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READINGS ON DANIEL (4)

^[p. 269] READINGS ON DANIEL (4)

JT It is thought well to add the passage from Isaiah so as to bring out the recovery and glory of the millennial day, to show how Daniel links up with Isaiah, and how the prophets can be used at the present time. The book of Daniel furnishes the truth, and the setting out of the truth on the moral line, Daniel being marked by godliness throughout. Then Isaiah in his inimitable language sets out the glory of the coming day, the millennium. It is hoped that we shall all be able to follow. The Spirit of God which indwells us has more ability than Isaiah or Daniel, therefore, we have more intelligence and ability to enjoy these things.

LES Would it culminate in the last verse of chapter 12? “Cry out and shout, thou inhabitress of Zion; for great is the Holy One of Israel in the midst of thee”.

JT In fact, I had thought of proposing the whole of chapter 12, but I thought it well to confine ourselves to what we have, but it certainly fits in beautifully and you cannot but feel the peculiar stimulation that marks Isaiah in all these tributes. And I thought it well, therefore, to link on what we have from the book of Isaiah so as to show that what Daniel asks for is fully set out in Isaiah.

SMcC Do you mean that what we have in verse 19 of our chapter in Daniel, “Lord, hear! Lord, forgive! Lord, hearken and do! defer not, for thine own sake, O my God! for thy city and thy people are called by thy name”, has an answer in the glory recorded in Isaiah?

JT I thought so. Daniel did not go the full length. Isaiah seems to have the full divine thought more than any of the prophets; in fact, more than all of them ^[p. 270] together.

SMcC So that Isaiah includes the new heavens and the new earth, which in his view would link with the millennium, not quite as far as Peter’s view.

JT Well, just so. Peter says,”According to his promise, we wait for new heavens and a new earth”. It is really what is our portion.

SMcC I was thinking of what Isaiah says as to the new heaven and the new earth in the end of his book, as to whether it goes as far as what we have in Revelation 21 as to the eternal state, or whether it links more with the millennial day and its glory?

JT I think Isaiah would link with the latter. I think the Spirit of God would bring out exactly what exists at the present time. We get wonderful statements in the passage we read, that refer to the millennial day, whereas, in the New Testament, in Peter, it is linked up with what we call the new heavens and new earth. I mean to say the Spirit of God is entitled to use these terms, and we ought to be able to follow them according to the way He uses them, whether in Isaiah or in the New Testament.

SMcC I think that helps in relation to Isaiah’s ministry.

RWS Isaiah is not at all downcast because only a remnant return. He is more buoyant than all the other prophets.

JT He makes more reference than all of them to the word as applied to Israel, not the assembly. We do not exactly form a remnant, we represent the whole idea or nothing. Here this afternoon we represent the whole idea of the assembly; we are a part of it.

SMcC That is what Philadelphia sets out; it is not a remnant; the whole idea in the Lord’s mind ^[p. 271] is the assembly.

AB Is there something in the prophet’s reference to things as Isaiah refers to them? “The Spirit of Jehovah shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Jehovah”. Would that not enter into our day?

JT Good. So that when we come to Isaiah 11, the present characteristics of Christ appear to us. It is very wonderful that God comes down to us in this sense to bring out to us the present characteristics of Christ, not the assembly glory, but the millennial glory.

VL Is it not wonderful that Daniel refers to terms that bear on the Lord Jesus? It is like the Father opening the heavens and saying, “This is my beloved Son”.

JT Beautiful, I think we should be enamoured with these wonderful scriptures because they are so marvellous; so much is said in Isaiah’s wild measure, compared with John’s simple page; it is not wild, but perfectly set out.

LES Very good. I was thinking too of Isaiah 11, the root of Jesse, and then the breaking through of the blessed Spirit of God in relation to the consummation of His own work.

JT We thank God for the idea of the remnant of Israel coming into the assembly with us; we have one or two Jewish brothers and sisters known to us. I love to think the Lord has something of Israel in the assembly even now here in America.

SMcC Is the thought of Daniel 9, in the part we read, that we are to be affected by the moral side if we are to understand and appreciate rightly the glory connected with the millennial side?

JT I thought so.

CHH Do you get the moral side, too, in Isaiah 6; the moral process that Isaiah goes through, the acknowledgement that he is a man of unclean lips,

^[p. 272] and his lips are touched with the live coal preparing him for his ministry?

JT That is preparatory for the language he uses. I suppose there is no prophet read more than Isaiah.

JGH Is it not important too, in view of the fact that Isaiah develops the glory side that he above any of the other prophets develops also the sufferings of Christ?

JT Just so. He is quoted in the New Testament for that purpose.

JB Would this part of this chapter show to us how Daniel can speak in relation, so to speak, to the assembly as he refers to “thy city”, “thy holy mountain”, and “thy people”?

JT Yes, but you have to regard these statements literally to get the truth. The direct word is not to the assembly, it is to Israel. The recovery of Israel is in mind, all these terms referred to her primarily.

Dr CP The word ‘holy’ is used in relation to the city and the mountain.

JT Quite so. He is really a priest, as we said this morning. Daniel is a priest really, just as Ezekiel was a priest; it is unto God. At the same time we are called priests too, properly speaking, “a kingly priesthood, a holy nation”, so that we might carry on the service of God. We might as well keep to the meaning of the terms whatever passage is read, keep to its meaning, and then, if needed, apply it in a spiritual way because “every scripture is divinely inspired, and profitable for teaching”, and can be used, only we have to use them rightly.

JP Where will the assembly be during the millennium?

JT It will be in heaven. We are made to sit down together ^[p. 273] in the heavenlies.

AB Is there the idea in the millennium of the celestial city and the terrestrial city, that is the city on the earth that is in mind in Isaiah and Daniel, but in Revelation it is the celestial city, the new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, having the glory of God?

JT Just so; and that city is ourselves, we are that city. At least, we are of it and it is a wonderful thing that it is so and we are in the light of that city in every meeting we have, especially on the first day of the week.

EJM Why does Gabriel appear to Daniel about the time of the evening oblation?

JT I was struck with that when it was read, that we have even the time of day, the time of day is mentioned, the evening oblation.

EJM Would you say it is a time favourable in God’s sight?

JT I would say so, it is the time of day, it is the evening. We are to go through the exercise of the night before we are to come to the light of Christ in heaven.

EJM I was going to ask further if the evening oblation would indicate that in Daniel’s mind there is a restful state, so he is able to take in the instructions from the angel.

JT Quite so. The angel could not give him as much instruction as we could, but the angel could give Daniel instruction.

NB Is the speed mentioned here worthy of note? Daniel repeats it. Verse 20, “whilst I was speaking” and in verse 21, “flying swiftly”. I am thinking of Peter in Acts 10. “While Peter was yet speaking these words the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were hearing the word”.

JT Very beautiful. So there is the idea of speed, flying swiftly, indicating something of the actual material conditions of the millennial day.

^[p. 274] What conditions they will be. We talk about the speed of the plane and train, but there is nothing to be compared with the speed of things in Scripture, and it is not out of the way to call attention to that because we are dealing with God’s matters in these scriptures.

NB The living creatures in Ezekiel as a flash of lightning.

JT Yes.

Dr CP The twinkling of an eye.

JT Just so.

CCT Is there something in the thought that Daniel was ready to receive instruction, and Gabriel talked to him? I am thinking of what you said in Rochester, we are to have the knowledge of the voices of divine Persons. All that enters into this case here.

JT I think so. “Is this thy voice, my son David?”. The idea of the impression the voice makes. What a voice David must have had! is this thy voice? So there is the voice of the prophets, the voice of Jesus, the voice of the Lord.

EJM Is there anything in the fact that this angel was Gabriel rather than Michael? I was thinking of Gabriel announcing to Zacharias and Mary, but Michael is brought in in chapter 10. He is on the military side.

JT I think Gabriel is the priestly side. In Luke it is that side.

TU Would there be a suggestion in verse 20 as to the qualifications for the visitation of the angel? He was praying and confessing his sins and the sins of his people, and while he was yet speaking there was the visitation of the angel. I was wondering if that would indicate that he qualified morally and spiritually for the visitation.

JT I think that is quite right. It was as he was speaking. He is in a priestly state, you might say,

^[p. 275] in the way he is doing it, the words he uses and the manner.

CHM Would you say in the desire we have to recognise divine voices that our attitude should be one of going in and speaking to Him? Is it an attitude that would be consistent with our hearing a voice?

JT The voice promotes or induces it.

CHM I was wondering if that well-known verse in Numbers would apply, “And when Moses went into the tent of meeting to speak with Him, then he heard the voice speaking to him from off the mercy-seat which was upon the ark of testimony, from between the two cherubim; and he spoke to Him”.

JT So that you might say, whosoever the voice was it anticipated Moses. Moses intended to speak; but he is anticipated by the voice that came to him.

FW Why is it the man Gabriel that touched him and informed him?

JT I suppose he is, speaking reverently, using a word that is convenient, a question of man; although he is an angel, it is a question of man. I suppose the angels must be formed like men because they often are spoken of as men, as in Abraham’s case.

FW Is it to set Daniel at ease as bringing him into a holy intimacy with so great a person as Gabriel? He touched him and then informed him. Would that not set Daniel very much at ease?

JT Very good. We have often spoken of being on good terms with persons, and there is such a thing as being on good terms with God and instrumentalities like angels. We are set at ease in dealing with God.

FW So that there would be such a thing as true, holy spiritual intimacy.

JT I would think that is perfectly right.

LES Would the thought of Daniel addressing God as “my God” — “the holy mountain of my God” — involve this matter of intimacy?

JT Oh, I think all these terms would. At the same time I think they have to be taken literally to get the right meaning first, and then, if we are free, to use them in the spiritual sense, but I think it is right to begin with the primary meaning of the terms and the circumstances involved — Israelitish terms in themselves.

CHH Referring to the evening oblation, it says in Psalm 141, “Let my prayer be set forth before thee as incense, the lifting up of my hands as the evening oblation”. I was wondering whether the exercise is to notice the pleasure that is given to God.

JT Quite so. Only they were properly Old Testament terms and the circumstances are given in order to get the full meaning of them. We use the word ‘oblation’ now, but we would only use it in a spiritual sense of offering something to God.

JP Will these terms come into use again in the millennium?

JT I think they will. We have the highest form of everything. We are to be caught up to heaven; it says that in 1 Thessalonians 4 about the saints not having any fear as to those who have fallen asleep, and so the word is, “The Lord himself, with an assembling shout, with archangel’s voice and with trump of God, shall descend from heaven”. The trump of God. The Lord Himself has that. He is entitled to have that and to use it if He wants it, the authoritative voice. “And the dead in Christ shall rise first; then we, the living who remain, shall be caught up”. We will hear that voice, too.

RWS According to Ezekiel they will sacrifice.

JT We come down now in these scriptures to Israelitish terms which is quite right. We leave the assembly for a moment, but if we want to minister ^[p. 277] in the assembly and to the assembly we can use them; but what we have here are Old Testament terms, but every scripture is good and profitable. We have that in mind all the time. It is a question of how we use them.

RWS These terms are elevated to fit into assembly service.

JT They are brought up to us, not we down to them. It is a question of divine Persons, doing what They please.

JK This morning we had, “I Daniel understood by the books”, and here the angel speaks and says, “To make thee skilful of understanding”. Is that something further?

JT I think so. The books would refer to what Jeremiah wrote. They are referred to. Now the angel is giving more understanding of these matters. So we get all that in this section we read today.

CCT I was just noticing the reason he is given this understanding is because he is greatly beloved. Is not that worth while noting, in verse 23, “For thou art one greatly beloved”?

JT That was his place with God.

RQ Would it be right to note the service of Gabriel in connection with the service of Daniel? Would it be analogous to the service of the Spirit in our day?

JT It is analogous, I would say that.

SMcC It is important in dealing with the Scriptures as you refer to them to see the proper bearing. Mr. Grant tried to bring the Old Testament saints to the New Testament level. We have to understand the distinctive place the assembly has in the truth.

JT Quite so. I would just add to what you say for the sake of the brethren here, the man you mention, and also Stuart, were heretics. Grant was a man who lived in Plainfield and Stuart a man who ^[p. 278] lived in England; both were heretics. They did not rightly place the truth in the Scriptures.

SMcC Mr. Grant said eternal life went back to the Old Testament saints, which was error.

CAM The use of the word ‘heretic’ is the same word as forming a sect, and that is what came about as a result of that fault. I am saying that because of the remarkable way in which you have stressed that if we stand for anything we stand for the whole assembly.

JT True; therefore the word ‘sect’ is evil. The word refers to evil and we ought to regard ourselves as delivered from all these things. We are not sectarian. The disciples were first called christians in Antioch. We have a spiritual name. It is derived from Christ, not from Grant or anyone like that.

EBM Would you say, therefore, “Consider the word, and have understanding in the vision”, said to Daniel greatly beloved, brings in the responsible side?

JT Just so, “Consider the word, and have understanding in the vision”.

CHH It says in chapter 10: 1, “He understood the thing, and had understanding of the vision”, as though the word was effectual.

JT “And the thing was true”, “Daniel, whose name was called Belteshazzar; and the thing is true, but the appointed time of trial is long; and he understood the thing, and had understanding of the vision”. It is well to take notice of that.

VL In view of what you have been saying as to the moral side, is not that summed up in the fact that it says, “At the beginning of thy supplications the word went forth”? The man was heard because of what he was, not just because of what he said.

JT Very good, “At the beginning of thy supplications the word went forth”; showing it was not his supplication as such, but such a man as ^[p. 279] he.

JW Would it appear that things were measured because of his supplication for “thy city”? Would it encourage us to get on the line of measure?

JT In Ezekiel, there is a great deal about measurement. The idea begins properly with the book of Ezekiel as to the sanctuary and all that relates to it.

JGH Do you think we would be justified in linking Daniel with John in relation to the matter of being beloved? I was thinking of John as the disciple Jesus loved. Would you think the disclosures of truth that are coming to us in our own times would come to us finding us conscious of divine love?

JT Just so.

JMcK How far would vision go in the present economy? I was thinking of Peter going up to the house-top to pray, becoming in an ecstasy, and the vision of the sheet given to him which he failed to understand.

JT But he got to understand it, and explained it fully himself in chapter 11.

JMcK But I was wondering how far your thought of a vision would go today.

JT It would be a spiritual impression. I do not know of anyone in modern times who has had a vision at all, but what we have is spiritual vision, spiritual understanding, “The Lord will give thee understanding”. It is not got in a vision or dream or the like. We do not hear of that any more. Of course, in Peter’s time it was used.

RWS Things proceed in verse 25, “The street and the moat shall be built again, even in troublous times”. Can we bring that up to our day and what is being built in difficult times, I mean in the assembly? What is being built in the assembly, the ministry of the Spirit and all that has happened in the ^[p. 280] last fifty years, wonderful things coming out you might say, in troublous times?

JT You are making good use and proper use of the scripture. It is to be used! it is good and profitable!

FCT Would you say what answers to the vision? Is it the prophetic word? Without a vision we would perish.

JT That is in a figurative way. We do not get visions now.

JMcK It is rather more connected with what you say as to Daniel. I was thinking of Peter’s word in Acts 2 in relation to prophecy, “Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your elders shall dream with dreams”.

JT That came to pass in those days. But was it not a quotation from the Old Testament that Peter was making use of in the then present time, which was quite intelligible? They had the same thing that we have, the Old Testament at the beginning of christianity.

CHH Would the thought of revelation be applicable to the assembly today?

JT “I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord, I know a man in Christ”. Well, Paul had that. They had the same things in the Old Testament.

CHM Would it not be right to say that in the beginning of the church there were certain spectacular occurrences which were in order, but today it is a more inward matter?

JT I think the whole thing comes back to the fact that the assembly will be taken away and the millennial conditions will begin. It is touched on in Revelation, but they are more touched on in Isaiah.

JMcK Perhaps you would help us on the verse in Acts 16, “And when he had seen the vision,

^[p. 281] immediately we sought to go forth to Macedonia, concluding that the Lord had called us to announce to them the glad tidings”.

JT Well, he followed the line of what happened in the Old Testament; that is allowed and it may be allowed continuously in the assembly’s history, but I do not know of it in modern times and I do not think it exists.

FW Would you use the word ‘vision’ in a spiritual sense? Take what there was in Mr. Darby’s day, an apprehension before his soul, an apprehension of the assembly in a certain sense. Would it be right to say he got a vision of the whole thought?

JT I suppose he did, but I do not suppose he got a vision in the sense that Paul got it. I do not think anyone gets visions now, I do not know of anyone. We have the Spirit, which is greater than any vision, and we know what that is, in these meetings. It is greater than any vision.

EJM Did not Mr. Darby condemn the statement that certain of the sisters had seen visions?

JT I would be afraid of it if I heard any had them now, would not you?

EJM Yes, I would.

AB “God having spoken in many parts and in many ways formerly to the fathers in the prophets, at the end of these days has spoken to us in the person of the Son”.

JT That is the way the speaking comes, not that there were not visions too at the beginning of christianity, I believe there were, but at the same time we cannot say there is any such thing now.

CCT It says in John 16, “And he will announce to you what is coming”.

JT That is on the higher level. The Spirit of God is the greatest instrumentality to convey what is of God.

CCT ^[p. 282] Would it be wrong to say if we did have visions it would be setting aside the Spirit?

JT We do better to proceed in the way we know God is working, we should not be looking for visions.

JW Would not the scripture be the final authority?

JT First, we look for impressions. The impressions come from the Spirit of God and that is a greater thing than a vision.

CHH The apostle says, “The spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge of him, being enlightened in the eyes of your heart”.

JT Very good, beautiful!

NB What would you say about the meeting for ministry when there might be a revelation?

JT Of course, that was at the beginning of things, as we say, but I would say it applies now; you have an impression of the Spirit at the meeting, like we will have tonight. We might get impressions to search out some scripture that fits in with what you have in mind.

Rem Paul says, “For ye can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all be encouraged”. I believe that covers it.

JT It does, that covers things.

EJM You made an important remark when you said that we were speaking of Jewish words and settings, bringing in the difference between interpretation and application.

JT I would say that fully.

RWS Paul speaks of the world to come of which we speak. We do not speak much about the world to come; we speak more about what is our proper inheritance than the world to come.

JT In F.E.R.’s time we used that word very much, the world to come of which we speak. All ^[p. 283] that is in the assembly, as is the truth we are speaking of now as to the Old Testament things.

CHH Did you say it covers the assembly?

JT The world to come certainly covers the assembly; it will be over the earth, not on the earth, but over it.

RWS Then you are linking the assembly with the world to come, I was thinking of it down here, the terrestrial side.

JT I think the world to come involves the assembly and all that attaches to it.

SMcC Would it be right to say the service of God will be seen in a dual way in the world to come, on the material side on the earth in connection with the sacrifices and the spiritual side in the heavenly city?

JT Just so. You can hardly visualise in your own mind the idea of the world to come of which we speak without the assembly. It is a christian expression. Paul would use that and in F.E.R.’s time it was greatly used, and in my time, too, when he was here. The world to come of which we speak. It is spoken of in Hebrews.

JW Would the expression ‘Lord Jesus’ indicate the Lord Jesus as in His personal ministry in Luke 4? “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your ears”.

JT That is very simple, it is christianity, the Lord exhibited it. The book was handed to Him and He read from it and closed it and sat down. The Lord’s own actions are mentioned and it is beautiful; it becomes increasingly attractive in the way Luke presents it.

JW “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to preach glad tidings to the poor; he has sent me to preach to captives deliverance, and to the blind sight, to send forth the crushed delivered, to preach the acceptable year of the Lord”. I suppose its actual fulfilment is in the world to come.

JT I think it is alluding to what we have now, to what we are going on with. Read it again, please.

JW “And the book of the prophet Esaias was given to him; and having unrolled the book he found the place where it was written”.

JT Notice that, “He found the place”. Found, literally, by the Lord Himself as He would do in anyone’s house. He would just do what they did. He found the passage. Read on.

JT Then what? What does it say about the people, what they think of it?

JW “And having rolled up the book, when he had delivered it up to the attendant, he sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed upon him”.

JT That is the idea, what you would expect of Luke.

CHH He closes the book in the middle of the verse, discriminating as to what applies.

JT If you are speaking, close your speech; do not say any more when you have finished.

SMcC In regard to the seventy weeks, there remains one week to run its course, but you regard the first half of that week as being fulfilled in the gospels in the ministry of Christ?

JT I would say that fully. Then I think we ought to turn to Isaiah, to see how Christ is seen there in chapter 11. Will you read that again starting at verse 1?

NB “^[p. 285] And there shall come forth a shoot out of the stock of Jesse, and a branch out of his roots shall be fruitful; and the Spirit of Jehovah shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Jehovah. And his delight will be in the fear of Jehovah; and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears; but with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his reins, and faithfulness the girdle of his loins. The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid, and the calf and the young lion and the fatted beast together, and a little child shall lead them”.

JT So the passage takes us to millennial days. It is not exactly indicating christian ministry, the Lord working in this or that one, giving gifts to set out the truth, but the passage we read refers to what will take place in the millennium.

JP Would that refer to what the Lord was as here already?

JT It is the spirit of the passage; it really refers to the millennial day. That is what I have in mind in the chapter.

VL Will there be anything to be understood in the millennium that is not available to us to understand now?

JT I think not. The Spirit of God is here to bring out what is suitable to our times, to bring out the service of God, and to maintain the service of God. If we use any scripture that fits our time, the Spirit of God would help us, but, if we are dealing with what is strictly millennial, then we want to see how the Lord acts in the millennium.

RQ “The Spirit searches all things”.

JT All things.

EBM It speaks of the various animals lying down together and enjoying things on the earth. Would that be the world to come?

JT In “the world to come, whereof we speak”, I think the more spiritual things would be in mind, the things the apostle Paul mentions. He was speaking about the heavenly things. He was a heavenly man, he had the truth of the assembly given to him. He was the minister of the assembly, and would deal with heavenly things.

NB I was wondering if there was not something very beautiful in the end of Ephesians 1, already referred to. We have it here in Isaiah 11, the spirit of wisdom in the apostle’s prayer, “the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge of him”. This would be given to the saints and then following on to the place that has been given to Christ at God’s right hand in the heavenlies “above every principality, and authority, and power, and dominion, and every name named, not only in this age, but also in that to come”. I thought it would fit in with what you are saying.

JT Exactly, that would be what Paul was speaking about; that is the way I would take that passage. We are speaking of other things now; we are speaking of them with a view to help in a general way from the prophet Isaiah. We are to learn from the prophets.

CHH Would we be justified at all in using, in the gospel, the scripture about the wolf? One has heard the idea of the wolf and the lamb applied to the apostle Paul and Ananias. Is that kind of thing justified in the gospel, as though these conditions would be brought about mutually among the saints?

JT Well, I think so; you might do that. It is a question of change, the great word we should keep ^[p. 287] before us. Take the Lord Himself; He takes on a change; you see Him in different ways.

TU As to the moral side, it speaks of the apostle Paul, as concerning zeal, persecuting the church. That is what he was as Saul and his zeal, as Paul, had been changed to concern for the truth.

JT Quite so, a changed man. You read in Acts 9 of a changed man and the Lord appeared to him. He is a changed man.

SMcC As to the thought of the change in the millennial day, these scriptures in Isaiah 11 seem to speak of restfulness. Do you think the judgments as depicted in the Revelation prior to the, millennial day will mean the overthrow of the great systems of modern transportation?

JT I think so. We were speaking about the age of iron. That will not mark the millennial day.

SMcC I did not catch your thought. Do you mean in actual sense there is a lot of iron today as well as in a moral sense? That is very interesting.

JT Quite so.

CHH Would it be the idea of Hebron being seven years before Zoan in Egypt?

JT I think so, the town is given.

JW There are two ways the Lord Jesus is presented here, “There shall come forth a shoot out of the stock of Jesse”, and then as a banner.

JT This is all millennial. The question is now can you use it in ministry for the assembly, and I think you can. It is a question of the spirit of Christ and how it is developed.

RWS I want to ask a question about the means of transportation being altered. We have earlier about the angel flying in mid-heaven. You linked that up with aeroplanes, I want to be clear as to this.

JT I do not think we should take these things up as of any consequence, because the world to come ^[p. 288] of which we speak is of God, what God will have in the millennium; and it includes what is on the heavenly side as over the earth, the whole scene of things in heaven and things on the earth. The whole thing is to be understood for Paul is a minister of what belongs to heaven. We are to understand how it is to be seen now, and how it is to be worked out too in the assembly.

AB So should we understand that what you have in mind in relation to the setting out of the truth of the world to come whereof we speak is that we actually shall exist in relation to the celestial city, the heavenly city influencing the earth. Lunar time enters into it as to the earth, years, months, and days, but in relation to the city there is no need of the sun. The city is a great governing influence in the world to come.

JT Very good. All very instructive and I hope we all take it in. The world to come whereof we speak characteristically. We should not speak of our business; we may have to earn our living, but that will not be characteristic of us in heaven. We are dealing now with the world to come whereof we speak.

LES We were referring to the young people yesterday and they are here brought into this great matter, are they not? It should affect what they are saying.

JT And, therefore, the question is what the young people are saying. We are here now and seeking to speak of heavenly things to one another. When we go out and go home tonight, what are we talking about? Are we speaking about these heavenly things?

SMcC Eternal life would be one of them. We speak a lot of eternal life; that, in principle, involves the world to come.

JT Very ^[p. 289] good.

CHH In the millennium, the nations will be walking in the light of the city. Would that light be diffused by personal intercourse with, and instruction by, the assembly or will those of the assembly be able to impart it to the earth in some other way?

JT I am not sure; it is very likely that there will be some contact. I think it is right to be clear and we are likely to get down to the material things. There is some contact in some sense. I think there is some contact, but I do not know how much, and I do not know whether you do. We are changed into different bodies. We shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is.

CHH I think you have said years ago that Matthew 5 relates to the world to come. Would you think it is the Jewish idea?

JT I cannot be sure of what I said about it, but I do say there is light shed down on the earth; how, I cannot say, but I think there will be light in the sense that the Old Testament will be used down here and maybe what we have now will be used.

CHH The book of Ezekiel sets forth the priesthood then. Will it be actually as it is described?

JT I do not know at all, I would not like to say much on that point, although I have a very distinct impression, but I think that there will be a distinct contact between the heavens and the earth. I think there will be some.

RWS What you have said is illuminating. I have never seen that in just that way.

JT What is worthy and suitable to it, and we are speaking of things profitable to ourselves.

WMcK Would it be right to say the Lord would employ angels? There are twelve gates and, at the gates twelve angels, and it mentions the tribes of Israel as though the earthly side is in view.

JT That is very good. So if we converse after this meeting now, what are we going to talk about?

^[p. 290] what will we talk about in a general way? That is a test to us that we ought to pay attention to and become heavenly in our thoughts. The Old Testament saints spoke often one to another. What did they say? They were talking about things connected with Israel. Now what are we talking about? We are talking about the heavenly city and what is in it. We are going to be there. The new heavens and the new earth wherein dwells righteousness.

SMcC That was one of the themes of F.E.R. when he was here in America, the principles and elements of the world to come. You probably know better than any of us here. But it was not the literal earthly side he was referring to, but such things as eternal life and other things.

JT You get that in the printed ministry. It would indicate what we should talk about. We are separated from the world now. Therefore, we do not speak of worldly things now, but we speak of heavenly things; we speak of them to one another.

EJM Did you link up Isaiah 11 with Daniel to show the change effected?

JT Very good.

FW It speaks of the spirit of wisdom and understanding, and the spirit of counsel and might; it is a question of the spirit of things. Of course, that is not the Spirit. It is the result.

JT It is the result worked out in Israel in a day to come and in ourselves morally now. And there is the little child, the sucking child playing on the hole of the adder, and the weaned child. The children are there and are brought up properly and the old people as well are mentioned sitting there on the street.

RQ Would the thought of the little child leading them go back to the counsels of God in Genesis, in our image, after our likeness?

JT ^[p. 291] You cannot very well bring that in there. The children in the millennial day will be characterised by that spirit, and I think that is a thing to keep before us. A little child shall lead them, the little child is not intelligent.

EJM They shall not hurt in all my holy mountain.

JT No violence, no hurt in the millennial day compared with what we have in the world.

CHH Would Matthew 18 apply? “Unless ye ... become as little children”.

JT Very good.

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