COMPARISON OF THE EPISTLES - (CONTINUED)
COMPARISON OF THE EPISTLES — (CONTINUED)
FER In this epistle we enter on ground different from that which we have been considering. One thing that comes out prominently is the work of God in connection with the accomplishment of His purpose, and this is carried on in Ephesians. It has often been noticed that what you get here corresponds with the other side of Jordan — the promised land. You enter on the ground of purpose. In that connection you get the “body” — not simply the new covenant or reconciliation.
Ques Are the ministries of the new covenant and of reconciliation both supposed in this epistle?
FER I think so; both are referred to in the beginning. The point is this, that in chapter 2 you are brought into association with Christ and that by the work of God; but association with Christ must be the other side of Jordan — that is quite evident.... In Colossians it is not simply the moral idea of Christ as Head of every man, but as Head of all principality and power. That is the way He is brought in, and then, being Head of all principality and power, He is Head to the body.
Ques Is there any difference between counsel and purpose?
FER Not that I know of. Counsel and purpose, I suspect, are pretty much one in meaning.
Ques Did you say that before you can apprehend Colossians and Ephesians, you must apprehend what “a man in Christ” is?
FER I think so — for this reason, you cannot take the responsible man the other side of Jordan. “A man in Christ” belongs to the other side of Jordan, and is in association with Christ.
Ques In how many spheres do we see Christ [p. 317] as Head?
FER In two, as far as I understand it. He is the Head of every man, and He is Head of all principality and power, and it is as being the latter that He is Head to the church. Scripture connects them in that way. “Head of all principality and power” is the fulfilment of Psalm 8, but the church does not exactly come in there. Here the church is His body.
Ques What does ‘Head’ convey to you?
FER Pre-eminence.
Ques. Not direction too?
FER Yes, but chiefly pre-eminence. All takes its character from the Head — as the woman takes character from the man.
Ques Is there any difference between “head of the body”, and ‘head to the body’?
FER I do not know at all. I had not thought of it.
Ques In what sense is the head of Christ God?
FER That is Corinthians. The Son of God is become Man, and as having taken that place, God is “the head of Christ”.
Rem It is the position He has taken in grace.
FER Quite so. The husband is head of the wife. In the House of Commons, the Speaker is head of the House, and gives character to the House. He is not lord to the House — the sovereign would be that.
Ques Is it the work of God that makes you capable of entering into His purpose?
FER In order to enter into His purpose you must have a certain preparation. All the work of God consists in the accomplishment of His purpose. The work of God in regard to Christ, in raising Him from the dead, was the beginning, and it is continued in us to bring us into association with Christ risen. That is where the truth of the body comes in.
Ques Is baptism brought in to shew us the end of the responsible man?
FER I think it is, “buried with him in baptism”. You have to come back to baptism — the burial of the [p. 318] flesh. The point is, you are risen with Him, and have come into the reality of baptism.
Ques It is not individual in Colossians, is it?
FER It is to bring us into what is collective or corporate.
Ques Is “a man in Christ” individual?
FER That is individual. In Colossians it is “Christ in you” — not simply in one person. You cannot limit it to individuals — it brings in the corporate thought.
Ques Is “Christ in you” by the work of God in the souls of the christian company?
FER I think so. It is the pledge of glory — Christ being in us.
Ques And “the hope which is laid up for you in heaven” — what is that?
FER I do not know whether it refers to the inheritance or not.
Rem I take it that it stands in contrast with what the Jews had on earth. The gentiles had no inheritance on the earth. What they had was laid up for them in heaven.
Ques What is the difference between ‘raised’ and ‘quickened’ with Christ?
FER It is important to understand the force of Christ risen. Resurrection is not a mere fact, it is a divine beginning. It is the witness which God has given to the whole world, but it is also the beginning of God’s purpose.... Christ is the beginning, the First-born from the dead, the starting-point of God’s purpose. Everything comes to a close in death down here, and the starting-point of God’s purpose is the resurrection of Christ.
Rem So what is actually true of Him becomes spiritually true of you.
FER Exactly.... It is as Head of all principality and power that He is Head of the church.
Rem You get it in figure [p. 319] in Adam.
FER Yes. God set him over all the works of His hands, and then made him head to the woman. The practical point of that is that the church comes into the inheritance because He is the Head. It is the accomplishment of Psalm 8 with the additional thought that He is Head of the church, to bring the body into the inheritance. The body and the Head involve the truth of the bride, and the great point in connection with the bride is that she shares the inheritance of the Bridegroom. The bride is left here as “espoused ... as a chaste virgin to Christ”, to have no interests of her own, but to be identified with Christ’s interests, and then she shares the inheritance. This inheritance is brought out in Ephesians 1 — “In whom also we have obtained an inheritance”.
Ques What do you understand by “principality and power”?
FER Everything is put under Christ. I do not suppose principalities and powers will be entirely abolished, but all come under Christ in the millennium. God will allow the kingdoms of this world to abide, but all are to be subject to Christ. ‘Kings shall fall down before him’. Christ comes, and everything is put under Him, and takes its character from Him. There will be thrones and dominions, but all will be subject to Him.
Ques Do you exclude the idea of deriving from the Head, in speaking of Christ as Head of the assembly?
FER No. The assembly derives from Christ, as the wife gets her character from the husband.
Ques What is “not holding the Head”?
FER Not deriving from Christ.
Ques What is the leading difference between Colossians and Ephesians?
FER You get the body in Colossians, but in Ephesians the great thought is the glory of God in the church. In Colossians it is association with Christ — a worshipping company in association with the Head, while Ephesians rises to the glory of God in the church [p. 320] throughout all ages. Colossians is on the line of going in, while Ephesians is on the line of coming out. The former gives us the ground of divine purpose, and there is the apprehension of Christ as the beginning, the First-born from among the dead, and by the work of God we are brought into association with Him. The Spirit of God hides Himself, as it were, behind His work. It is of importance to distinguish between epistles on moral ground and those of divine purpose. In the latter you get the work of God — while there is not much of this in epistles such as Romans and Corinthians. In Colossians, the work of God gives effect to His purpose.
Rem There is strong similarity between Colossians and Ephesians.
FER Because they are on the ground of divine purpose. You must go in before you can come out — i.e., you must have the body going in to appreciate what is inside before you can have the vessel of God coming out “having the glory of God”.
Ques Is the thought of crossing Jordan in Ephesians?
FER No, because Ephesians is limited almost exclusively to the work of God. The saints are looked at as being in, so that eventually they may come out.
Ques What is meant by ‘going in’?
FER To accept a place with God, according to what God has given you. A man cannot go in to God unless he is called. Even Christ was called to be High Priest. Man cannot go in to God except as God chooses.
Rem That calling reaches every christian, or is supposed to.
FER Yes, and the pleasure of God is to work it in you.
Ques What is the importance of saying, “That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith”? Ephesians 3: 17.
FER Because it is the greatest thing come to pass down here. It indicates to me that I have to surrender every interest attached to man here, so that I may have [p. 321] all the range of interests attached to Christ. Faith is the apprehension of the mind of God. You are “risen with him through the faith of the operation of God”. Putting off the old and putting on the new is a question of spiritual power.
Ques What does that involve?
FER That in practice and ways you glorify God.
Ques. How do we reach it?
FER You are risen with Christ. It is there for everyone. It is God’s mind, and therefore, as far as I apprehend it, it is all ready for anyone if they are ready to take it up. It was just as much God’s purpose to bring Israel through Jordan as through the Red Sea.
It is God’s pleasure that you should have Christ dwelling in your heart by faith. Then you come out after the character of God, because you have gone in.
Ques Is every one that is risen with Christ quickened?
FER Yes, you must be capable by the work of God. No one can take up that kind of position except as they are capable. When the Lord comes, we shall be quickened then, we shall be capable then, but we are capable even now by spiritual affection, so that there is such a thing as association with Christ in spiritual affection at the present time.
Rem It is the true status of the assembly.
FER Yes, I think so. It comes out in John 20. “Go to my brethren”, etc.
Ques Is the purpose of God true of every believer?
FER It is all for them; it is His pleasure, but they will not enter into it except in view of His work in them. But the point is that we hinder it. It is like hustling along an unwilling man; he catches at this and that to hinder his being carried along. So we catch at things around us and hinder our progress and prevent the Spirit of God getting us along.
Ques What did you mean by ‘capable’ just now?
FER Well, you are capable as a father, capable as [p. 322] a husband, or in any other relationship. You have affection suitable to your relationships. Spiritual affections are the result of God’s work in you, the evidence of the quickening power of God. You cannot understand association with Christ unless there are affections akin to Christ. We ought to have intelligence, too, because we are risen with Him by faith. I think a person with affection is an intelligent person; the real way to intelligence is through affection.
Rem You are conducted to Isaac.
FER Yes.
Ques Could there be the apprehension of the presence of Christ in the midst of His people apart from association with Him?
FER There may be the faith of His presence, but not very much of the consciousness of it. This is through affection. People may come together in the faith of His presence, but the consciousness of it is another thing.
Rem That is where ‘capability’ comes in.
FER Yes. The great difficulty is that people are so unwilling to be carried on. God is willing to carry you on.
Rem “Wilt thou go with this man?”
FER Yes, that is the thing.
Ques Are there differences in the apprehension of Christ in the midst?
FER There is very little idea of Christ in the midst of the assembly.
Ques Would it not be necessary to be in the apprehension of being risen with Christ in order to apprehend His presence?
FER You cannot bring Christ this side. If you are to enter at all into the thought of the assembly, you must know Christ as on the other side of death — you must go to Him.
Ques Is not that the thought of John 20, where He says, as it were, ‘I cannot come with you, you must come to me’?
[p. 323] FER Exactly. He does not meet us here, He comes to us on God’s platform, and that is why you get the thought of being “risen with him” in this chapter. He may come to a person sympathetically, when under pressure, but “I will come to you” (John 14) I connect with the assembly. I can understand that where it says “I will come in unto him and sup with him, and he with me”, the Lord comes to me sympathetically, but in His coming to the company, it is to sing praise there. You find the church in John as to its character. Many miss the moral idea because they are looking for the term, and do not find it.
Ques Which is greater, Colossians or Ephesians, going in or coming out?
FER Well, I think the glory of God set forth in the church. It is wonderful to come out to set forth His glory.
Rem We cannot be coming out without first going in.
FER No. It is all according to His glory, or you could not have the glory of God. All is the work of God — the flesh is excluded. You come out in the new man, and your walk is consistent with that. The new man is what is “after God is created in righteousness and true holiness”. If I have been in to God as a worshipper, I do not want to falsify the character of God — I want to come out in the character of God.
Ques Do you get the coming out in Ephesians 5 — “Be ye therefore imitators of God”?
FER Yes — that is coming out.
Rem If that were so, then a man in business would make the assembly his chief interest. The interests of Christ in the church would be above those of his family or business. Young christians can make the assembly their first interest. It is an immense thought for us that, even if we are only a few and in weakness, we can gather together, and can make the assembly our chief interest.
Rem Business seems [p. 324] to be slavery.
FER You have to take up things for an honest living, but the thing is you are not to be wholly taken up with them. People so often go beyond — they are not content with food and raiment, and so they entangle themselves in bonds from which it is very difficult to get free.
Rem It is a great relief to be able to turn away, after your business is over, to what you love — to Christ and the assembly. It is a great thing to stick to the meetings of the assembly, and so keep in touch with the things of Christ. It is the greatest refreshment.
FER The assembly is where we ought to find rest. There is no business coming in there — it is the true rest in association with Christ.