WHAT WE HAVE COME TO (3)
[p. 153] WHAT WE HAVE COME TO (3)
Hebrews 12: 22, “And to myriads of angels, the universal gathering”; Hebrews 1: 5 - 14
JT It is thought that we should segregate this part of our subject — that is to say, what we have come to — in this reading, to look into the subject of angels according to what is stated of them in the first chapter. Angels are a higher order of being than men, and were created before men. We cannot say how long before, but clearly they were created before and are designated by Job as sons of God. So they are highly dignified in the divine mind and in divine service. It is thought that we should be a little more conversant with them, especially as it is said in Hebrews 1: 14, “Are they not all ministering spirit, sent out for service on account of those who shall inherit salvation?”. That is to say, we are the persons, men are the persons in mind to be ministered to. “Ministering spirits”, it says, “sent out for service on account of those who shall inherit salvation”. They were evidently used from the outset of the creation of man. Their service begins in the book of Genesis and runs through the whole Bible to the book of Revelation. So that it should occupy us, at such a time as this, as those who seek the truth and we might say are among those who inherit salvation. Angelic ministry is a prime element in our salvation. Even as to the Lord Jesus Himself, He said He could ask His Father and He would give Him more than twelve legions of angels, and so we read too, that an angel came and ministered to Him.
SMcC Does the service of angels bear mostly on our external circumstances, such as our journeyings, our occupations, our bodies, and the like?
JT Quite so. Then it is remarkable how they enter into divine things, and how some of them are designated archangels, having a special place with [p. 154] God, and how much they can tell us of things that we even do not know about. An angel spoke to Mary, the Lord’s own mother, and instructed her. All through the Scriptures we get remarkable instruction from angels and, therefore, it becomes incumbent upon us to look into what Scripture teaches us as to them, and it is thought that this meeting should be devoted largely to the subject.
EFC Do some angels serve in a priestly way and others in a military way? For example, Gabriel in priestly service and Michael in military service.
JT These are important things to notice, and you can see how in the ways of God they are employed in very great matters, very extensive matters, even in matters on which, as to ourselves, great things depend. Therefore the suggestion to all of us is that we should look into the matter and see how we may rely on the angels at certain times to help us. Not at all that we should pray to them; that would be idolatry and would be very wrong, but still we may ask God about them.
EFC Why do you think their service toward those of the circumcision was more pronounced than toward the uncircumcision? They are linked with Peter in a direct way, whereas, with Paul they are referred to as standing by.
JT That is a matter for us to look into and see whether a certain class of saints, the Jewish element, among the saved are paid more attention to than the gentile. I would hesitate to say much on that point, for I would think they are available to all of us. The word in verse 14 of chapter 1 is, “Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out for service on account of those who shall inherit salvation?”, not only those who are Jewish and not only gentiles, but all.
ANW On the boat when the shipwreck was imminent, Paul says, “I exhort you to be of good courage ... For an angel of the God, whose I am [p. 155] and whom I serve, stood by me this night, saying, Fear not, Paul”.
JT Then again we have one of them destroying a hundred and eighty-five thousand men at once.
SMcC In the book of Daniel their service seems linked with the opening up of prophetic events. Would that bear on the matter you are referring to, speaking to us about divine things? They come, do they not, in relation to the unfolding of prophetic matters to Daniel and all the people?
JT It is said he was greatly beloved; that is very touching — “O Daniel, man greatly beloved”, the angel told him.
SMcC Would there be in that way an intimate link between the angels and those who are in the testimony, as understanding the place they have and that they are dear in the sight of heaven?
JT Quite so. We begin to inquire in our minds how high they extend upward, the place they have in divine operations and then how they extend downward too. We get, for instance, in the gospel of Luke, a multitude of the heavenly host celebrating, “Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good pleasure in men”. That is, they are entirely unjealous as regards men, as ourselves. They respect us as servants would respect their masters, so to speak. They would respect those who are heirs of salvation.
ANW Mark tells us that as driven by the Spirit into the wilderness, the Lord Himself was ministered to by them, “And the angels ministered to him”.
EGMcA You would say that the angels instruct us according to that passage in Daniel, “And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, Daniel, I am now come forth to make thee skilful of understanding”. And then in verse 11 of chapter 10 Gabriel says, “O Daniel, man greatly beloved, understand [p. 156] the words which I speak unto thee, and stand upright; for unto thee am I now sent”. It shows that they can tell us things.
JT Quite so. Especially Gabriel as to the seventy weeks, “Seventy weeks are apportioned out upon thy people”. A very important epoch, and it was entrusted to them to tell Daniel about the bringing in of “the righteousness of the ages”. These are great matters and they were entrusted to angels.
JWD Do you mean we can be conscious of the personality of angels actually speaking? It was an actual angel, an actual being that spoke to Daniel. Are we conscious of the personality of these beings or is it an indirect service we are conscious of in an indirect way?
JT Our time is somewhat limited and we must make the most of it, but I think what you say is of supreme importance in the subject, and I will begin with such cases as refer to the Lord Himself, a divine Person, how angels regard Him and then their place in the service of God. What should occupy us to begin with is the exalted beings who are engaged in divine service, and what men say to angels and what angels say to men. How much intelligence they have, and whether it is to be compared with what the great apostles, like Paul and Peter, would have, and even how much any of us here in this day of small things might have as compared with angels who are invisible to us. We cannot say we see them, but they are here. We ought to be aware they are here; they are to be discerned, for things are happening by them. I think these are the lines which we should pursue for we want to get the full thought as nearly as we can in the time we have. I would suggest that we keep on as we have already done. We should consider how divine Persons Themselves deal with [p. 157] angels.
JMcK Does the matter of John 5 help? “An angel descended at a certain season in the pool and troubled the water. Whoever therefore first went in after the troubling of the water became well”. There was an awareness of the angel’s movements, while perhaps not yet seen with the physical eye.
JT Very good; an awareness, but the one man who needed it did not get the good of it.
ANW At the end of the book we are reading there is an exhortation as to hospitality for by the exercise of it some entertained angels unawares. I suppose they may be in that form; they were represented as men, but they were angels.
JT That helps to clarify our subject. Regarding the persons who appeared to Abraham, one of them was the Lord Himself. Jehovah, as the sequel shows, but two of them were angels, and so we take these examples of how angels may be with us and how we may be with them.
ASC In Acts 12 the angel said to Peter, “Rise up quickly ... Gird thyself, and bind on thy sandals. And he did so ... And going forth he followed him and did not know that what was happening by means of the angel was real”. That would illustrate the service of angels in relation to matters.
JT That is a good illustration and helps to keep things within bounds that they may be intelligible to us, that we may carry away some thoughts that may help us, that we may have to do with angels in a conscious way, and that we may seek to have an experience of this kind, asking God to give it to us. Acts 12 furnishes a very interesting case. Herod attacked the assembly and slew James with the sword and then proceeded to take Peter. Peter was put in prison between two soldiers, having been delivered to four quaternions of soldiers to keep, and he went to sleep. Someone was speaking about that in Bristol the other day and he told us reproachfully that Peter [p. 158] should not have been asleep, but it does not seem any reproach should be attached to him. He was in danger of being slain at any moment, but asleep, evidently dependent on God. We can take up these cases one by one, keeping the subject within bounds so that some of us, at least, may become useful in knowing what angelic service really is. It is going on all the time and we are enjoying it at this very moment in this hall.
HB In 2 Thessalonians 2 there is that which restrains. Might their service be occupied with that?
JT “He who restrains”, and “that which restrains”. “He” would be the Holy Spirit. It is important to keep before us that there is a restraining power at the present time against anti-Christian elements. There is government which God has appointed. “The powers that be are ordained of God”. They are useful to us and we may count on them.
CCT Do we see the service of the angel in Acts 11 in regard to Cornelius’ house; salvation is connected with it?
JT That really begins in Acts 10. Peter became concerned and went up to the house top to pray and he became in an ecstasy. While in that state something happened; he saw a sheet come down from heaven knit at the four corners and containing the quadrupeds of the earth, the creeping things of the earth, and the fowls of the heaven. It came to him and a voice said to him, “Rise, Peter, slay and eat. And Peter said, In no wise, Lord”. That is to say, there is something there for us to learn. He used the word ‘Lord’ to the voice. He discerned it was a voice and it undoubtedly was a divine Person talking to him and I would say it was the Holy Spirit. Peter says, “In no wise, Lord; for I have never eaten anything common or unclean. And there was a voice again the second time to him, What God has cleansed, do not thou make common. And this took [p. 159] place thrice, and the vessel was straightway taken up into heaven. And as Peter doubted in himself what the vision which he had seen might mean”, he was doubtful, and the Spirit of God says to him about the three men who came to seek him, “Go down, and go with them, nothing doubting”. The Spirit of God told him to go and Peter accepted that. All that comes into the subject we are dealing with.
CCT I was referring to the angel saying, in chapter 11, that Cornelius could be saved. Was that angel here connected with salvation as in the first chapter of Hebrews?
JT You should begin at chapter 10. Cornelius is there, and Peter coming into the whole matter is used to instruct Cornelius and his company about salvation, and the result is the Spirit of God fell on all that heard Peter. The Spirit of God fell on them there. There was no solicitation; the Spirit of God did it Himself. They did not ask Him to come; He just did it Himself.
JMcK It is singular that after the angelic help to Peter in Acts 12 he “related to them how the Lord had brought him out of prison”. Did the Lord deliver Paul out of the lion’s mouth by angelic service to him? We recognise they are sent forth by God on account of those who inherit salvation.
JT Yes. Angelic service is immediate and effective. We all ought to understand this so that we may come into it consciously and intelligently, and pray about it, for they are God’s ministers.
JMcK We direct our thanksgiving to God.
ANW The way it is put in chapter 10 is helpful. “... Saw plainly in a vision, about the ninth hour of the day, an angel of God coming unto him”.
JT He was intelligent and he understood it was an angel, showing it is quite possible for us to have such an experience and to know what experience we [p. 160] are having.
WHC Why was it that in the temptations of the Lord, one thing that came before Him was the question of the service of the angels? “The devil takes him to the holy city, and sets him upon the edge of the temple, and says to him, If thou be Son of God cast thyself down; for it is written, He shall give charge to his angels concerning thee, and on their hands shall they bear thee, lest in anywise thou strike thy foot against a stone”.
JT All that is most instructive and enters into what we are saying. We have to get the subject in order, and have in our minds what is happening daily in an unseen sense so that we may be ready when the time comes for us to have part in it, and to know that we are having part in it.
ABM'N Would this give us an intelligent sense of what we mean when we say we are dependent on God? While we recognise these are ministering spirits to us, we consider them as sent forth from God and we give Him thanks for their service to us.
JT Are we experiencing such service and have we intelligence enough to know we are experiencing it and do we give thanks to God when the thing happens? Something happens; an unseen power causes it to happen. Is it a divine Person or just an angel? Can we tell?
ASB Daniel says in regard to Gabriel, “And he informed me, and talked with me”; such information is valuable to us in our circumstances.
JT Now we are getting to the subject. He informed him; information is given to us. Have we had that experience? Can we say it was actually divine Persons, or was it an angel?
ASC Linking on with that, in the New Testament, we find Gabriel standing by Mary in view of the incarnation.
JT She was evidently given to understand. The angel said “I am Gabriel, who stand before God”.
[p. 161] He spoke to Mary and to Zacharias. These are wonderful things and they are within the Scriptures. They should be within our range and, so far as I am concerned, I want to know the thing, have the experience, and, if I have not had it, ask God to give me the experience that is needed. If we are in trial and there is something to be done, there is no reason why we should not ask God to intervene, if it pleases Him to do so, angelically.
ASB That is the word used in that section, “I am now come forth to make thee skilful of understanding”.
JT Very good, “Skilful of understanding”. We should inquire whether we have anything like that in our experience and speak of it intelligently to the brethren.
SMcC What you have said just now clarifies the matter in our minds, that in speaking to God in regard to certain matters we should be free to ask Him for angelic service. It is very helpful and opens up a lot for us to consider. It is very testing to discern the help of angels. The Spirit speaks to us and we have the idea of angelic voices. It would call for discernment.
JT Quite so. As we progress and as things happen daily in the world among the nations that may affect the testimony. God would help us to ask Him, God, about it, that they might be checked for the sake of the testimony. We should look for results after the meeting for prayer. We might get the answer on Tuesday or Wednesday, I am speaking practically. What happens is just like that. Things are happening every day and we might have to say to them, and effectively too. God has myriads of angels, and they are not idle, they are at His bidding and He is ready to use them and, if we keep on praying, He will use them, and use them even if we do [p. 162] not.
SMcC What has been going on in connection with the Taft-Hartley bill is an illustration. We should be free to ask God to intervene angelically.
JT I would say that fully. We see what is happening and we ask Him in our prayer meetings and in individual prayer as well. The Lord Jesus is over the whole matter and we can count on God to act for us. Things are happening in these ways, and it is important that they should happen. Why not ask God that they may happen?
VCL Would the help which we have had in discerning the different operations of divine Persons, and especially those of the Spirit, now make way in our souls that we might discern angelic service under God’s hand?
JT That is just the point. The word is myriads, myriads are used and available, all ministering spirits sent out, active, and our prayer would be in connection with what God would do.
JWD In the Old Testament is there a different basis? Gideon says, “Alas, Lord Jehovah! for because I have seen an angel of Jehovah face to face, ... And Jehovah said to him, Peace be unto thee: fear not; thou shalt not die”. It seems accompanied in the Old Testament, and even with Zacharias in the New, by a sense of fear.
JT All that is of great importance in what we are dealing with and, if we proceed on those lines and keep within bounds, we will reach something that will affect us in our minds. We shall get intelligent results.
JK In Manoah’s time the angel appeared to his wife and informed her that she was to have a son; he told her of the kind of son, and what she was to do, and she says, “A man of God came to me, and his appearance was like the appearance of an angel of God”. She discerned the [p. 163] angel.
JT Quite so. Let us pursue those lines and think of how we may occupy ourselves and whether we converse about these matters, whether we are conversant with them or have them intelligently, so that we can occupy each other with them. How great a matter it would be and how the state of the saints and the work of the saints may be affected by it! How changed we would be, instead of being occupied altogether with this scene, our clothing, and the like! We are gradually brought into the divine world and we come to the idea of the universal gathering, myriads. We become occupied with all this; and you can say, Well, what a remarkable experience during the past month, and the brethren could come into it. J.N.D. refers to a voice from the unseen world. It would greatly elevate the state of the saints to look into these matters and talk about them. They are real matters.
ETP Angels are also connected with children and sisters. The children’s angels “continually behold the face of my Father” and the token the sisters wear is connected with the angels. Why are the angels connected with the token which the sisters wear?
JT That is very important. You are alluding to 1 Corinthians 11, and these things are practical. It is a question of what the sisters wear on their heads.
SMcC It is very practical and important, in relation to what you are saying about the unseen world, that the sisters should be conscious, as drawn into the matter, of the angelic hosts looking on and the support they would afford.
JT I know that is so, not that I am calling attention to myself, but I know things happen, even in the night seasons, and you wonder what causes them. That is just what we are talking about now, angelic service. God sends them forth to minister, and they are really [p. 164] for us.
ANW Can we learn from the case of Philip? The angel acted in a kind of preliminary way, giving him general directions and then, as he heeds it, the Spirit speaks to him.
JT I think angels may represent simple ordering of circumstances in business matters, and so on, but the Spirit has to do with higher matters, and Acts 8 is a good illustration of it, for the Spirit takes part in the matter.
ANW Do you think it is proper to use the word ‘providential’?
JT Yes, it is.
TLS Does 1 Corinthians 11 mean the angels are concerned about order as to the man and the woman?
JT Yes. There is a volume of such matters to consider, I have been trying to keep the subject in order that our minds might be affected by it. There are so many things which could be brought up that you could hardly enumerate them, but there are certain outstanding matters to consider, such as Acts 8 and Acts 10. Paul said the angel stood beside him. These are important men before God, Peter and Paul, and we might learn from them in their experiences and count on God to give us something like that. We are to follow what the apostles did that we might have the same experiences and might bring them to the attention of the saints so that we become elevated in what we think about and do.
VWH In Acts 10 the Spirit of God speaks to Peter, but the angel speaks to Cornelius. Is there a difference in the order?
JT That is a thing to be noticed. The Spirit of God did not speak to Cornelius, but He spoke to Peter.
ASB With reference to 1 Corinthians 11 as to the recognition of order by us, especially by the sisters, I was thinking of the fulness of it in relation [p. 165] to Matthew 25, the Lord coming in His glory and all the angels with Him to establish that order.
SMcC One of the things that troubles us most is fear, the fear of man, the fear of the power of the enemy, but what you have been drawing attention to would help to eliminate that, so that we might be more restful in regard to divine interests.
JT There is a great deal of anxiety. We should not be too apprehensive about things. Sometimes we have fear and there is no cause for it; angels come in to support us, so that we may not be unduly apprehensive.
ASC Linking on with that Paul said, “For an angel of the God, whose I am and whom I serve, stood by me this night, saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must stand before Caesar; and behold, God has granted to thee all those that sail with thee. Wherefore be of good courage, men, for I believe God”.
JT Very beautiful, and brings ancient history down to us. But the Spirit is not history, but with us in present experiences. In the incidents recorded as to Paul’s shipwreck, the thing is made very tangible to us because the Spirit of God brings it down to us and angelic service brings it down to us too, so that we may say we may have something like that. We could have it, and why not have it? I believe what we speak of now elevates the brethren if we take account of things that are happening.
CCT When Peter comes to himself in Acts 12 he says, “Now I know certainly that the Lord has sent forth his angel”.
JT That is an experience that he had and talked about. But I would like to be able to talk of it too, and we ought to get into the custom or habit of talking about these things instead of ordinary, physical things.
JMcK I was wondering about the passage in 2 Corinthians 11: “Thrice have I been scourged,
[p. 166] once I have been stoned, three times I have suffered shipwreck, a night and day I passed in the deep: in journeyings often, in perils of rivers, in perils of robbers, in perils from my own race ... in perils on the sea, in perils among false brethren; in labour and toil, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness”. Would this indicate that the angels were ministering to Paul in all these circumstances?
JT What an interest heaven has in all that! Another thing that comes to mind at this time is the divine system at work. Christ is the Head of it in heaven, the Holy Spirit is down here, and angelic service is continuing in it. Both the Holy Spirit and the Lord Jesus Himself are engaged in superintending the whole matter. We come into it, we are those who are heirs of salvation.
JWD He says, “I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify these things to you in the assemblies”. Is that an actual angel or is it symbolic?
JT It is symbolic there because it is a book of symbols. Sometimes you have angels mentioned, such as Michael, “I Jesus have sent mine angel”. The Lord Jesus sent an angel representing Him peculiarly.
ANW Does not an angel in some cases represent a divine Person Himself?
JT Yes, in some cases. In chapter 10 it is undoubtedly the Lord Himself.
JWD Do you think there is a spiritual possibility of discerning one angel from another? Jesus speaks of “mine angel” and Peter says “an angel”. Sometimes angels are distinguished by name.
JT Michael is mentioned as known in some sense; he looked after the body of Moses.
EGMcA Linking up the statement, “Myriads of angels, the universal gathering”, with chapter 1: 14, “sent out”, would indicate that God is looking [p. 167] down and, through the angelic hosts, taking care of the saints even before they ask for it.
JT They are sent out. What experiences have we had in our lives of these matters?
EGMcA When Daniel was praying and the angel came to him, he says, Your prayers were heard from the beginning. Then God sent Michael, one of the chief princes, in answer to it. The priestly and military angels were operating on behalf of Daniel that he might understand what God had in mind.
PW Does Jude come into this? “Michael the archangel, when disputing with the devil he reasoned about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a railing judgment against him, but said, The Lord rebuke thee”.
JT There is an illustration of angelic service in connection with the body of Moses. It is brought out that there was a matter of controversy in connection with the body of Moses between the devil and an angel. The book of Jude records it. Something happened and the Lord knew and recorded it. The Lord knew the tribes would have made something of the place where Moses was buried and would have made use of it to make an idol to worship. God would not have it; God would not let it be known where He buried Moses; a very great distinction He gave to Moses.
JMcK Is the angel who binds Satan a person or symbolic?
JT I think it is an angel.
JMcK “And he laid hold of the dragon, the ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, and cast him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him”.
JT A very good illustration of the power that angels have in the service of God.
JMcK It is a great encouragement to our hearts, in view of all the opposition against the saints, that [p. 168] angelic ministry should sustain us and direct our hearts to God.
JT Yes, there were one hundred and eighty-five thousand slain by one angel in one night.
VWH Some angels are quite versatile in their service. The same one who had part in the judgment connected with the seven bowls of the seven last plagues shows John the bride, the Lamb’s wife.
JT Showing what is in our favour and what we really ought to come into and to speak of to one another for the encouragement of each other.
WMcK Would Luke help us to look for something specific in the way of angelic service? “The angel Gabriel was sent of God to a city of Galilee, of which the name was Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary”. How specific the whole matter is.
JT The Lord Jesus’ birth is an infinitely blessed matter, involving the ministry of angels.