ETERNAL LIFE
ETERNAL LIFE
WR I think you said on a previous occasion that “eternal life” is a sphere of blessing — ‘it is not a possession and belongs properly to the world to come’. I made that remark to someone, and he politely said that he did not believe it. Will you please make it clear to me?
FER If you trace it through Scripture, to begin with, the first allusion to it is in Psalm 21, “He asked life of thee and thou gavest it him, even length of days for ever and ever”.
Then I think the next thought connected with it is in Psalm 133, “There the Lord commanded the blessing (which, I take it, refers to Zion) even life for evermore”. The next allusion to it is in the last chapter of Daniel (verse 2): “And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt”. It is perfectly evident that all these passages have to do with the earth and that they undoubtedly refer to the millennium: The difference between Psalm 133, and the last chapter of Daniel is this: in the former I take it that eternal life is connected with the Jew, and the last chapter of Daniel carries the thought out to Israel.
I think the point to which I should next refer is Matthew 25, the last verse: “And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal”. The importance of that passage is that it carries the thought out to the gentiles; you get the Jew in Psalm 133, Israel in the last chapter of Daniel and the gentiles in Matthew 25 — eternal life having its application to all. The question was raised with the Lord: He speaks of eternal life and says “In the coming age eternal life”.
These passages make it perfectly clear that eternal [p. 94] life is in the coming age — the millennium. The coming of Christ brings it in, that is, for the world to come, but we get it in anticipation now, as risen together with Christ — we come into what is properly characteristic of the age to come. You may speak of many other things which we anticipate in the same way — things which properly belong to the world to come, but we anticipate them. We are risen together with Christ now, we have not to wait for the millennium; and thus we come into eternal life now. That is the way I understand it. With the Jew the thought is always connected with eternal life on earth.
Rem Eternal life was usually looked upon as the portion of the christian which he took possession of as soon as he believed.
FER That I cannot understand, for the Lord says, “Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life”, and the Spirit is “a well of water springing up into everlasting life”; “grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life”. It is a point to be reached in the soul, “He that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting”.
Ques How do you understand John 17: 3?
FER That shows the character of what it is; christians according to the mind of God are risen together with Christ, brought into association with Him on the ground of resurrection, and their privilege is to “know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent”. That is how we come into the good of it now — brought into sonship, into association with Christ as a priestly company, and it is in that way we come into eternal life. A kind of conventional teaching may spring up amongst us which really comes to be very often astray from the truth. Many of these things were meant right enough at the outset, but they have got fixed and stereotyped, and have come to be conventional, and the moment they get into that shape, the moulds are too rigid to hold the truth, and the truth breaks them. You must get rid [p. 95] of the mould in order to keep the truth very often. It may serve very well and be useful for the moment in order to present the doctrine and that kind of thing, but sooner or later you find the moulds are too rigid to hold the truth and you get rid of the mould and get hold of the truth.
Rem I suppose these passages do not militate against John 3: 16 and John 5: 24?
FER Not at all. We come into things by anticipation — things which properly belong to the world to come.
Ques “He that ... believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life”. It is true now?
FER That is the kind of person that has it.
Ques How is eternal life obtained?
FER By the Spirit: “He that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting”.
Ques When is one prepared for it?
FER When the Spirit springs up, and they are prepared to let everything in the way go. It springs up into everlasting life.
Ques Is a man specially conscious of reaching this stage?
FER Yes. The first thing is, he comes into the fellowship of Christ’s death, and it is in that way he gets to the other side of Jordan, into the land of promise, where Christ is. You cannot bring Christ into the wilderness — and a great part of our christian experience has to do with the wilderness.
Ques What is the difference between “Life forevermore” in Psalm 133 and eternal life which is our portion?
FER There is none. The general idea is the same, only we get it in a different shape, from what they do. They will get it in connection with the presence of Christ here and temporal blessing. That is the meaning of the words “There the Lord commanded the blessing” — God ordained it. I think you get an allusion to it in John 12: 50, “I know that his commandment is life eternal”. He ordained the blessing, appointed it. Any appointment of God is His commandment.
Ques I suppose it is in John the links are broken?
FER Yes, I wonder how many people are prepared to let all go, to reach Christ. Take what is going on at the present time: it only proves to me that they mind earthly things — I know it in myself — the Englishman asserts itself a bit. The apostle wept over people minding earthly things. Our citizenship is in heaven. Many people do it thoughtlessly, it is not exactly purpose that they pay attention to things here unheavenly. But the apostle was very strong about it — “Of whom I have told you often, and now I tell you even weeping”, and one great point was, “they mind earthly things”. In contrast to that he says, “our commonwealth has its existence in the heavens”.
Earthly things are the political things which are going on on earth, and when I see saints pretty much occupied with newspapers and having a keen interest in things which are going on in the world — which need not affect them one bit — I say, they mind earthly things.
These verses (John 7: 37 - 39) complete the teaching of chapters 5, 6, and 7. I spoke of these chapters as being the evidence of christianity: chapter 5 presenting the Father and the work; chapter 6 brings in the Son of man and the ministry of bread, and chapter 7 the living water flowing out of the believer, which brings in the Holy Spirit. All these go out of the church at the present time: men that were dead are made to live — that brings the Father in; there is the ministry of bread for believers, and there is the water flowing out of the belly of the believer. So you have evidence of the Father, of the Son of man and of the Spirit down here.
Rem We have usually looked at the living water flowing out of the believer as the gospel.
FER I think it is too limited altogether. Properly speaking living water will flow out of Jerusalem, i.e.
[p. 97] health-giving influences. And it is the same with the believer: all that flows out of him is really helpful and ministers life, it has that character by the Spirit, and it is for the benefit of men. What will flow out of Jerusalem when it is established will be for the benefit of the whole earth. So it is now, that out of the belly of the believer shall flow rivers of living water, there is an overflow.
Ques In that way I suppose the need of souls is met?
FER Yes, my feeling about it is that in every circle in which I am placed, all the influence which goes from me should be healthful and savour of life.
Ques It is individual then?
FER Yes, I think you come to what is collective in chapters 9 and 10. I feel condemned for myself very much in the face of this scripture: like a kind of well or pump, the water is there but does not come to the surface.
Rem This supposes a good previous history, because what flows out of the belly is what the man is.
FER It is what the man enjoys. It is all connected with Jesus glorified. The point is that in going to heaven Christ has carried every divine interest for the earth up with Him. It is a great comfort to me to think that God has plenty of interests here on the earth and that they are secured in Christ in heaven, and we are in the secret of it.
Ques This carries a good deal more in it than being able to give helpful answers, when questions are put to us?
FER Yes, I think so. It means that you are able to give something helpful apart from that.
Ques Do you connect 2 Timothy 2: 21 with this? “If therefore one shall have purified himself from these”.
FER That is preparatory. I think the thought in John 7 goes beyond that. The Lord is speaking more of what is normal in John 7 and does not contemplate all the evil in christianity that you have to purge yourself from — “This spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive”.
It is a great point with me that the earth has no future in politics.
Ques Do you mean that it will all be stopped?
FER It may be stopped at any moment. Then again no politician can tell what is going to take place. It is a remarkable thing, but William Pitt, who was a pretty cute politician, on the verge of the country going to war, said, ‘There never was a moment when the state of Europe so guaranteed the continuance of peace’. And within 12 months the country had to enter upon a war which lasted some 15 years. That shows you what politics are.
Ques Is there any reason why one should take no interest in it?
FER All I say is this — there is no future for the world in politics. It is the power of affection that carries our hearts out of earthly things. I like people to take an interest in the earth in right things, but the great point is, there is no future for the earth in politics. There is a future for the earth, and the future lies in the promises of God, which centre in a Man, who is at the right hand of God. The world has turned that Man out, so that we could not rightly have any interest in politics. It is of the deepest interest to me that Christ has carried to heaven every divine interest down here.
Ques Will they come back again?
FER Yes, all will come out in Christ and we shall reign with Him.
Ques So you would encourage the study of prophecy?
FER As to the general idea of it, yes; I like to go through Scripture to get every purpose of God. You get all the interests of God down here, but Christ has been here and has carried every interest up to heaven — therefore, every interest of mine is in heaven. The effect of that down here on the earth is that out of my belly flows “living water”. As regards the promises and prophecies of God connected with the Jew, the Jew does not cherish them. He has turned to money-making and what not, but the church is holding the ground of the Jew.
Ques The history of the Jew is completed for this moment, is it not?
FER Yes, but there are many things belonging to them — there is a portion for the Jew, but that portion is cherished in the church, because the church is in the light of Christ. The church knows that their portion hereafter is secured, and cherishes it; and that accounts for the names of the twelve tribes being inscribed on the gates of the heavenly city.
Ques When you say that Christ has carried every interest into heaven, is there no interest for Him down here?
FER There is no interest in connection with the earth now; there is the church and that is heavenly.
It is of profound delight to me to think that every purpose and promise of God is secured to God’s glory in Christ; that is, in the Man that is in heaven. There is another point connected with it, and that is, the church is united to that Man, so that the church will participate in His glory. By the very fact of the Spirit being here there is a restraint on lawlessness. So long as the Spirit of God is here you will undoubtedly find a certain respect maintained for the authority of God.
Ques And would that not be the Spirit working with the world?
FER No. It is consequent upon the Spirit being in christians.
Ques The restraint is increased or decreased according to the number of christians?
F.E.R. Exactly!
Ques Will you tell me what that scripture means — “My spirit shall not always strive with man”.
FER God was going on with a testimony [p. 100] of righteousness, and that was in view of the flood, I take it.
Ques And do you not get the long-suffering of God today?
FER I do not think God is dealing with men on that ground. All that kind of thing came to an end in the death of Christ What God does now is to present the idea of ‘Head’. He presents to men the testimony of Christ, but does not strive with man. I think the whole state of things was entirely altered after the death of Christ.
Ques “Ye do always resist the Holy Spirit”, would that refer to the gentiles as well as the Jews?
FER It would not have quite the same application. The fact is this, that the gentile has to a certain extent accepted the testimony of God, which the Jew resisted.
What God said was that the word would be preached to the gentiles and they would hear it.
Ques Does not the Spirit of God reprove the world?
FER He did when He came, by the fact of His being here. He convicts the world of sin, because they believe not on Him. Christ is the test, the Spirit was not the test.
Ques What does the Spirit come for really?
FER To conduct a company to Christ and all the other is incidental to that.
Ques Is that not made good in the assembly?
FER Yes. The Spirit does not bring us to heaven, Christ brings us to heaven, but the object of the Spirit is to conduct us to Christ now.
Ques What did you mean just now, when you said that Christ does not come to us in the wilderness?
FER We must get to Him, where He is, that is the meaning of the passage in Colossians, “Christ in you the hope of glory”. I think that is all the other side, it is the mystery connected with the body.
Ques Does chapter 6 correspond to the Jordan more?
FER [p. 101] No, chapter 6 is on the way, and is connected with the wilderness; it would not run with Colossians and Ephesians. In chapter 6 the great point is the “Son of man” and the evidence of the Son of man is that there is the ministration of bread down here. Verse 53 is the appropriation of His death. It is not the way of life, it is through the life.
Ques The words “Ye have no life in you” would hardly be true of one of God’s children, would they?
FER No. It is death come in as a test, and if they do not eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink His blood, it is a proof they have no life in them. What I understand by it is this: it is the soul’s appreciation of the grace which comes to us in the death of Christ and it continues. The fact of it all is, that there is bread for the believer, and you cannot prevent believers having the bread. I believe there are two things in which you find bread, you find it in His death, and you have it in His priesthood. With regard to the latter, we are at the throne of grace, and obtain mercy and find grace to help in times of need.
Rem I think somebody was saying just now that eating the flesh of the Son of man and drinking His blood is habitual?
FER Yes. You never get out of the sense, and should not, of the grace which has been expressed in the death of Christ. I want to have my soul kept in that as long as I am down here. Another thing comes in, and that is, that the One who died is really living at the right hand of God. The practical result is that we can go boldly to the throne of grace to obtain mercy and find grace to help.
Ques Will you give us a few practical hints as to how verse 38 of chapter 7 can be true of us?
FER I do not know, except that it can only come to pass through the soul taking up and entering into every interest of God which belongs to the earth, and seeing that all is secured in Christ in glory. My citizenship [p. 102] is in heaven — that is the idea of it to me. It is all centred in Christ. Believing on Christ in John’s gospel means believing on Christ to the exclusion of everything else. I have faith in Christ and have faith in nobody else, so that you turn to Christ before friends. They may be good enough, but I have faith in nobody but Christ.
Ques Was there anything in the Lord saying this at the feast?
FER Yes. Chapters 6 and 7 cover the entire ground of the feast. Chapter 6 is the passover, chapter 7 is the feast of tabernacles; and He shows that what would come in connection with Himself would entirely surpass the feasts. You get the flesh and blood of the Son of man in chapter 6 in contrast to the passover. In chapter 7 what the Spirit would do in connection with the glorified Christ surpasses the feast of tabernacles.
The two chapters cover the entire ground of the feasts. The feasts began with the passover and ended with the feast of tabernacles. What answers to the feast of tabernacles is the fact that Jesus is glorified. It is not that you have all the interests of God brought to pass upon the earth, but you have them secured in Christ in heaven. So that if we had a sense of what God was in Christ, we should not want anything. “Out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water”. It is not a point of what He has for us, but what He has for God. It is glory to God by us.
Ques Is that the object of priesthood — that we might be brought into these things?
FER Well, I think that the object of priesthood is that you may never lose the sense of grace.
Ques These truths that you have been bringing before us should not make the christian idle?
FER I think we should benefit those we come in contact with very much more, because out of my belly should flow living waters. It ought to be an exercise to everybody that he should be in this world beneficially, he ought not to stagnate. There is something for everyone to do — a man may show mercy with cheerfulness.
[p. 103] Ques Is it the same as being the salt of the earth?
FER Yes, quite so. It is a very great comfort to me to think that there is a future for the earth and that there will be an accomplishment of everything that is for God.
Ques Is that the sum and substance of our hope — that all God’s interests for the earth are centred in Christ?
FER Yes, and the fact of it is “The Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come”. The more we comprehend that everything is bound up in Christ, the more evangelistic we should be down here.
Ques What would you say is being ‘evangelistic’?
FER To bring before men’s minds the head. “The head of every man is Christ”. All evangelisation is summed up in that.
Rem We generally present Christ as Saviour.
FER I do not think that goes quite far enough, because you want to present Him as head, that bringing in the idea of living water.
Ques How would you explain to me that Christ is the “head of every man”?
FER “Thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day; and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations”. He is the head of every man and repentance and forgiveness of sins is to be preached among all nations.
Ques What is “among all nations”?
FER I do not know except what it says. It is put in an abstract kind of way, so that anybody can take it up.
Ques Is it not the work of the Spirit of God to form Christ in us?
FER Yes, I think so. It is the well of water springing up into everlasting life. The Spirit of Christ works in us attachment to Christ, and deliverance from the world. Ishmael goes out and Christ comes in. It is only [p. 104] in that way that you make any progress. You get the appreciation of Christ and that produces attachment to Christ.
Ques Would you say that the effect would be, that we should be more Christ-like in our ways?
FER No doubt it would result in that, but the first thing is that we should answer to the mind of God, and I have no doubt whatever that Christ should be seen in us.
Ques “I will not leave you orphans, I am coming to you”. He comes to us and we go to Him. Is that when we break bread?
FER He will only come to us on condition that we leave the world. That is the idea of the assembly to me — we leave the world and He comes to us. In that sense we are orphans, we find ourselves in that way in a sphere where divine affection flows.
Ques What is meant by the expression, ‘being prepared for the assembly?’ The question which arises in my mind is this: are you prepared for the fellowship of His death? That is the first great thing as to the preparation for the assembly, because if you accept the fellowship of His death, you will give up every interest here. Of course you are committed to His death in baptism; but the fellowship of His death is that you will give up every interest here — for Christ has no interest here now.
Ques Is not that the great idea of eternal life?
FER Yes, it is out of death into life. So far as my experience goes, it does not seem that people are so particularly eager to surrender every interest on earth. That is what fellowship with the death of Christ is.
Ques Do you think that we find very few ‘crucified men’?
FER I do not think a very great many enter into it. That man would have no interest here. He has accepted what you may call an ignominious death; and one who takes sides with the Lord would have to go [p. 105] into death. If a man does not accept the death of Christ, he does not reach Christ where He is.
Ques What is the difference between ‘dying daily’, and being dead with Christ?
FER They are two entirely different things. ‘Dying daily’ was that he was daily exposed to death at the hand of man, but ‘The fellowship of His death’ is the state of the christian’s mind — the mind of the christian is in accord with the death of Christ.