SONSHIP
SONSHIP
JT I suppose sonship is that state in which man is recovered for God permanently. It is a state in which man is to God’s pleasure, and in which he yields that affection which God appreciates.
WHF Sonship is connected with His counsels.
JT Yes. I was thinking of the liberty of affection which sonship involves on our side, and as sons we are sympathetic with God in all that is before Him and we are admitted into all His counsels; so that man in the state of sonship accords with God’s mind in regard to humanity.
WHF There is the response of affection.
JT Yes. It is the affection of those who are in liberty with God. It was said of the creation, “the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy”. Job 38:7. I think that gives the idea of what sonship is. It indicates that, in that state man is sympathetic with God and rejoices in all the works of His hands; so that evidently if the saints are to be in that state they must be delivered from selfish interests.
AH That will be true in the world to come.
JT That is what will characterise the age to come. Man will be recovered in sonship, so that the spirit of bondage no longer exists. Therefore, the allusion to Hagar and Sarah, and Ishmael and Isaac, in this chapter, helps us considerably in the apprehension of sonship.
FL I think in that line it is helpful to see the way in which sonship is connected with love. Love is first mentioned in Genesis 22:2, “Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac whom thou lovest”. That is one [p. 48] cardinal idea attached to it, and then the next point is in connection with the deliverance of Israel: “Let my son go that he may serve me”. Exodus 4:23. Affection and service. But then it is the service of free men. They must be set free to serve.
RSS What would you say was the original thought of sonship? Where is it first brought in?
JT I suppose the passage I alluded to in the book of Job. The sons of God are mentioned in the Scriptures before, but Job 38 refers to something anterior. Job refers to the foundation of the earth,
RSS Would that passage in Job refer to angelic beings?
JT Doubtless; but it speaks of sons, and I think it suggests the thought of sonship. They were in full sympathy with what God was doing.
WLP You mean that what is said of them shows what sonship is?
JT I think the fact that they shouted for joy when the foundations of the earth were laid, shows that they were in full sympathy with God in what He had before Him; for in laying the foundations of the earth, God had in view the establishment of all that was in His mind. The earth was to be the theatre of His ways, and His sons were in sympathy with Him in what He was doing, so that now, as our brother says, it is as sons we enter into God’s counsels, and they occasion joy to us.
RSS It is remarkable that these angelic beings were in sympathy with God in connection with an order of beings that should take precedence of themselves — mankind.
JT For the earth was not made for angels, but to be inhabited by man.
FL Do you not think the underlying thought of sonship is really the place that Christ was pleased to take up in incarnation? When He comes in incarnation He takes up a certain position towards God,
[p. 49] I and that gives the whole tone and character to sonship.
JT I do not suppose sonship had any real existence in man till Christ became Man.
FL So you can only understand it as you see it in Christ,
JT Therefore the gospel of Matthew is the most helpful of the New Testament Scriptures as to showing historically the development of the truth of sonship. That is, it is seen in Christ, who answers to what Israel ought to have been. As you were saying, in Exodus 4:23 it is, “Let my son go that he may serve me”. Israel never touched that, never could have. Therefore when the Lord appears in manhood He goes down into Egypt so that it could be said, “Out of Egypt have I called my Son”. Matthew 2:15. There it was no mere figure, but the reality of it in Christ; and it is as in the land of Israel, that the heavens are opened and the public declaration is made, “This is my beloved Son”. Matthew 3:17. So that I think in Christ you have the beginning of sonship in man.
RSS According to God.
JT You could not have sonship in man before Christ, save in figure.
FL I suppose it would be in that same line that Matthew 16:16 comes in — the confession of Peter, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God”. And then I was thinking that in chapter 17 we get the freedom of the house for the sons.
JT That is where the Christian is admitted.
FL That is the principle of what we get here in Galatians — the children free.
JT Quite so. The tax, or tribute, had reference to the temple, and the temple belonged to God; that was recognised even by the Jews. And I fancy that is where the application of sonship is little understood now, because we have to do with God’s house. The [p. 50] question is, whether believers are on the footing of strangers, or sons in God’s house.
RSS Will you open up that a little?
JT I think by the behaviour of many of God’s people in the assembly you are forced to the conclusion that they are in the spirit of strangers. They feel strangers there, and if not that, they feel that at any rate there is some tribute laid upon them.
RSS How does that come out?
JT They act as if something were expected of them, which should never mark a Christian, for in the assembly there is nothing to be exacted from you.
FL You are accorded the liberty of the house.
AAT Would you simplify it by explaining what the house is?
JT The house is formed of believers who have the Spirit. “Whose house are we”. Hebrews 3:6. Christians are the house of God now, but you will find in individuals that they act as if they were under tribute. They are not in liberty. A very little thing may show it.
AAT The Lord has pre-eminence: “Son over God’s house”.
JT But I speak of the attitude souls assume there. People may assume humility; it may he honest enough, but it indicates a certain humbleness of mind which is of no value. On the contrary, it is objectionable, for the assembly is God’s house and is the home of the believer. Every believer should feel he is a son, and as such has full title to that place. Of course there is no liberty for the flesh. It is under a tax there.
Rem The believer should not take the place of a servant.
JT Not in the assembly.
GAT If I am in the good of the assembly, am I a [p. 51] son?
JT It is sonship that capacitates you for the assembly. If we are not in the light of sonship we could not act but as strangers.
GAT Where does service come in?
JT That is individual; as a servant you go below the saints to serve them, but as sons we are all on the same platform. As a servant you are on lower ground than the person you serve.
Rem A son continues free.
JT That is important. God has taken up man in sonship, and in permanency. God is never going to lose man again. God had taken up man in sonship and he abides in the house for ever.
Rem That is on the ground of resurrection.
JT On no other ground could it be for us. Christ was in sonship before resurrection; that must be recognised.
FL That is what I meant when I said we must get the underlying thought in Christ, the object being to recover manhood for God; we are brought in on the ground of resurrection.
JT We should seek to get at the moral value of God’s public announcement at the baptism of Christ. “This is my beloved Son”. Matthew 3:17. Every man who has had children knows what it is to have a son, or a child at any rate. God would announce that He has a Son, and as God’s Son He abides in God’s house for ever; so that in sonship God has recovered men in perpetuity.
WHF There cannot be any breakdown in it. God can never lose man again.
Rem Adam was only a figure.
Ques How are we to understand Genesis 6:2?
JT It is an allusion, I think, to angels. Some have thought it alludes to the sons of Seth, and there cannot be too much objection if Seth be taken account of as a figurative person, but I think it alludes [p. 52] to angels.
AAT Do you think that, inasmuch as sonship is God’s thought for us, we should have affections suitable to it?
JT Yes, but the first thing is to get into our souls the light of the believer’s position now before God. That is the point in Galatians.
FL I suppose the one point to get hold of is that it is not a matter of attainment. We are all sons of God.
JT That is a great point. It is not a question of the state in which Christians are.
GAT Is the position from our side or God’s side?
FL It is what is absolutely true. That is, if you have a link with God it is true of you, but this light having entered your soul, there is a great deal built upon it. As to this latter, we are especially defective.
JT The apostle, addressing the saints at Galatia, whose state was a poor one, says: “ye are all God’s sons by faith in Christ Jesus”. Galatians 3:26.
CDeB Is it not put in a collective way generally?
JT Yes, but each one is a son. “Thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir”. Galatians 4:7.
ANW I had thought intelligence was connected with sonship.
JT I think it is. When all the sons of God shouted for joy it indicated great intelligence as to what was being accomplished.
FL You do not mean that intelligence is the ground, but rather a consequence, of relationship.
ANW I was wondering as to what was said, that while the Scripture says that we are all sons of God by faith in Christ Jesus, yet is there not a state called for to enable us to speak of ourselves as being such?
JT You can speak of yourself as being a son apart from a corresponding state, but as was intimated,
[p. 53] intelligence is the result of that. God takes you into His confidence as a son.
EHT Would “by faith” indicate state?
JT Yes, but you might be on the legal line and have faith, as the Galatians. But as sons, God takes us into His confidence. He makes known everything in His heart to His sons. Therefore intelligence in the fullest sense of the word depends on our being in the light of sonship.
WCR While they were only children, they were not in the light of His counsels.
JT Precisely. Whereas when you are in full age you are admitted to the table, and the counsels of the head of the house. They all belong to you. “The period fixed by the father” (Galatians 4:2) has arrived, so that all believers now are sons.
FL The time fixed would be the time when the Spirit was sent forth into our hearts whereby we cry, “Abba, Father”.
JT I think the time fixed involved redemption, and so has reference to the death and resurrection of Christ. “Because ye are sons, God has sent out the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father”. Galatians 4:6.
FL This is the day when that is true. Till the coming of Christ that was not the day.
WHF You get the position first; that is a question of light.
FL I think it is helpful to see that the light of the assembly comes in in Matthew in connection with the Son of God, and the liberty of the house. It helps in connection with what goes before. When Peter came into the house, Matthew 17:25, he was instructed as to sonship.
JT We are not to come in as if we were strangers. But there is no liberty for the flesh in God’s house. The Spirit of God puts a restriction on the flesh.
[p. 54] There is no place in the assembly for it. The tax upon it there is prohibitive.
WCR Isaac had liberty in the house, but Ishmael is put out.
JT Ishmael is the man born after the flesh.
WCR You get in Romans 8:14, “as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God”. How do you fit that in with what we are having here?
JT That is a question of character. They are marked off as God’s sons because they are led by the Spirit. The great point in Romans 8 is the Spirit, and what He is to the believer; whereas that is not the point in Galatians. In Galatians it is a question of faith. “Ye are all God’s sons by faith in Christ Jesus”. Galatians 3:26. Faith in contrast to law. And then: “Because ye are sons, God hath sent out the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba Father”. Galatians 4:6. Whereas in Romans, we are known to be sons because led by the Spirit.
RSS So that during the age of law sonship was not known. Now the age of law is passed, and it has given place to the age of sonship.
JT That is what I understand by the time, or period, fixed by the Father; and it seems to me it is very important while it is very simple. Directly that light enters the soul of the believer, it is a new day for him; but he cannot answer to the truth of sonship without the Spirit.
RSS The way in which it is presented here in Galatians, it is a question of a person being in their minority, or having reached full age.
FL I suppose in the Old Testament the intention of sonship is declared, but the thing itself had not arrived till Christ.
JT You get the thought at the beginning, when the foundations of the earth were laid; and what the son is to God is seen typically in Abraham [p. 55] and Isaac.
FL And you get affection and service in the Old Testament.
JT It is the service of those who are in the intelligence of the mind of the Person whom they are serving.
FL So it is, “Let my son go that he may serve me”. Exodus 4:23. He must be out of the house of bondage so as to serve.
JT I think the apostle is labouring to deliver the Galatians from a false state which they had got into by the legal teaching that had come in.
WCR He says, “Be as I am, for I am as ye are”.
JT Exactly. He was a son and so were they. All believers are on the same footing in that respect.
JNH A believer has some light. Is that a good definition of faith — light?
JT Of course it may be very limited light, simply that Christ has borne his sins away; but even believing that, God takes account of him as a son. But then, entering into sonship is another matter, and that is where the Spirit comes in.
FL I doubt if we can be intelligently here as children unless we are enlightened as to sonship.
JT I think not, because children has reference to us as in a world of adversity as under the Father’s care and affection; so that sons are all children, that is, as viewed in this world.
FL And in that way they are to be representative of their Father; and if they do not know sonship, I doubt if they can set forth the characteristics of God in adversity and opposition.
JT John 15 shows that the disciples were friends and no longer servants “The servant knoweth not what his lord doeth; but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you”. John 15:15. That shows that they were admitted into all the counsels that [p. 56] existed between the Father and the Son. Then He goes on in the chapter and speaks of them as in the presence of man, and that, as the world had hated and persecuted Him, it would hate and persecute them. They would be in His place before men. That indicates the position of the children.
RSS What you are saying now throws a good deal of light on that Scripture which used to be rather difficult to understand. “Because ye are sons, God has sent out the Spirit of his Son into our hearts”. Galatians 4:6. I connected it with what our brother was saying as to Romans 8, in regard to having God’s Spirit — we cry, “Abba, Father”. I used to find it difficult to see how a person could be a son and not have the Spirit.
JT I think it clear enough here. You would not separate sonship from the Spirit, but I think the thought of sonship precedes the reception of the Spirit. It is a son who receives the Spirit.
FL The ultimate end with God is the bringing of many sons to glory, all formed after the image of His Son; so that as soon as the work of God is in evidence, the ground of sonship is taken. In the future, sonship will be manifested.
JT So it is in the sons that God has all His pleasure. Sonship is that state in which humanity is taken up by God and therefore it is that God has man in permanency. There is no end to it. Christians should not be restful short of sonship. It is the happy liberty accorded to us in the assembly. One thought of children is that they are the subjects of parental affection. A child needs care. So that God has taken up the place of a Father, and has given us the place of His children, and the thought in it is that we are under His care; and we are, as our brother was saying, to bear His character in the presence of the world.
FL That comes out in the Lord’s sermon on [p. 57] the mount and in Philippians. Those who are formed under the care of God as children are to show forth the character of God. “In the midst of a crooked and perverse generation among whom ye shine as lights in the world”, Philippians 2:15.
JT So John says, “Behold what manner of love the Father hath bestowed on us that we should be called the children of God”; then he adds, “therefore the world knoweth us not because it knew him not”. 1 John 3:1.
FL And so in the sermon on the mount “that they may see your good works and glorify your Father which is in heaven”. Matthew 5:16.
JT It is the same thought; and I would suggest that the book of Deuteronomy is essential to a proper understanding of the thought of sonship and children. It treats of the relationship in which God stands to His people. So we read, “Ye are the children of the Lord your God ... thou art a holy people unto the Lord thy God, and the Lord hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself” Deuteronomy 14:1 - 2. Later on it says, “Yea, he loved the people”. The relationship in which God stands to us, and we to Him, is a side of truth of the very greatest importance. Deuteronomy enlarges on the land as that sphere which God had destined for them. They were to bear the character of God there.
WCH You touched on verse 6: “because ye are sons, God has sent out the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father”. I think you said that sonship existed before they received the Spirit.
JT I think it does. You must be a believer before you receive the Spirit, and as a believer the truth of sonship applies to you. Every person that believes in Christ is a son in God’s account. There is no lower relationship now for God’s people, because [p. 58] the time of majority has arrived. There is no other relationship now at all, but that of sons. Therefore, the believer in Christ is a son and it is in that connection God gives him the Spirit of His Son. Of course the Spirit may be taken account of in other ways, as the seal.
Rem It is not that there is a protracted period between believing and receiving the Spirit.
JT Not necessarily.
WLP You must be a son before you receive the Spirit.
JT Manifestly so. He gives the Spirit of His Son “because ye are sons”.
Ques What is the outcome of sonship?
JT That is a very good question. God delights in man. He had set His affection on him, but He did not receive any return from man as in Adam; but we are taken up in Christ now as sons. As sons we refer, in our affections, to God. We cry, “Abba, Father”. There is no utterance in a sense that can give God greater pleasure than “Abba, Father”. You do not say that only because you have light, but because you have the Spirit. The cry, “Abba, Father”, goes up from the heart that has the Spirit.
JNH If we have the Spirit, we shall have affection more or less.
JT The Spirit answers to God in the capacity in which He has taken up His place in our hearts. He is the Spirit of God’s Son. In regard to what we are speaking of now He comes into us as the Spirit of God’s Son.
JNH You were speaking of affection: having received the Spirit, would you have affection?
JT We have the same kind of affection that Christ had because we have His Spirit. The affection that God found in Christ is reproduced in believers, because they have received the Spirit of God’s Son.
Rem But then Christ did the will [p. 59] of God.
JT Yes; you, as knowing sonship, begin to think of God, and what He has before Him, and you are sympathetic with Him. Just as I was saying, “the sons of God shouted for joy”. Job 38:7.
WCR Would Luke 15 help us? The father’s delight in the one who desired to do his will, and his disapproval of the other one.
JT The prodigal, as restored, may be taken as a figure of sonship. The father had his son recovered to him in permanency. That son would not wander again.
FL As taken into the house the prodigal comes out again, and he comes out with an affectionate knowledge of God, and so represents God worthily; and as here under the eye of God, and for His pleasure, God is known in those who are in the place of sonship; such are sustained as His children.
JT Whereas the elder brother proved that he never had the spirit of a son, because he had no sympathy with his father at all.
FL It is what we learn inside the house in which we come out characteristically.
RSS The elder son was very distinctly under the age of law. “Neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment”. Luke 15:29.
JT And, moreover, he had no sympathy at all with his father.
RSS I think it is very helpful to notice that what we are speaking of is not exactly an arbitrary thing in the mind of God. God has found such delight in His Son revealed in manhood, that nothing else will suit Him than a generation like that; and so, no matter what will content us, nothing less will content God than sons.
JT Therefore when a brother comes in and sits by the door, what is there in that for God? God loves His people to come up and take their place as in happy relation with Him. For we must bear in [p. 60] mind that no man rules in the assembly; it is God’s house, and as a son I have as much liberty as anybody else. God has no pleasure in mock modesty. It is not sonship.
EHT Would you say that sonship is just one step higher than children?
JT No, there is nothing higher than children as far as the thought goes, but the idea of children is that we are in a world of adversity, where we need care. The thought will be dropped in eternity, because we shall not need parental interest and care there; we do here, and therefore God takes that wonderful attitude towards us: “Behold what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us that we should be called the children of God”. 1 John 3:1. That is what we are as having to do with the world, but in the assembly we are sons.
GAT As children, have we responsibility?
JT I think you have distinct responsibility. You must not discredit your Father.
FL The actual goodness of God is to be read in His children. Matthew 5 brings that out. Children have to learn His character, and so be expressive of the actual goodness of God in this scene towards man. That is showing forth your light in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation.
JT So that God’s children would act now in a magnanimous way towards all men. God is good to man aside from Christianity. He is the Creator of man, and as an illustration of His goodness, we may refer to the fact that He has opened up this great continent of America. It is God’s mercy to man and we are His children and so we should be like Him in it.
FL So the simple facts are brought in by the Lord. Rain and sunshine show the attitude of God, and if you are in the intelligence of what it is to be [p. 61] of His children, you will act towards men in the same way, and God will be praised in you.
JT “Sons (children) of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation among whom ye shine as lights in the world, holding forth the word of life”. Philippians 2:15,16.
Ques You might refer to 1 John 2: in what way does the apostle differentiate the children?
JT Chapter 3 refers to all Christians. All are alike in the presence of the world. They are all children of God. It has reference to the position of believers in the presence of the world that the Father has bestowed such love on them that they are His children. Whereas in chapter 2 you get the relative growth of Christians referred to. It has no reference to what we are in the presence of the world but what we are in God’s family. Just as in any man’s family there are different grades.
FL Our translators, in many instances, give a mistranslation. In Philippians it is sons where it should be children, and in 1 John 3 we have sons instead of children. So that the truth is really obscured by the mistakes in translation.
JNH Do you not think it is strange that they have just inverted the terms?
JT It is strange, because in ordinary conversation a man distinguishes between his son and his children. Strictly speaking,son refers to a person on an equality with his parent as to intelligence.
EHT Would you indicate what would be the characteristic of the sons?
JT I would judge by their behaviour among the saints. That is, as our brother was saying, “As many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God”. Romans 8:14. When we speak of sonship as a matter of light, it is the ground you take before God; but when you begin to move you discover yourself. If your movements are not by the Spirit you are not marked off as God’s sons. God’s sons have a dignified bearing about them. What they do is marked by intelligence and grace.
Ques When you speak of the assembly, do you refer to the morning meeting, or our attitude towards the saints?
JT It would be the general way you act towards God’s people. But when you come into the assembly as convened you feel you are on new ground. I take the assembly as convened to be distinct ground from the wilderness. It is different ground entirely, and I think that sons are the only ones qualified to have a place there.
GAT Is that true of a meeting like this?
JT In principle it is. So that speaking in a general way, intelligence and affection give character to God’s sons.
Rem . There might be some sons more intelligent than others.
JT That might be so, but still if we are subject and simple our part would be always according to our measure, so that it would be always the part of sons.
Ques Would you say intelligence would come through affection?
JT In divine things intelligence and affection are intimately connected, still they have to be taken account of separately.
Ques Would not true intelligence increase your affection?
JT God puts His laws in your heart and writes them in your mind.
FL In Hebrews 8 it is put one way and in chapter 10 in the other.
JT There can be no doubt that the affections and the mind are to be correlative.
GAT Is not the work of the Spirit of God first applied to a man’s affections?
JT It is difficult to say. The Spirit works on [p. 63] the man, and so mind and affections are affected together. When a man is born again he needs light. He believes the gospel before he receives the Spirit, but all affection Godward is by the Spirit in the Christian.
FL We want to see how very closely these things are connected. “God who commanded the light to shine out of darkness hath shined in our hearts”. 2 Corinthians 4:6. The light does come first, but the place where the light is placed is in the heart.
JT Yes. Saul had to be enlightened individually as to his state. Light from the face of Christ shone into his heart.
FL Light always comes first, but it is so closely related to affection that you will always find it alongside.
Rem The light broke in on Peter when he said “Depart from me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord”. Luke 5:8.
Ques Do you make any difference between the house and the assembly?
JT The idea of an assembly is easily taken in. The assembly consists of a company of intelligent persons. They have something before them. The Jews and Greeks were accustomed to it. It was the place where questions were settled. Now the point is, that Christ has an assembly. The point in 1 Corinthians was that God had an assembly, “the assembly of God”. It was not man’s, but God’s. But when you come to a house, I think we can readily distinguish that the thought is not that. The thought in a house is more one of affection.
Rem Christ is Son over God’s house.
JT The assembly is a place where things are decided and where divine intelligence is.
GAT In the assembly He leads: “In the midst of the assembly;” Hebrews 2:12.
JT But the thought of a house is different [p. 64] from that. There are certain things that are to regulate God’s assembly, and there are certain rules to regulate God’s house; but the two things are distinct. You get in 1 Timothy 3:15: “that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the assembly of the living God”.
Rem That is the link.
JT The house is one thought and the assembly is another. Suppose you have children and there is to be a family council, you would call those together who were intelligent. The father would take the place of head in all the deliberations, but if it is a question of the parent he rules all. He does not deal with the grown-up children in that way. He influences them; he is in precedence, but not as a lord.
WCR So judgment begins at the house of God.
JT The Lord is Head to the assembly. In the United States the President is not king. He is there as one of the people. The idea of a king is not that he is one of the people, but above them as of another order, and his will is absolute. Now as head of his house a father is absolute whereas a chairman of a committee, or president of an assembly, is on the same footing as the others, but he is acting in a different capacity from them.
WCR It is a question of wisdom.
JT It is necessary that one should be there to guide, and the Lord takes that place in the assembly.
FL But the idea of precedence is always maintained in connection with Christ and the assembly.
JT And yet He is pleased to call all members of the assembly His brethren.
FL And it is the assembly of the firstborn ones.
JT Yes.
WLP You said that what the Lord’s people need is light to make them free. Light is a large [p. 65] thought and it comes to people by degrees, does it not?
JT It refers to man in every state in which he may be found. If a man requires to know about righteousness, he sees it in the death of Christ. If a man is in bondage he wants to be enlightened in regard to sonship, and I think that is as much needed as anything at the present time.
FL It is really Ephesians that brings out the full light of sonship, and looks forward to the time when we all come into that.
JT Whereas in Galatians we get the elementary principles of sonship, and therefore it presents what is more needful to Christians at the present time.
EHT I am not at all clear as to the thoughts that have been spoken of as to the assembly and the house.
JT I think if you take into account the relative meaning of each word that you cannot fail to distinguish between them, and if you take account of the way in which each word is used in Scripture, you will find that a different set of thoughts is connected with each.
FL I think perhaps it helps to see that as pertaining to the same company of people there are many different thoughts. John brings before us “one flock”; Peter the “living stones”; then you get the body, and the assembly, and the house of God, but in all these things we are considering the same material, but in different aspects.
EHT My thought was to try to distinguish between the assembly and the house.
Ques When you think of the house, do you think of the dwelling place of God?
JT Quite so. And then it is a wonderful thing to be a member of that assembly, presided over by the Son of God.
[p. 66] GAT The simplest believer belongs to that assembly.
JT That is the reason why light is so essential at the present time.
RSS Would you say when we come together in assembly it is a question of hearing what the Lord has to say?
JT It is a question, first of all, of the presidency of Christ.
GAT I thought it was more what we have for Him, as in John 12.
JT I think the assembly is that wherein Christ moves and directs. I do not know much about parliamentary rules, but I think the speaker opens the session and there is an indication of what is to be proceeded with. That shows the importance of giving Christ His place. He is Head.
GH When you speak of the service of the assembly, is it Godward or manward?
JT It all depends on what is going to be proceeded with.
EL Are there not two broad aspects of the assembly; one in connection with the revelation given to Paul, and the other the side of administration as it comes out in Matthew? In Matthew it is a question of the administration of things here on earth; in Paul’s writings it is the mystery more from the aspect of the body of Christ.
JT Undoubtedly, and therefore Paul gives us what it will be in full display.
FL And it brings in in Paul’s writings a character of things we do not find in Matthew at all.
JT It is a wonderful thought that that Man who was here in reproach and despised, should have an assembly of intelligent persons, and that He should take a place of pre-eminence amongst them. Therefore, in the assembly in its proper character it is a question of what He is going to do. If it is a question [p. 67] of the breaking of bread, He does not do that. We do that. But when the Lord has got us on His line, then He moves; and you want to wait for His movement, too.
WHF In the house of God, Christ is pre-eminent as Son, and in the assembly He is the Head, and as such He gives impulse.
JT Yes. Therefore you want to know what He is going to do. No doubt in political circles they arrange it beforehand. The speaker is more or less the appeal; whereas Christ is not that. He has infinite intelligence and therefore things have to proceed from Him.
WHF Therefore He is to be waited on for guidance.
EHT Do I get indication in the assembly as to my behaviour?
JT Yes. We learn from certain Scriptures what part the Lord takes in the assembly. He leads the praises; that is one thing. Then there are decisions to be rendered, and conclusions arrived at, and all these things are to be settled by the assembly.
WCR Do you think we give sufficient deference to the Lord’s presence?
JT I think not. His presence and authority have to be recognised. A primary thought in connection with the assembly was that the Lord’s commandments were to be adhered to. “Tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem until ye be endued with power from on high”. Luke 24:49. He puts on them the test of obedience at the outset. Had they not tarried they would have shown themselves utterly unsuitable to administer in the kingdom. Saul could not tarry more than seven days, and he lost his kingdom. He waited for Samuel, and when Samuel tarried he forced himself and offered a burnt offering. Samuel said, “Thou hast done foolishly”. 1 Samuel 13:13. I take it that the assembly is founded on the principle of obedience.
[p. 68] If we cannot wait for God we are disqualified. Even though He may put us to the test and we may wonder why He tarries, yet faith absolutely declines to do anything without God.
RSS In the breaking of bread are we on any different ground from what we are in that which follows in the meeting?
JT We are on different ground in this respect, that what is done in that part of the meeting, we do, We are enjoined, we may say, to do it. The Lord is known in the breaking of bread, and when He enters we must wait on Him for direction. Then the assembly is, so to speak, in function.
RSS Are we in the wilderness in the breaking of bread?
JT I think so.
RSS In the latter part of the meeting are we in the wilderness?
JT No. I think when Christ comes in, the ground is changed.
RSS When would you say the Lord comes in?
JT I think it is at the breaking of bread. I think there is a movement of the saints. I do not know whether we have observed it. When the Lord comes in there is a stir in the affections of the saints.
WCR Would that be seen in connection with the disciples whom He overtook on the way to Emmaus: He was known to them in the breaking of bread?
JT That simple act in the breaking of bread is the suggestion to our hearts of Christ.
GAT Would you say the Lord takes His place in the meeting before the breaking of bread?
JT Not exactly, although He always helps us.
Ques Is He there in the breaking of bread?
JT He is always with us in a sense, but we should accustom ourselves to the thought of the [p. 69] assembly viewed as risen with Christ, over this Christ presides as Head. His presence hushes every voice, and we wait now on His pleasure.
Rem Christ gave the supper.
JT But He expressed what they were to do while He was away. “This do for a remembrance of me”. Luke 22:19. Therefore, in the Lord being present it is no question of remembrance; this is because He is not present. It is “till he come” 1 Corinthians 11:26.
AH You get an illustration of it in John 20. He was present there.
JT He is present with us individually, and when gathered together, and you would not think of doing anything without His support. But that is another matter. When He takes His place as Head of the assembly we are on other ground, and if you are not on the alert you do not get any guidance. That is where state counts, state formed by the Spirit. When the Lord takes His place as the Head of the assembly, if we are not in trim, we miss the great blessedness of it.
RSS Would not that be brought out in Luke? It was when He broke bread that they recognised Him. It was there a question of simple intelligence. In the last chapter of John, Peter did not recognise Him, but John did. John said, “It is the Lord”, (John 21:7) and then Peter casts himself into the sea.
JT You can understand that Peter was not in accord with the moment. He had said “I go a fishing”. John 21:3. If a man has the interests of this world at heart he is not likely to recognise the Lord in resurrection. State formed by the Spirit is what counts when it becomes a question of Christ’s assembly. We need to become accustomed to His voice.
RSS So that in the breaking of bread the only one who is qualified to break the bread is the one who can suggest Christ to [p. 70] you.
JT That is very important because the breaking of bread should not be dissociated from the Spirit. It is only by the Spirit that you can suggest Christ. One would not draw lines as to those who should break the bread, but the need of some appreciation of Christ and how He did it should be recognised.
GAT Do you attach more value to the actual breaking of the bread than to the giving of thanks?
JT Of course the Lord gave thanks and so do we. He was made known to them in the breaking of bread.
RSS Was it because they had been accustomed to hear Him give thanks and address God that when He blessed and broke the bread on that occasion they recognised Him?
JT Yes. They recognised the way He did it.
FL Their eyes were holden, and then they were opened when those particular acts were performed.
JT And when that took place there was a movement; they went back to Jerusalem. I have no doubt there is often that which is analogous in ourselves. When Christ is seen amongst us there is a stir in the affections of the saints.
GAT I can see now why the last part of the meeting is always spoken of as the best, because then the Lord is made known in the midst.
JT There we prove the reality of being quickened with Christ. Many who partake of the supper enjoy it in measure, and that is the end of it; whereas if you are exercised you wait for the sequel.
AAT Is it there that, as saints, we appreciate the Lord?
JT It is there that saints who are formed by the Spirit come more into prominence. As apprehending Christ in this way, we are pretty certain to get some new thought of Him at that moment. The Lord always suggests something new to you.
JNH Then there is something on our side. It [p. 71] has been said that, rightly carried out, there would be something going up to God; the wealthy man having brought a bullock. Now you are saying that after the breaking of bread we wait for the Lord to indicate His mind.
JT I think that if Christ comes in He is to be pre-eminent, and He gives character to things. It is a question of what He does, not what we do.
Ques Does the Lord get anything in the breaking of bread?
JT He takes account of our affection.
Rem It is a moment that brings the Lord and His people very closely together. There are the outgoings of the affections of His people to Him.
JNH You spoke of the Lord directing. Take the morning meeting after the breaking of bread, He takes His place there, in leading the praise.
JT It is an occasion for each to be on the alert to see what is going to happen; and the Lord would use someone to strike the right note, and you will be waiting for that and not striking a counter note.
RSS And I suppose if one has a large appreciation of Christ and of God, it would be expressed in the one that the Lord thus led to take part, and in that way would answer to what our brother was saying as to the bullock.
JT Therefore what would take place would not be beyond the state of the meeting. The Lord is very gracious; He can get down to our level. What He would do in any given company would be according to the state of that company.
AAT Did I understand you to say that if some brother was in advance of the others, spiritually, it would be wrong for him to go beyond them?
JT No. I think the Lord will always lead according, so to speak, to the greatest state in the meeting. He will always lead upwards. The Lord is considerate, but He would like to lead us [p. 72] on and would take account of the highest state in the meeting.
FL Summing it all up, I suppose after an interesting discussion like this we need to avoid going to the Lord’s supper with any set of rules, making ourselves miserable if our state of order is not observed. We must allow for liberty in that respect, and a certain adaptability in our souls or else we shall bring ourselves into bondage.
JT I think one great object in teaching is that the saints should be brought to apprehend the truth of the assembly. It is a wonderful thing that we are called to it, and we ought to seek to be equal to the light vouchsafed as to it.
WLP What would you say in regard to any address that might be given after the breaking of bread? Should there not be a peculiar character to that?
JT Yes. It is not lecturing exactly. I think we are on different ground. A word of ministry in the assembly ought to be in the grace of the Head. You are not a Levite there; you would act more in the dignity of a priest.
RSS I think I heard Mr. Raven say, on one occasion, in that connection, that he would only be free to take part in the morning meeting, as having the sense that the Lord had a word for His people.
JT And that word is gathered for the moment. You do not come with it. That would be out of keeping in the assembly. Now I would not come to give an address to God’s people without something, but if it is a question of the assembly Christ must give something, and you are acting in concert with Him.
GAT If you knew the condition of the saints would you think it wrong to look at a few Scriptures before you came?
JT The Lord knows the state of the meeting [p. 73] better than anyone, and if we give Him His place we shall get what is needed.
Ques Would that scripture, “he is not ashamed to call us brethren” (Hebrews 2:11) have special reference to us in the assembly?
JT It comes out in the assembly. He is anointed with the oil of gladness above His companions.
RSS I think what you said is very suggestive in regard to each time we come together on the Lord’s day morning that we should be prepared for a fresh impression of Christ. Christ presenting Himself to us in some fresh aspect, what we have not seen before.
JT And then that is the beginning of the week for you. So that all the meetings that follow should take character from the first day. We start out with Christ afresh on every first day of the week. The Spirit is always in the assembly, but there is a distinct thing and that is that the Lord comes into the company personally. It may be trifled with, but it is true. The Lord appears to His own, and that is to give character to us during the week.
WCR You mean the meetings of the week are to take character from that?
JT I think so. The Lord gives an indication that day of what should characterise the week. If you are with the Lord and have caught a fresh thought of Him it is wonderful how that appears in the next meeting. No matter what you are reading what is in your heart comes out. After all, our readings are not exactly to find out what this or that scripture means, but to speak of the things of Christ.
Ques Could you explain any difference between being Christ’s brethren and sons?
JT They are the same people but sons are sons of God. It is our relationship to God. Whereas as [p. 74] His brethren it is a question of our relationship to Him. He is pleased to call us brethren.
FL We get both in Romans 8; the thought of sonship and brethren in connection with divine purpose.
JT Quite so. “That he might be the firstborn among many brethren”. Romans 8:29.
Ques In coming together, do you remember Him in His death or in His life?
JT You remember the Person who is absent, “This do for a remembrance of me”. Luke 22:19. That One is not here, so that you call Him to mind by that act.