READING MATTHEW 16
[p. 164] READING MATTHEW 16
RSS Did you say yesterday that in these chapters we have been considering that the greatness of the Person is made prominent first of all, and then in the later chapters, which you mentioned, it was rather what He accomplishes?
JT Yes. His greatness is seen in the things which He accomplishes, and it seems as if too much stress cannot be laid on the importance of the education that is needed on our part, so as to take our place in that which the Lord intended should supersede Israel here on earth, till the introduction of the kingdom in a public way. I think any thoughtful person will recognise that it requires very great divine training to fit us to occupy such a position, for all the power of evil would necessarily be against us, even as it was against Christ. I think chapters 14 and 15 give us the education.
WHC Did you say the first thing was to be with Him?
JT Peter says, “Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water”. Matthew 14:28. This indicates affection. Affection in that way is the moral starting-point. You desire to maintain things for One whom you love. But then He knows what you will have to contend with, and He prepares you for it.
RSS And that is not simply in view of the purpose of God in a coming day, but for the present day.
JT I think Matthew presents it more for the present; that is, to prepare the disciples for the maintenance of the testimony during His absence.
WHC He called them “that they might be with him and that he might send them to preach”. Mark 3:14.
JT That was in Mark, showing that the education in Mark is to make preachers of them, but in Matthew [p. 165] it is to make stones of them, that which is capable of supporting. The allusion to David in chapter 12 is instructive, as showing the place the Lord occupies as rejected by Israel; those that followed David became the mightiest warriors of which any account is given in the annals of war. There is no such account recorded anywhere as that of the mighty men of David.
RSS That is the result of being “with him”.
JT Yes. They were a despicable lot and nothing in themselves, but they came to David in the hold and he became their captain, and the result was that they became the greatest warriors of any in history. Safety lay with David, showing how that henceforth the power of God was with him. There was no protection with Saul. Protection was with the rejected king. See 1 Samuel 22: 23.
PAES Was the education then in view of something being accomplished, but now in view of something already accomplished, but to be sustained? What have you in your mind when you speak of education?
JT See the Lord’s works, and how He performs them as recorded in these chapters. The disciples were to do these things. The Lord knew they could not do them then, but He intimates that they would have to do them subsequently, and He shows them how.
RSS He walks on the water, and we are to do the same.
JT Yes.
WHC I suppose Stephen walked on the water and crossed it; he did not fall as Peter did on looking at the winds and waves.
JT A very good instance, because the power of Satan was there acting in man against a witness for Christ, and he does not flinch for a moment. He is [p. 166] superior to it. I suppose Stephen is the characteristic witness in Christianity.
LDT What does feeding the multitude refer to now?
JT I think the thought is that there should be that in the assembly which would meet the need of man. The Lord says: “Give ye them to eat”. Matthew 14:16. The house of God was to be a place of plenty, which should he administered to others.
LTF Did He multiply the loaves and fishes in their hands?
JT They had that much, and the Lord takes them and increases them. He gave to the disciples, and they to the multitude.
JSG What they gave had passed through His hands.
JT Quite so. He gave the food to the disciples and they to the multitude. What the disciples had could not meet the need of the multitude: they said as to the loaves and fishes, “What are they among so many?” John 6:9. It is only as Christ takes things up that they become enlarged.
JSG All the blessedness that God has brought in reaches man through the saints.
JT That is what comes out in Acts; the administration of the divine bounty is through the saints. That is what Matthew prepares us for. The disciples were to be the administrators of divine bounty here in the absence of Christ. The multiplication of the five loaves and two fishes really points to the coming of the Spirit. His coming in amongst the saints involved an infinite supply. There is no limit to it. Looking at it in that light and comparing our present position with what existed at Pentecost, you can see the poverty of the present moment, so that you are concerned about it and humbled [p. 167] before God.
JSG I suppose the point in Luke in the same connection as we have had is more how they are able to bring it in. In Luke 9 they return and tell the Lord all that they have done, and the Lord at once takes them aside in the wilderness and there is a multitude, and He says: “Give ye them to eat”. Luke 9:13. At once they feel they cannot possibly do it. Is not that an important point? They had done a great deal, but they are not able to do what the Lord wanted them to do, and that is to dispense all the blessedness of God here; the Lord shows how that is brought about. What they have is passed through His hands and there is abundance.
JT And it may be a further help if we look at the way Mark presents it. See Mark 6:30,31. “And the apostles are gathered together to Jesus. And they related to him all things, both what they had done and what they had taught. And he said to them, Come ye yourselves apart into a desert place and rest a little”. It seems to me, that they had been successful in their service, and were engaged with it, and now the Lord puts them to the test as to what they could do for men. He says, “Give ye them to eat. And they say to him, Shall we go and buy two hundred denarii worth of bread and give them to eat?” And then (verse 46) He sends the crowd away: “And, having dismissed them, he departed into the mountain to pray. And when evening was come, the ship was in the midst of the sea, and he alone upon the land”. I think in both of these cases the Lord puts them to the test. Having assumed to be successful ministers, He now tells them to feed the multitude; and then He puts them to the test as to whether they can cross this stormy world in their own strength, and in both cases they discover their utter inability. They find it is through His aid that both things are accomplished. That is an important thing for a minister. It is for the apostles
[p. 168] here, but, in principle, it is also aid for ministers and preachers.
JB Are not these two things the principal things: the opposition of the enemy and the feeding of the multitude?
JT I think there are two main points: that the saints should know how they are to be here on earth in the administration of divine bounty to meet man’s need, and then they are to know how they are to be sustained in the presence of antagonism.
RSS The one is negative and the other positive.
JT And as a matter of fact we can easily recognise that the assembly has failed in both these points.
EHT Would you not say that the most important point at the present time is to get what you have from the Lord?
JT But we should see that while it comes from His hands, yet it was to be administered through men here on earth.
WHC Does the apostle not speak of the two things in Galatians 3:5: “He therefore who ministers to you the Spirit, and works miracles among you, is it on the principle of works of law, or of the report of faith?”
JT There was the ministration of the Spirit in connection with his ministry, and the overthrowing of evil at the same time.
PAES Do we understand that Christ was not only competent to put out evil, but to introduce what was of God by the Spirit?
JT I think it is a very helpful thought that our brother points out. Greater things should be done by the apostles than Christ Himself had done, because of His going to the Father.
JB They were taken up for this great purpose.
JT That covers what has been exercising many of us — what is the divine mode of administering things [p. 169] here? It is through the saints, and to refuse it is only setting aside the truth of the Scriptures.
PAES The fact of administering it through the saints does not minimise the fact that it is divine administration.
JT Everything depends on Christ. Here He takes the loaves and fishes and looks up to heaven and blesses. In His hands it is sufficient to feed the multitude, but the food reaches them actually through the hands of the disciples.
JSG It is impossible for it to come in any other way. Of course every person would regard the Lord as the source, but clearly it comes through the saints. But if you consider what goes out to men now, I think there is nothing more humbling. Nevertheless, the saints are here so that all the blessedness of heaven may be brought before men.
JT And this principle is sedulously adhered to in the course of the testimony in the Acts. When Philip went to Samaria, and preached Christ, many believed, but they did not get the Spirit apart from Peter and John. Then in chapter 9 the Lord appears to Saul of Tarsus in the way of light, but He immediately sends Ananias to Saul, and the same thing takes place. The Holy Spirit is given to Saul in connection with Ananias. Then in chapter 10 although Cornelius was a pious man and had light, yet the angel directs him to send to Joppa to Simon, who, he says, “shall tell thee words whereby thou shalt be saved”. Acts 11:14. And as Peter was preaching the Spirit fell upon them. So that all through, the divine mode is adhered to.
WCR You can see that also in Acts 19, when Paul went to Ephesus.
JT There were twelve men at Ephesus who, although they had not a full gospel, had believed on Christ. After the apostle preached to them they received the Spirit in connection [p. 170] with Paul.
EJW Is there any instance recorded in Scripture of a departure from this; that is, the grace of God being received through the saints?
JSG It appears to me it is important to remember that God gives principles, or rules, which are for us to observe, but you can never in any way bind God. God is sovereign.
JT No, and we are to adhere to the rules, whatever He may do.
JSG I have often referred to the Old Testament times. God took up the people of Israel. They were placed in the most wonderful grace. They were God’s centre here on earth, but you see continually how God stepped outside. God wrought in a sovereign way, but His people must always respect the principles or rules that He has been pleased to establish.
EJW I am not aware of any instance recorded in the Acts or epistles of a person receiving the grace of God apart from human administration.
JT Apart from those who formed the assembly.
WHC When a certain brother was in this country, he was opposed to this thought, and I asked him if he could recall any instance when anyone had received the Spirit apart from coming in contact with Christians where the Spirit dwelt, and he admitted that he did not know of an instance.
PAES Do you not think that the failure on the part of the saints to apprehend God’s method of administration would account, in a large measure, for the disastrous state of things today?
JT It does, so I feel encouraged to turn to Matthew as the ecclesiastical gospel. It shows what the Lord intended to leave here till His return, and He did not intend that this should be departed from. He knew it would be, but the responsibility remains with us of adhering to it.
PAES The passage in Philippians 4:13 is very encouraging, “I have strength for all things in him that gives me power”.
JT No true Christian would care to act independently of Christ even if he could; one who loved Him would not.
EJW Nor in the least to obscure His personal glory.
RSS I think a mistake people have made is that they have assumed that material distance alters things. They would have no difficulty in seeing that the disciples fed the multitude. Everybody accepts that; but now that the Lord is in heaven, not on earth, many think there is a difference in the mode of administration, as though a change has taken place because the Lord is in heaven.
EJW As I understand things, there is, underlying this question the great principle and fact that all that was here in Christ for men when He was on earth is now here in the company that He formed and left. All the great principles of divine grace that came in and were active, and the power, too, in Him then, are here now, though not in exactly the same form. I think we find this principle in 1 John 4: 12 - 14, “No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world”. It has often been pointed out that in John’s epistle there is seen in Christians that which is the answer to what we get in John’s gospel in Christ personally. In John 1:18 it is, “No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him”. The passage I allude to in the epistle opens with the same statement, but what meets it now is His dwelling morally in those who have received “of his Spirit”. The divine idea is that what was here in Christ personally is now to be reproduced and continued here in His own, and then to go out from them in the way of testimony of grace to men, “we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world”. 1 John 4:14. The Lord’s words in John 20: 21 - 23 are, I think, on the same principle.
JT The Lord said, “he that hath seen me hath seen the Father”. John 14:9. What the Father is characteristically shone out in the works and ways of Christ, and so what Christ was here on earth is seen now in a company described in those verses in the epistle of John.
PAES You do not exclude the thought that Christ is here?
JT No. But it is in that way that He is here. Christ is seen here in His characteristic features; that is, in public testimony in the activities of love and grace amongst us.
JSG Thus the assembly is called “the Christ”.
WHF In Colossians 2:3 it speaks of the mystery, “in which are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge”. It is not in whom.
JT That confirms the thought, too, because Christ is the wisdom of God; and when here wisdom was active in Him and the children of wisdom came to light; wisdom was justified of her children but now all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are in the assembly.
DB Although ministry comes through the saints, yet we are not taught in any way to look to them.
JT The gospel announcement would not direct you to the saints, because the gospel is presented to man on the principle of faith. If it directed you to the saints it would be on the principle of sight, because you can see them; but it is presented to man on the principle of faith. But after you believe on Christ risen and glorified, you should be made [p. 173] acquainted with the fact that the saints are here, and all the bounty of God is before us and administered in connection with them.
JSG The humbling thing is that it is so little seen.
JT I suppose that when you announce the gospel now, you not only have to speak of Christ on the principle of faith, but the truth of the assembly has to be presented on the same principle, because there is no visible expression of it; whereas there was such at the outset.
JSG That is where so many people have a difficulty. When the assembly is spoken of, they have so much thought about meetings, and what can be seen, and therefore they get into confusion.
JT If I had lived at Jerusalem in the days of the early chapters of the Acts, I should have had no difficulty in directing souls to that company.
JSG Everything was there livingly.
JT The assembly was there as God had ordained it; but this cannot be said now.
JB Here in Matthew, do we not get God’s thought and purpose in the assembly? You cannot set them aside.
JT Yes. Chapter 16 indicates the power that should be in it; “the gates of hades shall not prevail against it”. Matthew 16:18. And when you come to chapter 18 it is the place of government — Tell it to the church. The Lord does not say, ‘Tell it to me’. This does not in any way detract from the Lord’s glory, because He set the assembly here on earth for that purpose.
JSG Mr. Stoney used to say to a person who wanted to break bread, ‘Have you faith?’ This was because of the state of things. It needs a special faith to go on in the light of the assembly.
JT Whereas at the outset, according to Acts 2: 47, “the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved”; that is, there was the circle [p. 174] there that He could add to, where there should be protection. There is not that now to be pointed to. In principle, however, it may be found among a few who seek to walk in righteousness together.
JSG It exists today, in principle, as much as ever, but it needs that people should look upon it according to God and go on in the light of it.
EJW I suppose the rule that now applies generally to what is connected with the assembly in its responsibility and practical form here would apply to this; that is, that in the state in which the assembly now is you can only take up things in principle, though none the less really.
PAES I heard Mr. Raven once say that there was the assembly of God and that must be taken account of in an abstract way, but the path was distinctly individual.
JT Directly I meet a Christian I can fall back on the light of the assembly. Matthew 18:20 speaks of “two or three”.
RSS And if you meet one, you are two?
GFW When you speak of anything being in the assembly you mean administratively, not vitally.
JT But it is here vitally.
GFW What I mean by “vitally” is inherently. It does not have its origin here.
JT Quite so; but we must remember that the Spirit of God is a divine Person, and acts as a divine Person here on earth.
WCR The Spirit administers the gifts.
JSG All that is in heaven is here in the power of the Spirit.
WHC The gospel is preached with the Holy Spirit sent from heaven.
EJW Yes, through human vessels. But I think we ought to be on our guard against taking up the assembly apart from Christ personally. You cannot do this really; that is to say, according to [p. 175] God; but it can be done in the way in which we do things.
JT It can be done after the manner of Rome, and we are all liable to it. But so long as Christ is kept before souls as the Object of faith, you are perfectly safe in enlarging on the position of the assembly here as placed in administration. I regard the presence of the Holy Spirit here on earth as that which the enemy is endeavouring to obscure and set aside. If His presence cannot be denied, the effort will be to ignore His sovereign activities.
LTF Is the assembly as seen in chapter 16 “the pillar and base of the truth”?
JT It is. But in regard to the Spirit, His dwelling here is marked by such obscure circumstances, so menial, so to speak, that He is exposed to the attack of the enemy. The Lord warned specially regarding sin against Him. Anyone speaking against the Spirit should never be forgiven.
WCR The Spirit will bring all things to the remembrance of the disciples.
JT I think there is further education in chapter 15 and also in the first part of chapter 16 for those whom the Lord intended to occupy a place in the assembly. Chapter 14 is, perhaps, more important, but there is certainly education in chapter 15, that is also important, and further, there is instruction in the early part of chapter 16 which is necessary if we are to be here in the truth of the assembly.
RSS What have you in your mind in chapter 16?
JT Certain things have come out in regard to defilement. It is not from without, but from within. The saints should be sensitive to this, they were to learn to distrust their own hearts. Then the case of the Syrophenician woman shows that the assembly should not be in any restricted way, but [p. 176] the Gentile was to be included. In chapter 16 the question of leaven is important.
JSG Is not the planting of the Father in chapter 15 also important?
JT Yes. “Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up”, Matthew 15:13.
JSG Very necessary for the disciples to see that all this outward thing that men thought so much of was really nothing.
WHC Do you say that in this way the disciples were to be fitted in order to stand?
JT That is what I think. It is so with us. We must go through this class of education, not to fit us for heaven, though divine education is necessary for that, but that we should occupy the most important position in the whole universe of God. The assembly is designed for that. If you are to occupy a place in the cabinet of any country special education is necessary. The saints really were to be the centre of government. The responsibility was to rest on them in the absence of Christ.
JNH To live at the capital.
PAES You mentioned three different stages of education — chapters 14, 15 and 16.
JT In chapter 14 the feeding of the multitude and the walking on the water. In chapter 15 there is the question of defilement, and, as our brother pointed out, every plant not planted by the Father, should be rooted up. You need not fear human activity and pretension. Everything that is not of God shall be rooted up. And then you are to recognise the place of the Gentile. God is sovereign, and will include the Gentile. The Syrophenician woman comes into blessing on the ground of faith. In chapter 16 there is the question of leaven. We are not to be leavened by the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. We are to be frank and open with one another. Evidently [p. 177] the truth of the assembly cannot he developed where there is hypocrisy.
PAES And the Christian has to learn these now.
JT Yes, if he is to be in the assembly according to Christ.
WHC For all that, it is necessary to know the Lord.
JT Therefore you can see how the Spirit presents the Lord in His personal greatness in chapters 11 and 12, and in chapter 14 you get Peter’s affection for Him.
RSS Therefore you get the question raised as to who He is. In chapter 12 “Is not this the Son of David?” Matthew 12:23. In chapter 13 “Is not this the carpenter’s son?” Matthew 13:55. But the Lord Himself raised the question in chapter 16 as to who He was.
JT Yes, it is very striking that the Lord should raise the question. It is not a public question, but for the disciples. “Whom say ye that I am?” Matthew 16:15.
PAES If they were properly educated they would recognise Him as the Son of the living God.
JT I think every person has to come to that point, not because the Scriptures record it, but because they have discovered it.
EJW The way in which the Lord pronounces on certain people is very interesting. For instance, in chapter 11 He pronounced very solemnly on the cities where He had done His mighty works, and in John 6:36, He says, He has had certain things to say as to certain people. Here He pronounces on Peter, and says, “Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona, for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven”. Matthew 16:17. Peter being a representative man, it should come home to us as something exceedingly precious in connection with ourselves.
TA Would you not say that when the Lord says to the disciples, “Give ye them to eat”, that He had [p. 178] in His mind especially all that should be put under the authority of the apostles?
JT In the next chapter, where it is a question of the seven loaves and seven baskets, the feeding of the multitude would cover the present period. It refers to the fulness of the Spirit in the assembly.
The Lord says to Peter, “flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven”. Matthew 16:17. The Son of the living God involves a new system of things which would be characterised by life.
EJW It is a climax of the soul’s spiritual progress to come to know Him as Son of God. In John 9 the blind man was led on step by step until he reached the Son of God, as outside of man’s world, but as the beginning and Head of the new divine system which comes into view in chapter 10.
JT It constitutes you a living stone when you reach that point.
WHC So we understand that Peter would come into the new system?
JT He would be a part of the building. The assembly spoken of here is that which shall appear in the future as the heavenly city. What I would like to get clear is the greatness of the position. Anyone can see that the capital of any country is the prominent feature there, and if one is to shine, and occupy a place there in relation to the kingdom, he must, of necessity, be educated.
EHT You realise the greatness of the person you represent.
JT And the greatness of the responsibility resting upon you, and upon that with which you are connected.
RSS So that in England they always speak of going up to London.
PAES By-and-by it will be “Jerusalem, the joy of the whole earth”. Psalm 48:2.
RSS People in Great Britain are educated for [p. 179] statesmanship, whereas in this country people who develop certain abilities as they advance in life enter politics. There they are educated with the object in view of becoming statesmen. In regard to the assembly now, the Lord would educate us to fill the position we are to occupy.
JT That is, the Lord was the King when here, and He administered things. Now He says virtually to them, I am not going to remain, but the government has to go on. I can understand Peter and the others saying, ‘How can we act for Christ?’ And what that leads to is, “Learn from me”. Matthew 11:29. Whatever it is that you are to do you must learn how to do it from Christ. In Mark it would be to know how to preach, but in Matthew it is to know how to administer. People attempt to administer in connection with discipline and the like, just when they are converted, but they cannot. They must learn from Christ.
RSS And the first thing to learn from Christ is how to be “meek and lowly in heart”. Matthew 11:29.
JT There is nothing that tests us so much as a case of discipline, and no one can deal with a case of that kind except a humble and broken man, that is, one who knows himself. “Lest thou also be tempted”. Galatians 6:1. I think it is in seeing the function the Lord intended the assembly to fulfil during His absence that you can see the force of these chapters.
JB Is not the force of the revelation to us the same as to Peter, as to who Christ is?
JT As someone was saying, it is when you arrive at that point that the Lord pronounces you “blessed”. Have we got there?
EJW In connection with this education I think we might say there is such a thing as a point in the soul’s history when the Lord can say to you, ‘You are a stone’, that is to say, when one receives from Christ the consciousness of being of the same order [p. 180] spiritually as Himself; and, therefore, spiritually suitable to be a part of that building which is formed on Him.
JT It is noticeable that in John’s gospel, where the Lord gives Peter a name, it is simply, “thou shalt be called Cephas”. John 1:42. It was no question of what Peter was intrinsically. It is a question of the Lord as last Adam having title to give names. But here it is, “thou art Peter”. Matthew 16:18. He was that in virtue of his confession.
WHC The revelation constituted him that.
PAES What are we to understand by that?
JT Peter means stone, as you know. The Lord does not say, ‘Thy name shall be called Peter’. That is John’s line. Here it is the Lord recognising what the Father had done. What had taken place in Peter was the Father’s work; “flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven”. Matthew 16:17.
PAES Is that continued? I refer to 1 Peter 2:4, “To whom coming, as unto a living stone”.
JT That is designated of those who grow up to salvation. It is important to see that there is a new starting point in this chapter and this starting point does not originate with Christ, but with the Father. I think the Lord was here in perfect dependence, and now that Peter makes this confession the Lord accepts it as a new point of departure; henceforth they were not to speak to anyone of Him as the Christ. He must die.
EJW The fact of a new beginning and order of things coming in seems to be indicated in the way in which various localities come into view in these chapters. In chapter 15 it is first Jerusalem, then Tyre and Sidon, and lastly Galilee. The thought occurs to me that this indicates the course of God’s public ways in connection with Christ. Then in this chapter the Lord goes to Caesarea Philippi; a place [p. 181] distinct from those in view in chapter 15, and outside the boundaries of Israel proper. It is here that the first full and clear light regarding the assembly is given.
JT And that coincides with the historical development of the assembly. The foundation feature of the truth of the assembly, in its full worldwide character, as including the Jew and the Gentile, is seen in Acts 9. The Lord appeared to Saul outside of Jewish territory; not at Jerusalem, but outside of Damascus, and it resulted in Saul apprehending Him as Son of God. From that point you can date the assembly as presented in Matthew.
EJW Acts 9 is also the commencement, as far as Scripture records, I think, of the preaching of the Son of God.
RSS The question was raised as to whether the way in which Peter was constituted a stone, that is, by the Father’s revelation to him, is continued?
JT Do you mean that the Father makes a revelation to each Christian? I would not be prepared to say that. I think this is the distinctive starting point of the assembly, and the Lord accepts it as such; but there is that which is analogous to it with each of us. Each Christian must come to the point where he recognises Christ as the living Stone, One outside of everything here, and the One on whom all that is for God rests. You are not resting your hopes on anything in this world. There is no moral foundation to anything we see here.
PAES How is he brought to that point?
JT According to 1 Peter 2: 2 - 5, he is exhorted, as a new-born babe, to desire the pure mental milk of the word that he might grow up unto salvation. “If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious. To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men but chosen of God, and precious, ye also, as living stones, are built up a spiritual house,
[p. 182] an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ”. I think that is the order of the development of the truth in the Christian at the present time. It is by the Spirit we apprehend Christ as the Son of God.
WHC Do you think anybody could have any vital connection with the assembly apart from the knowledge of Christ as Son of God by the Spirit?
JT Of course directly a man receives the Spirit he is in the assembly looked at from the divine side, but it is another thing to be in it in his affections.
EJW There is such a thing recognised in Scripture as being in divine things consciously; indeed this is constantly in view in Scripture.
JT And for that you must have grown. A Christian grows up into things.
JSG I think so. Do you not make a difference between the intelligence of the mind and the intelligence of the soul?
JT I think that coming to Christ as the living Stone is the result of affection. You have tasted that He is good, and you are drawn to Him.
JSG That is, many people have divine things in their souls and they could not speak clearly of them, but you could say they are in the enjoyment of them.
JT That is abnormal. That was allowable in the case of Mary of Magdala at the tomb, and in her case even it was scarcely so, for she should have known that the Lord would arise.
JSG I would have quoted Mary of Bethany as an example. She had intelligence in her soul beyond where her mind was at the time.
JT The question is whether her mind was not in it. “Against the day of my burying hath she kept this”, John 12:7. I think in the full development of a Christian that intelligence has its seat in the heart. You would not be an intelligent being [p. 183] without a mind, but, according to Ephesians, Christian intelligence has its seat in the heart. In chapter 1 it is, that “the eyes of your heart” (Ephesians 1:18) may be enlightened; and in chapter 3 it is, that you may be strengthened by the Father’s Spirit in the inner man, “that ye, being rooted and founded in love, may be able to comprehend with all saints”, etc. Ephesians 3:16 - 18. It is all connected with the activity of your affections.
EJW Does not the work of God in us involve our having both a new heart and a new mind, so that we become capable, morally and intelligently and in our affections, for the reception and appreciation, and enjoyment also, of all that lies in the purpose of God regarding us? Both are important as being essential parts of man as God’s creation.
JT Yes. We get the mind of Christ in contrast to the natural mind.
JSG “We have the mind of Christ”, 1 Corinthians 2: 16, means that Christians have the thinking faculty of Christ.
JT But to return to the subject. “On this rock I will build my assembly, and hades’ gates shall not prevail against it”. Matthew 16:18. The Lord is going to establish something impregnable. How can you have the maintenance of divine testimony apart from this? How is it that Satan has not obliterated everything that is of God? This passage explains it.
JB Someone said Peter was a representative stone, so the other stones could be just as blessed of the Father as Peter.
RSS When you think of a stone, it is there for a purpose; that is, to form part of the building; it brings you to the thought of association, and what this is in a practical way.
JT That is where Peter in the chapter we have been alluding to is so in keeping with this passage, because there we are being built up a spiritual house.
EHT The assembly [p. 184] being maintained impregnable explains the fact that the testimony is maintained here.
RSS In connection with what you were saying in regard to 1 Peter 2, there is an objective point to be reached there; that is, you reach Christ as the living Stone, which really brings you into association with Him, and is not that the highest point to reach?
JT I suppose it is. It would be difficult for anyone to make me believe that there is anything higher morally than association with Christ. Of course, being elevated to heaven is another thing, but then association with Christ is the climax morally. I think the recognition of who Christ is evidently explains that.
RSS And it is association with Christ as the Son of the living God. Do you not in that way get a greater thought than even Christ and the assembly as spoken of in Ephesians; that is, in connection with union, because association is greater than union, for in one case it presents the Lord as Christ; in the other as Son of the living God?
JT Yes.
JSG The proof of that is the epistle to the Ephesians. It presents the greatest first, and that is association with the Son of God. You could not conceive of anything greater than that. If you think of the “all things” it is as connected with the Man Christ Jesus.
EHT In what way are we associated with Him at the present time?
RSS I think in the spirit of our minds, if you speak of it subjectively.
EJW And then is it not that we come into association with Him as being of Him? The stone partakes of the nature of the Rock.
JT Just so. Peter puts things in the same order exactly; “yourselves also, as living stones, are being built up”. 1 Peter 2:5. But that is preceded by coming [p. 185] to Him.
JNH Would you say we are in association with Him as Head, not as Son of God?
JT We are sons of God also, and thus great enough to be associated with Him.
JSG That is, association is with the Son of God. That is the greatest thought that God makes known to us. You could not conceive of a greater thing than association with Him. “My Father and your Father” (John 20:17) is the principle, but in Ephesians 1:5 you get “having marked us out beforehand for adoption according to the good pleasure of his will”. He was bound to do it, but it was for the satisfaction of His own heart.
JT “That we should be holy and without blame before him in love”.
JNH I suppose we are not in association with Him as Lord.
JT It is a great thing to have before us God’s design with regard to us; that we are really of Christ, and thus entitled to take account of ourselves as livingly associated with Him even whilst here.
WHF I suppose that sonship is the highest position that the creature could possibly have with God, therefore Christ is the “Firstborn among many brethren” Romans 8:29; but His brethren are sons with Him according to His nature.
JT God is leading many sons to glory.
LDT Ephesians 2:18. “For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father”. Would that be association?
JT That, I think, is simply to show the privilege the Gentiles were brought into, that they were on an equal footing with the Jews. They had perfect title now to enter into the Father’s presence through Christ.
GWH — N. I am not quite clear on the difference between union and association. Do you distinguish between them?
RSS [p. 186] My thought was that in union you are united to Christ; in association you are with the Son of God.
JT I think that is right. Union is really prefigured in Adam and Eve. They present the most perfect figure of union.
JSG Union is with the Man Christ Jesus.
JT It is the Man out of heaven, and His complement.
WHC Is that not future?
JT The public nuptials take place in the future, but at present we are regarded as united to Christ by the Spirit.
WCR It says so in Romans 7.
JT I think it is individual there. We are to be to Him, to bring forth fruit unto God. It is not full assembly truth in Romans.