READINGS IN JOHN'S GOSPEL (5)
READINGS IN JOHN’S GOSPEL (5)
JT It is hoped that we shall be free to touch on the means of discerning divine Persons as they speak so as to be able to name Them as they speak. I believe this chapter is peculiarly fitted for this subject. It has come home to us, I think, in recent times that God intends that He should be known in the Persons who are in the Godhead, that is to say, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. We are baptized to that Name, to the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit; so that They are to be known. The Name put upon us as baptized is that we might know the Persons, be able to identify Them.
CHH Has it not been said that in John’s writings it is at times hard to distinguish the Persons? It often requires spirituality to distinguish the Speaker.
JT Well, the pronouns are sometimes indefinite, especially in the epistles; but the indefiniteness implies that the Spirit of God is quite well aware that the indefiniteness is there, but that His thoughts and intents challenge our understanding; the intent is not to leave us in laziness as to matters, but that we should be alert and understand, and compare spiritual things with spiritual. Paul said, “Think of what I say, for the Lord will give thee understanding in all things”, 2 Timothy 2:7. The great lack is in understanding, and in comparing what is said and evaluating the words used.
SP Does the middle of verse 9 have a particular bearing on the truth for the moment and on what you are saying? “Am I so long a time with you, and thou hast not known me, Philip?”
JT That bears on it exactly. One marvels at oneself as to how long one has been looking into the truth and seeking to tell others of it and yet how little one knows. I think this would apply to every [p. 391] one of us perhaps; how little we know relative to the time expended by us on acquiring knowledge, on learning; and so I think Nathanael is intended to show how quickly we should learn, whereas Nicodemus was a slow learner. We should see which class we belong to, whether we belong to the Nathanael class or the Nicodemus class, because it is a time of learning and we have very little time, too; the time is short.
JRH Does that show the importance of so yielding ourselves to divine Persons that the works of God might be manifest in us? The man we were reading of in John 9 was a quick learner.
JT Quite so. He learned as opportunity offered and answered questions, showing that he is ready for instruction too. He is able to record what happened to him, but then he is able to add things that throw light on the whole subject.
SMcC When the Lord was here, the Father was here as He refers to it in this portion; and the Spirit was there too in the Lord Jesus. Is it not somewhat the same now? The Spirit being here, the Father is to be discerned too, and the Lord, in their particular activities.
JT Well, you see how they are grouped here in verse 15, “If ye love me, keep my commandments”, the Lord says. “And I will beg the Father, and he will give you another Comforter”; that is, the three Persons are there in the passage; They are grouped together. And then He proceeds, “That he may be with you for ever, the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see him nor know him; but ye know him” — that is objective knowledge; it is outside of us, not learned within us but outside of us — “For he abides with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you orphans, I am coming to you. [p. 401] Yet a little and the world sees me no longer; but ye see me; because I live ye also shall live. In that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you”.
[p. 392] So that the way of knowledge is clearly marked out and particularly the knowledge of divine Persons. The chapter is full of it.
CHH So that in verse 21 of chapter 17 He says, “As thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us”, John 17:21. Would that be the result of it?
JT Very good.
RWS Is it right to connect the fulness of the Godhead with the Spirit? I am thinking of Colossians where we have the statement, “For in him all the fulness of the Godhead was pleased to dwell” Colossians 1:19 in chapter 1, and in chapter 2, “For in him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily”, Colossians 2:9.
JT “Of the Godhead” is not in the original in chapter 1: ‘in him all the fulness was pleased to dwell’. Colossians 1:19 What is your point?
RWS Can fulness now be connected with the Spirit here below?
JT I would say so fully. “All the fulness” includes the Spirit, the three divine Persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, All dwelling in the Lord Jesus as incarnate, known as a Man here. That is a very important matter to keep before us, that “in him all the fulness ... was pleased to dwell”. The idea of “bodily” is in chapter 2 where it is repeated, so that things are brought near to us in the Lord Jesus “bodily”, that is to say, as incarnate.
SMcC Is it right in the presence of the Spirit now to think of the fulness of the Godhead being here, near to us? You are alluding to the fulness connected with the Lord as Man here, and Colossians 2; of course, alluding to Him as Man in His present position. Is it right to think of the fulness as linked with the Spirit’s presence now that the Lord is on high?
JT I think so. “In him all the fulness ... was pleased to dwell”; Colossians 1:19 that is the past tense. But in chapter 2 it is, “For in him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily”; Colossians 2:9 that is the present time. The presence of the Holy Spirit is included in that; the Spirit is included in the fulness. And so you have the question of tense, as, for instance, in Revelation 1: “From him who is, and who was, and who is to come”; Revelation 1:8 if we say “who was”, that is the past; and “who is to come” is the future; and “who is” is the present.
SMcC One is just interested in what is linked with the Spirit’s presence here below, the marvellous character of things that is linked with His presence.
JTJr In Acts 2 the thought is that the house is filled.
JT Quite so, the sound filled the house.
JTJr “And there came suddenly a sound out of heaven as of a violent impetuous blowing, and filled all the house where they were sitting”, Acts 2:2. Would not that be the idea of the fulness in the Spirit here?
JT Well, it is a question of what entered into the sound that filled the house. The disciples were all there and where they were sitting the house was filled.
JTJr I thought it would mean that the Spirit being here the whole fulness would be here in the way He came in.
JT That would be so because the Spirit had come in. The Lord Jesus had gone up into heaven; He had been there for ten days clearly, and then something happened, the sound coming out, and that sound implied that the Spirit had come in, and tongues of fire sat upon each of them. Each one was affected; it was a great matter. You might say the whole universe is in question, but it came in amongst the disciples where they were sitting and the sound carried it. It came from heaven, it was a sound up [p. 394] there. Then we have the idea of light, but first it is a question of the sound and what it might have carried.
JTJr I had in mind that the idea of the Spirit coming in would be the fulness, that everything would be here.
JT That is equivalent to what has been remarked; that is to say the sound would carry all that with it. But then we have, as it were, to dissolve the whole matter humbly, and see what is what, what can be stated of it, what has come in; because you also have a material thought: “And there appeared to them parted tongues, as of fire, and it sat upon each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues as the Spirit gave to them to speak forth”, Acts 2:3,4. Now we are getting the matter brought out in detail as to what has happened; the sound carried it primarily, but it has to be worked out in each one of them. Each person was implied.
JTJr The Spirit is alluded to, therefore, definitely. It says, “And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues”.
JT That is how the thing began to take form — substantial, intelligible form — when they began to speak.
JTJr “As the Spirit”, that is, the Spirit is viewed there personally.
JT Quite so. But then there is actual detail, because things are going to be broken up for us in the presence of the Spirit and the speaking comes out through the apostles as they were sitting there. So that it was the inauguration of christianity you might say.
JRH Would Mr. Darby’s footnote in Colossians 2:10 help in this matter? “Ye are complete in him”, Colossians 2:10 and the note says, “Or ‘filled full’, referring to all fulness being in him. The fulness or completeness of the Godhead is in Christ, as towards us; and we, as towards God, are complete in him”.
[p. 395] JT Well, the fulness referring to us is what is by the Spirit, but the fulness that was in Christ is infinite; the fulness, without saying what it was, is just infinite. But then we are filled full; that is limited, that is in creatures. We are filled full in Him and that, of course, would be subjectively by the Spirit.
BT In Genesis 24 in speaking of the servant it says, “All the treasure of his master was under his hand”, Genesis 24:10. Is that a link with the fulness in relation to us?
JT Very good, “All the treasure of his master”; he was the chief servant of Abraham and all that Abraham had was under his hand. His name is not mentioned; it is a question of the Holy Spirit, but all was under his hand. It is very important for all that to come into this idea of fulness.
EAL Referring back to Acts 2, it says in verse 2, “And there came suddenly a sound out of heaven as of a violent impetuous blowing, and filled all the house where they were sitting”, Acts 2:2. The footnote to “blowing” says, ‘It is not “wind”, but they heard blowing, as of hard breathing, for which the Greek is used’. In previous ministry we have had that that is evidently the personal work and the breathing of the Spirit, personalising this wind or the blowing. Does that help in connection with what we were saying?
JT Yes, the reference really is to the lungs; the human body is in mind, and it is a question of breath, of blowing. It comes through the lungs. It is a very touching matter; we can hardly speak freely about it because of using the word ‘lungs’ in regard of God, but that is really what is in mind, that the blowing was of that kind. It was felt and heard. It filled all the house, showing that what happened was really of universal importance, infinite importance,
[p. 396] and it means the inauguration of christianity. That is what it means in detail and things began to take form when the apostles began to speak. When they began to speak, things began to be intelligible.
EAL So the felt presence and influence of a divine Person entirely controlled everyone there?
JT That is just what happened.
SP Could we bring in what Paul speaks of as the distinction of sounds in Corinthians and the power of the sounds? While it is in another connection, yet there is the thought of the distinguishing feature of it and the power that followed it. I wondered if you could bring that in here as being in the spiritual realm and thus distinguishing things and the power of them.
JT I think that is a very good remark. So that in this chapter as to divine Persons, it is a question of our learning to distinguish sounds and the Persons implied in the sounds.
SMcC The Lord Jesus says in our chapter, “He that has seen me has seen the Father”. There was the perfect representation of the Father there. It would be right, would it not, to think of the same now, that the Spirit might represent the Father or the Son at a given time?
JT It is true that the medium is the Spirit; the Father and the Son of course are above; the Spirit is below. The Spirit is here in wonderful condescension to be, as it were, at Their bidding, because as He hears He speaks. So that all the things that are brought out now are in the power of the Spirit, and for us it is a question therefore of being able to discern in what the Spirit would say, whether it is the Father speaking or the Spirit speaking or the Son speaking. Therefore the idea of discernment comes in and it is a question of whether we can discern and come to a knowledge of the divine Persons as They are [p. 397] seen in this chapter.
CHH Would that be seen in Acts 5? Peter says, “Why has Satan filled thy heart that thou shouldest lie to the Holy Spirit?”, Acts 5:3. And later he says, “Thou hast not lied to men, but to God”, Acts 5:4. He is associating the Holy Spirit with God.
JT Just so, the Holy Spirit is God. Therefore it would be the Holy Spirit Himself speaking, and speaking as God.
DMacD Would it also be seen in Acts 11? Peter says, “And the Spirit said to me”, Acts 11:12. He discerned who was speaking to him.
JT Quite so; in chapter 10 I think he speaks to the Spirit in that same sense as Lord.
RWS Is it possible to distinguish which divine Person is speaking to us individually or is it a collective idea?
JT I think it is possible because Romans 8 says that “the Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit”, Romans 8:16. It implies that we discern that it is the Spirit speaking with our spirit, saying that we are children of God. That is discernible. Do you follow what I am saying?
RWS I think I follow but I do not know how to distinguish myself.
JT Well, I am prepared to say the same thing, only that I see the thing is distinguishable. It is not what you or I may know of himself, but what is true, what is possible. So Romans 8 says, “The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are children of God”, Romans 8:16. That must be intelligible to us, that we know inwardly that we are witnessed to as the children of God by the Holy Spirit.
JTJr So in the same chapter it says, “As many as are led by the Spirit of God”, Romans 8:14 which would allude to an inward understanding of the Spirit, and that He would lead you even to making a remark in a meeting.
JT [p. 398] Quite so.
CTJr Is there a link with Revelation 1 where it says, “I became in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a great voice as of a trumpet”? Revelation 1:10. And later it says, “And I turned back to see the voice which spoke with me”, Revelation 1:12.
JT That fits in exactly with what we are talking about. Notice the word ‘see’ as applied to a voice; that shows what we are speaking of — that John could discern things. He talked with the voice and we are told what the voice was.
CAM So that it would involve the direction of the voice, would it not? He was looking at the assemblies from a certain viewpoint, but the divine thought would be to look at them in another way, in a scrutinising way, would you say? The direction in which he was looking in a spiritual way was changed by the hearing of the voice.
JT That is true. John says, “I turned back to see the voice” and then he tells us what he saw. “I saw seven golden lamps”, Revelation 1:12 and the Lord Jesus, the Son of man, was in the midst of them, of the seven assemblies in other words. He really saw the seven assemblies in figure and then he saw the Lord Jesus speaking in the midst of them.
CAM So that his turning back would give another view; would you say that?
JT John would have another view. But he turned back to see the voice; really he was to see what voice it was. Can we decide what voice it was? It goes on to speak of the Son of man being clothed with a garment and describes His appearance, His head and His hair; but then it speaks of His feet “like fine brass, as burning in a furnace; and his voice as the voice of many waters”, Revelation 1:15. This is a different voice altogether from the one John had known. There is a great fulness in this passage, and it has to be opened up to get what is meant. The Lord Jesus is in mind there, but He is in mind in a [p. 399] judicial character; He is going to deal judicially, it is a judicial voice.
CT Would the thought in Acts 20 where the apostle says, “The Holy Spirit testifies to me in every city”, Acts 20:23 enter into this question as to a voice?
JT “The Holy Spirit testifies to me in every city, saying that bonds and tribulations await me”, Acts 20:23 that is what Paul said. He tells us what he understood by it, that the Holy Spirit was saying this to warn him that bonds and afflictions awaited him.
RWS Is the voice which John turned back to see the voice of the Lord in discriminating judgment amongst the assemblies?
JT Quite so, it is a judicial voice. It is the Lord speaking judicially because He is dealing with the assemblies judicially.
EAL Would you say that the word ‘see’ is used here to stress that John distinguished the Person behind the voice? As influenced by one divine Person he was in the Spirit and could detect Another who was speaking.
JT Well, he could; but then it was not the voice he was accustomed to when the Lord Jesus was here in the midst of the disciples. It was not that voice, it was a judicial voice, although He had spoken judicially when He was here; but now He is peculiarly judicial because the failure of the church has already begun, and the Lord is starting to deal with it.
RWS All that would make John’s recognition of that voice all the more remarkable.
JT Quite so. It was the voice of the Son of man, really, but then it was in a judicial sense and His garments are in keeping with that.
BW This voice was to John, but then it says the Spirit speaks to the assemblies.
JT In the letters to the assemblies there would be what the Lord said in the first part, but then the Lord says further, “He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies”. But then the Lord had said something before. We cannot tell what the Spirit says because it covers the whole dispensation, but what the Lord says is specified.
SMcC In John 14 the Lord says, “I am in the Father, and ... the Father is in me”. How do you understand that? Is it an allusion to the perfect state of love between divine Persons?
JT Well, I suppose we have to say it is really inscrutable. We cannot assume to understand fully. All these things are inscrutable, how the Father is acting through the Son and the Son acting through the Father, and the Son representing the Father. Anyone who sees the Son sees the Father, so that is inscrutable because They are two Persons; the Father and the Son are two Persons; They are not one. We are dealing with inscrutable things and peculiarly so in John’s gospel.
AR “He that has seen me has seen the Father”. Was the Spirit there also?
JT The Spirit is not mentioned there. The two Persons are mentioned, the Father and the Son.
AR I was thinking of what it says, “For in him all the fulness of the Godhead was pleased to dwell”, Colossians 1:19.
JT Yes, but we are speaking of another thing now. We are speaking of the Father and the Son. We are saying things that are designated of Them and the Spirit is not mentioned at all. Do you mean that the Spirit may have been there? Well, He may have been, but I think we should confine ourselves to the actual Persons mentioned.
JRH Do you look at verse 20 as conveying what is inscrutable also?
JT “In that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you”. All these things are inscrutable but there is something we are to know about them “in that day”. In verse 19 it says,
“Yet a little and the world sees me no longer; but ye see me; because I live ye also shall live. In that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you”. Well, that is all wonderful. It is absolutely true and it means enjoyment, wonderful enjoyment, wonderful privilege. We cannot speak of it as we speak of two or three men, we are speaking of divine Persons all of which are beyond us, are inscrutable. Yet there is something to know about Them, “Ye shall know”; there is something to know about Them that we can compass.
JRH In verse 10 it is a matter of faith: “Believest thou not that I am in the Father and that the Father is in me?”. But in verse 20 it is a matter of knowledge. Does it link up with chapter 6, “We have believed and known”? John 6:69.
JT Quite so, “We have believed and known that thou art the holy one of God”. That is what they had learned by experience. It had become common knowledge, you might say, or an article of faith amongst them.
AP Does “In that day” suppose the Spirit’s day? Would it be implied that the knowledge of the Father was in Him and He in the Father? Would it be the thought of the service of the Holy Spirit to unfold this to us?
JT That is very good, because it is the Spirit’s day we are dealing with. It is a feature of John’s gospel, it is the time of the Spirit. It says in chapter 7, “The Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified”, John 7:39. Now that is a remarkable thing, “The Spirit was not yet” it says; but what is meant in this chapter is that the Spirit is, He has come, He has actually come. The Lord says here that He is going to send Him and all this will come out when He comes. “Another Comforter” He is called, distinct from the Lord [p. 402] Himself.
WL Would you say that verse 18 would work out at the present time? If so, in what way?
JT “I will not leave you orphans, I am coming to you”. We quote that on the Lord’s day morning many times, meaning that it is a provision at the present time for making up to us the full thought of the divine Presence. “I will not leave you orphans, I am coming to you”, He says, meaning that He will not leave us in that state but He will come to us, and the orphaned condition ceases when He comes to us. That is available to us, we might say, every Lord’s day, every first day of the week.
WL So that you have in mind that it is not the Spirit personally, it is the Lord personally that we would recognise?
JT That is the idea, that the Lord comes and He comes through the medium of the Spirit. It is true that before the Spirit came the Lord was known amongst them; before He went up to heaven the Lord was amongst them; but now that He has gone up to heaven and the Spirit has come down one would expect that the medium would be the Spirit, that the Lord would make Himself known by the Spirit. So He comes to us in that sense.
SP In verse 17 it says, speaking of the Comforter, “Ye know him, for he abides with you, and shall be in you”. Then in verse 23, speaking of the Father, it says, “We will come to him and make our abode with him”. Are those two distinct things?
JT These are all wonderful things, but they are wonderful as inscrutable. For instance, take verse 23: “If anyone love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our abode with him”. Now that is not said of a company, it is said of a person, showing how all this wonderful privilege can be brought down to one person. Then if we were twenty persons or one hundred persons, how great a thing it would [p. 403] be!
JF What is the thought in “that they also may be one in us”, John 17:21?
JT That the thing might work out in us, “they” referring to the saints, that the idea of unity might work out in us but in that sense, “one in us” — one in the Father and the Son, showing how wonderful the privilege is that is in mind in this chapter.
FES Is this inquiry in relation to distinguishing the voices limited to what is recorded in the Scriptures, or have you in mind what is present?
JT It is a question of the voice of the Spirit; the Scriptures have a voice but it is not the same as the Spirit’s voice. The Spirit has His own voice, which is what is chiefly in mind; but there is the voice of the Scriptures too; and then as to circumstances, we often say, ‘There is a voice to us’, in this and that.
AB Is there a difference between the Comforter mentioned here and the Holy Spirit mentioned in Luke 12: “For the Holy Spirit shall teach you in the hour itself what should be said”? Luke 12:12 That is good, I am glad you brought that up; it makes it very practical. “In the hour itself”, at that time the Holy Spirit will help us, tell us what to say. That is a provision for us in a time of suffering and trial; so that the Spirit’s voice is clearly discernible in that He teaches us in that trying hour.
GL Could we link this with the scripture in Isaiah, “And the Lord will give you the bread of adversity, and the water of oppression; yet thy teachers shall not be hidden any more, but thine eyes shall see thy teachers. And when ye turn to the right hand or when ye turn to the left, thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it”, Isaiah 30:20,21.
JT Just so. That is something that happens. A voice behind you, “This is the way”; it is very similar to the incident we have been speaking of in Revelation 1. A voice behind us — but what does the voice say there? It is, “This is the way, walk ye in it”; Isaiah 30:21 but in Revelation 1 it is the Lord Jesus Himself speaking but He is speaking in the midst of the assemblies in a judicial way. It is not to point out the way but to speak judicially, that is to say, judgment is implied in it.
P In Acts 10 the Holy Spirit seems to identify Himself with the angel. In verse 20 He says to Peter, “Behold, three men seek thee; but rise up, go down, and go with them, nothing doubting, because I have sent them”; Acts 10:20 but in the first verses of the chapter it says it is an angel. Then in verse 30 Cornelius says, “A man stood before me”, Acts 10:30. Would you help as to that?
JT Peter is sent by the Spirit, is he not? Not by the voice of angels but by the Spirit’s own voice.
P Yes, but in verse 3 it says he “saw plainly in a vision, about the ninth hour of the day, an angel of God coming unto him, and saying to him, Cornelius. But he, having fixed his eyes upon him, and become full of fear, said, What is it, Lord?”, Acts 10:3,4. And then the Holy Spirit speaks of having sent the men in verse 20.
JT That is to say, there are two agencies; one is an angel that came to Cornelius first, but then when Peter had to be sent it was not by an angel, it was by the Spirit Himself.
P I wanted to know how it is that the Holy Spirit identifies Himself as having spoken to the men when it begins with the angel who advised Cornelius that he was to send the men to Joppa to fetch Peter.
JT But then the Spirit Himself gives authority to Peter to go, directs him to go, that is to say, it is the Spirit’s voice now directing Peter to go. “I have sent them”, He says. The agencies of that chapter are very remarkable; there are various agencies that are used in the services. The Spirit Himself is used in the services, speaking to this one and [p. 405] that one.
WL Do we see in these things that God is One, and that divine Persons in Their movements are moving in perfect consonance with each other?
JT Quite so. God is the source of all, He is the great source of everything; everything proceeds from Him. As we had it yesterday, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth”, Genesis 1:1. “In the beginning God”; God is the source of everything and the Author of everything and the Agent of everything. Therefore if we speak of God we must imply that we speak of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. There is only one God, and furthermore God is one, and the Mediator of God and men one, the Man Christ Jesus. 1 Timothy 2:5.
JLP We have had much before us in previous readings on the thought of love as in the family and a good deal of love enters into our present chapter, love for the Father and love for the Son. Do you think the Holy Spirit has been waiting for us to be developed in love in relation to Himself, and that as we thus love all three divine Persons the intelligence to which we referred earlier in knowing how to address Them would follow easily, so that it would not be a burden to us?
JT Quite so. The question is now how we are to reach our object in getting into the truth of the Spirit as we see Him here in this chapter, how He is here, what He is here for and what He is doing for us. The Lord has opened up the truth as to Him, and the question is how much we shall get out of it.
JRH This promise of the Comforter is linked up by the Lord with the obedience of love, verse 15, “If ye love me, keep my commandments”.
JT Very good. The Lord says, “If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will beg the Father, and he will give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever, the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see him nor know him; but ye know him, for he abides with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you orphans, I am coming to you. Yet a little and the world sees me no longer; but ye see me; because I live ye also shall live”.
[p. 406] The Lord is encouraging the brethren to expect things from Him and especially that the Father is going to send the Spirit. The Father Himself is going to do it in answer to the Lord’s own request.
RWS In verse 16 the Lord calls Him “another Comforter” and “the Spirit of truth”; and in verse 26, “the Comforter, the Holy Spirit”. Would that mean that this title “Comforter” is very distinguished; a title, shall I say, elevated, and high on the list of all the titles of the Spirit? We had the confessing of Jesus as the Son of God as if that was a very elevated title. Is the thought of “Comforter” a very elevated and comforting thought for us?
JT I think it is intended to be that here; I think it is intended to be a formal title of the Spirit of God; that is to say, One who takes charge of all our affairs here on earth. It is a very high title and we ought to know it and count on the Comforter being available to us, to look after things spiritually as to us.
AR As to this matter of knowing Him, it says in verse 17, “Ye know him, for he abides with you, and shall be in you”. Do you think our difficulty is that we do not know Him enough objectively? We can all say that we know Him in His inward workings; we can say, “Lord Jesus” by His help, we can say, “Abba, Father” by His help; but our difficulty is that we do not know Him enough objectively.
JT That is good. We had readings in Toronto to bring out that thought, how the Spirit of God is apprehended objectively in the book of Acts. It is wrought out, I believe, through what the Lord is giving us now, bringing out clearly amongst us the [p. 407] value and activities and operations of the Spirit of God, and they are all available to us.
AP Does the Lord in His ministry in these chapters pave the way for the extensive service of the Holy Spirit, both in relation to the Father and in relation to Himself?
JT I think that is what this chapter is intended for, that the Spirit is to be apprehended objectively as the Father and the Son are apprehended objectively. We are to apprehend Him operating by Himself as we have seen in Acts 10: He said to Peter in regard to the men, “I have sent them”, Acts 10:20. He told Peter to go with the men, nothing doubting, for He had sent them; a very great matter. That is objective action on the part of the Spirit to direct Peter as to what to do.
AR When I say, “Lord Jesus”, am I not speaking to Him objectively? And when I say, “Abba, Father”, am I not doing the same thing?
JT Quite so. If you are speaking to the Father or the Lord Jesus that is objective; but then you can, in the same sense, speak to the Spirit objectively.
AR I was thinking that it would help us all to speak to divine Persons objectively; it would help us to speak to the Spirit Himself objectively?
JT Just so, the Spirit Himself.
SMcC It is interesting to see the affecting link between the Lord on high managing our affairs and the Spirit here below managing our affairs, the wonderful character of these mediatorial activities.
JT And both Persons with the same title; that is to say, the Lord Jesus is a priest on high, but He is there too in the sense of a Paraclete; and that same word that is used of Him in the epistle of John is used of the Spirit here. There are two activities, one by the Lord in heaven and the other by the Spirit here on earth; they are both Paracletes, both serving in the same [p. 408] sense.
SP Is there any suggestion of this in verse 31 of Acts 9, “The assemblies then throughout the whole of Judaea and Galilee and Samaria had peace, being edified and walking in the fear of the Lord, and were increased through the comfort of the Holy Spirit”? Acts 9:31.
JT There you have the comfort of the Holy Spirit, a very precious thought.
AH Is that why He says, “Another Comforter”, another one like Jesus?
JT Exactly. They are both under the same head; Jesus is a Comforter and so is the Spirit a Comforter.
CT Is that why He opens John 14 by saying, “Let not your heart be troubled”, having in mind this thought of the Comforter?
JT Just so. “Let not your heart be troubled; ye believe on God, believe also on me. In my Father’s house there are many abodes; were it not so, I had told you: for I go to prepare you a place”. The whole thought in this wonderful chapter is to open up comfort for the saints.
FES In referring to the Spirit as we know Him, would you in any way bring in the way the Lord Jesus, as having become a man, has been the great One to be the manifestation?
JT That is a good word to use, because the word ‘manifested’ is used in the last chapters of this gospel: “Jesus manifested himself”, John 21:1. It is a question now of what we can discern in Jesus, because He is the only One of the Deity that has taken a human form, and we are to learn everything from Him. He is the One that reveals; the Father is revealed by Him, the Spirit too is revealed by Him, but the revelation is in Christ, the One who became Man. Therefore it is a question of our learning from the Lord as to how to know the Spirit. “Ye know him, for he abides with you, and shall be in you”; that is what [p. 409] the Lord says.
FES Does that give point then to “another Comforter”?
JT Just so. It is the same kind of person. You can learn the meaning of it through the One or the Other. The word ‘Comforter’ covers both.
AR Is that what is meant when it says, “The Spirit joins also its help to our weakness”? Romans 8:26.
JT Just so. The Comforter does, the Spirit does. He joins Himself to our infirmities.
SMcC In Genesis before the period of faith, in type, is finished, before the cover is lifted off the ark, you have a remarkable allusion to Noah and the dove and the peculiar link between Noah and the dove. Would there be a reference in that type to the present moment, the peculiar interest and link between the Lord and the Spirit in regard to the completing of the dispensation?
JT I think so. In fact I have thought all along that the thought of John 1 is taken from that chapter in Genesis, the relation between Noah and the dove. It is worked out from that in the way the Lord is manifested. The Spirit comes upon Him in the form of a dove, and John the baptist says, “And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God”; John 1:34 he is bearing record because of the way the Spirit has come on Christ, how the dove acts toward Him, because He came in that form on Jesus. The idea of the dove is seen in Noah first and worked out in the New Testament in the way that the Spirit of God comes on Jesus.
JF Would there be a link with spiritual manifestations? We get the Lord manifesting forth His glory and manifesting the Father, and then in relation to the gifts we get spiritual manifestations.
JT I think it is just the difference between revelation and what is manifested, what is open, what can be discerned by the eye. The word ‘manifestation’ is very much used by [p. 410] John.
JF I wondered if the operation of the gifts would be a help to us in relation to learning more as to the Spirit.
JT In what they do and say. It is a question of our discerning what comes out in the ministry, what men of gift or ability, that the Lord has given, do and say. We see what is going on, but the Spirit is in all that. That is how we come to know Him.
JRHJr Why does the Lord continually amplify this matter of the Comforter in detail, as He says in verse 16, “And I will beg the Father, and he will give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever, the Spirit of truth”; and then in verse 26, “The Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name”; and then again in chapter 15 he refers to Him, “But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes forth from with the Father”, John 15:26. Then again in chapter 16 he speaks of the Comforter in verse 7 and continues in verse 13, “But when he is come, the Spirit of truth”, John 15:13. Why does the Lord continually emphasise this matter as to who the Comforter is?
JT Well, it is clear that He is taking great pains to call attention to this glorious Person, that we should know Him. The Lord has in His mind at this particular juncture to bring out this great truth as to the Spirit. Is all this not to remind us that there are so many distinctive things to be noticed as to His Person? And let us begin to notice them. How are they noticeable in the persons who minister? We see how they do things, the Lord helping them, so that we gradually come to know that that is suggestive of the Spirit of God, nothing less than that.
AB Reference was made to 1 Corinthians 14. It says in verse 10, “There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of undistinguishable sound”, 1 Corinthians 14:10.
Then Paul says, “I will pray with the spirit, but I will pray also with the understanding; I will sing with the spirit, but I will sing also with the understanding”, 1 Corinthians 14:15. In that chapter we have the manifestation of God in the assembly, that “God is indeed amongst you”, 1 Corinthians 14:25.
JT So that we say, for instance, “I will sing with the spirit, but I will sing also with the understanding”, 1 Corinthians 14:15. Now if we heard Paul sing we would learn things of the Spirit, because that is what is meant. The Lord means that when He says, “But ye know him, for he abides with you, and shall be in you”. We have all these traits defined and we are to notice them, look around to see if we see any of them among the brethren.
Rem Paul says in 1 Corinthians 2:4, “My word and my preaching, not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power”, 1 Corinthians 2:4.
JT Quite so, demonstration of the Spirit and of power. Therefore we have to look at what we see in the ministers and the ministry, as to whether we can discern the Spirit in the things said and done.
JK Does not the Spirit bring to our remembrance the teaching and then guide us into it?
JT So that there is a great lesson book opened up to us in these chapters, especially in this chapter. We have to look into the lesson book and the lesson book really is the saints, not to make much of them, but the saints really are those in whom God is working and in whom the Spirit is operating. Therefore we have to see what is going on, what we can see in the saints.
SMcC What you have said as to the ministry and the ministers is of great importance, because if I have a warped judgment as to the ministers I may miss the great point as to the Spirit or a divine Person.
[p. 412] JT Quite so. You put a cloud around a man if you do not look at him rightly, because it is a question of light, of ministering by the power of the Spirit; he is luminous and we must not cover him with a cloud. He is luminous.
SMcC So we are challenged in that way as to how we look at the ministers, are we not?
JT Quite so.
JWW “The planter and the waterer are one”, 1 Corinthians 3:8. Would that be in full line with the Spirit’s activities?
JT Just so, “The planter and the waterer are one”; the ministry is all one, all under the Lord. God gives the results.
AR Would the man in Acts 3 be an illustration of what has been said? Peter says to him, “Look on us”, Acts 3:4.
JT Very good. You may say that is looking in the direction of the saints. Well, never mind, “Look on us”, he says, and they did too, on John and Peter.