THE SANCTUARY (1)
THE SANCTUARY (1)
FER I think God has found a way by which He may dwell: Christ has prepared a house for Him. We have our part in that, but it is not the purpose of God in it; the purpose of God in it in regard to us is to bring us into the sanctuary. There is great gain in being brought to the house of God, but His purpose is to bring us to the sanctuary; you are brought to the sanctuary when you are prepared for it.
DLH Is not the house a kind of means to an end?
FER Yes, God dwells to make Himself known. It is not only that He may be revealed; He was revealed before the house was here at all. God was first revealed, then He establishes the house that He may be known by those in the house. You get no divine teaching until you are brought to the house.
WB When is a man brought there?
FER When he apprehends that God dwells here by the Spirit.
WB How do you come to apprehend that?
FER By faith. A man accepts testimony from God, but that is not what I call divine teaching. He accepts the testimony and receives the Holy Spirit, then it is divine teaching begins. If a man receives the Spirit he has come to the house of God.
WJ By the sanctuary, do you mean the privilege of the house?
FER Not quite, the sanctuary is something within. The house is one idea, and the sanctuary another; how far they will be co-extensive in the eternal state I could not say. The gospel is really God’s testimony. When you accept that you are brought to His house, in order to come under teaching which is divine. That is in principle the new covenant; you get the new covenant within the [p. 2] house, and it means divine teaching. The new covenant does not belong to the sanctuary, but it forms you for it.
DLH I had thought that covenant is that God instructs us as to His intention.
FER He instructs us not in His mind, but in Himself and hence it is said, “All shall know me, from the least to the greatest”.
THB Is that the limit of the teaching?
FER The only limit is God Himself; because He is the Teacher. We do not strictly come under the covenant, but we must come under the principles of it, that is divine teaching, so the apostle says to the Thessalonians, “Ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another”, that is the effect of the love of God.
FC So in Romans 5, we have what is presented in testimony, and then teaching.
FER I think so, but you get the teaching even in chapter 5: “the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts”, verse 5, it begins there.
WB I thought that if any man learned any truth at all either about God, or himself, it was by divine teaching he learned it. Suppose I have learnt my state of guilt and sin, is it not divine teaching?
FER That is not what I should call divine teaching. Divine teaching is leading you into the light of God. The man who knows God best, knows himself best. New birth is not divine teaching, but it is divine operation. You cannot speak of divine teaching until the Holy Spirit is received.
Ques When shall they all be taught of God?
FER It is the great point in the new covenant that people are taught of God.
JB What is “no man cometh unto the Father, but by me” John 14: 6?
FER Coming to the Father is coming to Christ really for light. All the light of God is in Christ. He was speaking to the Jews at the time, and no one came to Him except the Father drew him. It is akin to Matthew 11: 28 “[p. 3] Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden”.
JSA The work of the Spirit is not the same as the teaching of the Spirit?
FER New birth is the work of the Spirit, but it is not the teaching of the Spirit. The object of coming to Christ is to be brought into rest by Christ revealing the Father. You come to Christ to be taught.
JB “Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me”. John 6: 45. Is not the Father the Teacher there?
FER God is the Teacher, but God draws to Christ that you may come under divine teaching. I am inclined to doubt if the Father’s drawing to Christ is in itself divine teaching.
AC Has He not some instruction about Christ to give to the soul that feels its need?
FER You come to Christ to get living water, then it is you get teaching. You could not come under divine teaching until you get living water.
AC How do you know the living water is there?
FER You get it, it is not a question of knowing it is there, but if you do come to Christ you get living water. You are attracted by the operation of God, by the testimony, but the soul comes to Christ and receives from Him the gift of living water.
AC What is the difference between testimony and teaching?
FER The reception of the testimony is one thing, and teaching quite another. You must begin by the receiving of the testimony: faith must accept the testimony. God has set forth His testimony, and the first relation of the soul with God is the acceptance of His testimony. That is different from teaching, the idea of which I get from John’s epistle: “Ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things, ... and ye need not that any man teach you,” (1 John 2: 20, 27), and in the last chapter the Spirit is the witness: “He [p. 4] that believeth ... hath the witness in himself”
WB Where does the gift of the teacher come in?
FER Oh, but that is not the divine Teacher. There is the gift of the teacher as well as the evangelist. If you are lecturing, or if I am lecturing I am sure I have no idea that anybody is taught by me. One may be used of God to point things out perhaps to people, but pointing things out to me does not teach me. The Spirit uses me in a measure to keep the mind of God under the attention of the saints, but they do not learn from me. What I present to them may be used to exercise them, and if they are exercised they may get something out of it, because all teaching is the fruit of exercise. There are two elements with teaching: moral and intelligent, and you want both. The moral teaching is by the Spirit; the Spirit of God leads you in a way to the Scriptures, and you get intelligence in that way, but the great point is moral teaching. The Spirit enlightens you in the mind of God, but God alone can teach Himself to you.
DLH What we want is to be exponents of the things about which we are enlightened.
FER I am perfectly sure of this that our enlightenment has gone a long way beyond our knowledge of God. It has been so with myself. I have put things out far beyond my moral stature. Take one single instance, and that is Mr. Darby: I never found a man who had the same intelligence in the mind of God, and power to apply it as he. Morally there was the stature of the man, and the intelligence corresponded to it. He was specially and divinely taught in the knowledge of God, and hence he acquired great intelligence in the mind of God.
The Spirit begins with righteousness and then you get to holiness in that way. You are led on and instructed. The moment you come to holiness you must bring in love. Righteousness connects itself with grace, and holiness with love. You get the knowledge of these things by the Spirit of God bringing your soul into direct contact with [p. 5] God Himself.
JSO What about the gifts in Ephesians 4, do you separate that from divine teaching?
FER I would in a way; there it is that the body may be built up, that instead of being children and tossed about with every kind of doctrine, they might be able to stand as men. That is all connected with intelligence. It is divine intelligence but you cannot get divine intelligence except by the knowledge of God morally. What man wants is moral backbone, and then he gets divine intelligence, the two go together. I think if you examine the passage in Ephesians 4, it is intelligent growth, not moral. Do you remember an expression of Mr. Darby’s? It used to puzzle me a good deal: he said that in divine things you learned the words by the things, and if you have not got the things you cannot learn the words.
JSO I suppose the only revelation of God we have is in the scriptures?
FER Christ was the revelation of God whether the scriptures were there, or not.
JSO But still Scripture is the inspired volume.
FER You have an inspired record, but the revelation of God was complete, even before the Holy Spirit came. I would not like anyone to think that I make little of the scriptures, but the real witness of Christ is the Holy Spirit: “When the Comforter is come ... he shall testify of me”.
JB Was there any divine teaching in the past dispensation?
FER Yes, in anticipation of what has come to pass now. No one has a single bit of light until the entrance of God’s testimony.
JB Teaching is on the line of love, not light.
FER Quite so, God begins by enlightening.
W “That I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended”, is that divine intelligence?
FER I think it is more apprehension of mind. The first thing that God works in a man is desire, and then He satisfies it. It is a wonderful thing to me what [p. 6] you find in Psalm 132, the Spirit of God produces desires in David, and then satisfies those desires.
JSO Have the labourers no part at all in forming the stature of the christian?
FER In a way; for instance, I have had thankfulness expressed for something I have put out, by those who have been helped by it, and I think in that way, the teacher gets the credit of it.
JSO There is a very real link formed in that way, between those ministering and those ministered to.
FER In John’s epistle there is the teaching in which he does not recognise man’s hand at all and there is the teaching of the Spirit of God which forms a person’s intelligence. A teacher may show you the mind of God, and it is an important service to have the mind of God expounded to me, that brings me into exercise so that I may get the good of it.
DLH How did this discussion begin?
FER It began with the house of God, the place of divine teaching. The object of divine teaching is to bring us to the sanctuary. Very few people know the sanctuary because they are not prepared for it, and they feel it. The sanctuary is where God’s glory rests.
DLH With regard to the sanctuary, Mr. Darby’s observation is very important, that unless you know the thing you cannot understand the word.
FER It is a great thing to get an idea of the sanctuary. It is certain to me that the love of God cannot rest in the house of God as it is now, but there is a spot in the house where it can rest; you could not touch the sanctuary except by the house.
WB Everyone who has received the Spirit has touched the house.
FER Teaching and discipline are going on in the house. That is not love resting, but there is a spot where God’s love can rest, because everything is according to His glory. The great point for us is to reach that spot, but in order for us to reach it everything depends upon [p. 7] our knowledge. We ought to grow in the knowledge of God.
JSO But you do not make little of gift?
FER Oh no, I make a good deal of gift; I should not make light of it. If a man gets a ministry from the Lord, he has to fulfil it.
DLH That passage quoted in Ephesians 4, really shows that the teaching comes from Christ, “He ascended up on high ... and gave gifts”, it speaks of the present care of the Head for the body.
FER Yes, and the gifts are connected with the forming of the saints in the divine nature and intelligence — you want both.
JSO Does the Spirit of God work in connection with their being formed in the divine nature?
FER I am certain He does.
JB No servant could form them in it.
FER No, nor does any servant have the idea that he can really teach as the Spirit of God.
Ques In what sense does the Spirit work in the teacher?
FER The Spirit produces very great exercise and that kind of thing. Let anybody try their hand at it and see the terrific conflict it is all along. You find that every influence is opposed to you, or rather to Christ I should say. Every influence is opposed to spiritual progress, hence if you try to maintain the mind of God before the saints, and are really concerned at all that they should make advance in the mind of God, you will find what a terrible power there is against it.
Ques Why do you speak of the house and the sanctuary in connection with this chapter?
FER The object of the chapter is to prepare you for the sanctuary; we have the teaching and terms of it in Hebrews, but in Colossians we have the substance. It is written to the gentiles. You have to recognise your place as risen with Him. You are priests, the priestly company, and then you are quickened with Him, so [p. 8] that you really have the antitype of Aaron and his sons substantially, not in terms. Jordan lies between the house and the sanctuary. You only get to the sanctuary through death and resurrection. As risen with Christ you are outside every order of man down here. A risen man is of a new order. It may be the same identity, but he is of a new order. It is not only that you are risen with Him, but you are quickened with Him, and thus participate in His life and you are qualified for the sanctuary. Colossians and Hebrews run together pretty much. Colossians brings you over Jordan to Gilgal. Risen and quickened with Christ corresponds to Hebrews 10. “By the which will we are sanctified”, you are in association with the High Priest for the service of the sanctuary. He is the true Aaron and the Aaronic family are those who are risen and quickened with Him.
THB You do not get the assembly in Colossians?
FER You get the Head and the body and that is in connection with the sanctuary.
JSO And philosophy and the like, would greatly hinder.
FER I would not like to offend anyone, but to me science and philosophy are all rubbish the moment you look at them from the moral point of view. What good will they be when you come to die? When you get above you will understand things better than men ever do by science down here.