WHAT WE HAVE COME TO (2)
[p. 135] WHAT WE HAVE COME TO (2)
Hebrews 12: middle of verse 22, “and to the city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem”; Revelation 21: 1 - 7
JT The suggestion for this time is Hebrews 12, beginning with verse 22. We have had mount Zion already. Next is the “city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem”, to which is to be added “myriads of angels, the universal gathering”. After that we shall consider the remaining part, that is, verses 23 and 24. These things will be severally before us during these three days. It is thought wise now to add Revelation 21, also, which treats of the heavenly city. We shall later come to “the assembly of the firstborn who are registered in heaven”. But we should be occupied now with the city. The assembly is the assembly of the firstborn; that we shall have to consider by itself and we shall perhaps see how important it is, related to the assembly in a peculiar way; “The assembly of the firstborn”. These references do not include the saints from the beginning, that is to say, the saints from Adam or Enoch, but refer only to the assembly itself; it properly is an idea to be viewed entirely by itself. It is a matter of the firstborn. That is to say, the place that each one has as firstborn, and they are registered in heaven. It is not an earthly position; it is a heavenly position. The earlier reference in the previous verse is to heavenly Jerusalem, to a city. It is a city really, the capital of the coming world, but the assembly of the firstborn is to be viewed by itself. We should see that the assembly itself is in mind and it does not include other things mentioned here, such as angels. And then God Himself, the “judge of all; and to the spirits of just men made perfect; and to Jesus, mediator of a new covenant”, are brought in. All of these are separate thoughts and are not included in the assembly of the firstborn, but what is before us primarily is the heavenly Jerusalem, because [p. 136] that refers to a city, to a capital, which is the very centre of God’s government and ways.
SMcC How do you view the twenty-four elders in Revelation and what they symbolise in relation to this thought of the city of the living God?
JT Well, the first thing that has to be said is they are not mentioned here, but no doubt are included in what is said. They are mentioned throughout the book. The four and twenty elders, that is to say twice twelve, include the whole patriarchal period, whatever that period may be.
SMcC I was interested in what you have already said as to what we could include in this matter that is before us now and what we could not include.
JT These eight items have to be spoken of as they are stated — Paul wrote this probably, and they are to be taken up as presented here. We first begin with mount Sinai, a negative thought, showing what is opposite to what is represented in mount Zion; then we have mount Zion which is in relation to David. David begins his regime there and it gives character to his whole kingdom and ministry.
JWD Would the city that Abraham looked for be included in this city?
JT Well, we are not told what it is. It is a question of spiritual understanding and comparing what Scripture says. It shows what a remarkable man Abraham was; what a place he had in divine ways and counsels. So that he looked for a city which has foundations whose builder and maker is God. It would rightly compare with what we have in the book of Revelation in that respect, because it says much about foundations, but the city in verse 22 is set by itself. It is the city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem. We have to see what that means, whether what is said about the church of the firstborn is included, for the city, the heavenly Jerusalem, is mentioned by itself, then the myriads of [p. 137] angels are mentioned, and, after that, the assembly of the firstborn.
ASC Is it right to link what you are saying with what we have in chapter 11 in relation to the patriarchs, “God is not ashamed of them, to be called their God; for he has prepared for them a city”? Do we now arrive at the city in chapter 12?
JT Well, we have to be sure what is alluded to, because we cannot say that the assembly of the firstborn is alluded to in that city. First we have mentioned here the heavenly Jerusalem which may also allude to the assembly of the firstborn, but we have to treat it by itself. The city is one thing and the assembly of the firstborn another.
JMcK Is it over against the earthly Jerusalem, indicating that God is now operating from heaven instead of from earth?
JT Quite so.
ANW In the details of the city in chapter 21 there are two twelves, one in relation to the tribes and the gates, and the other in relation to the apostles of the Lamb and the wall. The names of the twelve tribes inscribed on the gates would perhaps have an earthly bearing, for it says the names inscribed were those of the twelve tribes for the sons of Israel.
JT It has to be treated as a city anyway. To be clear about it in our minds, the first reference in verse 22 here is the city, the heavenly Jerusalem. Verse 10 of Revelation 21 is also the city. In verse 8 it says, “to the fearful and unbelieving”, and so on; then verse 9 says, “And there came one of the seven angels which had had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues, and spoke with me, saying, Come here, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife”. In the earlier part of the chapter it is as a bride, but here she is formally called the bride and undoubtedly is the assembly, the Lamb’s wife.
EGMcA [p. 138] You spoke of this heavenly city being the capital, the centre of God’s government and ways. Is that thought in advance of Zion and the liberating thought in connection with christianity in contrast to the old regime?
JT Well, of course, we have to keep to the facts, and the facts are that Zion is not properly called a city. It was part of Jerusalem really, not a total thought, but part of Jerusalem. It is called the city of David and we, of course, would therefore think of it as the capital, the place of rule, whereas the assembly of the firstborn and all that has been said about it is to be regarded as heavenly, wholly heavenly, having no earthly connection at all. It is indigenous to heaven really.
CCT Is not that the reason it is mentioned here in Hebrews as the heavenly Jerusalem and in Revelation as the holy Jerusalem? It removes any earthly thought whatsoever, does it not?
JT Very good. Only the question is what it includes, whether we may not be at times making too much of it, I mean going beyond what it includes. Here we have what is said of the heavenly Jerusalem. To be accurate we must think of things just as they are before us in Scripture.
ABM'N It is called the city of the living God, but would the addition of heavenly Jerusalem give it its character?
JT You see these items referred to in verses 22 and 23 are separated by semicolons, an accurate separation for each one. The next thing spoken of after mount Zion is the city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem. The item after that is the angels, which is another thing. What we are especially touching on is heavenly Jerusalem; what it is not, what it is, and what it may be. It is a time of accuracy from the divine side, I [p. 139] mean.
JMcK Does Galatians 4 help as to what you may have in mind? Over against Hagar corresponding to Sinai in Arabia is Jerusalem above which is free, which is our mother, as if to indicate the way in which we begin in relation to these things.
JT That is in Galatians, of course, and intended to help Galatian believers really, but it is alluded to in this book. The writer of Hebrews is the writer of Galatians and, no doubt, they would allude to the same thing in a sense; but it is a question of whether they do, you see, and whether we may be inaccurate in stressing a thing like that unless we are sure, and so here the word is heavenly Jerusalem. That is by itself, and then we have taken the liberty of reading in the book of the Revelation to show what this heavenly Jerusalem may be as treated by John. John wrote the book of Revelation, not Paul, and John has a different point of view. I do not say that there is any contradiction, far be the thought, but, at the same time, we have to be careful in alluding to things, to look into things, and to see what is said.
ANW While it is said to be holy in both cases in Revelation 21, the point here is to emphasise that it is heavenly.
JT Just so.
SMcC In the letter to Philadelphia, the Lord brings into the minds of the saints this thought of Jerusalem. Would that be what the Lord has particularly in mind in our day, to give us a distinct impression of the assembly in this way?
JT Would you be kind enough to read the passage in Revelation 3 as there are several things mentioned.
SMcC “He that overcomes, him will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more at all out; and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the [p. 140] new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven, from my God, and my new name”.
JT That is clear enough. It probably means the same thing as Paul does. So it is now a question of considering further. We have the city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and then we have other things that we have to provide for. Where are they and where do they come in? Verse 22 says, “myriads of angels, the universal gathering”. That is angels, of course, a large number of them, myriads, and then the assembly of the firstborn who are registered in heaven. They are to be by themselves; they are registered in heaven. And then God Himself, the Judge of all, and He, of course, would cover all those involved to whom judgment applies, even those that are not the Lord’s. Then “to the spirits of just men made perfect”. Who are they? We cannot say they belong to the assembly. They are the spirits of just men made perfect. That is one setting by itself. Well, we have to look back in the history of humanity and see where there are just men who are not included in the assembly, who are classified by themselves, the spirits of just men made perfect. God would take account of all that came in after Abel, showing us and all those to whom the apostle wrote that God is taking account of men as such and their spirits are taken account of. They are in their graves, but their spirits are taken account of. But they are viewed as perfect in some sense. We have come to them. Of course, we are not told where they are, but they are taken account of here. These matters we should look into, dealing accurately with Scripture to get all the good we can out of it. If God is calling attention by His servant to the spirits of just men, well, who are they? We say it includes Abel. We are entitled to include him because he was a just man and now we come to him as being perfect in some sense in the divine mind. That is to say, it must include the [p. 141] redemptive work of Christ. There would be no perfection without that.
JMcK Does this suggest to our minds that heavenly Jerusalem is connected with the operations of God from heaven so that the saints are to become more spiritual in sensing those operations?
JT There is that which God has in His hand, which He is operating.
JMcK The idea of administration, which should cause us to be exercised to become spiritual, to be in concern with God’s operations.
JT Just so. Think of the value of being in it. The first day of the week is the day when all these things come into mind.
EGMcA What is the import of the living God in connection with heavenly Jerusalem?
JT The idea of living is over against judaism or anything else morally dead. God is over against that, the living God.
EGMcA It is in contrast to all that is morally dead, formality, rationalism, and so on.
JT Just so. It is now all around us in christendom. Judaism has passed away, but it is making an attempt to re-establish itself now in what is called Israel, but it is a poor, miserable thing. There is nothing of God in it, nothing living about it, and we do not need to pay any attention to it; only, of course, you wonder at the way it is spoken of and treated by so-called Christians around us. But the living God is the living God and is over against what is dead morally.
JMcK We have been speaking of the first day of the week and all that is available to us in the service of God. Do you have in mind the distinct place the Spirit has in this service, as well as Christ, so that we come to the living God and heavenly Jerusalem?
JT It is the living God who is served. But we have the Church of England and others with all [p. 142] kinds of forms; dead forms. The living God, and the Spirit, and the saints, too, are living.
JWD It says that the God of glory appeared to our father Abraham. Did God anticipate these spiritual operations?
JT Very good, meaning it is glory to belong to these things. All emanates from God; even the creation itself, what there is in it of glory is from God.
AGL In chapter 9 the apostle speaks of “Christ, who by the eternal Spirit offered himself spotless to God, purify your conscience from dead works to worship the living God”. Is that connected?
JT Just so. The worship of God requires a living state of things. We have it in John 4. It is the worship of God. The Father seeketh such as His worshippers, and the Lord speaks of Him, too, as the living Father.
VWH In Matthew 16 Peter confesses, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God”. That was really where Christ first saw the assembly, was it not?
JT Very good. It shows that Matthew deals with things that we have just been speaking of. What Peter confessed alludes to christianity, where things should be living.
ANW Does the omission of the article in verse 22 throw emphasis on the character of God? It is literally ‘living God’, not the living God, each time.
JT Quite so, or you might say “To city of living God”. You might read it that way.
SMcC In the opening chapter of Genesis much is made of the female side and the woman is bound up with the matter of government. Would this verse help us to see how the assembly is bound up with this matter of government?
JT That is very good. I might add that the word ‘man’ in Genesis 1: 26 includes woman, but the woman is not there. If you follow it strictly, the [p. 143] rendering in the first part of chapter 2 does not give the woman, but chapter 1 includes her. She is not seen until the end of chapter 2. God said of Adam, I will make a helpmate for him. There was no one suitable. It is as if he was looking for a woman and he found none suitable to himself, but God says, I will make him a helpmate, one suitable to him, and He does. He builds a woman and then He brings her to the man and does not say anything. But Adam says something, he says to Jehovah, “This time it is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh: this shall be called woman”. So she does not appear literally in the first chapter; yet the word is, We will make man in Our image and We will make male and female; it is the plural. In chapter 2 we have the woman in actuality.
SMcC That helps us as to the greatness of the place the assembly has in this matter of government.
JT We can read now from the 9th verse of chapter 21 of Revelation, I think it is well worth reading because we have come to such an important subject.
SMcC “And there came one of the seven angels which had had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues, and spoke with me, saying, Come here, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife”.
JT The word is not the same as verse 2 of chapter 21, “Prepared as a bride”. That is a figure, but here, I will show you the bride. It is just what she is that is shown.
SMcC “And he carried me away in the Spirit, and set me on a great and high mountain, and shewed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, having the glory of God. Her shining was like a most precious stone, as a crystal-like jasper stone; having a great and high wall; having twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names inscribed, which are those [p. 144] of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel. On the east three gates; and on the north three gates; and on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. And he that spoke with me had a golden reed as a measure, that he might measure the city, and its gates, and its wall”.
JT The brethren have just to consider what is really meant, whether this includes all men from the beginning, and so forth. It clearly alludes to the assembly, for the foundations have the names of the apostles of the Lamb.
SMcC “And the city lies four-square, and its length is as much as the breadth. And he measured the city with the reed — twelve thousand stadia: the length and the breadth and height of it are equal. And he measured its wall, a hundred and forty-four cubits, a man’s measure, that is, the angel’s. And the building of its wall was jasper; and the city pure gold, like pure glass: the foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with every precious stone, the first foundation, jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, chalcedony; the fourth, emerald; the fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, topaz; the tenth, chrysoprasus; the eleventh, jacinth; the twelfth, amethyst. And the twelve gates, twelve pearls; each one of the gates, respectively, was of one pearl; and the street of the city pure gold, as transparent glass. And I saw no temple in it; for the Lord God Almighty is its temple, and the Lamb. And the city has no need of the sun nor of the moon, that they should shine for it; for the glory of God has enlightened it, and the lamp thereof is the Lamb. And the nations shall walk by its light; and the kings of the earth bring their glory to it. And its gates shall not be shut at all by day, for night shall not be there.
[p. 145] And they shall bring the glory and the honour of the nations to it. And nothing common, nor that maketh an abomination and a lie, shall at all enter into it; but those only who are written in the book of life of the Lamb”.
WMcK Would the fact that the assembly, viewed in her eternal relations in verse 2, is called the holy city indicate that government in some sense enters into the eternal state? We have been speaking about the assembly as the seat of God’s government.
JT I think it should be limited to the thought here. I do not think our minds are entitled to bring to the eternal state the matter of government. The allusion I think is to the heavenly capital of the millennial day.
ANW Would it be correct to say that all the verses we read have a distinct earthly bearing, which could not quite be said of verse 2, “I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband”? Would that be distinctly the heavenly side?
JT It would.
ANW In other words not exactly for show, but seen.
JT Then you have the view of it in Hebrews 12, verse 23. We have to consider what that would mean. The firstborn have the first place with God. They are not earthly, but what belong to heaven, are indigenous to heaven.
JWD It includes only the assembly, I gather. Is that right?
JT It is the assembly of the firstborn and includes only the assembly. The same would be true of the first reference, that is, heavenly Jerusalem. But then we have to make allowance for the other items which we should come to later, such as the spirits of just men made perfect. We cannot be sure they are included in the heavenly city. How are [p. 146] they to be spoken of accurately? Then the idea of the covenant. The covenant does not belong properly to the assembly, but there is a new covenant, as it says, Jesus the Mediator of a new covenant, and the blood of sprinkling. Why should all these things be mentioned unless there is something vital meant? And I think we have to go back to the beginning of humanity before Israel and the assembly were formed.
VCL What is the link between Paul’s word, “Ye have come”, and the millennial setting in Revelation 21? Hebrews 12: 22 says, “Ye have come” as though it is a present matter, but is not Revelation 21, which you have just had read for us, largely millennial from start to finish?
JT We have to be careful because the millennial conditions include the present conditions in some sense, whereas this 21st chapter refers to the new heavens and new earth, not the present. So we have to make allowance for that. It is new, I do not think the millennial earth will be altogether new in that sense.
CCT Is that why it says, “new Jerusalem”, also, in chapter 21?
JT Quite so. In verse 9 it says, “There came one of the seven angels which had had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues, and spoke with me, saying, Come here, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife”. It is a great and high mountain, and he “shewed me the holy city, Jerusalem”.
ANW It is called the new Jerusalem in verse 2.
JT The holy city is undoubtedly in mind here. She is shown as the bride, the Lamb’s wife. So that I am only trying to maintain accuracy in dealing with Scripture that we may get all the good God intends us to get out of it. So these scriptures must be carefully read. Revelation is written by John, clearly, and the Hebrews by Paul. Not that there is [p. 147] any difference spiritually, but at the same time God used John to write about these final conditions to show us that that is what He had in mind, that we might see how different they are from the present time.
VCL The wife is mentioned in Revelation 21: 9, “The Lamb’s wife”. Would that include this present time?
JT Yes, quite.
VCL Would not the bride in verse 2 exclude the present time?
JT The bride adorned, that is a figure. We ought to be free to apply it, but at the same time it is a figure in verse 2.
JMcK Is the purpose of God seen in the assembly of the firstborn registered in heaven apart from the matter of responsible history. God in His grace having registered our names there?
JT Surely, the place of the assembly is there indelibly. It is a peculiar thing, it is a precious thing and is looked at by itself. But then before that we must come to heavenly Jerusalem because it is a question of government, the capital of the universe at some particular time.
WHC We often say the city speaks of administration and speaks only of administrative features.
JT The city has a great place in Revelation 21 and 22, a greater place there even than in Hebrews.
WHC Would you say a little more about other features of the city, such as beauty and power, as well as administration, and, as you said, the place of God’s operations?
JT God has His own primary thoughts in mind in dealing with what is historical in our dispensation. He has His own thoughts in mind always. Here in Chicago, how much is there that is in keeping with what the heavenly city is? There should be improvement as to divine administration in the assembly,
[p. 148] because heavenly Jerusalem is the word, and we are dealing with the greatest things of the assembly. Why have we not more to show for the Lord’s sake? It is well worth thinking of, because we are to rise up to the greatness of God’s thoughts for us.
HPR Verse 9 of Revelation 21 says, “One of the seven angels which had had the seven bowls ...” Is that a millennial scene or connected with the millennium?
JT It refers to the present time. Those seven bowls refer to judgment. The seven last plagues bear on the conditions we are in now. These bowls refer to the power there is with God to execute judgment by them.
SMcC In this book the great cities of the world come up for judgment, but the book finishes with a greater city, the assembly. What is to fill our minds in Detroit, Chicago, and New York is what God has in these cities.
JT What God sees when you come together. There are two meetings in Detroit, something for God to take account of as a witness, to work out things, and that is the idea that is in the divine mind. God is pleased to come down to very small things, but yet there is the reminding of God, to use that word, and God reminds us, too, of what is in the divine mind. Two companies of brethren come together to take account of certain things. That is pleasing to God and it is pleasing to yourselves, of course, and is to us, too, when we hear of it. You had meetings there lately that were pleasing to the brethren. I am referring to practical things that we should carry away with us. We can put them into effect. They refer to something that is in the mind of God.
JWD I think you mentioned in London that this refers to the assembly, the Lord having so much [p. 149] enjoyed His relations with the assembly here that He brings her forward in the millennial setting.
JT Very good. That is what our brother alludes to in these last plagues, implements of judgment. His judgments are here now. That is the idea. God is executing them now.
SMcC Would it be that as we are formed in the features of the assembly we should know how to act in the position in which we are, in matters of government and administration?
JT That is what we should be getting out of these meetings. Are we all correct? Do we know what to do, and do we do it?
CCT It says in Revelation 21 that John was caught away in the Spirit. Would that be for us locally? As we are caught away by the Spirit, we would be able to view these things in the right way.
JT There was reference in prayer to the blessed Spirit having part with us, a most precious thing.
VCL In Ephesians 3 we see these things working out. It says, “in order that now to the principalities and authorities in the heavenlies might be made known through the assembly the all-various wisdom of God”.
JT Very good. An excellent scripture.
VCL I was thinking of the word ‘now‘ in view of your emphasis.
JT Very good. This is the time of testimony and we are in it ourselves. The divine mind was seen at the outset, after the Spirit came down. The twelve apostles began to act before Paul came, but, when he came, he greatly augmented what was there and so you get the full thought of the assembly.
ASB In your reference to the seven last plagues, did I understand you to say that judgment is operating now, and is that with the intent of bringing out the character of the city in its holiness, the city of the living [p. 150] God?
JT That is right. There are things that God will do in the millennium that He would not do now because we are in the dispensation of grace. Here in Chicago or Detroit we would not put anyone in jail. Such things are not being done now. Severe physical things will be done in the millennium that are not being done now. We are dealing with things in a spiritual way and what is dealt out in the way of judgment in the assembly now is not physical but moral.
SMcC In relation to that, would the Lord’s words apply, “Put the sword into the sheath”, but it will come out again, will it not?
JT It will. The Lord will deal with things on that principle presently.
AGL You spoke of the seven bowls as being here now. Are they here in the minds of the saints as having a divine judgment of evil?
JT Just so. We are to judge evil on the same principle, but not on the same pattern, but the thing is there nevertheless. A brother is to be put away; we withdraw from him if he is not fit to be in fellowship. The Lord helped us to change the word ‘putting away’ to ‘withdraw’. In the meantime, we go on the ground that the Lord Himself laid down for us. We are not using physical means now; we leave it with God. ‘Putting away’ is in accord with the original word in 1 Corinthians 5. The apostle says, “deliver him ... to Satan for destruction of the flesh”. Satan will do that, not the brethren, but it is clear the man was restored. It is not physical, although there is a certain physical thing done in withdrawing from a person, but not in the sense of putting in jail or the like. We do not do that. It is God’s judgment.
JMcK So that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
ETP Peter says, “The time of having the judgment begin from the house of God is come”. Has [p. 151] that a present bearing for us, alluding to the present bearing of judgment among us?
JT It has not actually come, that is, physical judgment. Read that passage again.
ETP 1 Peter 4: 17, “The time of having the judgment begin from the house of God is come; but if first from us, what shall be the end of those who obey not the glad tidings of God?”.
JT That is a serious way to put it. Peter is not dealing with the physical side, with actual punishment, but it is put in such a way as to be before us in dealing with evil.
ANW Our position in the matter of judgment is set out in chapters 2 and 3 of this book, whereas, from chapter 4 onward, it is more the things that are hereafter. Revelation 2 and 3 are assembly matters, the Lord’s judicial moves in relation to the churches, knowing their works, and finally standing outside Laodicea knocking at the door. “I rebuke and discipline as many as I love; be zealous therefore and repent”. I thought that referred to the assembly time.
JT No physical dealing there yet.
ANW It is to come.
JT What is physical in cases of discipline is not what is in mind. It is a question of what kind of judgment begins. It should be in our minds that material things will happen presently. The Revelation is full of it, both in the beginning and the end, and in the middle, too. Up to chapter 19, all is judgment, you might say.
AGL God executes the judgment that we have already arrived at in the assembly.
JT Exactly. We have it in our minds; we do not put a man in jail. That will happen presently. In the meantime, we are working according to what they did at the beginning; that is what we go by as to discipline.
CCT [p. 152] Would a judgment about unionism be one of the judgments of the assembly?
JT We cannot have fellowship with that kind of thing. God will deal with that.
JWD “And the sinner being a hundred years old shall be accursed”. That is an entirely different principle from what operates today.
JT Very different. We are dealing with things in the assembly now. What they did at the beginning is the pattern for us.
WMcK Why would you not use the expression ‘putting away’?
JT It is assuming to have the same assembly power and authority as they had in the beginning. Twenty-five years ago we thought it right, but we have been helped to see that we could not assume to have such authority as they had at the beginning when the apostles were there.
ANW At the beginning there was the word of the apostles as to how things were to be done. What you say is a balance, for you could not abrogate 1 Corinthians 5, but 2 Timothy 2 is to be taken account of.
WHC In relation to Babylon it says, “Rejoice over her, heaven, and ye saints and apostles and prophets; for God has judged your judgment upon her”.