WHAT WE HAVE COME TO (4)
[p. 169] WHAT WE HAVE COME TO (4)
Hebrews 12: 23 (Second half)
JT We committed ourselves at the beginning of these meetings to these verses in Hebrews 12. We have followed it up so far and one’s thought is that we should still consider these scriptures. To this end we shall read from verse 23, beginning at the clause, “to God, judge of all; and to the spirits of just men made perfect”, these two items. The first is God. The fact that we are confining ourselves to very short passages in no way interferes with the magnitude of the things that are before us. We are said to have come to, “God, judge of all” and then secondly “to the spirits of just men made perfect”. It is now a question of concentration of the mind, first on this great fact that we have come “to God, judge of all”. Whether we can concentrate our minds on this wonderful statement, whether we can become expanded, because it is a matter of expansion now, is the test. The verses are so great and full, indeed so infinite that it is a question whether we can become expanded commensurate with the magnitude of the thought of “God, judge of all”.
EFC Does God, in this instance, refer to all three divine Persons?
JT I would say that. God is stated in this full way. He is not one of the divine Persons, it is God as such, and God as Judge of all. Not Judge of all the wicked only, but all, corresponding somewhat with the statement in Ephesians, “One God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in us all”. But here it is “God, judge of all”. It does not say the kind of persons or whether they are men; the range includes all beings, and we can assume that all matters, everything, will be rightly and infinitely [p. 170] dealt with.
ASB Does Peter give us a lead in this? In regard to the Lord Jesus in the first epistle he says, “for Christ also has suffered for you, leaving you a model that ye should follow in his steps, who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth; who, when reviled, reviled not again; when suffering, threatened not; but gave himself over into the hands of him who judges righteously”.
JT Very good, a very apt scripture to bring in. Peter is dealing with the government of God, so that, in whatever has to be gone through, we are restful, we commit ourselves to God.
HB Would it be right to link up what Abraham says, “Will not the Judge of all the earth do right”?
JT Just so, “Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?”. But when we come to this passage it is even more than that. It does not say all men or whether they are christians or believers, it is simply “all”. Those of us who know Him have more and more confidence. We can be restful, committing things to God who is the Judge of all; everything is included, such as international matters, industrial matters, and all other matters. We can be restful as leaving the whole thing in God’s hands.
CCT Is righteousness in view in regard to the Judge of all?
JT Quite so. Righteousness must be there. But then we are not qualifying God. We just, as it were, face the great thought before us and see whether we can expand intelligently and feelingly as to it. If we know God as believers we are all the more restful in saying we have come to God.
WMcK Is there a link between this and what we have in 1 Timothy, “God who preserves all things in life”, and “the blessed and only Ruler”?
JT Quite so.
SMcC In relation to expansion and our coming to God the Judge of all in this setting, does it stand [p. 171] related to the present time, to the assembly as linked with all the thoughts of God and to every thought of God being carried through in the assembly at the present time?
JT Quite so. The only question now that arises is what the scripture says here; we have come to God the Judge of all. We cannot say that it is a question of the service of God or any feature of judgment that is to be instituted, but can we expand to the wonderful thought of God as the Judge of all?
ANW Is there a link between the spirits of just men made perfect and God as Judge?
JT Quite so, but it is better to keep to the statement that is before us. Can we in our intelligences look up to it and weigh the thing as we are here sitting together? If we take illustrations, in this country the capital is Washington and we have come to Washington. We have already dealt with certain features, but now we come to the main thought of the head of the government, the one who is in the place of Judge of all. Even a criminal can have recourse to the President. That is the way the thing should open up to us. If we know God and have confidence that everything can be committed to Him, we can be restful. Everything will be adjusted. Whatever question has to be adjusted or adjudicated, we can be restful because all is sure to go well in the presence of God the Judge of all.
EGMcA Is that what Paul had in mind in Acts 20 when he said, “I commit you to God”?
JT Surely, but he said more than that, “To the word of his grace”. Committing us to God is qualified by “the word of his grace”, but here it is judgment. God the Judge of all; it is the presence of Him who is the Judge of all. Are our minds, intelligences, consciences, and affections able to open up to that, to expand in it, so that we are brought [p. 172] into it?
VCL Is it more a question of the nature and attributes of this glorious Person to whom we have come rather than His operations, what He is in the majesty of His Person more than what He is doing?
JT Quite so. It is not what He is doing, but what He is, the Judge of all. That means, of course, in the expansion of it what He is doing, what He is capable of, what we may expect from Him.
ANW In the economy all judgment is committed to the Son; the Father judges no one, but the point here is God, God the Judge of all.
JT It is important to point out that all judgment is committed to the Son; that is a question of departmental delegating of certain things to the Son, “The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand”, but then God Himself is here; are we able to open up to that?
EGMcA “God, judge of all”, would that include the judgment of angels who have not kept their original state?
JT Just so. It does not say who the beings are; it is simply “all”, so that it is God Himself and our having come to Him as the Judge of all. If any question of judgment comes up, if it is angels, for example, what will happen? The book of Revelation tells us what will happen, death and hell cast into the lake of fire. The book of Revelation would help us on the point of judgment, but it is a question of judgment of the wicked. But the word judgment is not confined to anything in the way of penalty; judgment here is any matter requiring adjudication; maybe the righteous are involved in it.
EGMcA Your remark as to restfulness of spirit greatly helps us to leave everything to be adjudicated in the hand of the one who is God the Judge of all.
JT Just so.
KR It says in relation to perverting of judgment, “Marvel not at the matter; for a higher than the high is watching”, Ecclesiastes 5: 8. Does that bear out what we are saying?
JT Yes, “A higher than the high”. The higher one is God.
ASC Did Peter learn something about God, the Judge of all, in relation to the matter of Cornelius? When he was told to eat, he said, “In no wise, Lord”, but the voice said to him, “What God has cleansed, do not thou make common”. He learned that this was God’s matter and not his. He recognised God as the Judge of the matter, did he not?
JT Yes. Therefore, it was a question of adjudication; whether or not the door should be opened up to the gentiles. The time had come for that important matter. Peter was not ready, but he was made ready; God the Judge of all made him ready, “What God has cleansed, do not thou make common”.
EFC Hebrews 4 says, “And there is not a creature unapparent before him; but all things are naked and laid bare to his eyes, with whom we have to do”. Would that be God the Judge of all in that sense?
JT “With whom we have to do”. Just so.
JMcK In Romans 11, Paul says, “Thou wilt say then, The branches have been broken out in order that I might be grafted in. Right, they have been broken out through unbelief, and thou standest through faith. Be not high-minded, but fear, if God indeed has not spared the natural branches; lest it might be he spare not thee either”. Is that in the sense of God acting as Judge of all?
JT Very good. That is within the enclosure of the three chapters of Romans in which the admission of the gentiles is in question. The result is to be that all Israel shall be saved.
WHC Does Nebuchadnezzar come into this? “Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour [p. 174] the King of the heavens, all whose works are truth, and his paths judgment”, Daniel 4: 37.
JT Well, there is another thing. Nebuchadnezzar is a man who is at the parting of the ways in view of the government of the world being taken away from the Jews and handed over to the gentiles. Nebuchadnezzar was called a king of kings. So that it is a matter of God’s right to hand over the government of the world to the gentile monarchies, the four monarchies. That is another great matter for us to understand. The problem involves the four gentile monarchs to whom the government of the world is handed over by God. I do not know if we all understand it. In regard to Daniel, “Seventy weeks are apportioned out upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to close the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make expiation for iniquity, and to bring in the righteousness of the ages, and to seal the vision and prophet, and to anoint the holy of holies”, Daniel 9: 24. The whole matter is clarified for Daniel and it is brought down to us now. We are living in the last monarchy, which “was, and is not, and shall be present” (Revelation 17: 8), which is the Roman. The final empire is the Roman empire and we are coming back to it presently. It is not now, but it shall be and, according to the book of Revelation, we have to wait for that. We have to wait for the revival of the empire itself. It is well worth our while to look into the subject of the four monarchies. It is a technical word used prophetically, dealing with the handing over of the government of this world to the four monarchies. The first is Babylonian, the second the Persian, the third the Grecian, and the fourth the Roman. The Roman is the one we have to do with and will have to do with; in the meantime, in principle, it exists now. So that now we come to God; that is what we are dealing [p. 175] with, but we want to look into that matter, for God will deal with that as with all other matters.
ETP This statement, “God, judge of all”, is not only calculated to make us restful, but also to sober us in that all our movements are weighed by God.
JT Very good. It is a question of patience. God is all powerful.
ANW Could we bear to come to God the Judge of all if we had not previously come to mount Zion?
JT Just so. The question of the gospel, mount Zion involves that. The matter is all settled in our hearts if we know God.
ASB Is there a word of encouragement for us in what David says in 1 Chronicles 29, verses 10 - 12: “And David blessed Jehovah in the sight of all the congregation; and David said, Blessed be thou, Jehovah, the God of our father Israel, for ever and ever. Thine, Jehovah, is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the splendour, and the majesty; for all that is in the heavens and on the earth is thine: thine, Jehovah, is the kingdom, and thou art exalted as Head above all; and riches and glory are of thee, and thou rulest over everything; and in thy hand is power and might; and in thy hand it is to make all great and strong”?
JT Very good. That brings up the question of headship, God is Head of all. The head of the woman is the man, the Head of the man is Christ, and the Head of Christ is God. That is, God is Head, the principle of headship ultimately reverts to God Himself. We have to understand how that works out. It is stressed in David because it is David that brings all that out, the thought that God Himself is Head, not only King but Head. These are great thoughts that we all do well to look into, in order to get on in the truth. These eight items we are dealing with should be looked [p. 176] into.
JMcK Is there an analogous thought in 1 Corinthians 15: 28: “But when all things shall have been brought into subjection to him, then the Son also himself shall be placed in subjection to him who put all things in subjection to him, that God may be all in all”?
JT Very good. That brings up another question that has already been raised, whether headship in God will go on into eternity or whether it is just a millennial thought. I think, however, it is an eternal thought. Headship must revert to God, must be centred in God Himself, and the Son Himself must be placed in subjection to God, that God may be all in all.
VCL Is there a link between God the Judge of all and the way God turns to Moses in Exodus 3 after observing the people and names Himself “I AM THAT I AM”?
JT That is very apropos. In the beginning of Exodus it is a question of God, and whether God, at that particular juncture, should be known in Israel, and God elects, as it were, to retire into Himself, I cannot use a better word than that. He retired into Himself and made Himself known, and the answer in Moses’ heart was that God is all in all.
JMcK Does the headship of God in eternity imply that all will be in the way of influence and control from God Himself?
JT Quite so. The more we know God the more restful we are about that. Everything will be resolved, everything will be settled. There will be a reason for everything. That brings up another thing, the idea of Ephesians 2, beginning at verse 19, “So then ye are no longer strangers and foreigners, but ye are fellow-citizens of the saints, and of the household of God, being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being [p. 177] the corner-stone, in whom all the building fitted together increases to a holy temple in the Lord”. Now I turn to this because of the word ‘temple’. That will explain everything in the millennial day, the temple will explain everything. I only refer to this to bring out that Ephesians is the suitable passage to find it. The reading is “being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the corner-stone, in whom all the building fitted together increases to a holy temple in the Lord”. That is to say, the assembly is increasing to something and that something is the temple and that implies everything will be solved in the temple. The idea of the temple is the solution of every problem. Every problem is solved in the temple and the assembly is that temple; it is God’s assembly and it is growing to a holy temple in the Lord. The whole matter is clarified here as to the millennial day.
EGMcA So that in Revelation 21 in connection with the millennial day it says, “And I saw no temple in it; for the Lord God Almighty is its temple, and the Lamb”.
JT Very good. That helps in what I have in mind because it fits in with Ephesians.
SMcC In relation to what you said as to Jehovah and what it says in Revelation 21, “God himself”, it is a touching thing, is it not, that, in the secret of His being, in so far as He can be known by finite persons like ourselves, He desires to be known? “God himself shall be with them, their God”.
JT Yes. All the divine thoughts and affections must go on to that, “God himself shall be with them, their God”.
EGMcA Would Revelation 21 connect with this? “And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of the heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband”.
JT Quite so, from God as such. That is, the holy city comes down from God. She is indigenous to heaven, not here and not going to heaven, but there already. She comes down from God out of heaven.
EGMcA So that the assembly is seen in its greatness as being the temple of God.
JT I would say that. Everything will be clarified in the millennial day; in the eternal day everything will be perfect.
NB What place do the saints have in this matter of judgment? Paul says to the Corinthians, “Do ye not know that we shall judge angels?” 1 Corinthians 6: 3.
JT Very good. Revelation 18 says, “God has judged your judgment upon her”. That is, God has respect for the judgment of the saints.
EFC In coming to the practical side of having to do with God the Judge of all, are we not to be exercised as to the matter of pleasing Him? Enoch had the testimony that he pleased God, and in the first epistle to the Thessalonians the apostle speaks of walking so as to please God.
JT It continually comes back to us that perhaps what most of us need is the principle of restfulness. We are not to be in turmoil, but restful in the presence of God, Judge of all.
EGMcA Would restfulness in God be more pleasing to Him than simply walking in righteousness?
JT Just so, I am sure what pleases God more than anything is that we know Him. We are restful because we know Him, “He understandeth and knoweth me”, Jeremiah 9: 24. That is pleasing to God. He has those before Him who know Him and are restful in the knowledge they have of Him.
TLS We can carry on God’s service in a known way on [p. 179] that ground?
JT Just so.
WMcK This matter of restfulness in God is peculiarly intensified in the letter to Philadelphia because the Lord stresses it, so much. “He that overcomes, him will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more at all out; and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven, from my God, and my new name”, Revelation 3: 12.
JT So that God is so pleased that He puts His name upon the overcomer. Therefore, the word, ‘overcomer’ must come into what we are talking about because that is what we are now in the presence of.
SMcC Do we have to hold in our minds, in a balanced way, the supremacy of God involving all three divine Persons, and the order in the economy in which God is presented to us in the Father?
JT Just so, so that we have to come back to the idea of specifying divine Persons, whether we know them, whether we can specify them, whether we know the Father as Father and know God as God, including the three Persons. Also whether we can specify the name of the Son, and the name of the Spirit, and whether we can specify each of the divine Persons. That would help us greatly in the knowledge of God.
JWD Is the complete idea seen in the thought of God as love? “He that abides in love abides in God, and God in him”.
JT That is good.
JWD Is that God in the supreme sense?
JT It is in the economy. He is known in the economy as love.
ANW John makes a striking reference to the Lord in his gospel, chapter 13, “Jesus, knowing that his hour had come that he should depart out of this world to the Father”, is one passage, but there is another, “that he came out from God and was going to God” as though it was beyond the economy, as we might say. Is that right?
JT Well, we have to watch that saying ‘beyond the economy’. We have to think carefully, because in what way do we know Him except in the economy?
ANW He was Son of Man where He was before. Is that not beyond what we speak of as the economy? I am thinking of it now that you are mentioning it.
JT God has come into the economy, the Father and Son and Spirit, but, of course, that is dependent on the fact that the Son has become Man. It is a question now whether we are on sure ground in saying ‘beyond the economy’, whether we have the right to say we have to do with Him in any other sense than in the economy.
ANW I only followed up what was suggested, that we should distinguish divine Persons, but to distinguish between the Lord going to the Father and going to God seems sublime. His going to God, when He Himself is a divine Person, is supremely wonderful.
JT Just so, but how much do we know about these things? What can we say about it? How does the Son go to God apart from the economy? Because the Son became Man and you have to say He belongs to the economy, and He goes from that point of view. As to the abstract thought, I am doubtful about our touching that, I think we ought to stay where God is pleased to come to us and I think that is in mind here. We have come to God, and we know the God that we have found, ‘Patient, gracious, powerful, holy; all His grace shall there abound’. And I think that is a safe place to be; where God has placed Himself within our [p. 181] reach.
SMcC I think what you have said is helpful because there has been a danger of thinking that, in touching the supremacy of God, we are taken outside of the economy, whereas we are not. We only know God as revealed.
JT I think that is right, and I am sure we do well not to baffle the saints in any sense, but keep things where they are, because if you go outside of that we are apt to get lost in our minds.
JMcK The greatness of the economy and God in it is brought to light in the word which Paul speaks to Timothy: “Now she who is a widow indeed, and is left alone, has put her hope in God, and continues in supplications and prayers night and day”, 1 Timothy 5: 5. He is bringing it down to a widow in her loneliness, that God in the economy is available to her.
JT That is good, a question of the widow.
JWD While we cannot know God outside of the economy, would not Scripture impress us with the infinite majesty which is before us in God? “The King of those that reign, and Lord of those that exercise lordship; who only has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen, nor is able to see; to whom be honour and eternal might”, 1 Timothy 6: 15, 16.
JT We have to bow to that, “whom no man has seen, nor is able to see”.
JWD The scripture brings that before us, to impress us, in some sense, with what we cannot know.
JT Quite so. We might proceed from this majestic thought, having spoken so much of it. One hopes the brethren would carry away something about having come to God the Judge of all. Now the next thing is the “spirits of just men made perfect”. And the mind has to travel back to a time when men were just and died. Some of them have been [p. 182] seen alive since, but, in the main, they are still in death, but we have come to them, not as dead, but as made perfect. The spirits of just men made perfect. We cannot say these belong to the assembly because they are not so represented here. They are presented as just men, not angels.
CCT Noah is the first to be called a just man.
JT Just so. We get the men from Abel and onward until Abraham comes in, but up to that time it is a question of Adam and those who followed such as the seventh from Adam. Beginning from there, on down to Genesis 6, then down to Genesis 9, and down to Abraham gives us the men in mind in that period.
EFC It says of Abel that he yet speaks. Would that mean that we come up against his sacrificial spirit in that way?
JT Quite so, “Having died, he yet speaks”.
SMcC This could hardly be said, could it, before the incoming of Christ, the incarnation, and the work of redemption?
JT It could not be regarded as perfect before that. These men who have died are now made perfect in their spirits. It is the spirits, you notice.
HB Would the last two verses of chapter 11 of Hebrews have some bearing on what you have been saying? “These all, having obtained witness through faith, did not receive the promise, God having foreseen some better thing for us, that they should not be made perfect without us”.
JT That is right. I think that would bear on it, not made perfect without us. But then we have to abstract them in the sense that we have come to them according to this passage, the spirits of just men made perfect.
EFC Is there a possibility of this working out in persons who are alive today?
JT Well, in the assembly, on the first day of the week, we are able to abstract ourselves and get into the thought of the service of God, I would go with that. You are dealing with the ministry, how the spirits of men are made perfect. How can we be in the assembly on the first day of the week unless our spirits [p. 183] are perfect?
EFC So that perfection is not dependent on the completion of our course?
JT No, for us it would involve the possession of the Holy Spirit.
TLS Does this involve the wealth that came out in Old Testament men?
JT It does in the sense that they are the spirits of just men. You could not say they were perfect then; they are the spirits of just men; that is the point here.
TLS Would it be cumulative now in that sense?
JT Cumulative in those that we have come to, if, in our minds, we apply the thought of redemption; it is abstract, of course, because they have not their bodies yet.
ANW We would have to include a man like just Lot.
JT Just so. Showing how extensive the thought is. He is called righteous Lot, showing that, although in the government of God, he got into Sodom, God regards him as righteous.
WG How do we come to the spirits of just men made perfect?
JT Well, the apostle Paul says that we have come to certain things and one is the spirits of just men made perfect. It is just a matter of light in our souls so that we can regard it in that way; we have light about these men. You say, Well where are they? We cannot say. Matthew says many bodies of the saints that slept arose and entered into the [p. 184] holy city and appeared to many. We can say that, but what more can we say? We cannot say where they are now, but we can say they are perfect, they belong to the perfect ones.
WWC Does the mount of transfiguration indicate the high spiritual character of these just men? Elias, it says, spoke with Him.
JT Just so. There appeared to them Moses and Elias and they spoke with Jesus. That is a special thing; it is a vision. You cannot just say you have come to them. We can say it in a sense, but Peter and John and James had come to them for a moment in a way.
ASC In relation to the incoming of John the baptist, it says of Zacharias and his wife, “they were both just before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless”. Is that in line with your thought?
JT The question now is where to place them prophetically. Do they belong to the Jewish economy and only it? It is a question of where to place them. If the Spirit of God is indicating that we have come to just men, it is a question of what dispensation they were in. Now they are called just men; what dispensation do they belong to? Well, I would say the dispensation about the time of Noah, running down to Genesis 9, because they are separated here from other things to which we have come. They are not in the Jewish economy, are not like David or Solomon or even the prophets, because the prophets reach on to the future. It is a question of what there was earlier, how God took account of men and things earlier. We now have the assembly and there was the Jewish economy, and God is taking account of these. God, at least, had men of that type at that time. We now have come to their spirits made perfect.
EGMcA [p. 185] You remarked about Paul coming to God’s thought in regard to these men. Does it indicate that there is a completion of the whole matter? Otherwise, the spirits of just men would be something incomplete, would it not?
JT I believe that is the idea. Paul by the Spirit is presenting the completeness of the position, the completeness of the unseen world as regards the men of the antediluvian day. They came in before Abraham, before the Jewish economy. I think that is the way we have to arrive at it. They have an existence and their existence is perfect, and we have come to them.
JVC Does this magnify God to us? With God all things are possible.
JT Just so, it shows what He can do.
JMcK The scripture states that those who draw near to God, “must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them who seek him out”, Hebrews 11: 6.
JT It is a question of coming now, coming to the light.
JVC Now it has come to light who they are.
SMcC Did I understand you rightly that this does not include Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses and David?
JT That is what I would think; these are antediluvians in general. We ought to take account of them rightly for we have come to them and they are made perfect. That is the way I would look at it.
SMcC I had never thought of it in that light, I always thought it included Abraham, but I can see what you have in mind.
JT Abraham is called of God and belongs to a family and that comes down to us through judaism.
CWA Would this encourage us in view of the conditions that existed then? “The earth was corrupt before God”, but God was able to preserve and carry through this [p. 186] witness.
JT Everything is taken account of. That is the point we have in these items we are dealing with. We have other items to come to and I am sure we will have help in them.
FHLC It says God is just and the justifier of him who believeth in Jesus. In what way could you apply that scripture to the spirits of just men made perfect?
JT You cannot say they believed in the sense in which that scripture mentions believing.
FHLC Can we view anyone being made perfect apart from the redemptive work of Christ?
JT No. Of course, they are perfect and that will be seen in the millennial day. The perfection which will be seen is based on the redemptive work of Christ.