. Peter implies something that he had known, it had been experimental with Peter and with the other disciples. It says that “from that time many of his disciples went away back and walked no more with him. Jesus therefore said to the twelve, Will ye also go away?” as if the Lord was challenging them. “Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast words of life eternal; and we have believed and known that thou art the holy one of God”, John 6:66 - 69. That is, they had experimentally entered into what He was, but Peter does not use the word ‘Son’; it is “holy one”; it is a priestly thought. I suppose we might say that sonship would underlie it but it is on another line; it is really a priestly thought in chapter 6. The Lord was the Holy One; the twelve had it in their minds, at least the eleven had, that He was this, He was the Holy One. The sheep here must be regarded as corresponding, only that it is a more general thought; chapter 6 contemplates the twelve, the apostles or disciples, as having official status. The Lord intended to confirm that too.
SMcC In verse 2 it says, “But he that enters in by the door” in contrast to him that mounts up elsewhere. Would the entering in by the door set out the legal way in which the Lord came into the position involved here, as, for instance, Matthew sets out in the genealogy that the Lord came in in the legal way? I am using the word ‘legal’ in the sense of what is right and proper.
JT “He that enters not in by the door to the fold of the sheep, but mounts up elsewhere, he is a thief and a robber; but he that enters in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep”; that is to say, the Lord alludes to Himself, He is the shepherd of the sheep. But then, “To him the porter opens”. Is that what is in your mind?
SMcC I was wondering if the coming in by the door is an allusion to the Lord’s manhood, the way He came into the position; and whether the porter opening would suggest the Spirit signalising Him, as it were, in His entrance upon it.
JT Therefore intelligence had already come up somewhere as to who the Lord was. Who had that intelligence? I think what is in mind is the twelve, not Judas, but the twelve; they already had the intelligence as to His Person and He is entitled to enter in at the door as the Shepherd of the sheep. He would be, as Mary would put it, “Rabboni”, which means ‘My Teacher’; He is entitled to that. Such a one would say, I know His history, I know who He is and that He is entitled to the place; He is the One we can trust as our Teacher, as our Shepherd. It would raise the whole question as to what is current around us in the way of educational institutions with a view to qualifying persons who have to say to divine things. We have no status. When I say, ‘we’, I mean those who seek to walk in the truth. We have no status at all except in the sense that the Lord gives us a status; the Holy Spirit is operating amongst us and gives us some understanding of the Person we are dealing with. So it was with Peter’s remark, “To whom shall we go? thou hast words of life eternal; and we have believed and know that thou art the holy one of God”, John 6:69. But here the porter is more formal, “To him the porter opens”; we do not get that in chapter 6 but we get it here. The porter is evidently an unknown person but he is known spiritually. Does that meet with your exercise?
SMcC It is very interesting — your reference to the hidden side of service in the porter. One would [p. 349] like more help as to the way in which the porter opens.
JT Well, that becomes a very interesting inquiry. I think we should approach it now simply, including the thought of sonship, because the idea of sonship is earlier: “The only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him”, John 1:18. The preposition ‘in’ signifies that He has entered into that position. That is not what He was eternally; He has entered into it.
JTJr Are you looking then at the matter as it is, with the Lord in heaven and the porter as representing the Spirit here, having come down at Pentecost? There is an order of things that the porter will recognise.
JT I think so; there is some intelligence about it. We have referred to chapter 6, but then I am going back further to chapter 1 as to “the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father”, John 1:18. How did He get there? Now chapter 10 raises this whole question as to how He got there and whether He is entitled to be opened to, whether He is entitled to a place such as we are in this afternoon without any official position outside at all. There is no official here, there are no formally constituted elders; we are here because of intelligence that we have, that we have acquired in some way, maybe in our houses and among our families; but we have acquired it in some sense. The porter is opening to us; that is, he opens the door to persons like ourselves because we belong to the sheep.
SMcC Do you see any link in principle with the word of John the baptist, “He who sent me to baptise with water, he said to me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending and abiding on him, he it is who baptises with the Holy Spirit. And I have seen and borne witness that this is the Son of God”? John 1:33. Is there a link in principle [p. 350] there?
JT I think there is a very strong link. That is the way John approaches the subject, I mean the apostle John, the writer of this book. The Spirit is in mind, but He is a dove; He descends like a dove upon the Lord, but He identifies Him as the One who baptises with the Holy Spirit.
JRH John states that in connection with the Lord being manifested to Israel. Is that the idea of the fold in the first place, this being manifested to Israel bringing the Lord into view as to the place that is proper to Him?
JT You are quoting from John 1, “I knew him not; but that he might be manifested to Israel, therefore have I come baptising with water. And John bore witness, saying, I beheld the Spirit descending as a dove from heaven, and it abode upon him. And I knew him not; but he who sent me to baptise with water”, that is to say, God, “he said to me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending and abiding on him, he it is who baptises with the Holy Spirit. And I have seen and borne witness that this is the Son of God”, John 1:33,34. So that there it is clearly stated, this is the Son of God. What He is is indicated clearly and John bears witness to it; that is, John is formally the forerunner of Christ in that sense. That passage enters into this position we are in now, as to sonship and how we apprehend it and how the Lord is known amongst us — at least I believe He is known — as the Shepherd. We know Him as the Shepherd and the Spirit makes the way clear for Him to have the place of our Teacher.
AR When you speak of sonship have you in mind that there is only one Son in this gospel?
JT That is right. The sonship of Christ is made very much of in John’s writings, more than in those of any other of the evangelists.
AR We are only sheep in this chapter.
JT [p. 351] Well, just so. Another thing that comes up is that responsibility is not stressed in regard of sheep, showing that we are the objects of care.
CT Verse 4, “When he has put forth all his own, he goes before them”; is that the thought of care that you are bringing in?
JT “When he has put forth all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, because they know his voice. But they will not follow a stranger, but will flee from him, because they know not the voice of strangers”. That is, we are not going to be carried away by any person who pretends to have something from God, and there is much of this abroad in christendom; we are not going to follow any such persons. We want to be assured that He is the Shepherd and then we know His voice, meaning that there is a work of God in us whereby we know His voice, the voice of the Shepherd.
JRH In John 9:34 the blind man is cast out. The word ‘cast out’ is the same as ‘put forth’ in verse 4 of chapter 10. You were speaking of being outside of the ecclesiastical system, and the man’s being cast out is really the outcome of the work of God showing itself in him. But the Lord takes it on Himself here: “When he has put forth all his own”.
JT The idea is that the sheep are detached from the whole Jewish system. We get a status here that is of prime importance; we have this place with the Lord and we know His voice. We do not know the voice of strangers and that saves us from all impostors, from all misleading persons.
SMcC The Spirit having come in as He has, into a position where He is serving in the economy, would it be right to think that this word, “To him the porter opens”, would apply in a meeting like this?
[p. 352] That is, to such as these the Spirit is active in opening.
JT The unknown person called the porter is conversant with the sheep. He has them in mind and then they know the voice of the Shepherd. Therefore the porter recognises both. He is conversant with the sheep and he is conversant with the Shepherd, so that we are saved with what John brings out here; we are saved from impostors in christianity. There are about one hundred religions, so-called, in christendom and we do not want any of them but what is indicated in this chapter.
CHH Would the words that He “leads them out” imply that He was outside Himself?
JT I would think so, except that we cannot go too far in dissociating the Lord Jesus from judaism, from among the Jews; and yet that may be what is in mind in John’s writings — to dissociate the saints from judaism entirely, basing everything on the Shepherd and the Shepherd’s voice and the ears of the sheep knowing His voice. Therefore the position is certain; our position is certain on these lines.
SP Would you say that the porter is in holy, sympathetic accord with the One He opens to and with the sheep too?
JT That is the idea. There is perfect consonance between the porter, whoever he may be — and I would say it is the Spirit of God, without stressing it — and the Shepherd. He is in accord with the Shepherd and with the sheep so that we are on right grounds, on 2 Timothy, separation, grounds, and we can go forward. We have fellowship, we have assembly status so to speak, and we are in touch with the Lord and with each other in assembly.
Ques Would you say that in leading them out of the fold He does not establish another idea as to a fold? It says, “There shall be one flock, one shepherd”, but there is no thought of [p. 353] another fold.
JT Quite so.
AR Do you mean that if christians in the systems around us allowed the Spirit to operate they would be delivered from them?
JT They would if they were sincere. They may be deceived, of course, and allowance has to be made for deception in a certain sense; but if we are all sincere, this is the ground we should be on, on the ground of the sheep and the Shepherd; in other words the ground of Christ and the assembly.
JTJr The porter would be disregarded around; He is not recognised. Much is made of the Lord’s name but there is no recognition of the porter.
JT That is what I believe enters into this chapter. It is of prime importance that we should pursue this and seek to reach the truth of Christ and the assembly and to understand that the Spirit is operating. Room is made for Him.
AR Would what Mr. Darby said about sinning against the Holy Ghost be confirmed in what you are saying?
JT You refer to his book: The Notion of a Clergyman: Dispensationally the Sin against the Holy Ghost. We are saved from that by the tenth of John.
EAL In Romans 8:27 it says, “But he who searches the hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit”, Romans 8:27. Would you say that that stresses the unity of thought between the Lord and the Spirit?
JT Just so, He knows the mind of the Spirit. He makes intercession for the saints according to God.
EAL In connection with what you have been saying about the porter and the Lord, the Lord says, “I am the door”; the door is personalised and the porter is a person, so we see that between these two Persons there is great unison of thought.
JT The whole chapter stresses that position. And the great result of Romans 8 to which you have referred is in verses 38,39: “For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities ... shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord”, Romans 8:38,39.
JF Is it true that in christendom men assume the place of porter and exclude Paul’s ministry in that way?
JT Just so, officialism does that; and what has just been remarked is that the notion of a clergyman is dispensationally the sin against the Holy Ghost; dispensationally, if the brethren can take that in. The phraseology is most decided and clear.
RWS Is not this just the time when we need the current ministry as to the Lord as Shepherd, and as to His Father as He speaks of Him in verse 15, and as to the porter because of the thieves and robbers and strangers which you are suggesting would involve the apostate condition?
JT Quite so, and I am sure all go with the suggestions that we should be clear of mere denominationalism and clericalism without mentioning names; that we should be clear of all that, and should be in the consciousness of the operations of the Spirit and the position of Christ as Head of the assembly in heaven; that is, His position in heaven and the Holy Spirit’s position here. The whole matter is as clear as it can be; it is the ground the Bible is on, and it is the ground we shall be on if we allow the Lord to be with us until He comes for us. It is a question for each one to challenge his heart as to this matter of the sheep and the Shepherd because we need to see how love comes into the matter. We come very near to the thought of Christ and the assembly in this section in the terms sheep and Shepherd, because the Lord moves on to the idea of the Father and Himself and that He has received a commandment from the Father to lay down His life for the sheep. It is a question of the position of a Person having a commission,
[p. 355] being in the position of having a commission under God’s authority and guidance in what He is doing.
SMcC In 1929 there was a distinctive feature of the truth brought before us as to our Lord’s sonship, and the saints were saved from division in relation to that recovered feature of the truth. Would you look at that as in a way an activity of the porter in opening, both in relation to the Person of Christ and to the saints?
JT I think what we said about John 1 enters into that. The question was whether the Lord was Son eternally; the assertion was that He was Son before He became Man; or whether He became Son and entered into the position of Son in becoming Man.
SMcC I was thinking of how the line of demarcation between those holding the truth and the ecclesiastical system became more defined because of what was held in the creeds.
JT Just so. So that in Proverbs 8 where it speaks of wisdom as a person it was said that it was the Lord Himself; whereas the truth is that wisdom is a thing and it is to be so regarded in Proverbs 8. John 1 indicates that in wisdom’s way the Lord has come in incarnation into the position of sonship. So that the whole matter of ecclesiasticism has to be refused and the Lord given His place as Head of the assembly, and the saints are to be viewed as the assembly. That is the principle we are on. If we are rightly in fellowship, that is where we are.
JWW Is there a link with John 21 where the Lord is commissioning Peter? In His commission He says, “Feed my lambs”, “Shepherd my sheep”, John 21:15,17.
JT That was the point in chapter 21. The Lord said to Peter, “Lovest thou me more than these?”, John 21:15. ‘These’, of course, would be the other disciples; the conclusion was therefore that if Peter had a position like that, then he was to “Feed my lambs”, and “Shepherd my sheep”, John 21:15,17. That is the position that was left to Peter, and that of course has to be taken up now by ourselves, by anyone who is seeking to serve the Lord’s people. It is a question of Christ’s sheep and lambs.
Ques Would you include Acts 20 in this subject, referring to the Holy Spirit setting certain persons over the assembly? Paul says, “Take heed therefore to yourselves, and to all the flock, wherein the Holy Spirit has set you as overseers, to shepherd the assembly of God, which he has purchased with the blood of his own”, Acts 20:28. And then the apostle designates certain persons as “grievous wolves”, Acts 20:29.
JT That is the ground that Paul took as coming into the service. Have you something else in your mind?
Ques I wanted to know how it relates to what we have in John 20.
JT Well, of course it corresponds with all that we have as to John and Paul. John, you might say, did not have a ministry; Paul was the minister of the assembly. He had the mystery. John did not have that. Paul had the ministry of the assembly and laboured to present every man perfect in Christ; that was his line, a very great line; and John supports that in his gospel and in his epistles.
RWS It is in 1 Samuel that David returned from Saul to feed his father’s sheep at Bethlehem; and then when he went to meet Goliath he rose up early in the morning and left the sheep with the keeper. We have had somewhere the suggestion that the keeper there is the Holy Spirit. Does that link on with what we have in this chapter?
JT That would be right, I suppose, as a type. David’s brother chided him with seeking to come to see the battle but David says, “What have I now done? Is there not a cause?”, 1 Samuel 17:29. There was a cause.
[p. 357] He had left his sheep with the keeper; he was in charge of the sheep but he left them with the keeper. Is that in your mind?
RWS Yes. I thought it very affecting that the Spirit might be regarded in that way, not only as a porter but as the keeper too.
JT You can see how the blessed Spirit is here to do anything, so to say, that the sheep need, anything the assembly needs. He is here to do that. “He will give you another Comforter”, John 14:16 the Lord says, and that Comforter is the Holy Spirit. He also said, “Ye know him”; John 14:17 the Lord assumed that they knew Him, and I believe that is supported by this chapter.
AR Is that involved in verse 10 where He says, “I am come that they might have life, and might have it abundantly”?
JT Just so, showing the full thought of His coming, that He had that in mind.
AH I would like to ask in regard to verse 6, “This allegory spoke Jesus to them, but they did not know what it was of which he spoke to them”, Is the service of the Spirit engaging us now with the unfolding of what is hidden? There is much in the Scriptures in parables which we are having unfolded; for instance, in Ezekiel, much that is being opened up to us.
JT I would say so. We are looking at Ezekiel in New York just from that standpoint and we are greatly helped with it because the Spirit of God is made so much of in it. The prophet says the Spirit spoke with him; and in chapters 36 and 37 we have the idea of the Spirit’s activities and the truth seems to be opened up to us. We have found the book of Ezekiel of peculiar importance in the light of what we have now as to the Spirit of God as One to be named, to be addressed [p. 358] in service.
JRH In your reference to John 14 where the Lord says, “Ye know him, for he abides with you, and shall be in you”, John 14:17 was there a recognition on the part of the disciples that the Spirit was there in the Lord Jesus Himself, and in the power of His ministry?
JT I think they must have come to know that as we follow the truth as to the Lord’s association with His own. And if we continue to follow the truth we shall see that the Spirit is known amongst the saints. The Spirit is known. We ought to be able to say in some sense that we know the Spirit as we know the Lord Jesus because the thought of knowledge applies to Both.
AR Does the thought of porter suggest Him objectively?
JT That is what it would amount to. He is outside by Himself; He is there to guide us into all the truth and so forth. But then there is the Son as well and in chapter 8 He says, “If therefore the Son shall set you free, ye shall be really free”, John 8:36. Sonship comes out in the teaching we have had.
WL Would you say that the thought of the porter was peculiarly in relation to the setting up of christianity, and peculiarly in relation to the fold rather than to the one flock and the one Shepherd?
JT Well, I think flock and Shepherd are more suited to our position. Allusion has been made to Acts 20, and the saints at Ephesus who were elders; they were to take care of the flock in which the Holy Spirit had made them overseers. The Spirit had made them overseers.
ABP The Lord refers to the Father’s hand as though it were a place of protection. Does that supersede the fold? “No man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand”, John 10:29 a place of security.
JT That is the idea. We have often dwelt on that word ‘security’; that is, we are in the hands of [p. 359] the Son and in the hands of the Father. The Son’s hand is powerful, of course, but the Father’s is in a sense more powerful; I mean that is the way the thing is taken up in the economy. The Father is greater than all and no one can pluck them out of His hand, so that our position is secure, infinitely secure.
ABP And very personal and intimate.
JT Just so. Very beautiful that it is so, that it is personal. Our relations are with Christ personally and with the Father Himself, and the assumption in all this is that we know the Spirit of God. We know Him in a personal sense. It is not easy to point out how it is so in the case of any one of us; at the same time this chapter proves that it is so — that the Spirit is to be known, that the Father is to be known, and the Son is to be known.
Rem What we have here as to the Spirit opening the door, the porter, is of great importance. I think even now the Spirit is bringing the deep things of God to us.
JT That opens up the whole question as to where the door is, what we are led into, and is it not into eternity? Are we not proceeding to eternity? The lines we are on are leading in that direction and the knowledge of divine Persons is involved in all that we are saying: the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are all engaged in this and it is to lead us, that is to say the assembly, into eternity. Wonderful, I think it is, to be able to see it thus! It is well worth looking into. It is important that each one of us here today should challenge our hearts as to what we are in, as to whether we are going on to eternity. That is a wonderful thought, that we are going on to that; and we are being led into the light of it and nourished in it, kept in it, in view of each saint being preserved in the [p. 360] assembly.
AB In your reference to 2 Timothy bearing on what you are saying, Paul says in chapter 1, “For I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep for that day the deposit I have entrusted to him”; 2 Timothy 1:12 and then later, “Keep, by the Holy Spirit which dwells in us, the good deposit entrusted”, 2 Timothy 1:14. And your reference to chapter 2 in relation to the overthrow of the faith of some says that “the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, The Lord knows those that are his”, 2 Timothy 2:19.
JT That is very good, that we have such an opening up at this time. Although we use the word ‘assembly’ and the words ‘local meeting’ and ‘local assembly’ and so forth, these are just terms that apply provisionally to the present time; but it is all with the view to the final thought which is eternity. We are going on to that, nothing less than that; as we often used to sing,
‘We’re travelling home to heaven above.
Will you go, will you go?’
That is all simple, and we are well taken care of in that the three divine Persons are occupied with us, taking care of each of us.
FES Would you say a little as to the thought of “I am the door” in that connection?
JT It is a question of the Person of Christ, what He is Himself. We are dealing with eternal things, and the terms used are just for convenience, but the point is that we are going on to eternity. If it be a question of God’s house, well, God’s house in the greater sense is eternity. It is the universe really, immediately and physically; but in the greater sense it is eternity. It is a question of eternal things and we are going on to that.
FES Would it add to the thought of security to which you have been referring in that as having passed through that door we are in the realm of divine security?
JT Just so. The word ‘security’ is, of course, useful to younger people, although we are all glad to use it; but that is the position. How great it is too!
JLP Would it be the opened door which no one can shut?
JT Well, that is just what it is. That is in Revelation.
RWS In verse 3 the sheep “hear his voice” and in verse 4 they “know his voice”. In view of entering our eternal conditions, fixed conditions, is it important that we should discriminate between the voice of the Father, the voice of the Son, and the voice of the Spirit?
JT That is just what came into mind yesterday, whether we might not be led on to those lines in view of chapter 14, as to distinguishing or discerning the voices of the divine Persons, and who is speaking. I do not know that any of us would undertake to say we can do that, but it is perfectly clear that it is knowable, because it says, “Ye know him, for he abides with you, and shall be in you”, John 14:17.
CAM “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me”. Are you stressing the idea of following into eternal conditions, especially because we are viewing the saints as a flock in their present condition?
JT Yes, it is in our present conditions, such as we are in today. We are getting near now in a collective sense to eternal conditions. This is the first day of the week and we have had the Lord’s supper; the first day of the week ought to afford these conditions to us; we should look forward to them on the first day of the week. It is a peculiar day; it has a peculiar place. It is called the Lord’s day but John also says it is the first day of the week, showing that the weekly position is the one that is in mind; it is not a question of the moon, the monthly position, but of the week, the seven days of [p. 362] the week.
FKC In relation to your suggestion that the voices are knowable, it says in Acts 8 that the Spirit spoke to Philip; and Peter said the Spirit spoke to him; and Ezekiel says the Spirit spoke with him; and Paul said the Lord said certain things to him; as if these persons knew exactly who was speaking to them.
JT That is very good. We often try to reach the idea of divine Persons and to know Their Name, to know the Persons speaking; but I think the Lord is intending now to bring the thing out for us. The Holy Spirit being brought before us so prominently is to make way for it, because He is the One who looks after all these matters. He is in charge, so to speak, of all these matters. The Lord is enabling us to make way for Him; and I think He is enabling us, therefore, to make way for eternal things, a system of eternal things.
Ques Would you say verse 9 is the enjoyment of eternal conditions?
JT “I am the door: if anyone enter in by me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and shall go out and shall find pasture”. The idea of salvation is first and then going in and out and finding pasture: that is pretty much eternal things. But what is opened up to us on the first day of the week? I believe the first day of the week is intended for it, and the term is used in Acts 20 when the disciples came together to break bread and Paul discoursed a long time. We know there is a lot to say about it, and we are trying to say some of the things today, as we always do at these special meetings. The three days seem to be the Lord’s way of giving opportunity to open up these things.
CTJr Our knowledge of the Shepherd in verses 14 and 15 is linked with the knowledge the Son has of the Father and the Father of the Son. Would you help us on that?
JT [p. 363] That shows that we are coming near to eternal conditions, coming near to where the Father and Son are conversing together. They are moving together, but the Spirit is not mentioned here by name; but we know that He must be here and the porter, I believe, refers to Him. He is a person who looks after the sheep and knows them, and He knows the Shepherd as well and puts the sheep and the Shepherd together.
SMcC In regard to the Spirit’s voice, it has often been said that it must be through someone. But is it right to limit it in that way? The Father’s voice spoke from heaven. The Spirit may speak directly, do you think?
JT I think the Lord is saying to us that there are higher levels for us to reach; I think we can say we know there are higher levels available to us.
SMcC We are seeking help as to this matter of the Spirit’s voice. The Spirit spoke to Philip, but there was no other vessel present. The voice must have been heard by Philip; he discerned it. The same is true of Peter.
JT You just wonder about it, whether we have been too careless about the truth, assuming that we know it but we really do not know it. There are higher levels that we have not touched.
AR It says in Acts 10, “But as Peter continued pondering over the vision, the Spirit said to him ...”, Acts 10:19. Earlier Peter said, “In no wise, Lord”, Acts 10:14 so that he must have spoken directly to the Lord, and the Lord must have spoken directly to Peter.
JT Yes, I should like to have a word with Peter about that. We shall have, too, presently.
Ques The frequent references in Revelation to, “He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies” — would that be on individual [p. 364] lines?
JT Yes, it is a question of what the Spirit says, and I believe it refers to all the ministry that is current; I mean what the Spirit is doing, the ministry He is giving to the saints. The Lord says what is formal in the addresses to the assemblies, but there is also what the Spirit says to the assemblies. Perhaps we have not been specific about that. Personally I am very concerned about it, as to whether we are concerned about what the Spirit is saying. What the Lord says is specified, but what the Spirit says is not specified; we have to wait and see what is coming out. What did we have of it in the Middle Ages? Very little; and then protestantism came on, and then the revival, and we are still in it and I believe it is opening up more and more. I think there are higher levels we have not touched.
EAL In 1 Corinthians 12 it says, “No one can say, Lord Jesus, unless in the power of the Holy Spirit. But there are distinctions of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are distinctions of services, and the same Lord; and there are distinctions of operations, but the same God who operates all things in all. But to each the manifestation of the Spirit is given for profit. For to one, by the Spirit, is given the word of wisdom; and to another the word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit”, 1 Corinthians 12:3 - 8. Then in verse 11, “But all these things operates the one and the same Spirit, dividing to each in particular according as he pleases”, 1 Corinthians 12:11. I was thinking that the knowledge: “For to one, by the Spirit, is given the word of wisdom; and to another the word of knowledge” 1 Corinthians 12:8 is really what we are seeking before the Lord, that we might have this wisdom and knowledge so that we intelligently take on the truth by the Spirit.
JT And so the epistles to Corinth are so instructive. Indeed all these epistles of Paul are opening up the truth of the local assembly. The thought is to come to the local assembly first, and then to be [p. 365] enlarged into the wide thought of the universal assembly, and that will open up into eternity presently. It is just a question of waiting for it and being ready for it. So that these epistles are peculiarly instructive as to the local assembly, and the general assembly too. As regards giving, for instance, in 2 Corinthians 8, Paul opens that up. How concerned he was that the poor saints in Jerusalem should have what they needed! And of course that would apply in principle at any time, that the saints should have what they need.
FES I wanted to ask further as to the thought of the door, whether that would be a precious way in which we are now led into the more intimate side of the knowledge of divine Persons?
JT I think that is just what we are trying to say. One is afraid to say too much because one might go beyond one’s depth, but I do see that there are higher levels. The word ‘level’ is a very good one. There are higher levels that we have not touched.
JTJr Do you think the apostle alluding to the third heaven and paradise would confirm what you are saying?
JT Very good, I am glad you mentioned that. Paul says, “I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord”, 2 Corinthians 12:1. Then he goes on to say he was caught up to the third heaven, and then he speaks of paradise. Paradise is a place of enjoyment, a place of delights.
JTJr He heard things; somebody must have been speaking.
JT Just so, that is good. He heard things said that “it is not allowed to man to utter”, 2 Corinthians 12:4. But they are to be heard anyway; Paul could tell you that. Of course we are at a great loss that we have not Paul and Peter to tell us about these things, but we shall have them. In the meantime we have the Spirit, and if we learn to use Him, so to speak, humbly, we should get these things, because He has everything.
[p. 366] He is in charge of everything subjectively, and He is here below with us.
J It was suggested at Galt that John became “in the Spirit”; Revelation 1:10 that is to say, he already had the Spirit in him, but there came a time when he became “in the Spirit”; and it was suggested that the assembly has reached a point in its history when it has become “in the Spirit”. What would you say about that?
JT Well, I do not want to be too pretentious. I am just a little afraid of assuming that, but still, what you say is very suggestive. “I became in the Spirit”, he says; of course, John had the Spirit, like the others; but he says, “I became in the Spirit on the Lord’s day”, Revelation 1:10. It is very suggestive that ‘the Lord’s day’ has a place in all this, and ‘the first day of the week’ too, because John is the one that uses that term especially.
CT As to this thought of higher levels, do we find in Luke 22 the master of the house showing us all things? It says, “And he will shew you a large upper room furnished”, Luke 22:12.
JT Very good. The master of the house would be suggestive of the Spirit. It is a large upper room and the Lord says, “There make ready”, Luke 22:12. All that is material, but the Spirit of God is not slow to take account of all these things spiritually and provide them for us.
CT Do we reach a higher level there, because first we get the man, the master of the house, and then the Lord Himself?
JT Very good.
ABP In Revelation 4 John says, “I saw, and behold, a door opened in heaven”, Revelation 4:1. Do you think that in a sense we are beginning to see that door opening up?
JT Well, very likely. “A door opened in heaven” is very specific because it is opening into [p. 367] something. It is not opening into the millennium exactly, it is opened in heaven. It is a heavenly thing; it is an eternal position and there is a door opened to us.
CHH Is it important to see in Acts 16 that the porter, the Spirit, closes doors? They attempted to speak, but the Holy Spirit forbade them to speak in Asia. It says that both the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Jesus suffered them not.
JT Well, the mind of God pointed to the west. I believe that is what is in mind, that the mind of God pointed to the west. When I say ‘the west’ I mean Europe and its outgoings. That was in God’s mind and there have been great results, away down to Australia and New Zealand as well as in this country. Therefore the prohibition as to going to the east. The west was in the mind of God and I believe that has continued ever since.
CHH Do you think that opening and closing doors for service is still by the Holy Spirit?
JT Quite so. He knows everything; He is in charge of everything in those matters. Of course we all know that the west has opened up, Australia and this country; these undoubtedly were in the mind of God at that time, that Europe was to be opened up and its inhabitants were to spread out and God was to follow them and carry on His work with them.
DMacD Acts 7 speaks of Stephen being full of the Holy Spirit, and he beheld the heavens opened. Is that in keeping with what you have in mind as to higher levels?
JT Just so. Stephen is a forerunner, a martyr. “Thy martyr”, Acts 22:20 he is called; he is the only one spoken of in that way and the Lord, as it were, honoured him in doing it. Paul was not yet converted; Stephen was a forerunner, in a sense, of what was in the mind of God to open up through [p. 368] Paul, and the truth of the mystery was in mind. The word ‘mystery’ is not to be forgotten; it is a striking word as applicable to the assembly, and Paul had to do with it. It is Paul’s line of things — the mystery. He finishes with that thought in the epistle to the Romans, his first great epistle. We shall go further on this point and hope to get on to the Spirit in chapter 14.