"THE COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST AND OUR GATHERING TOGETHER TO HIM"
“[p. 20] THE COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST AND OUR GATHERING TOGETHER TO HIM”
JT The leading feature of this epistle, following on the first epistle, is what is said about the man of sin. It is important that so much stress is laid on the need of paying attention to facts in looking into the matter. The apostle says, “Now we beg you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind, nor troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as if it were by us, as that the day of the Lord is present”. Clearly it is a matter of great importance, at first positively and then negatively. First, we are to have a clear understanding of this subject of the man of sin; but that understanding should be accompanied by what we have in the opening verse; “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to him”. The mind is thus directed solemnly and urgently to the consideration of this matter, but by these preceding thoughts, as if we are to be filled with them first, and so be ready for the awfulness of the subject; that is, the imminence of the appearing of the man of sin. We are to be fully ready for it and equipped so as not to be overcome but in a spiritual way be ready for it. The Lord had said in His addresses to the assemblies, that He would keep the assembly from the great tribulation which is involved in this matter. “I also will keep thee out of the hour of trial, which is about to come upon the whole habitable world, to try them that dwell upon the earth”, Revelation 3:10. So that we shall be out of it; we shall not go through the awfulness of what is indicated here, but it is all the more necessary that we should understand it and be warned; especially the thought of the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ and our [p. 21] gathering together to Him. It is not simply our going to be with the Lord, but our gathering together to Him.
AR Were those in Thessalonica inclined to be shaken in their minds early?
JT That is what is clearly intimated. The apostle had already informed them of this subject, but they needed to be re-informed, showing that we may forget things that are constantly brought before us. We may forget them at a critical time.
WWM In verse 7 he calls attention to the fact that the mystery of lawlessness already works. He put them on their guard.
JT Just so; clearly a current matter, as you might say. What already worked then is working now. It is an old matter really.
CAM In what you stress as to the Lord’s coming and our gathering together to Him — assembly matters would be the only way to get a right view of things.
JT Yes; the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, and then our gathering together to Him. The idea of gathering should not be foreign to us because it enters into the Lord’s supper and other assembly services. We ought to become accustomed to the idea of our gathering together to Him by the services that we have regularly.
WFK They were young in the faith; they had not been converted long.
JT No; that is remarkable. It shows how young people need to be instructed, not simply making a theory of prophecy but knowing the facts of prophecy; that they are imminent and overwhelming in themselves, only that we have the encouragement that we shall be kept out of the great tribulation, as the Lord says. The Lord promises immunity from it; at the same time He would have us acquainted with what [p. 22] is involved.
RWS Is it a principle of his ministry that Paul brings forward these stimulating thoughts first before going into the matter of the man of sin?
JT I would think that. It is to be noted that the first epistle contemplates the Lord’s coming, not His appearing, exactly, but His coming for us; it should instruct us as to what is involved in what we call the rapture of the saints. The idea of His appearing and our gathering together to Him should have some application to assembly services. That is to say, we ought to be accustomed to His coming, His appearing and our gathering together to Him. And then as to the idea of rapture, the book of Acts contemplates that at least one brother, active in the ministry, had been raptured. I refer to Philip in chapter 8:39. I suppose the suggestion is that it should be intelligible to all. And then Peter speaks about ecstasy. These suggestions are to remind us of what belongs to christianity and to those who are of it, that we ought not to be strangers to these things, either to ecstasy, or the appearing of the Lord, or the rapture, or our gathering together to Him. All these things ought to be more or less familiar to us, in principle at least.
FNW The same expression, “caught up”, used by Paul in 2 Corinthians 12:2 is used of the saints in the rapture.
JT Just so.
ANW Are you placing the idea of the rapture on the words, “our gathering together to him”?
JT I was thinking we should not be unfamiliar with the thought of being gathered together to Him, because it enters into assembly service, in principle. There are certain things that may be spoken of, in principle, and then they may be spoken of literally in their fulness, for we are gradually brought up to things in christianity so that we become familiar with them. The early saints including the apostles [p. 23] themselves had to learn much after the Spirit came. And that ought to come home to us. We all have to learn much and the question is whether we are learning and becoming familiar with what is in the mind of God and what is involved in christianity.
RWS The person who was troubling these Thessalonians would have discouraged them by saying the appearing was past, whereas Paul speaks of His coming and our gathering to Him. He makes it a present continuous hope.
JT Yes; there are certain persons in the world who pretend that the Lord has come. Some here may not understand that there are such people, but there are those who hold this sort of thing. It is of the devil, because it is not true. And so here, the warning was, “Let not anyone deceive you”. Paul had already said, “... that ye be not soon shaken in mind, nor troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as if it were by us, as that the day of the Lord is present”. This was being suggested and it was a lie. So there are suggestions being made in the world, but they are just lies.
WFK They were exhorted to encourage each other with the words about the Lord’s coming in the first epistle.
JT That was about His coming for us. Perhaps we make much of that at our burials, but the thought should be also ever present, because it is very touching in its preciousness.
FHL The matter of spirit and letter can also enter into assembly matters. We should be familiar with that, in a right sense.
JT Yes. Correspondence among the brethren is quite familiar. Here, it was misused: “... that ye be not soon shaken in mind, nor troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as if it were by us”. What is alluded to here is false. It is a happy thing that there is much correspondence among the [p. 24] brethren that is true and edifying, and some of it is in print, but we are to be on our guard against what is false.
FHL The enemy would take what is current among us to pervert it to his own use.
JT Quite so.
RWS Should there be scope as we gather at the Supper for our gathering together to Him, and then the showing forth of the Lord’s death until He come? Should there not be the public vindication of the Lord’s rights, the reversal of the world’s judgment about Him? Is that not the idea in: “Ye announce the death of the Lord, until he come”? 1 Corinthians 11:26.
JT I think that is very important, so that we are publicly on the Lord’s side, as we often quote: “Thine are we, David, and with thee, thou son of Jesse”, 1 Chronicles 12:18. We are not ashamed to ally and identify ourselves with Him, and in doing so to celebrate His death.
WWM There is a footnote to the word ‘mind’ that seems to be very important: Or ‘shaken from a steady and soberly judging mind’. We are to have a right judgment of things all the time. Is that it?
JT Very good. We have the spirit “of power, and of love, and of wise discretion” 2 Timothy 1:7; and so it was that the demoniac who was delivered was sitting and clothed and in his right mind. He would be ready for anything like this that might be current among the brethren. We should not think of treating our younger brethren or those who have come amongst us lately as though they do not understand. The idea of a right mind is that there is a readiness to understand; and then, we have the mind of Christ, so that we are made competent to understand.
CN Is it also to be understood that the Lord’s coming and our gathering together to Him will not only have its effect upon the assembly but upon [p. 25] conditions outside? Immediately, He begins to make war with this adversary and will take on the kingdom and set everything in order, in view of God being all in all. All that follows the Lord’s public coming and our gathering together to Him, does it not?
JT Well, the procedure in the Lord’s service is instructive; we begin with the Lord’s supper and then go on to what relates to the Father and to God. The word, “For as often as ye shall eat this bread, and drink the cup, ye announce the death of the Lord, until he come”, 1 Corinthians 11:26 is important as bearing on what is outside. We meet in a room, or in a hall, or in a brother’s house, and the room affords a protection to us, but at the same time it is, in a sense, public, and the procedure ought to be always in keeping with that. We are already accustomed to these matters. There is something that is distinctive about the assembly, especially as to the moral covering connected with it, which is indicated in the tabernacle; the different coverings, beginning with the badgers’ skins and goats’ hair, and then, inside, the veil — a very fine texture involving what is spiritually refined. The nearer we come to the presence of the Lord we have the more precious things, and we ought to be in keeping with all that in our minds, and attitude, and clothing.
Ques Is it instructive that the Lord Jesus, when He arose appeared to the disciples and His brethren, not to people at large in Jerusalem?
JT Just so; it was a secret matter; He was just risen from the dead, soon to go into heaven.
ANW Does the announcing mean that in eating and drinking we commit ourselves afresh inside, and that, in effect, has an outward bearing in testimony to the Lord’s death?
JT I think it has, but there is, in effect, a covering. The tabernacle involved that there is a certain protection, but then, that is a spiritual matter in ourselves;
[p. 26] we become more and more spiritual as we sit down together in assembly, because it is Zion in principle.
EMcK Is what is inside in mind in the Lord’s words, “I am coming to you”? John 14:18,28. Does that fit in?
JT It does fit in. It is His coming that has become familiar to us at the Lord’s supper. The coming in a public way is to be in mind, too, but the coming to us involves our being together. He is not in the room waiting for us, He comes to us as assembled.
JHE The disciples had the doors shut for fear of the Jews.
JT That was physical, of course, but then there is a covering in a spiritual sense; that is, our demeanour and attitude; what we are spiritually is included in what we are saying. It cannot be discerned by the natural eye, and it only points to the assembly and what is involved in christianity. How near to heaven we are in assembly; how near to heaven, and to God, and to the Godhead, too!
Ques If we are not experiencing that nearness are we subject to being deceived? In Ephesians and Galatians and Colossians Paul speaks of this matter as well as to the Thessalonians. That is, they were in danger of being led away as a prey, through philosophy, or by other means.
JT Yes. We are apt to imbibe wrong doctrine and take on wrong principles, and if we do we become opaque; the Spirit is hampered in us. The veil represents the finest material, but the badgers’ skins become a covering for what is of God. We have to be accustomed to what is spiritual. As coming to the assembly, are we opaque or transparent? If we are not transparent we are hampering the Spirit and missing the reality of the Lord’s presence, because He comes to us, and that is a wonderful thing. It is a thing to be looked for by us, and all these things enter into [p. 27] it.
FNW In Isaiah 4 the prophet speaks of the spirit of judgment and the spirit of burning, and then goes on to say, “And Jehovah will create over every dwelling-place of mount Zion, and over its convocations, a cloud by day and a smoke, and the brightness of a flame of fire by night: for over all the glory shall be a covering”, Isaiah 4:5.
JT Very good. We can only touch that at a meeting like this, because there is so much involved, but it is very precious to have the thought of it. “Over all the glory shall be a covering”, Isaiah 4:5. It would suggest to our hearts what is involved in the assembly and its gatherings. The Lord, we are told in Acts 1, was “assembled with them”, Acts 1:4. That is, He taught them how to assemble. Now we assemble and follow the word: “We being assembled to break bread”, Acts 20:7. We do that now, and He comes to us as assembled, but in Acts 1 He assembled with them, I would gather, to show them what the thing really meant; there would be help in how He conducted Himself at that time.
CN So we have the idea of the “minister of the holy places and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord has pitched, and not man”, Hebrews 8:2. That is really what we experience now.
JT That is what we are speaking of. We have in that chapter a summary of things. What he had written up to that chapter is summarised and made real to us in a spiritual way. “Now a summary of the things of which we are speaking is, We have such a one high priest who has sat down on the right hand of the throne of the greatness in the heavens; minister of the holy places and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord has pitched, and not man”, Hebrews 8:1,2. The great spiritual tabernacle is in mind.
CAM Would 1 Corinthians stress the covering? The badger skins, for example, would deal with any inroad of [p. 28] evil.
JT That is very good; I am afraid we come in with much that renders us opaque, whereas we should be crystal-like. We should be like a sea of glass, everything in the open, not in a public sense, but in the spiritual sense.
CAM In his second epistle the apostle seems to be free to talk about the house which is from heaven, as if he were emphasising, perhaps, the internal idea, and what it means to a priest to know the glory that is inside. And then the apostle refers to having been caught up. The glory side is in his mind in the second epistle.
JT Yes; and in chapter 3, he says, “But we all, looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face, are transformed according to the same image from glory to glory”, 2 Corinthians 3:18. I do not know that we have arrived at the teaching of the second epistle very much. We have, perhaps, reached the first epistle, but the second is the one in which we come to the glory.
TNW In His coming to us are we to think of Him as in His body of glory?
JT Just so; He does not come to us as He was during the forty days. That is another matter that should be touched on. He was here forty days after He arose before He went to heaven. I would say that whilst Christ does not come bodily, yet He comes to us as glorified. We are to be changed into the likeness of His body of glory; not what He was, although there cannot be much difference, and yet it is remarkable that there is a difference and that the Spirit of God stresses the idea of His body of glory, and that we are to have bodies like His body of glory. It is not the body in which He rose, simply, but His body of glory.
EMcK Does John 20 fit into that phase of the [p. 29] truth?
JT Yes; because He speaks, in John, of ascending. We have already spoken of what may be regarded as in principle and then what may be regarded as literality. John 20 would be, in principle, what we are speaking of. He told Mary, “Touch me not, for I have not yet ascended to my Father”, John 20:17. In John He is seen coming into the midst as coming in from heaven, not simply as risen. It is the ascended Man that comes in. Some years ago there was much said about the Lord being always in the midst. It brought out the question of the Lord coming to us; not that He is always in the midst, but He comes to us, and how He comes to us is the next thing. Is it simply as risen, or is it as glorified? It is a very beautiful and important distinction, that it is as glorified that He comes to us, and as glorified we are to be like Him for eternity. What we are saying is of prime importance as to finality. The final thought of God is Christ glorified, and our part in it will be as glorified too; not simply as risen but glorified.
AR All we should need is a change in our bodies, as assembled at the Supper.
JT Quite so.
Ques In 2 Corinthians 3, it says, “But we all, looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face, are transformed according to the same image from glory to glory”, 2 Corinthians 3:18. Is the apostle referring to the saints as gathered?
JT Yes; I think he is alluding to the assembly service, what is possible in assembly service now.
CAM Have you not said that the Lord comes in in persons? It is not a question of the room, but of persons. I think that is one of the most illuminating things that could be said in this connection.
JT Yes. He comes in in persons. He says, “I will not leave you orphans, I am coming to you”, John 14:18. So that He comes from heaven; not simply as risen but from heaven.
CAM [p. 30] Is not our apprehension of the Lord most important? It is a collective idea. There is a glory, and is not that glory present because of the ability with the saints to take in the Lord’s personal glory? Is that not essential?
JT It is. We would have to distinguish between what is current now in virtue of the presence of the Spirit of God in us in the assembly and what will be eternally. I would say that what is present now has to be regarded by itself. It is a provisional possibility, whereas when we come to eternity we come to fixedness. It is not dependent on conditions; not dependent on our own conditions or even the presence of the Holy Spirit among us. Eternal fixedness is eternal but assembly matters now and assembly privileges are variable. It raises the whole question of what is possible in the period of the assembly’s sojourn on earth; how the service of God applies and how it can be carried on. It is one of the greatest things, but it is a provisional thing.
Rem “I am coming to you” John 14:18 refers in its entirety to the present dispensation?
JT It does.
Rem In John 14, before the Lord says, “I am coming to you”, He refers to the coming of the Comforter. Would not the presence of the Spirit make possible the conditions of which you are speaking?
JT Just so; one of the disciples asks, “How is it that thou wilt manifest thyself to us and not to the world?” John 14:22. The Lord says, “If anyone love me, he will keep my word”, John 14:23. All that would be characterised as provisional, involving assembly privileges.
DMacd I would like to understand more clearly how the Lord comes to us. It is not corporeally, but does He come in Spirit or in persons?
JT At the beginning the Lord actually appeared to them. “It is I myself”, Luke 24:39. And He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve, and to above five hundred [p. 31] brethren at once, and to others. All these were corporeal appearings, but that did not continue. Paul mentions them in 1 Corinthians 15. They were miraculous. But when you come to what we are speaking of now as to assembly privilege, it is not miraculous; it is what is possible in a spiritual way while we are assembled. That the Lord can come to us, is a question of our spiritual ability to discern Him, and so we often say, “It is the Lord”, John 21:7 but we do not mean it is the Lord corporeally, but that He is there spiritually and we enjoy Him there. It is a real Person. You could not point Him out as another in the company. It is something that has to be kept in our minds as inscrutable. We can speak of it but it is inscrutable. No one can define it and yet the Lord is really there.
Ques “In his shadow have I rapture and sit down”, Song of Songs 2:3. Is that suitable in the morning meeting?
JT I think it is, only whatever you get in the Old Testament has to be somewhat augmented to bring in New Testament conditions. It is important to bear in mind that there is a difference between what is provisional and what is eternal and final. There is what is provisional that the Lord affords to us to support us in the meantime, but it is not finality, because we return to our ordinary conditions.
EEH Would this matter of the Lord coming in be discerned by something being expressed? Should something be said that would bring the Lord livingly before the saints at the Supper?
JT Something might be said, and it might not be. We are dealing with spiritual matters and we must admit we are not very much up to the thought of spirituality. The apostle speaks about persons who are spiritual and perhaps none of us can say very much on that, but it is a great thing to have the idea. God has given us minds capable of taking in ideas, and the idea in itself is profitable in a practical [p. 32] way to us. The more spiritual we are the more the thing may happen. We will say, “It is the Lord”, John 21:7. At that particular time we really feel the Lord is there. That is quite possible, but it is spiritual, it is not material.
Rem On Lord’s day morning we often say that we welcome the Lord in our midst. We must be in a spiritual condition to be able to say that.
JT The Lord knows what we mean and how to appreciate it. In the full sense there may be very little, but the Lord knows how to appreciate it and would give us to know that He knows it and values it; but we are dealing with spiritual matters.
Ques Is the Lord’s presence confined to our morning meetings or does He have liberty to come into a meeting like this?
JT I think He does. I do not think the appearings referred to in 1 Corinthians 15 are limited to the Supper.
AR How do you view the passage, “In the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises”? Hebrews 2:12.
JT That bears on assembly service. I do not think the allusion there is to what is in eternity. The Lord is dealing with what would be a part of assembly service in the interim between the time of the Spirit’s coming and the time of the Lord’s coming — what happens while the Spirit is here. So much can happen in virtue of the presence of the Spirit. The Lord can be here in virtue of that presence.
RWS Do you differentiate between the glory attaching to the Lord’s coming in at the Supper and the way He might come into a gathering of this character?
JT I would not like to say much because the Lord is so good and gracious. He might show Himself at a great crisis of the truth. He may come in to confirm what is right. He might make Himself so [p. 33] visible, spiritually, as to confirm the matter once for all. I have known that.
FHL Like the glory appearing at the door of the tent of meeting in Exodus 33:9?
JT It is just that.
APf “But the Lord stood with me”, 2 Timothy 4:17.
JT Yes; Paul says, “At my first defence no man stood with me, but all deserted me. May it not be imputed to them. But the Lord stood with me, and gave me power, that through me the proclamation might be fully made”, 2 Timothy 4:16,17. That was a special matter in defence of the truth. That could happen at any time, in principle. And every right person would say ‘The matter is settled for me; it is no question of doctrine, but the presence of the Lord’. The Lord’s presence was there and there could be no question raised about it.
RWS Could we assume that, under normal conditions, the Lord comes in at the breaking of the bread?
JT I would say that, but there might be a low, weak condition at any time and you may have to question if the Lord was there. The Lord’s coming to us depends on conditions. We cannot just take it for granted.
TEH Is it right to say that if evil is judged the Lord will be with us?
JT Yes.
Ques Does He make His presence known to the whole company or to individuals?
JT Normally, it is collective. “Above five hundred brethren at once” 1 Corinthians 15:6 would mean they were all conscious of it.
Well, we did not get to the subject that was in mind primarily, but I think we got to what the Lord had in mind for us.
RWS It would be helpful if you would tell us what was in your mind in respect to the man of [p. 34] sin.
JT We would hardly have time. It says, “Let not anyone deceive you in any manner, because it will not be unless the apostasy have first come, and the man of sin have been revealed, the son of perdition; who opposes and exalts himself on high against all called God, or object of veneration; so that he himself sits down in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God”. All this has to happen, according to what the apostle says. The terrible consequences are spoken of in the book of Revelation. It will mean the overthrow of the whole present system of the world.
ANW While we are conscious that the apostasy is working we know that while there is restraint the end has not come.
JT That is right; it is very comforting that there is “he who restrains” and “that which restrains”. There are two elements. One might be government and the other the Spirit in the assembly, but they restrain the coming of the man of sin. It is comforting that we can have meetings like this today. We could not have them if the man of sin were here.
Ques Does the “last hour” 1 John 2:18 mentioned by John cover the period from his day down to now?
JT Just so; that shows how heaven reckons things. This which Paul says of the man of sin had already begun to work, and it is still working, only it is under restraint. God is keeping it in check that the saints may be able to carry on. The Spirit of God is sufficient to help us, and government, too, so that we can carry on. We should keep on praying to God, in our meetings for prayer and generally, that these conditions may continue and that the truth may continue to be opened up to us.
AR Will the presence of the antichrist overthrow governments?
JT I suppose what is in Satan’s mind is to set aside what is of Christ — the Anointed.
[p. 35] Ques Was this spirit seen in Absalom when he stole the hearts of the men of Israel?
JT It was the spirit of antichrist. However, this is more anti-God. He sits down in the temple of God, “shewing himself that he is God”.
JHP “And now ye know that which restrains, that he should be revealed in his own time”. Does that suggest knowledge and spiritual perception amongst the saints?
JT Yes; the saints are to know. The apostles had said certain things to them but I think he alludes to their spiritual intelligence. And we may say that we know now. There are two elements that are restraining. Some of us recall how, in the terrible years of the war, there was a restraining power that kept things back or we would have the man of sin present, because he is already here, in principle.
Ques May we expect, during the time that the assembly is here, that lawlessness will not get the upper hand over government?
JT I think that would be right.