READING 2 KINGS FOUR
[p. 342] READING 2 KINGS FOUR
JP There can be no question about the excess of grace in this chapter.
JT You mean in regard to the oil?
JP Yes, and also at the end — the firstfruits the man from Baal-shalisha brought.
JT The first refers to the Spirit, and the second, I think, to that just brought from another scene, from heaven; being firstfruits, they refer to resurrection.
FL I suppose the order we get here is the Spirit, life and resurrection.
JT I think the chapter indicates development in the believer from the moment he receives the Spirit until he arrives at the platform of resurrection, ending with that wonderful scene presented in the end, where the man from Baal-shalisha brings the barley loaves, pointing to that which is brought in from another scene altogether.
FL Then it is very significant that there comes in the exhibition of what pertains to this scene. The wild gourd is brought in and there is death in that, but that is immediately followed by what comes in from another scene. The wild gourd was found in the field, and the field is the world.
JT It is a question of food in the end of the chapter, and so we have the firstfruits. I suppose the instruction in connection with the widow and the great woman has reference to the development of the believer in his experience until he knows Christ in resurrection. The Shunammite is on different ground after she receives her son from the dead.
RSS You say she is on different ground. There is really not much said after she receives her son back.
JT But the Spirit gives us another scene which leads [p. 343] us further.
RSS You look at the whole chapter as though it were connected with one person?
JT I take it, the woman having received her son back from the dead refers to the believer’s apprehension of Christ risen, and then comes in the food that sustains one who has reached that ground; the firstfruits which are brought from another world, Baal-shalisha, doubtless refer to another scene. The food is brought in from another scene.
FL That really makes the significance of the contrast that there is death in this scene. Do you not think these all come in moral order, that it becomes a question of moral perfection?
JT So that we may regard the firstfruits, in a way, as the old corn of the land. The man from Baal-shalisha is a most interesting character.
FL And how beautiful in the way of excess of grace!
JT There was more than was needed. The prophet says, “They shall eat, and shall leave thereof”. 2 Kings 4:43.
Ques What does the widow stand for?
JT The remnant of Israel. She was the wife of one of the sons of the prophets. The prophets have reference to the testimony, and in connection with Elisha’s ministry the sons of the prophets are prominent — those, in a sense, who sprang from the prophets’ testimony. But what you see is, that her husband is dead and she is in debt, so that this chapter presents a phase of the gospel distinct from that in chapter 3. It is not a question with her of deliverance from the enemy, but of means of sustenance, and of meeting the creditor. The gospel comes in in that connection, so that it has application to the remnant of Israel and also to another deliverer. When the light of God reaches any person, these are the conditions in which he finds himself — he is a [p. 344] debtor.
Rem Yet she had oil.
JT But she needed light as to how to use it. The gospel brings in light as to what is here as well as to what is in heaven.
FL So the appointed way of meeting man’s need is strikingly seen.
JT The creditor here is not God, that is, it is not Luke 7, where the creditor is God. “A certain creditor which had two debtors”. Luke 7:41. God was the Creditor there. I think the debt you are conscious of, as viewed here, is that you are unable to meet moral obligations, and the gospel comes in by way of relief. By the Spirit you are able to discharge every moral obligation.
FL So that the gospel brings in the power for righteousness, and the power for righteousness is the same as the power for life.
JP I suppose that is where the excess of grace is seen here — one being in the good of the Spirit.
JT I think it is light thrown on the fact that the Holy Spirit is in the believer. The power of righteousness and life was there.
JP When the prophet challenges her, “What shall I do for thee?” he does not wait for an answer but goes on and asks, “Tell me, what hast thou in the house?” In her answer there was almost a despairing tone: “Thine handmaid hath not anything in the house, save a pot of oil”. 2 Kings 4:2.
JT But really he knew what was in the house; the point was to bring to light that the pot of oil was there. He knew what she had in the house.
JP And he knew the value of it. So that, as one has said, the prophet did not give her anything but light; he instructed her how she could come into the good of the pot of oil in the house.
FL A little in line with what we get in 1 Corinthians 6:19: “What! know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost?” The apostle [p. 345] challenges them because they were living after flesh, not spirit.
JT Romans 8 is more decided, as throwing light on the value of the Spirit to the believer. It is taken up with the great fact of the Spirit, not exactly in God’s house, but in the believer, so that the believer might know how to use Him. It is an immense thing for believers to see that they have the Spirit, The gospel throws light on that. Elisha here stands for the light of God. The gospel enlightens the believer as to what he possesses, so that he does not need to go far for relief.
JP Note two things in the prophet’s instruction — borrowing vessels and shutting the door. The latter is taking up the position in your soul of complete separation from what is outside the door; the pouring out of the oil is a private transaction.
JT The shutting of the door is the shutting out of all that is of the world. It is a question of what goes on in each individual with God. No one can help you as to subjective work.
JP It is not complaining about the low state of the meeting, or the low state around you. People do not get help that way. What do you think the empty vessels signify?
JT In a general way, the needed room in us for the Spirit. You have simply to empty yourself of all else to give room to the Holy Spirit.
WHF Where does this come in? Is it in connection with the Spirit coming into prominence as we get in the springing well?
JT It comes in prominently after the previous chapter, where we get the power of God in the overthrow of the enemy. You have to see that God has intervened in the overthrow of the enemy. Another side is that you are bereft of protection and means of support in that your husband is dead. That makes room for the Holy Spirit, and I think the light here is to show that the believer is to make room for Him;
[p. 346] and as you do He enables you to discharge every moral obligation, and you are enabled to live comfortably as well. It is analogous to the springing well. Chapter 3 is the power of the kingdom. It is not a question of the wilderness but of the believer discovering of what service, the Spirit is to him.
FL I think the name the prophet gets here is not without significance. It indicates the moral character of his work. The man of God; he is called that through the chapter; he brings in the characteristics of God. In the previous chapter, where it was the meeting of the enemy, it was the prophet — here it is the man of God.
JT So that Elisha represents the mind of God brought to you. Many believers are perfectly clear that God has no claim against them, but they feel unable to meet moral obligations, unable to pay off debts that they owe to their fellows; and I believe that when you recognise the Holy Spirit you find that you are able to do things for others.
JP Not many of us can take the same position as the apostle who could say, “I have strength for all things in him that gives me power”. Philippians 4:13.
JT So that the believer who recognises the Spirit is never a pauper. He never feels that he is dependent on others.
Ques You get your thought in Galatians, where it says, “The fruit of the Spirit is love ..”. Galatians 5:22. Is that the meaning of the obligation?
JT Yes, the man who has love is able to help others, and I believe that here the Shunammite comes in. She is the same person, only now changed from a destitute woman to a “great woman”; instead of being dependent on others, she is able to make room for Christ.
JP Things are put together here very much as in Luke 10, that is, the man whom the Samaritan befriended sets forth one side of the believer’s history,
[p. 347] and then Mary in the house sets forth another. You have to drop out of your mind, as it were, the idea of different persons and see that there is a moral continuity in what is presented.
JT I think that, as was remarked, the fruit of the Spirit in man — love, joy, peace, etc. — makes him a great man morally. You can see that that man is a very different person from this widow who was in debt.
Rem You would not go to the world, not even to the king or captain of the host.
JT Not as in the state of the great woman; but if the prophet had come to the widow and said, Shall I go to the king or the captain and speak for you? she would have been glad of the opportunity. Before you understand what the Spirit is to you, you are exposed to the patronage of the world.
JP You would not receive contributions; the great woman would not.
Ques What about her answer, “I dwell among mine own people”? 2 Kings 4:13.
JT That is anticipating a little: it shows where she was. Now she has the Spirit, and hence is superior to the world. The widow represents the state of most believers. It is a certainty that believers fall under the patronage of the world because they do not know the value of the Spirit.
Ques Would you say that the widow answers to what you have in Romans 7?
JT Only that the man in that chapter is not supposed to have the Spirit, whereas she had the pot of oil.
FL I rather suspect that our danger today is very largely the feeling of indebtedness to the world on the side of religious things. That is where the snare of the children of God is. They want to get help or support in religious things — not so much in their temporal [p. 348] circumstances.
JT Do you not think if the truth of the Spirit were better understood deliverance would be effected?
FL Yes, “if we live by the Spirit, let us walk also by the Spirit”. Galatians 5:25.
JT Young believers are always exposed, because they feel their weakness and they grasp at anything that offers support; there is, therefore, the great need of light as to the Spirit. I believe the enemy has great advantage in building up the religious world and capturing God’s people in that way. The religious world around us offers certain help which is attractive to a weak and uninstructed state of soul.
JP The enemy trades very largely on the condition of soul described in the widow. There is the creditor about to take her two sons for bondmen. She is in dire distress, and in that condition appeals to the prophet. And if Christians in that state would only turn to God to get the mind of God they would get divine light. This woman gets light which set her at liberty from the creditor with all his claims, and there was over and above — enough for her and her sons to live upon. She comes out of it not merely with the debts paid, she comes out well off. When persons have enough to live upon they are well off.
Rem She could not get into debt again.
JT If you do not continue to make room for the Spirit you will become stunted. The oil was stayed only as the vessels were filled.
FL In a practical way, you can see the possibility of being in debt in a person who becomes legal.
JT If you were to analyse the literature and hymns of pious people in religious denominations you would be struck with the poverty and limitations that exist. There are some authors in my mind that many of us know, who are apt illustrations of this — pious desires, and yet a want. There is a sense of eternal joys above, and yet the soul is not happily in the enjoyment of them.
[p. 349] Ques Is it not true that pious people even pray for the coming of the Holy Spirit, through a lack of knowledge of the abiding of the Spirit?
JP Do you not think there is a point of danger there; many of us have come out from various systems where, perhaps, even the doctrine and statements of Scripture were not clear; but is there not a danger of our resting in the mere doctrine of the indwelling of the Spirit? The point here most certainly sets forth experience. This woman’s case is not a question of doctrine. It is really a desperate condition she is in. They are just claims the creditor had a certain right to take those two sons as bondmen.
JT Therefore the need of Romans 8, which shows you what to do with the Spirit — “If, by the Spirit, ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live”. Romans 8:13. The Spirit is with you in putting to death the deeds of the body, and then there is room for him that you may live.
Rem Ephesians 5:18 raises the question of being filled with the Spirit.
JT There is great poverty amongst us, not only in the sects, but amongst those who recognise the Spirit. The thing here is to make room — to get the empty vessels. It is a great moment for the believer when he wakes up to the fact that he has God’s Spirit and God’s light as to how to use it. Romans 8 gives you light.
Rem It says in Romans that the Spirit shall quicken. I suppose that is what we all need. I know it is done in the beginning but it should go on.
JT Quickening our mortal bodies refers to resurrection. In Romans 8 the apostle says the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus had set him free from the law of sin and death and, “If Christ be in you, the body is dead on account of sin, but the Spirit life on account of righteousness”. Romans 8:10. It is wholly an [p. 350] inward thing. You have now got the means of sustenance in the Spirit. I think that quickening, as applied to us at present, is properly Colossian truth; there the Spirit has effected something in you. Romans 8 is the bare fact of the presence of the Holy Ghost in you, how His presence renders you wholly independent of the flesh, etc.
JP In Romans the believer is viewed in his responsible life here. The quickening in view there is your mortal body.
JT It is a question of where the law was given — the wilderness.
JP You pay your creditor in verses 3 and 4, and live in the 9th. She did not pay the creditor by any effort of her own.
FL Do you not think the false teaching brought in in Galatians was intended to bring the widow back to the point that she still owed the debt? The teaching of the prophet is that having the oil we should sow to the Spirit and walk in the Spirit.
JT Yes, instead of walking by the law, walk by the Spirit.
FL The law really involves the debt.
WHF The righteous requirement of the law is love.
JT There are obligations that everyone born of God recognises, and the Holy Spirit enables you to discharge them.
WHF It says the whole law is fulfilled in love.
JT The believer is happy in discharging moral obligations.
FL Therefore an unhappy believer is one who is not conscious of debts being discharged.
Ques How can we get the benefits of the Spirit?
JT I was seeking to show that Romans 8 is instruction specially given for us. The believer has the Spirit and the righteous requirements of the law are fulfilled in those who walk after the Spirit; and [p. 351] it goes on to say — having the Spirit, put to death the deeds of the body and live; as many as are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God; and that the Spirit witnesses with our spirit that we are children of God. We do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit makes intercession for us with groanings that cannot be uttered. He makes intercession for the saints according to God. He searches the heart. God is looking into your heart as you are praying. He is looking into what the Spirit is producing in your heart - a perfect intercession going on by the Spirit with groanings. God knows what the groanings mean. The believer is set free from all ceremony. We do not need a form of prayer; God knows what is in our heart.
Rem If someone has been in exercise in regard to asking for things, it is very helpful to know that God interprets the need that the Spirit has created there.
JT Yes. Now the widow really becomes the Shunammite. She has all the debts paid, something to live on, and more besides. She has a status now in the world; in testimony she is a great woman.
Rem Filled with the Spirit.
FL It is very beautiful to see how this touches what we had this morning. There is the spiritual perception to see the man of God and the openness of heart to entertain. It follows what you were giving us this morning. It is the opening out of all the blessing, as it was with Abraham. She perceived that he was a holy man of God. As the holy visitation in Genesis was followed by the promise and coming of Isaac, so she received the man of God, and this was followed by life.
JT I believe that with most of the Lord’s people there is a burden of obligation which we feel unable to discharge; and there is very little readiness to prepare for divine visitations and to discern them.
[p. 352] The Shunammite was a great woman. It is a great thing to see a person free from the sense of undischarged obligations, happy in the sense that his obligations are fully met, and that he has abundance besides.
RSS Thus he becomes morally great.
JP And there is such an appreciation of the One who has enabled us to meet the obligations and who has given enough to live upon besides, that we are desirous of entertaining Him.
JT Scripture furnishes illustrations of those qualified to receive divine visitations. They go through certain experiences which enable them to do this. The acceptance of circumcision ennobled Abraham, hence he had his name changed, Genesis 17. The reception of the Spirit ennobles us. Jacob was rendered a prince. But the experiences they went through involved the setting aside of the flesh. This person was a great woman.
Ques Did that come out in the way she acted?
JT Yes, she was not in poverty; she had means. It was no burden to her to set apart a room in her house.
Rem Yet she was in want — she had no son.
JT But she had a house and means; when you come to the need of a son that is another line.
Rem She did not ask for a son.
JT The need was there and Gehazi interpreted it rightly. God knows what your next need is. It will not do to live on your greatness here. You have to go on to the ground of resurrection.
FL This is a case of the groanings that cannot be uttered; so was the giving back of the son. The need of the woman’s heart was interpreted in both cases.
Rem She must have an object for her affections as well as having the Spirit.
JT Yes; the Spirit would not occupy [p. 353] you with Himself or with the greatness into which He introduces you. He leads you to Christ.
Ques Would you say the question of life is always included with the Spirit?
JT You could not separate life from the Spirit. But life is in known relationship with divine Persons and for us, this can only be on the ground of resurrection.
FL That is a good thought. What she craved was an outlet for affection.
JT Yes, you might have a good deal; but if you are devoid of an object for your heart, where are you? Now she gets the object, and she has to learn that that object has to go into death.
Rem The point is that we might be free so that the Spirit might engage us with that object.
JT God is concerned about His people and would set them up here in dignity and honour morally. He brings in the testimony, and we are rendered morally great. But your moral greatness is not for you, but for God; your life is elsewhere So that you are led on, and in Colossians your life is hid. You disappear in Colossians; it is not a question of your greatness in this world but of seeing that you have an Object in heaven and a place there.
FL This woman discerned that this man was a holy man of God, and when her son died she laid him on the prophet’s bed. Then when Gehazi was sent she said, “As the Lord liveth, ... I will not leave thee”. 2 Kings 4:30. She discerned who had the power of life.
JT Her greatness could do nothing for her now. God had to come in in a new way now; that is, in resurrection.
Rem It is beautiful how she answered the prophet when he asked, “Is it well with thee?” etc. She said — “It is well”. 2 Kings 4:26.
JT Only faith could say that.
Rem You said she needed an [p. 354] object.
JT I was endeavouring to show how it is connected with Colossians. After having every obligation met by the Spirit, you want an object for your heart, and God gives you that; but it is through death and resurrection you have it. You may have it in a transient way, but you want it permanently. Onesimus was given back to Philemon for ever. In resurrection things are established permanently. The Spirit leads her there now. She is on resurrection ground with the object of her affections.
JP It is similar to Abraham with Isaac. There was the object, but Isaac had to be permanently possessed in resurrection.
RSS I suppose a similar experience is what the disciples went through in losing the Lord in death and gaining Him again in resurrection.
JT Yes; and what they had thus in resurrection was not in the view of the world. The Holy Spirit makes you morally great before men, but that is a testimony for God. Where you were a pauper you are made wealthy. In Colossians 3:3 it says, “Your life is hid”, but “with Christ in God”; and that means that if you are to live now you have to disappear here.
Ques How does that apply — that you are great before men in God’s account?
JT That you are able to discharge every moral obligation. Everything is morally right with you both in regard to men and the brethren.
Ques Would Daniel be an illustration of it? They could not bring anything against him in connection with the place he held.
JT A good illustration; but you are not to live in that. There is no object for your affections there. The Object for your affections is dead and risen, passed out of this world altogether. This Shunammite woman went through death in spirit, and so is entirely on new ground as receiving her son back from [p. 355] the dead.
JP The end is, she went out.
Rem Job was perfect and upright.
JT He discharged his obligations; but in Christians you get the heavenly character — they do things in a heavenly manner, not in a legal way.
JP If one could imagine every one in debt and dying and one man able to meet all his obligations and live — that represents the Christian in this world. He is able to meet his obligations and live, where everyone is dead morally. You pay all your debts and you live — that is a testimony for God.
JT It is the Spirit that enables you to fulfil your obligations here in regard to man. It is very important to take into account the breakdown of man in connection with the law in the wilderness. God is vindicated now in that the righteous requirements of the law are all fulfilled in Christians; so that there is a testimony rendered to God in us in regard to the law.
FL While men of the world boast a great deal about fulfilling their obligations you find they will uphold the law if they think the rulers are doing right, and if not they will rebel; if they think a master is not treating them rightly they will strike. The one walking in the Spirit is the only one who gives obedience to the powers over him, whether good or bad; and so with all obligations, he fulfils them from another standpoint, that is, to the Lord.
JT In Romans 12, Romans 13 and Romans 14 you can see how everything morally right shines out in the believer as seen in this world — not in heaven, but in this scene.
FL And really Romans 12, Romans 13 and Romans 14 present the exact reproduction of what came out in the life of Christ as Man.
JT The answer of this woman to the prophet, that she did not wish to be spoken for to the captain of the host, or to the king, that she dwelt among her own people, is beautiful, as showing the position of the [p. 356] believer here, that he has a society of his own, and he does not need the patronage of anybody.
RSS And I think all the societies and clubs which exist are simply to satisfy a need that is in the soul of man. He does not know the right place to find satisfaction. It is in the Christian circle. There is very little affection in connection with the various societies that exist in the world.
Ques . Why did she not pay attention to Gehazi?
JT She recognised, I suppose, that only the man of God could meet the case. Elisha represented the power of God — he was her only resource. Affection was active: “The mother of the child said, As the Lord liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee”. 2 Kings 4:30.
WHF I suppose the recognition of the Spirit on the part of the believer puts him on the Spirit’s line.
JT Yes, and I think that the Spirit’s line is indicated here. He leads you on to Christ in resurrection.
WHF There is no progress in the apprehension of divine things until the believer gets on that line.
JT He leads you to partake of the firstfruits. Christians who have followed this line in their souls are engaged with Christ as the heavenly Man — He who comes from another land.
WHF The same power that brings you over Jordan.
JT The teaching here begins with Jordan. Jordan is in Scripture a figure of the power of the enemy in death, which Christ only could overthrow. In this chapter the believer has an Object, but He is gone in death, and must be known in resurrection. What is intensely important is that the dignity the Spirit puts upon you in this world is not for you, but for God. What is for you is in another scene. Your life is in the risen Man.
Rem That is where the Corinthians got into [p. 357] trouble.
JT They wanted to be great — to have the Spirit and shine in the assembly before others, whereas the scriptural thought is that your life is outside this world; it is hid. The disciples would discern the fact that the spirits were subject to them and they would glory in that; the Lord says, Rejoice because your names are written in heaven, Luke 10:20. The natural man would covet power here; for instance, Simon the sorcerer was willing to pay for it.
RSS But he had neither part nor lot in the matter.
JP That man never does have any part or lot in the matter.
RSS Was it not he who gave out that he was some great one?
JP That was his line.
JT This great woman was great, but she was not giving it out; the Spirit of God tells us she was great. But the believer is not living even in that greatness, but, as Paul says, “That I may gain Christ” Philippians 3:8; that Christ alone might be his life. If a man has a gift that would distinguish him he is very likely to live in it, but God’s thought is that his life is elsewhere. His gift is a testimony for God.
FL What you get here is poison, verses 39, 40.
JT The food you get mixed up in the religious systems around us; there is something good, but there is also poison.
FL What is shredded off the wild gourd?
JT The prophet does not discard it. He puts in something else that alters its character - Christ introduced. But the meal put into the pot (it was thus made available as food) points to death.
Ques Is the meat offering referred to?
JT Yes, in a sense.
FL The meal is really another order of life here.
JT That put in changes the character of what was in the pot, so that it is good food now, but it is [p. 358] not the firstfruits. We get on to another line in the firstfruits — they are not boiled in a pot, but brought from another land.
JP A fine finish in this chapter, a wonderful finish!
JT “There came a man from Baal-shalisha and brought the man of God bread of the firstfruits”. 2 Kings 4:42. He put them into good hands; the hands of the man of God.
WHF That would be the fruit of Canaan.
JT Yes, in principle. Baal-shalisha points to another place. The firstfruits are brought to the place where need was, but the old corn of the land was grown in the land.
WHF The Spirit comes from that land.
JT I am sure it is Christ as of another scene, and there is plenty there. I think one important point about the old corn is that “old” means stored corn; it was so plentiful the year before that it was carried over.
RSS And does the man of God represent those to whom heavenly things are entrusted?
JT The man of God cares for the things of God. What strikes you is that the man who brought the firstfruits put them into right hands, and you can see how they were used. The man of God did not use them for himself, but for the people.
FL That term is very characteristic in the chapter — “the man of God”.
JT He says, “Give the people, that they may eat for thus saith the Lord, They shall eat and shall leave thereof”. 2 Kings 4:43.
Ques . Will you distinguish between the prophet and the man of God?
FL My thought was that it was a case of the condition of the people. Here it is one representative of God taking up this attitude and character with people brought into blessing. In the previous [p. 359] chapter Christianity was made available and here they are brought into the good of it.
RSS In chapter 8 the Shunammite comes in again. The prophet encourages her to go into the land of the Philistines during the seven years of famine. She does so, and returns when they are over, and comes to the king to claim her inheritance, which he gives her and all the fruits yielded while she was away.
JT It is the remnant of Israel going out of Canaan during the famine, and obtaining everything after the famine is over. It points to what will be by and by; it is something like Jacob going down to Joseph. She obtains all her lands; she lost nothing by her absence.
FL A clear indication of what is to come — Israel restored.