READINGS ON DANIEL (3)
READINGS ON DANIEL (3)
JT We should be reminded that the object of looking into this book of Daniel is not exactly to deal with the prophetic subjects that are treated in it, but rather with the moral side that is presented. In no part of it is this seen more than in chapter 9, which gives us the personal exercises of the prophet, a model to us all, especially those of us who seek to serve the Lord in truth. So it is thought to read this chapter because of the context, that is to say the duration of the captivity, the scattering of Israel because of their sins, and Daniel’s prayer entering into this chapter peculiarly. He tells us the date, the time, and other details; then he proceeds to judge himself and to judge the people, and it is hoped that this will come home to us at this reading, those of us who are in any sense taking on the service, and to all of us, brothers and sisters and children, because of the great importance of holiness that appears in this section of the chapter. The next section, of course, begins with verse 20 and then the final reading will be on the last chapter. The book will, therefore, afford us instruction not only as to the prophecy of Daniel, but also as to the moral features that enter into it as appearing in the prophet and his companions, models to us all.
SMcC In relation to this personal side that you have been referring to, is it of note to take account of Daniel as a man that looked into things? There is a lot extant among us in the way of ministry and we need to look into things, do we not? He “understood by the books”.
JT That is exactly part of the burden entering into this reading. It is really what leads up to this part of the chapter being [p. 250] read.
SMcC One feels in regard to oneself, and it applies to all of us, the need to apply oneself more to looking into things. Ignorance of the truth is not excusable in our day because there is so much extant in the ministry.
JT There are fifty large volumes of the ministry of Mr. Darby, yet how many of us have read them? Then there is the ministry that has appeared during the last fifty years bearing on such subjects as eternal life, the ministry of Mr. Raven particularly, and the ministry as to the Lord’s Person, the sonship of Christ, and the service of God, in general affording instruction for every one of us as we have part in the Lord’s service. Finally, what is current, the ministry which the Holy Spirit has been pleased to open up in connection with Himself, whether that is understood.
JGH Is it important that Paul in his word to Timothy puts the matter of reading ahead of exhortation and teaching?
JT Just so, very good. That had been in mind. It is a very real question as to whether the brethren generally, especially the sisters, look into the matter of reading for our instruction that we might enjoy things and serve God rightly.
LES Would not the sorrows of the soul of Daniel underlie all this? I am wondering if there are spiritual feelings with most of us as to the circumstances in which the testimony of God is set out in our day?
JT What more affects our feelings than our heads, our intelligence?
LES Yes, and the sorrows of the soul of Daniel as he weighed over before God His judicial dealings with His people.
JT No doubt Daniel should be read, therefore, in the light of the gospel. What feelings the Lord [p. 251] had in moving about in the holy land! What feelings He must have had!
CCT So we find Daniel in this chapter as a man who prays with fasting and in sackcloth and ashes, a man with feeling.
JT Just so, in contrast to Esther. There is no prayer mentioned in Esther, but that is not to say, Esther and Mordecai were not praying people, undoubtedly they were.
CHH You see the same feelings coming out in Nehemiah and Ezra and in the apostle Paul.
JT In no one, next to the Lord, are the thoughts of the Lord Himself seen more clearly than in Paul. He is a model in that sense. He presents himself to the saints as a follower of Christ and begs them to follow him as he follows Christ.
SMcC And how often he speaks of his tears. They are mentioned quite a few times in the Pauline epistles.
JT He speaks to Timothy regarding tears.
RWS In Luke 24 the Lord said, “All that is written concerning me in the law of Moses and prophets and psalms must be fulfilled”. I wondered if the fact that we are looking into Daniel now would show how the Spirit is prepared to help us in relation to prophecy and all the prophets?
JT I think that is very applicable. Some of us in the East have been looking into the prophets a bit and these things came before us, I do not believe they have come before me any more than they have since I have been here. What an example David is for us. The Spirit of God is not slow in referring to the prophets. Peter especially speaks of them, all the prophets, he says.
CHH Psalm 42, “My tears have been my bread day and night”.
JT [p. 252] Just so.
LES Referring to Paul again, he answered, “What do ye, weeping and breaking my heart? for I am ready not only to be bound, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus”. Would that not suggest the feelings of his soul?
JT And then the account he gives of his works in 2 Corinthians is most touching: “Besides those things that are without, the crowd of cares pressing on me daily, the burden of all the assemblies”. No one of us could ever say that of himself, the cares of all the assemblies.
FT Would you say Daniel’s actions here would show that he is a true priest and prophet, too?
JT We might remark that it does not say he is a priest. It is said of Ezekiel that he is a priest.
FT Would you not say these are qualifications for a priest?
JT Fully, he is a remarkable foreshadowing of the Lord Himself and of what becomes us in the service of God.
Rem Jeremiah is affected by the desolations of Jerusalem. In his Lamentations he says, “Behold, and see if there be any sorrow like unto my sorrow, which is done unto me, whom Jehovah hath afflicted in the day of his fierce anger”.
JT So Jeremiah is rightly called the weeping prophet. Doubtless Daniel was, but it is not said of him. Jeremiah is a feeling and weeping man. It is a wonderful thing that is said of Jesus, a separate sentence: “Jesus wept”. Those two words are found in the gospel of John by themselves.
SMcC And it is interesting that that appears in regard to a locality where certain conditions were present. Does that not show what feelings the Lord has in regard to the local positions and what has been worked out in them?
JT He wept because of others, Lazarus, Mary and Martha. Mary is mentioned by Luke especially.
[p. 253] Could you enlarge upon the idea of locality and how much John makes of it? You thought the idea of locality involves the circumstances associated with localities.
SMcC I wondered if it would be right to think of the tears of Christ in relation to Jerusalem as bearing upon the general conditions and the refusal of light from God, whereas Bethany would represent more the inward side bearing upon ourselves and our exercises.
AB There is an excellent footnote in regard to Jesus being moved; John 11: 38. ‘Here it was inward feeling (in spirit) produced by the deep pain caused by seeing the power of death over the human spirit. There was so far indignation that there was deep antagonism to the power of evil and Satan in death. It may be’groaned’is the best word’.
JT There is no other passage that touches us more than this.
AB And you are impressed in regard to what has been said as to leadership. If it were more taken on by us how much spiritual prosperity there might be in our localities!
JT Yes, that is very good. You just wonder about localities in this country and Canada. Take a place called Buffalo, where I saw one or two in a meeting nearby, the only ones I know of in that locality. From New York to Buffalo or Rochester there are hardly any in fellowship. The question comes home as to localities: Why is it there is not more work done?
WMcK Of Ephesus Paul said, “Night and day, I ceased not admonishing each one of you with tears”. Those features entered into his service in the local company.
JT Ephesus was a company which bore very much fruit. Ephesians has the greatest place of all the epistles of the [p. 254] New Testament.
CCT Do you think that so few in fellowship between New York and here is why the local exercise is coming forward as to preaching the gospel on the street?
JT That came up when I was in Australia some time back.
FW What you said there stirred up the brethren everywhere.
JT We should be stirred up by it. They are preaching on the street there now.
CHH Do you think we should feel out to see if there is street preaching in other localities? When the Lord sent them out in Luke to the different cities. He said, “Into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace to this house. And if a son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it”. If a son of peace was found they would stay there, I was wondering whether even now there might not be a revival of that kind of thing. Those who are capable of preaching might try out different towns where there are such as may be designated sons of peace.
JT Very good, I need scarcely ask you what is being done in the Boston area.
CHH We can thank God that we are very much encouraged in the street preaching. The brethren are very active.
JT Very cheering to hear that.
VL Does not Daniel have all in mind when he speaks to God in his prayer of the men of Judah, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and all Israel as though starting with the men of Judah in grace he extends his thoughts to all Israel, none left out?
JT Quite so. The question arises as to whether the first preaching of the gospel according to Acts 2 was not in the open air, I believe it was.
SMcC I understand it to be that, in the open air. The way it reads would seem to [p. 255] confirm that.
CHH Would not the numbers who were there prove that it would be?
JT There would be no hall large enough.
AB You have referred to a city on this continent where thousands were gathered together to hear open air preaching by Whitfield.
EBM The Lord told the man in Mark 5, “Go to thine home to thine own people, and tell them how great things the Lord has done for thee, and has had mercy on thee. And he went away and began to proclaim in the Decapolis how great things Jesus had done for him and all wondered”.
JT There were ten cities in Decapolis.
RWS The Lord in Luke 12 says, “Ye know how to judge of the appearance of the earth and of the heaven; how is it then that ye do not discern this time?”. Daniel begins to add up and discovers in his time that they are coming to the end of the seventy years. Is that not a voice to us in our times?
JT So that we habitually orient ourselves to the ministry of our time and move accordingly and in accord with the ministry of the last hundred and fifty years. We know the ministry of a hundred and fifty years ago and what results there have been in this country and elsewhere in zeal, and the work of God proceeds in that sense, and it is to be seen in certain localities and in relation to certain persons whose names have been given.
FW Does verse 3 emphasise the exercise that should be upon us in relation to what you have been speaking of?
JT “And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth”. Wonderful, and added to that, ashes. “And I prayed unto Jehovah my God, and made my confession, and said, Alas Lord! the great and terrible God, keeping covenant and loving-kindness [p. 256] with them that love him, and that keep his commandments”. Then we proceed, “We have sinned, and have committed iniquity”. I suppose that would be one passage that would point to what we are speaking about.
FW I was wondering whether these sorrowful things he had to confess were not only matters of emotion, but exercises. The emotion is brought about by the sorrowful results present, but the exercises would lead him to seek Jehovah’s face in regard to matters being adjusted.
JT And the beautiful way in which he speaks to Jehovah Himself, “Alas, Lord! the great and terrible God, keeping covenant and loving-kindness with them that love him, and that keep his commandments”. And then he adds, “We have sinned, and have committed iniquity, and have done wickedly, and have rebelled, even turning aside from thy commandments and from thine ordinances. And we have not hearkened unto thy servants the prophets”. So that the prophets are brought in, the past prophets as well as the local current ones.
CHH Would the fact of loving God be the basis for these proper feelings being extended to God’s people? The sackcloth and ashes and reduction are like Abraham when he is interceding for Sodom and Gomorrah as though he had been reduced himself. Would not the fact that Daniel puts God and His covenants in the first place be a parallel thought with what you are calling attention to?
JT He has the qualities of a priest.
CHM Is it not remarkable in that way in the epistle to the Romans Paul brings God in first? “First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ”.
JT A good enquiry to look into. Take Hebrews 11 for example, it bears much on what we have been saying. It deals with persons who have faith,
[p. 257] they have qualities that commend themselves to God. By faith Abel, for instance, and by faith so and so, and so on right down the whole line of Scripture. The qualities are there that commend them to God. Without faith it says no one shall please God.
CHM So that, whilst I would not say anything against what is called popular gospel preaching, the weakness of it is that man’s need is made more prominent than God’s honour and greatness.
JT Quite so.
TC Would you say all these exercises are pleasing to God? Later in the chapter it says Daniel is one greatly beloved, I do not know that it says that of any other.
JT In Hebrews 11 Daniel is not mentioned, and Deborah is not mentioned either, though mentioned much in her own time. We have to note why persons are not mentioned and why they are.
LES Would not this chapter afford help in regard to what we were speaking of yesterday afternoon as to addressing divine Persons? Their names come into this chapter in various circumstances in a spiritual way in the soul of Daniel, “My God”, then “Jehovah our God”, “Alas, Lord!” and “Lord God”.
EGM Would you say Daniel is eating the sin offering in this passage?
JT Very good, I would say that.
EGM And he said, “I prayed unto Jehovah my God, and made my confession”. His prayer grows in intensity, does it not, until in verse 19 he is urgent with God? “Lord, hearken and do! defer not, for thine own sake, O my God! for thy city and thy people are called by thy name”. Then God answers him, sending Gabriel. I was thinking of your urging us to take on the ministry, particularly the sisters and the young people, for this prayer seems to be the result of prophetic utterances. He says, “I set my face”, because he is to take on the state of things before God in the greatest spiritual intensity.
JT Quite so.
CHH It seems to emphasise particularly that they had not hearkened to the prophets or listened to the word of God. Would you say that is the defect today? “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge”.
JT Well, that ought to give rise to the thought of lack of prophecy. We have meetings for prophetic ministry, but that means not simply that it treats of prophetic subjects, but of moral subjects such as we find in this book, the first chapter. It is the idea of prophecy, “but rather that ye may prophesy”.
SMcC Does not Daniel refer to that in verse 6? He has already referred to the books, to the written ministry, but now he says, “And we have not hearkened unto thy servants the prophets, who spoke in thy name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land”. That would be prophetic ministry such as you are alluding to.
JT Quite so. They spoke to the kings; the prophet spoke to David on moral lines. And David himself was a prophet, showing that the prophets can convict each other.
CCT Is it not worthy of note that in verse 6, “We have not hearkened unto thy servants the prophets, who spoke in thy name”? The prophets spoke in power in the name of God.
JT Quite so, these special meetings such as we have are meetings of prophets, brethren that can minister come together in special meetings, for the best of these meetings are the three-day meetings. We get variety to open up things.
VL While you get more able servants together in these three-day meetings, do you not think it [p. 259] should encourage us in our localities to see what one man with God can do?
JT Yes, what one man can do. So it was with Mr. Darby. His father told him to see what one man can do. We all know what one man can do.
VL Would not that be the burden you would lay upon us? One sister or one brother can do much with God.
JT One man or one woman can do much in a given place. Look at this city, there are many serving God and the prophets speak to the prophets, hence David was spoken to by a prophet.
RWS There are twenty-four or twenty-five three-day meetings in this country and Canada. They really provide practical salvation for the saints, especially for those in the small meetings.
JT I have many times before spoken of that. There are not many persons who can move about in service; we have only a very few in this country. Some have to do a lot of travelling because of business and the like and are able to get around.
EGM I was wondering whether the exhortations, in connection with attending these three-day meetings, “Quench not the Spirit; do not lightly esteem prophecies”, is important. By going to the three-day meetings, I come to where the Spirit is moving and prophecy is coming out.
JT Just so; so there may be not much gift, but they are not to be despised if there is prophecy.
CHH The Lord said in Luke, “It is written”, but He also said, “It is said”. In connection with what is going on now, people are listening to what is said.
JT But there is what is written. We have to carry that which is said in our minds. We can carry in our minds what is said at any given time.
SMcC In regard to what you have said of the three-day meetings which mean so much to us in [p. 260] this country, it is important that we should see to it that, in so far as we can, we should be intent to get the gain of them, the saints enquiring into the truth?
CCT Laying ourselves out for these three-day meetings would help us as to the things coming out by the Spirit.
JT Another thing that should be taken to heart by all of us is that what is said has to be carried in our minds, what is written can be carried in our pockets.
CCT Are you suggesting it would be better for us to have these things in our minds instead of in a book?
JT You have to make the book yours. We are to have it in the mind, “I myself with the mind serve God’s law”
JW Would that be better understood by these three-day meetings?
JT Usually they are taken up in this country. Saturday is very largely used as a holiday, making more opportunity for week-ends and Friday, Saturday and Sunday. We should encourage one another and so much more as we see the day approaching.
CHH Would you encourage the week-end meetings, too?
JT Quite so. It is not always convenient to have more. Certainly I would encourage them. The three-day meetings help us to open up a full line of thought.
CHH That is the extent we can bear, as the three days with David.
ChasT In regard to what you were saying, I was thinking of that scripture, the Holy Spirit “will bring to your remembrance all the things which I have said to you”.
JT The things the Lord said to them, pointing out what the Lord has given you to use, that [p. 261] is your memory. The memory can be used peculiarly.
WMcK The man Gabriel came to make Daniel skilful of understanding.
JT Now that brings up the whole question of angelic service to us which may be touched on for a moment. Why should it be that angels were created before men? We should enquire as to whether God had His own reasons for the creating of man. Angels were created long before, how long we do not know, but it has to be thought of.
SMcC What is your own impression as to the deferring of the creation of man? You raised the question in Chicago and some of us have thought a lot about it. You said a little more as to it in New York.
JT I do not know if I can answer it very conclusively. It is really a very great subject. The angels have no sex attached to them, but men have. God had in mind to have them earlier than men. Another question that comes up is that His beloved Son did not become an angel. He became a Man; and He becomes more endeared than ever to us because He became a Man, not an angel.
FW “When the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son”.
JGH Do you think the creation of angels prior to man has in mind the thought of worship? “When he brings in the firstborn into the habitable world, he says, And let all God’s angels worship him”. That would not have been possible unless the angels were there; it makes way for it.
JT It makes way for the idea of worship, the worship of God in man. I am sure that is in mind and has to be considered because the angels are seen as subject servants to that Man. He is greater than angels. God would not put the world to come under angels; the world to come is under [p. 262] man.
FW I was thinking of the wisdom of God in connection with it. In His wisdom He created angels first.
JT But man was the final thought, the abiding thought.
CHM Would you think the question God raises with Job as to “When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy”, bearing on the creation of angels, would show what God had in His mind?
JT Yes, because they are called sons of God. They are called sons of God in Genesis 6, in a detrimental sense, and we have to think of all that and of the idea of the position of the angels as made subject servants to God’s mind. All His thoughts were centred in Christ, in the Son. As to the Son He said, “And let all God’s angels worship him”. Then further the scripture says, “Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out for service on account of those who shall inherit salvation?”
ASC In chapter 8 Daniel sought to understand the vision and the voice of a man “called and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand”, “And when he came, I was afraid, and fell on my face; and he said unto me, Understand, son of man; for the vision is for the time of the end”. So Gabriel comes into activity in relation to that great matter.
JP This angel seemed to know about the prophetic ministry. The angel communicated to Daniel the prophetic line of things. But the Spirit would communicate a higher line of truth in the time that we are now in.
JT Quite so. God gave gifts to men, not to angels.
VL Were angels subservient to men prior to the incoming of Christ? It says, “Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out for service on account of those who shall inherit salvation?”. Does that refer to the second Man and all that are His?
JT It is the heirs of salvation; that is ourselves. They are subservient to us in that sense.
VL I want to enquire as to the status of angels and men before Christ.
JT Well, in a certain sense angels had the superiority, but we want what is clearly set out in the mind of God, for the Son of God became a Man and it is the final thought of God. Man is the final thought of God.
EGM Is that what is set forth in Hebrews 2? “For he does not indeed take hold of angels by the hand, but he takes hold of the seed of Abraham”.
JT Just so, I was thinking of that.
NB Peter speaks of angels desiring to look into things.
JT They desired to learn, to look into things.
CHM Would you say they are not able to communicate any light as to the assembly, but learn from the assembly?
JT Yes.
WMcK Would you say the angels have to do with the minds of men as well as with their bodies? It says, “I am now come forth to make thee skilful of understanding”. That has to do with his mind as well as his body.
JT A schoolmaster can help your mind to read the Bible, but the ordinary schoolmaster could not bring out the truth of Christ and the assembly.
AP So the Lord shows the value of the prophets. He says to those two going to Emmaus, “O senseless and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!”.
JT That was a reproof. He goes on to correct that, to instruct them. He is ready to do it.
RWS Why should angels be introduced in 1 Corinthians 11? “Therefore, ought [p. 264] the woman to have authority on her head, on account of the angels”.
JT I suppose it is on the line we are talking about, looking on great persons in the eyes of God. They belong to these families called sons of God, but at the same time they are subservient to men, especially those who form the assembly.
FW Does the reference in Ephesians help? “Who has created all things, in order that now to the principalities and authorities in the heavenlies might be made known through the assembly the all-various wisdom of God”.
JT The manifold wisdom of God is seen in the assembly.
JP You made a very helpful remark in New York which the brethren might like to know, referring to “For he has not subjected to angels the habitable world which is to come, of which we speak; but one has testified somewhere, saying, What is man, that thou rememberest him, or son of man that thou visitest him?”. Christ and the assembly is included in that word ‘man’ in the world to come.
CP Angels are necessary in view of incarnation, in having everything right for His coming.
JT Man was the idea. God Himself became a Man. Christ is God. We cannot give up that at all. We must hold to it tenaciously: He is God Himself. It is mysterious, inscrutable, but it is there. Scripture is full of it.
CP It is necessary to have wise prophetic ministry in view of the place the assembly has.
JT Quite so, how they are looking on, the angels! One angel was able to destroy a large number of persons at one time, showing the power they have.
SMcC Would not man as you have been referring to him, include the assembly, the feminine [p. 265] side? You were referring to the lack of sex among the angels. The assembly has such a place, the greatest place of all the families in the thoughts of God.
JT That would raise another question. There will be no males or females in the assembly; we will all be on the feminine side, I mean all the angels are spoken of as male. But Christ is the masculine and the assembly the feminine.
FW Does that give the clue as to the idea of sonship with the angels, but we are brought into it in connection with the assembly?
JT So Christ had a mother, but what would she become? She will become, undoubtedly, part of the assembly and be feminine as all the rest of us who form the assembly will be of the feminine thought and Christ the masculine thought.
JGH It is important that the image of God is connected with man, presented in Genesis 1 as a sexed being, “In the image of God created he him; male and female created he them”.
JT Quite so, “Male and female created he them”. The female is ultimately the assembly, the feminine idea entirely, in relation to Christ.
EBM God is going to tabernacle with men. Would that be masculine?
JT Surely, viewed as such.
SMcC Will the feminine side as you have been alluding to it in a spiritual way only be retained in the family known as the assembly?
JT Quite so, “I have espoused you unto one man, to present you a chaste virgin to Christ”. The feminine thought.
SMcC Israel is referred to in a feminine way in the Scriptures. Does that cease with the millennium?
JT I would think so. Great things will happen on the seventh day, so to speak, but the ultimate thing is Christ and [p. 266] the assembly.
SMcC We have often had allusion to the earthly bride, but that does not go beyond the millennium?
JT I do not think so. They are ordinary persons, men as we are now. So that this becomes an immense thought for us to consider as to Christ and the assembly. I speak, the apostle Paul says, of Christ and the assembly, one great thought.
CHH There are many families, but only one bride.
JT “There is one body and one Spirit, as ye have been also called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in us all”. That refers to ourselves.
SMcC Would it be right to think of the intense interest of the Spirit in the assembly, as related to all that we have been saying, because of her peculiar feminine relation to Christ, the Spirit being the power of union?
JT Quite so. The more we can get of that the better for all of us because Paul says, “I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly”. That is the theme of the great epistle to the Ephesians, Christ and the assembly. Let the sisters all take account of that. They belong to that, they will be sons, we are all made sons of God by faith in Christ Jesus. The assembly is a feminine thought. Am I making that clear?
SMcC You are clarifying what has been before us in this regard. Might I ask in regard to what we had in Chicago, as to the assembly of the first-born ones, does that allude to the assembly on the masculine side?
JT I think so. It is a precious thought; in Hebrews 12 it is one of the things we have come to. We have come to that. Who are they? They are the assembly, the supreme thought of God, they are registered in heaven.
SMcC [p. 267] The first-born there does not allude to Christ, it is the first-born ones, the assembly?
JT Exactly.
CHH Would you say the personnel individually are sons on the masculine side, but collectively we are feminine?
JT That is the idea. So God loves the idea of sonship. His beloved Son became a Man, but we have to distinguish there, for He is God.
CHH But those who form the assembly as we view them collectively are feminine, but in an individual sense are sons.
JT Of course, “What we shall be has not yet been manifested; we know that if it is manifested we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is”. So that everything takes character from Christ.
JGH Does Luke 20 confirm what you say as to our individual status? “But they who are counted worthy to have part in that world, and the resurrection from among the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; for neither can they die any more, for they are equal to angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection”.
JT Quite so, being sons of the resurrection.
FW The masculine thought does not necessarily include the thought of sex.
JT Not necessarily.
JMcK Will you give us a word of help on the thought of 2 Corinthians 5? “For we know that if our earthly tabernacle house be destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens”. Is that a collective idea?
JT I think so, the house would be a collective idea. We have a house not made with hands. It is what we shall be, in our eternal condition.
JMcK Would that be in Revelation 21, God tabernacling with men?
JT [p. 268] Very likely.
CHM When we are referring to men as in John 17, it would never do to put the word ‘male’ there instead of men. We are looking at manhood apart from sex.
JT When we come to the new creation, it is one idea, just man.
CHH In Revelation 12 where the woman brings forth a male son, would that be Christ?
JT Just so.
WMcK Would you help us as to Genesis 6 which speaks of the sons of God taking wives of the daughters of men? I am trying to get clear what you have said about the sexlessness of angels.
JT It is mysterious, one could not say more than that. There it is, a distinct statement.
CHH The angels left their first estate and God allowed it to happen.
JT The Lord allowed that to happen. They left their first estate, they are lost angels, lost beings. A terrible thing, and one reason for God bringing in the flood.