THE HEAVENLY CITY
[p. 83] THE HEAVENLY CITY
Ques Are the two chief thoughts in connection with the city light and government?
FER Yes, I think so.
Ques Is there any connection between the two?
FER I think the light of the city becomes really the glory of the kingdom.
Ques Is there any difference between the heavenly city in the kingdom and in the eternal state?
FER You will find a number of details in regard to the city in the latter part of the chapter which you do not find in the city in the former part. There is no allusion to the throne or to government in connection with the eternal state. In verse 8 the narrative is brought up to the end, and then some details of the city in the millennial age are added.
Ques Does the heavenly city come out twice?
Rem It descends out of heaven from God; that is characteristic.
Ques But is there such a thing as a city in the eternal state?
Rem No; what is connected with the eternal state is the tabernacle.
Ques What is the difference?
Rem The tabernacle is more the dwelling where God manifests Himself. The tabernacle of God is with men. The city is for administration and rule.
Ques Is this the city that Abraham looked for?
Rem I believe he will find what he looked for in this city.
Rem The communications he had from God must have led him to the world to come in his expectations.
Ques Do you think this ‘looking’ was the comment of the Spirit on what his expectation was?
[p. 84] Rem The point was that he would not have anything which was not of God. He had been called out of all that was of men; he would not have any of the cities of Canaan, but only one whose builder and maker was God. The light may have been dim, but he had that thought, and it is an immense thing that we have what is of God.
Ques I suppose the heavenly Jerusalem would be necessary to the earthly city, for what is alluded to in the Psalms could not be carried out without?
FER I think so. You do not get the introduction of a city on the part of God till it has come in on the part of man. You first get Babel, and then Abraham sought a city; so, too, at the end you get the angel first shewing to the apostle Babylon, the idolatrous city, and after the destruction of the idolatrous city the holy city comes into view. The first city was for the glory of man, and was to carry the name of man. In the heavenly city, God has a name, as the earthy Jerusalem is the city of the great King, so the heavenly city is the city of the living God.
Ques I thought it was the revelation of the name of God that led Abraham to look for a city?
FER Yes, and that revelation was made to him when he was separated from man. Man looks for a certain kind of stability, and a name in connection with it. The idea of a city is connected with imperialism. Nebuchadnezzar says, for instance: “Is not this great Babylon, that I have built ... for the honour of my majesty?” Daniel 4: 30.
Rem In Germany they are trying to improve Berlin to make it worthy of an empire.
FER So, too, in England. London is the great imperial centre. People are not now content with a kingdom.
Ques What is the idea of a country?
FER Extent or expanse.
Ques Is the heavenly city the church only?
FER I thought so, because it is the bride.
[p. 85] Ques Why then are the names of the twelve tribes in the gates?
Rem Because everything gets its character from the church. Israel’s position by and by as the centre of God’s government on earth hangs on the church being the vessel of heavenly rule. They have nothing until the co-heirs are in glory with Christ. The church is, so to speak, that which fills up everything which God has brought in. The heavenly city is the crown and keystone of all God’s ways. You could not get the fulfilment of the promises to Israel unless the church was in glory. It is from the heavenly Jerusalem that the water of life flows out, and in it are the leaves of the tree for healing. All the hopes of Israel are held in the church in the present interval. You would not get government in grace apart from the heavenly city.
FER It is a great point that at the present time the hope of Israel is maintained in the church. The church has that place when apparently all is gone for Israel. Israel has given up its own hope and place, and it is maintained in the church.
Ques. How?
FER The first-fruits of Israel were gathered into the church. That remnant was the beginning of it. They did not give up the hope of Israel, and it is still maintained in the church.
Rem Paul said he was standing for the hope of Israel.
FER And so are we. We do not get, or claim, the elder brother’s portion. England has, in a sense, taken up the place of Israel in regarding herself as nationally a special object to God. We have to be content with the church’s portion, and we can then stand for those who, for the time, have lost their hope. God does not allow anything of His to be lost. He maintains the truth of Israel in the church. The great mistake is connecting the idea of nationality with christianity. The church has no part on earth. It is of the elder brother that it is said,
“All that I have is thine”.
Ques Is it maintained in our having the cup of the new covenant?
FER Yes.
Ques Does all distinction cease in the eternal state?
FER Yes. The prominent idea there is the tabernacle of God, and it is with men, not with a nation. That goes back to God’s original intention, God and man together. There will be no more sea, no more division of men into nations.
Rem Heaven and earth will touch very closely; they communicate with each other in the eternal state.
Ques What are the principal features of the city?
FER You get glory, light, walls, gates. And these are things that ought to characterise us now, for where the church has failed we never get its witness restored, and faith goes on to what is to come; there is no good in looking back, but if you go on to the future you return to original principles and get power to hold what God set up at the outset; you are effective in the present, for you seek to maintain in the present what will come out in the future. In principle there can be no difference between what will come out in the heavenly city and what marked the church at the outset as witness. You get the glory mentioned before you get the light, and the light before the other details which are characteristic.
Ques What is the thought connected with the glory of God?
FER You get it in 2 Corinthians 4. “God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ”. It is the effulgence of God shining out in all that God is, in His own moral lustre and perfection; not merely the revelation of God. It includes the fulfilment of prophecy. It is like what you get in Hebrews 1, of the Son. It says, “Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power”.
Ques What is “Her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal”?
FER “Her shining” would be a better word, it is her reflection. It is a moral idea; when God comes out He sets aside all the glory of man and brings out His own glory. It is no longer God acting under a veil of providence, He comes out as to all that He is.
Ques What is “her shining”?
FER The glory of God lightens it, for the shining of it forth. A precious stone only reflects light, it has none in itself. Put it in a dark place, and you see no shining. It is the same word as in Philippians, “Among whom ye shine as lights in the world”.
Ques Will the shining of the city be expressive of God?
FER Yes, that is what it is, it is reflected light.
Ques Is that the glory of the Father?
FER It is more the thought of God, the glory of God. Each Person of the Godhead has His own glory. It is a great thing to “rejoice in hope of the glory of God”, and what follows on that is, that all before Him must be according to His glory. We can rejoice in hope of the glory of God, but we are not prepared for it save as we are according to it. There is a great deal in us which is not according to that glory, and so we come under discipline, and the fact that we come under discipline proves that we are not according to God’s glory; when we are, there will not be any more discipline. When the heavenly city comes out, all in it is according to God Himself. Adam in Eden was not unsuitable to the glory of God, but he was hardly according to it. I anticipate the glory now though I am not yet according to it, and if I did not cherish the expectation of it I could not rejoice in it. The knowledge that we shall be according to the glory of God enables us to rejoice in the hope of it. “It doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is”. It is certain that if God displays His glory what is before Him must be according to it. We have the love of God shed abroad in our hearts, which is the source of all, and God is working now that we may be morally according to His glory. Israel will be lightened by the glory of God, so too the nations, but the church is that which alone has the glory of God, because it alone is completely suitable to it.
Ques “Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages”. Is that because all in her is suitable to it?
FER Yes. That is what is seen in the city.
Rem In Old Testament times the glory was concealed behind the veil, no one could walk in the light of it, and the priests were driven out, for things were not according to that glory.
Rem All that is to be known of God by and by will be known through the church.
Ques Is that the fulness of Him that filleth all in all? Ephesians 1: 23.
FER That is connected with Christ and the bride idea. “Gave him to be the head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all”. Afterwards we see the church filled unto all the fulness of God. The point is to be in the light of the city now; God is going to display His glory and the church will be according to it, and we ought to be deeply exercised to be according to it now. There is no use in speaking of rejoicing in hope of the glory of God if we are not exercised as to being according to it now, which means having the light of the heavenly city before us. We wait the appearing of that glory. (See Titus 2: 12, 13.) “We should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ”. Man’s glory — everything of man is really childish in a moral point of view. When you take a moral survey of things, all here — all that is connected with the [p. 89] glory of man seems very poor.
Ques How will the glory be manifested by and by?
Rem It is really the church which forms the wealth of God’s glory. It is wonderful to think of that when God speaks of “the riches of his glory”. Romans 9: 23.
Ques What are the walls of the city?
FER The idea in them is that of exclusion, it does not mean security; the city is exclusive by the very nature of it; all worldliness, all impurity, all that is contrary to God is excluded by the very nature of what the city is. If you want holiness that is how you get it. Holiness is to be promoted because of the fact that we are to be “holy and without blame before him in love”. And again, “You, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and un-blameable and unreproveable in his sight”. Colossians 1: 21, 22. We want the walls great and high to be before God holy and un-blameable.
Ques How is that promoted now?
FER By the knowledge of God’s holy love. No other way is possible. Love is exclusive because it is holy.
Rem The walls are part of the city, not encircling it, and in the very nature of things it excludes all that is not of God.
FER People are slow to get hold of great divine ideas, what they do is to take up texts of scripture and sentiments.
Ques Do not you think that the glory disperses all that is contrary to it?
FER Well, I should not like to be dispersed then, I should rather the dispersion took place now.
Ques How is what is contrary dispersed?
FER By discipline. God disciplines us now to remove what is not according to His glory. There will not be discipline then. Discipline is the expression of perfect love. No one would desire to be without it, because so conscious [p. 90] of needing it.
Ques Is it in view of light?
FER It is to make room for it. It is children whom God chastens, there is no chastening for sons. The distinction between children and sons is extremely nice, one merges into the other, but there is a shade of distinction. We are children now and in the light of sonship. Sonship is connected with the divine purpose. In the sanctuary you are come to the place of sonship. Children come under the discipline of God, and God does not pass over anything in His children, and no right-minded child would want to escape discipline. It is that we should be “partakers of his holiness”.
Ques In Hebrews 12 it asks, “what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?”
FER That is a quotation from the Old Testament. “Let my son go, that he may serve me” is the idea of a son — “that he may serve me”.
Ques Is this cry for imperialism a sign of the times?
FER It cannot come out fully until the church is gone. God started with the rule of the heavens, and nothing will be right here until the rule of heaven comes in morally. Then everything will be set right on earth. You will not have one bit of the glory of man there. The appearing of the glory of God will wither up all the glory of man.
Rem With regard to the new Jerusalem J.N.D. has said that it is remarkable that you do not see any one. You see the city and the glory of God. Though the names of the twelve apostles are there, not one of the names is given. So we are told that the names of the twelve tribes were on the breastplate of the high priest, but we are not told their names.
FER The fact is, all is so perfectly balanced of God, there can be no room for human prominence.
Ques How does the promise to the Philadelphian overcomer come in here? Revelation 3: 12.
FER It is remarkable that in the last three churches Christ presents Himself in characteristics which are [p. 91] either moral or are connected with the kingdom, and carry you on to the kingdom. In Thyatira you come to the end of the church, and from that point onward Christ presents Himself in other lights. In the promise to the overcomer in Philadelphia we get, “will I make a pillar in the temple of my God ... and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God”. The church has failed, and therefore there is the looking forward to the kingdom. What enables any one to maintain now is seeing God’s idea. One wants to be characterised by “the city of my God” now.
Ques Why is there no temple in the city?
FER There is nothing to enshrine because God is everything. One part is as holy as another. It is wonderful that we shall be able to bear God’s glory, and shall be in the presence of that glory with exceeding joy. We ought to be under its power now, and nothing less than that satisfies the new man.
Ques What is the force of the expression, when the kingdom is delivered up, “that God may be all in all”? 1 Corinthians 15: 28.
Rem When everything is subdued God morally will fill all. He will fill His own creation.
Ques Is that the idea in “the tabernacle of God is with men”?
FER Yes.
Ques What is the force of God being all in all — is it power?
FER It is nature, life, and that is love. God is all in all. Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Son is subject, the Spirit is pervading, as Mr. Darby says, ‘By the Spirit all pervading’.
Ques What is the force of the kings of the earth bringing their glory to it?
FER I think they recognise the church in its own proper place in relation to God and the Lamb. It is in [p. 92] that way that God connects Himself mediately with the world to come, and the church has that place as the vessel of the glory.
Ques Do the nations derive their glory from it?
FER I do not know; you cannot separate the church from Christ. “If we suffer, we shall also reign with him”. But the Lamb’s wife shares all that belongs to the Bridegroom, and that brings in an important point — that as the bride we ought to be faithful to the Bridegroom, and properly to lose our own interests in those of the Bridegroom. The “husband is known in the gates” in that day, and He should be known there now. Union is with the exalted Man, association is with the Son of God.
Ques. Is union future?
FER Not altogether. “The Spirit and the bride say, Come” now. The sanctuary brings in the thought of association with Christ, and is in one sense a greater thing than union. Ephesians 1 is association — sonship. (See verse 5.) In association you are with Him as the Son of God. You never can be united to the Son of God as such. Union is with the exalted Man. Mr. Stoney brought that out: I did not see the force of it at the time. Sonship brings you into association with the Son of God.
Rem Then association must be something higher that what we get here.
FER Yes; Mr. Darby pointed out that to be placed in association with Christ is greater than what you get here — greater than to be the bride, the Lamb’s wife, though there could not be association without union. In the bride idea you are united to Christ, but in sonship you are with Him as His companions in the presence of the Father.